quote:

Could be a competitor in the ugly gun thread:

Is that a matching sling...?? BEAUTIFUL!!!

Just finished prototyping the 209 primer adapter No.2. Looks great and won't come out on depriming. However, you loose the ability to switch to .50BMG primers. Adapter no. 1 lets the case be used with either primer, but it may come out on depriming. You will need lots of these adapters if that happens. Can make them from aluminum or brass and No.1 is a much simplier design than no.2. Fully automatable to produce in quantities. Maybe Macifej can get the price down below .25 cents each. Other downside is .50BMG brass needs some more alteration which will increase the case cost but its minimal and with >10 reloads /case once fireformed its probably quite cost effective.
My G-code bullet pgms will work with minor mods on any compatabile machine and Macifej or someone like him can use them to mass produce the bullets assuming there is enough demand. Its literally plug and play! I'm much more interested in the R&D of the 12GaFH ( especially debugging)and maybe ultimately in making reloading die sets and double rifles to be honest and while I can make any bullet design conceivable( in lots up to 1000), I'm not cost competative with a single spindle machine for mass production like Macifej is with his multispindle machines. BTW I am interested in making lathe bored bullet molds.-Rob

Rob - probably can make the primer adapters and the rims that cheap if the're was enough volume. At some point if you guys go commercial with this beasty, it might make sense to run two batches of say 10,000 cases each for both 35 & 209 primers.

Excellent.
Hope something can be worked out on mass production. I can't buy them all myself at 10,000 per pop!

Lathe-bored moulds:
A boattailed spitzer of .730" diameter and 1.375" OAL with grease-groove-driving bands for use with pure zinc or lead alloy?

Recoil: Some "estimations" of the subjective below.

5.0# 12Ga-3.5"
2.25 oz shot (984 grains) + 16-grain wad (est.) = 1000-grain projectile
41.5 grain Blue Dot powder charge
(Win. hull, Win. 209 primer, Win. WAA 12R wad)
1197 fps MV
pressure = 11,800 psi
(actual Load data from a Lyman manual)
Recoil:
123.9 ft-lbs
39.9 fps
The speed of recoil stings, though hardly excessive in ft-lbs.

11.5# 12GaFH NEF (hypothetical load, surely near reality)
1372-grain slug + 28-grain wad and card = 1400 grain projectile
15-grain Blue Dot + 180-grain H50BMG charges = 195 grains powder
1400 fps MV
Pressure: Low
Recoil:
228.3 ft-lbs
35.7 fps
ouch
24.35 fps of the recoil speed is attributed to bullet
11.39 fps to powder

Assume:

1. A good muzzle brake will knock about 1/3 off the perceived recoil of this load.

2. My brake will add about one pound of weight to the gun also, at the muzzle.

3. A lead toboggan might add 25 pounds to effective gun weight.

Same 12GaFH NEF-er load, at the bench with 1,2,3 assumptions applied:
Recoil:
48 ft-lbs
8 fps

Like I said, just an estimation.

Mac are you set up to export bullets to AUS
for Gibs and his compatriot, big bore nuts?
That is what we need is someone to export.

Here is pic of the first of our cases I put
primer bushings in. Center one has shotgun
primer, right one has large rifle primer.
Center one with shotgun primer was the easies
to do and work the best. I used it to test shorter
3" case loads while waiting for RMC brass couple
years ago.Ed

Exportus Noproblemus ...takes a little paperwork ...but easy enough.

Macifej- I have G-code for the Rims, threaded brass, Darwin bullets and soon the 209 adapters set up for Haas but could re-writin in just about anything you have in minutes! They all work but could easily be improved for speed. My machines have NEVER been crashed so that tells you I am at least competent to write this stuff. Roll it in Graphics and test it out yourself. Assuming your prices are as expected we could be good to go.
BTW hope to have chrono results on the 225GR. H50BMG load tomorrow with 1085 gr barss Darwins. made a new batch at .7301 which I think is optimum for the NEF's. Super looking bullets anyway!-Rob

An S&H-Nohbozo partnership.

Shnohbozo, LLC:

A partnership made in heaven, producing procucts from hell:
Sounds like life in general and business as usual,
and I am sure you will do better than
General Motors.

I flat enjoy doing then autocad and generating code. If S&H can do it cheaper, I'm all for it! the issue is demand. Neither jay or I want to waste our time on small orders.-Rob

I think I have my cost per cartridge case below $350 (barely) each as of today .....

I'll post a photo in cartridge collecting in a few minutes .....

$ 350 or &3.50?-Rob

Three Hundred and Fifty dollars each .....

Think I need to speed things up a little bit ....???

Will have the process automated by the end of the week and the cost will come back into line. That price was figuring my hourly rate for hand finishing cases.

