Ed, thanks for primer info will give them a try in this 20ga I am loading for slug hunting.Jeffrey

ed,
call down to detroit, with the print, and have the hammers edm'ed out

6 probably costs the same as 20

jeffe

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
nortman...

jeffeosso is working on that project named the 50 a.r. do a search

i missed this one..

here ya go

Hot Damn- Test Results of 4 plastic cases.
Rem high base 3" case, with 600 gr
Dixie hardened slug. Roll crimped with
crimper in drill press. All 4 loaded with
90 gr of 4759. We have a winner.
Average velocity of 4 -- 1938 fps
Average pressure of 4 -- 14, 575 psi.
tested with transducer test ing setup,
in 30 inch barrel,In my 24" NEF I got 1800+.
Cases fell out of his test chamber like they did out of my NEF.And with some cases I can get in 95gr, that I figured with my math would
have 15k psi.So my math and developement is
OK.And 4800 ft lbs, thats neat with plastic.
Tom says this load will do in any gun that handles the 2 oz factory magnum goose loads
that test about 13,600 to 14,000.And 4759
will give slower time to peak pressure, thus
will be easier on cases than magnum goose loads
or the hot factory Buckhamer slug loads
I fired, that expanded cases as much or more
tham our 4759 loads.Ed

Ed, Where can I get longer barrel for my NEF 20ga Ultra Heavy Slug say 28-30" or so. Shot the loads I told you about yesterday went
KA-Boom flame about 3 feet plus, recoil manageable unspent powder interupted chrony readings error reported. Will have to put screen in front of chrony to protect it on next outing. Was able to group three shots under 2" about 6" high over factory 3" at 100yds.
Working with 10 brass case so have to reload and head out when snow lets up.
Thanks again for info...Jeffrey

Jeffrey- The poor mans 600 nitro is humming along I see. Lets us know what chrono
says when you get it screened.
Ultra barrels can be had in super strong alloy
with pivot put on as good as factory does it
same big diameter for $480...Too much I feel.
I sure would like mine with a 32 inch
barrel.That is good groups you have with
those sabots. 300 yard shotgun for sure.ED.

Buckhammer 3 "factory loads are 15k psi.
A 2.75 inch case with 80 gr of 4759, a thin card wad,
a 3/8 cushion lubed felt wad, when crimped is about
2.4 inches long, with 600gr Dixie slug. Based on
pressures recorded in previous post for 3 inch case
and 90gr of 4759, they will run about 13,400 psi,
and work through modern guns.Another load tested with
same bullet, 65gr of 4759, tested at same place
was 11,800 psi and 1640 fps. So you don't have
to put in my max loads, but go down a
little and use in modern guns that
are lighter than NEF so they don't kick so bad.But yet
you can get fairly good energy levels for big game, 3300
to 4000 ft lbs of energy.Ed

Ed, you say I can get a longer barrel?? Where??
Hope to shoot in the am for speeds as well distance with some boys at our local range. Sure get some strange looks when I hold up a 3.5" brass cartridge for them gaze at. Will post results when I can from shoot..Jeffrey

Jeffrey--- www.ottllc.com
is the place I contacted if
i rember right.Ed

ed...have you thought about the savage bolt action 3" 12 ga. rifled slugmaster???

Hey Ed,

I once owned a Niedner Borchardt in 25 fl Krag made about 1906 or so. Have you considered a striker block conversion ala Borchardt for the Wickliffe 76 1/2 to replace the hammer? The Niedner also had double set triggers, and a novel way to deal with no safety. He took the cocking piece (knob) off of a Krag or Springfield, and fitted it to the Borchardt striker that goes thru the hole in the rear of the breech block (IIRC). It still cocked the action, but you had a little cross-pin that could be pushed out to block the striker's movement. You could also hold the knob and drop it, as you do a Krag or Springfield to uncock/drop the hammer. A sort-of non-automatic safety bar.