Wow! I'm at $3.50 for a 12GaFGh case and I can engrave too! assume your talking 2 bore.No one else has one.-Rob

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
Wow! I'm at $3.50 for a 12GaFGh case and I can engrave too! assume your talking 2 bore.No one else has one.-Rob

I makes em with a steak knife on a pottery wheel...

Considering that a 700 H&H case (which is smaller than the 12GAFH) retails for about $20 each, I'd say you're working for free or operating a charity at $3.50 each...

Rob,
When did you get down to $3.50 per case?
Is there some misunderstanding here?
Or are you just pulling the leg of S&H?

There is no competition for SHNobozo currently.
Prices are whatever the market will bear.

You were previously charging $13.00 for each case,
consisting of
$10.00 for each engraved screw-on rim,
plus $3.00 for each milsurp 50BMG case with the rim turned off and threaded for the screw-on rim.
$13.00 is a more appropriate price for a 12GaFH case than $3.50.
That would be for a 2-piece kit of parts for the handloader from hell to assemble and fireform.

Add the 209 bushing and machining for the 3-piece kit, and maybe $16.66?

Surely some misunderstanding here, or starting outrageous to work toward the appropriate?

RMC 3.5" cases are about $8.00 each, in boxes of 10.

700 H&H cases at $20.00 each, have a slightly bigger rim and smaller overall length and volume than the 12GaFH.

The only hope for a $3.50-per 12GaFH case (or $6.66 each), ready to load and shoot,
might be Jamison International, LLC ...
If they could be interested in an order of what size?

RIP- I was talking about $3.50 for the threaded case only with the mods for 209 primers added( two more ops, but fast ones. All case mods done during the case turning/ threading pgm so only a small amount of extra time needed). Remember, I may not have huge capacity, but I do have minimal overhead. Not talking about the Rims, no change there. I was thinking simple No. 1 adapter bushings for .25 each. In retrospect I should have made that clear. Not trying to pull S&H's leg. I didnt know .700Ne brass was only $20.0/case. I thought it was more. Makes my stuff look down right cheap. Drawn 12GaFH brass would be super from any supplier. Yes , $6.66 should be the optimum price but discounts may be available on a per soul basis.-Rob

Well I went to the range today with my new Chrony Beta and got some numbers. Load was 225 gr of H50BMG, .50BMg primer and 1086 gr brass Darwin .7301. Used Ed's cases modified by Nohbozo llc.. With Chrony at 10ft, Shot 10 rds. Average Velocity was 1599 fps with a extreme range of 35 fps. ME calculates as 6167 ft-lbs! I was frankly hoping for a little more velocity but the results are what they are. Notably, my gun with its stock spring continues its streak of >75 rounds without a failure to fire the .50BMG primers. Recoil is totally manageable and accuracy was one ragged hole at 50 yrds Offhand. The Boom was very satisfying and the look on the faces of the folks at the range who rapidly approached was astonishment when I dropped one of those cases into the little NEF! Interestingly no one would take a shot with it even though I offered!-Rob

quote:

Interestingly no one would take a shot with it even though I offered!

1600 FPS is still moving right along...what's next...?? A move to RL25 or RL22 maybe...??

There is still PLENTY of room left in the case and 245gr of H50BMG should get close to 1700fps which should make 7000ft-lbs. That was my goal for the NEF. Yes to get more velocity we will have to move to faster powders and/or a borerider type bullet. In these big guns a bore rider with minimal engraving surface can by itself be good for 100fps. I think I'll design one and see how it works.-Rob

Hodgdons Retumbo is next fastest, then
VV170, then RL-25. I was able to get
280 gr of HBMG in our long case with a
shorter 730 gr Dixie slug. You should get
up to 260 gr easy with your slug. Ed

Rob,
Thanks for the data point!
Agrees with mine quite well.

Blue Dot & 209-primed RMC 3.5" case: 322 gr H20
CCI-35-primed Nohbozo 3.85" case: 335 gr H2O

Charge H50BMG (gr) >>> MV (fps) of 1086-gr Brass Darwin

RMC Case:

130 gr >>> 1094 fps
140 gr >>> 1155 fps
150 gr >>> 1220 fps
160 gr >>> 1315 fps
170 gr >>> 1377 fps
...
225 gr >>> 1592 fps : predicted
(average of 7.075 fps/grain for 130 to 170 grains)

Nohbozo case:

225 gr >>> 1599 fps (neglects 10 ft chrono distance, MV actually just over 1600 fps)
7.107 fps/gr

The graph is pretty well linear, might be just starting to get Nohbozo-efficient at 225 grains!

H50BMG is definitely expected to be more efficient with the heavier slugs, faster powder needed for lighter slugs.