Just thinking...

Rich

quote...

Blued barreled action, free-floating and button-rifled barrel, internal magazine, controlled round feed bolt with oversized bolt handle, and swivel studs.

http://www.savagearms.com/210f.htm

wow! a crf 12 ga.!

what evils can we do to this action it is a ture dg rifle...

Boom-The Savage is what I used for
our long case with a long heavy
barrel. I think that the 4759 loads
would do in the original 3" chamber and
24" barrel.
Idaho that is something I will look at.
Gun Parts may have those parts. Ed

so ed...with this $400 slug gun, what can it do unmodified under 100 lbs of recoil and not destroy the gun???

it could be the poor mans 700 nitro...

It'll do 17-1800 fps with 24 in barrel.
70 t0 90gr of 4759 with 600gr slug,
Or the hammerhead slugs.Ed

Boomie,

I have had one about five or six years now, maybe longer. Lyman makes one great answer for a 12gaFH, a bullet mould called the Sabot Shocker in 12 and 20 gauge. It looks like a giant wasp-waisted flatheaded airgun pellet.
It is designed to be shot in a plastic 1 1/8oz shot cup. You just start tipping the powder can a bit farther and longer, until you run out of ass in your pants or you get spooky pressure signs. For me, that was about 1950fps and 2.5-3" 5-shot groups at 100 yds. The 12ga weighs 530gr out of 20:1 alloy, almost exactly one and one-eighths of an ounce. I just cut the petals of the shotcup to projectile length and kept going. The recoil keeps most of us out of trouble...at a certain point, self-preservation kicks in. It is the ultimate budget big bore rifle.

Rich

Some research. Anyone with a Mauser converted
to 12ga shotgun can fire our 4759 loads.
One was the GEHA, other REMO. The locking lug for bolt is the rear safety lug and if you wanted an extra lug do an Ed on the bolt
handle base to make contact between bolt handle and bolt handle recess.They are not long enough
for our full length case, but came with 2 3/4"
chamber and magazine.Were 2 shot large ring
converted military mausers.Studying this gun lead me to the idea that a fancy 12ga with 3" chamber could be made by the same thing that Germans did to the Mauser to make GEHA. Just use
a S&L, Colt Sauer, etc, with rear locking lugs.
Grind out inside diameter of action from rear reciever forward so 12ga case will feed, Rear of bolt will still center ok as lugs and metal
are there. The silver solder combination guide extension to support 12ga case on the left side
of bolt, and put extractor on right side.
Like a Sako or whatever.Face off the recess on front off bolt flat, Put in 12ga barrel with chamfers to clear extractor.A 788 Rem
may work, at least with a 2.75" case.
For repeater action, Open mag
well to hold a single stack of 1 or 2
12ga cases.Fancy gunwrighters badmouthed
the GEHA, but geese hunters just loved them,
as they handled heavy loads fine. Ed.

I have also found that the rear locking lug
idea will work with an Enfield, and it would
long enough for our long case with little
work. Work long case as singleshot.
Work as single stack repeater with 3" 12ga.
The bolt handle base would be one lug, and is quite large, which would be stronger than
goose guns built same way.The
left locking lug woud get a bite out on
its end if front was bored out to .900,
tp allow feeding of 12ga case.
But I found a way to add extra lug in the back by opening sight recess that is in rear bridge
down through to bolt raceway, mill groove on left for lug to turn into that
opening and mill square recess into bolt and add lug on left.Result 2.5 lugs, with enough
strength to hold 30k plus loads easily.
Ream out front of action. Barrel threads are
as big as Savage, little more than Mauser.
Face off front of bolt flat.Add pin in ejector
cutout to support case opposite extractor.
The original lugs will guide for feeding.
Screw in heavy 12ga rifled barrel.By the way
would work for 700NE,My 700HE by keeping
pressures moderate. Could handle 600Ne,
full pressure. Ed

And of course for Jeff here is picture
of the 700H 3.25" on an Enfield bolt.
It has support guide that I put in left lug
groove.And a P-14 extractor on right side
recut for bigger. Case is 3.25", same belt
and base as long case, but rim is .770
instead of .790.......... I gonna do one
as I have 2 Enfields extra. Ream out front of
action to .820, and that still allows top
60% of lugs to seat.If you did it in 12ga there
would be less lugs making contact,
but still a good contact. And I will have huge bolt handle base as a lug and have
4th lug back underside of the bolt.
Straighten bolt handle like my other Enfields,
which makes them an inch longer. Will get
1 & 3/8 inch barrel 32" long.Will hold same pressures as Savage, like mild hunting
load of 1000gr at 2200 fps.ED

To use Enfield for 12ga cases, will
have to cut extractor out more,
than what I did for 700.
Other guns with rear lugs that would be
neat Mauser GEHA like conversions, would be
Champlin and Golden Eagle 7000. Hell to
give the French equal time............
now watch out........... you could use
a rear locking MAS.Its bolt is .800", a
tenth of an inch bigger than most
bolt actions. Best damn use for that
gun that man could conjur up.Ed

Checking Mossberg 12ga 695 bolt action,
And Maverick 95 12ga bolt action,Similiar
and both use bolt handle base as locking
lug. And they can have an extra rear
lug added like I just did on Enfield.
Waiting for barrel. Lapped all
lugs and even with front reamed out for bigger case the front lugs still contact even.
It will handle more pressure than
the Savage, with extra lugs in back.Ed

Here is picture of top part of the
first scale-up model, next to smaller
Wickliffe. It has 12GA FH round in feed
trough. It is aluminum just for a model.
It will handle 12GA FH, 700HE, 700NE, 600NE,
etc. Bottom of block is flat to set on
mill table to do the machining.Next machining
will be the hole and slot down through the
action for breech block and hammer to
slide up and down in.Its taken awhile to
get some tooling.I had none when we set up
vertical mill. Anyone with some surplus long
end mills and R8 tooling, holders,big drills
let me know. I need a bargain on some.Ed.

Ed is THE MAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Rich
DRSS

Ed just figured that if he and friends want
big, strong, nice, actions, we gotta design
and help make them. at reasonable cost. And
it'll do little stuff like 50cal, 600NE,
577NE, etc, so that should get interest
to a little higher level. Ed

Tested 2 fast stick powders, 4198 and 3031.
Both didn't ignite good with small primers
in plastic cases. One more I plan on trying
VV110, when I find some. It is bulkier
and slight chance may work like 4759. Ed.

Go Ed GO!

Just to let everyone know I tried the following.
Bertram cases - which take a large rifle primer, Federal 215m
I tried the following 3 fibre wads to crimp 585grn round ball in mouth or 2 fibre wads with glued in overshot card, both methods tried with loads, also used over powder cards.
RL 2400 60grns 3 out of 6 went off.
ADI 2205 50grns(will have to check the charge weight, maybe remembering wrong) 4 out of 19 went off all with delayed ignition the rest didn't fire.

Being so much shooting in Australia
is restricted to shotguns, some importer
could sell a boat load of 4759.
It is about perfection with 600 gr
hard slug in a 3" 12 ga. Some there are
starting to make rims and put them on
for our long brass case, but most would
like to power up the 12 gauges they have.
Maybe shooters there need to get after ADI
who ships powder to Hodgdon, who now owns
IMR, and get Hodgdon/IMR to get some 4759
going the other direction.We will call
Hodgdon also.Ed.

Karl plans on working with an
importer in Aust to get IMR4759 shipped
in. They need large order to get
it done. All you Aussie members interested
in hotrodding your 12ga get with him.
It is great feeling in just getting the right
powder, and nearly doubling the energy
of regular 12ga with plastic.Ed

Tested three 3.5" plastic cases with
100gr 4759, 600gr slug. Used .135 card wad,
a 1/2" and 1/4" felt wads. 1900+ fps
in 24" NEF barrel, same low pressure as
the 3" cases we tested. I have NEF
chamber lengthened for our longer
brass case. A nice long barrel we'd
have 2050 plus. Perfect ignition,
clean burning.Ed

Fired couple 3.5" cases with 90gr
4759 and 460 grains of buckshot,
14 number 1 buckshot.Fired in nef,
pattern huge due to rifling, even with
shotcup. They were going 2000 fps plus,
and went through 1/8 steel on end of
stand. Ignition perfect, extracted easy.
In smoothbore be real hairy load.Ed

Ed,
have you tried any of the heavy bullets in the plastic shells? heh, 900 at 1800fps!!


jeffe

Jeff - Not yet in plastic. Probably
would get Greg's 870 gr to 1500 in
3.5" case. Using a little less 4759,
in NEF, to keep pressures the same.
That's 4300 ft lbs.Ed

Ed,
was thinking, you know, there's some pretty heavy weight 12ga double shotguns out there.... and I bet I could beg rob to put the last couple inches of some slow twist on the end of a pair of barrels... i fould an excellent cab-sav lately, and I mean mind blowing, and I am certain I could help him find a case!!

jeffe

Jeff-I think the Sabala E-213 double
12ga super magnum we posted pics about and I
talked about earlier on this thread would
do 4759 loads. It has 3.5" chambers.I
wish I had one to test.Rottwell made a heavy
12ga double also, but they are hard to find
also.The 600 gr Dixies being hollowbase
would do fairly well in smoothbores.Ed.

Jeff- Doing research on O/U. Some have
etra locking mechanisms in the form of
top lugs or locking bolts; like Zoli,
Beretta, SKB, etc, and would easily take
our 12ga FH thrust levels like NEF.
If the barrels could be made heavy enough.
Most now have barrels than can handle
4759 plastic loads. Wards imported a Zoli,
Ithaca imported SKB, Wea Orion is SKB,
Some American Arms & Fausti are Zoli.
Tristar and others are Beretta.There are
hundreds of O/U for sale on GB, Auction Arms,
GunsAmerica, many for just few hundred bucks,
and loaded with slugs designed for smooth
bores with about 70-80-90 gr 4759, be great
for hogs and deer. And most of these have
nice barrel length that Nef doesn't have.Ed.

Here is pictures of the breech, lever,
linkage, etc, set up on a block to
get the geometry for the model working
ok.And setup measurements to make the breech
hole in the action, in right place.Also used
this model to get hammer and trigger set
up to ride on the breech block. With
a strong hammer and trigger in the right
place in the guard. Ed

Looking very good ED. I'd get that action wire EDM'd once you get the geometry worked out.-Rob

Rob I'm checking on that.Expensive
as we're finding out.Investment
castic would be best but upfront
money is many tens of thousands. I
and two old machinists here can shape
the outside, drill first hole
though top for feed trough/barrel, and enlarge
and thread front for barrel, easy here.
Getting hole through for breechblock is
difficult, but we may have solved that also,
to be real easy here, by drilling large hole
taking out most of material, then use
Minuteman broach system to square corners.
Rest of parts are Wickecliffe and others.
If so maybe We(Tom,I, and friends) can do them........
reasonable.. Ed.

Found info an a double that would work
for making 12GA FH. It's a Spanish 10 ga
on an 8 ga frame that we think Stoeger and
maybe others imported years ago. It says
No. 6 HG on trigger guard. It is
engraved and hammerless It is over 2 & 1/2"
across outside of both barrels, chopperlump
barrel pivots, with heavy locking lugs,
and A purdey style third fastener.Top lever.
Barrels are big enough to use as monoblocks
to screw in heavy 12ga barrels, with same size
threads as my Savage and it being a huge action
could handle same loads as the Savage.Like
12-17,000 ft lbs. Ed.