My software won't handle such big numbers, maybe "sumbuddy who know" could use these values to calculate
pressures and predicted velocity for various powders in the Nohbozo case and 24" barreled NEF:

gross water capacity: 335 grains
bullet diameter: .729"
bullet weight: 1086 grains
bullet length: 1.375"
case length: 3.850"
Loaded COL: 4.225" (seated deep, on first cannelure)

"Sumbuddy who know" can predict best powder for 1085-grainer?

Meanwhile, I'll run the recoil numbers through the 'puter for an 11.5# rig.

Faster 12GaFH bore-rider?
Makes sense:
Faster horses.
Older whisky.
Younger women.
More money.

12GaFH Recoil:

11.5-pound gun
1085-grain bullet
225 grains of H50BMG
1600 fps MV

215.3 ft-lbs
34.7 fps: 21.57 fps from bullet, 13.14 fps from powder

More than 1/3 of the recoil is coming from the powder charge.
An efficient muzzle brake, like Rob's, might cut recoil a bunch:

140 ft-lbs
22 fps

If so, that is very tolerable recoil, quite gentle at such low recoil speed.

RIP- I'd agree with your math. Looks like 240 grs of H50BMG should make 1700fps, with the existing 1086gr Brass Darwin. I'm going to make a "double ended Borerider" by reducing the center driving band section to .710 and leaving the ends engaging the rifling at .7295
and molycoating the bullet. Probably will have to reduce the HP depth to keep the weight constant! Total rifling engagement surface will be significantly reduced! Bet that gives me another 50fps. Should be close to 100% load density as a added plus. I've fired 240gr loads before and recoil is stout at that level but its still a slow push and thus easy to roll with. I think I would be very satisfied with 1750fps with a 1086gr bullet for a ME of 7386 Ft-lbs.-Rob

Rob,
MV and powder charge data don't lie when arithmetic is correct.

Perceptive recoil experience is trickier.
Anyhoo, ft-lbs are at healthful levels and closer to 20 fps than 30 fps in the punch speed
with your braked 225-gr H50BMG load.
Less than 30 fps recoil speed makes me happy.
My Vais Brake ought to work at least as well as your brake, and it will add a pound of weight to my NEF-er,
at the muzzle,
12.5 lbs for mine then,
recoil velocity will be slower then.
Glad to hear the speedy bullet will have a HP, better for varmints and smaller game in most jurisdictions.

quote:

I think I would be very satisfied with 1750fps with a 1086gr bullet for a ME of 7386 Ft-lbs.-Rob

Better MD than all historical bore gun loads, even the 4 bore at full.

Sir Samuel White Baker will smile in his grave.

Jolly good show chaps.

Karl.

Given that the last 2 inches of my barrel are muzzel brake and losing critical gas pressure like crazy, My gun should be a slower than a gun with a full 24' barrel and muzzel brake. RIP your gun might meet the magic numbers easier than mine. Nevertheless, I think we are in total striking distance of the Goal! I do doubt these brakes are anywhere near 50% efficeient also. The recoil pulse is simply"SLOW" and very easy to roll with. Much easier in fact than a .50BMG rifle shooting the same amount of the same powder and a lighter bullet. FYI my std .50BMG load is a 750gr Amax over 225gr of H50BMG in a 26lb gun!! I'm using a scope too and so far no torque effect either. I think this project is really starting to come together!-Rob

MD, momentum density, I like that, Karl.
At five slugs to the pound, my NEF-er throws like a 5-bore but will beat a 4-bore.
It certainly does not throw like a girl!

Rob, I corrected my erroneous recoil reduction estimate to 1/3 reduction, due to the large powder charge passed sideways as gas at the brake.
The more H50BMG used, the more benefit from the brake, eh?

I designed a nice double borerider just ripe for molycoating and will make a few to see how they fly. Today I will also make some 240gr H50BMG loads and see if I can hit the magic 1700 plus fps numbers tomorrow. Basically anything over 7000 Ft-lbs will be just fine with me.-Rob

Rob,
That is a worthy goal for a Nohbozo load!
According to my abacus:

1086-grain Brass Darwin @ 1704 fps >>> 7001 fpe

1372-grain Lead Darwin @ 1516 fps >>> 7001 fpe

Cruisin' for a bruisin', the Nohbozo way.

Doing some testing with starter powder, 15gr Blue Dot, with
slower powders that fill the cases with minimum wads.
Tested in 3.5" RMC case in NEF with shotgun primer,
with 36" added to barrel.Remember I have extra foot of bbl.

These 4 top loads expanded case, where I check it, just above
thick base section to .811" from .807" resized.

1000gr jacketed, 230gr HBMG, 1800 fps, 7200 ft lbs,
with 1/8" card and 1/4" felt wad.

715gr jkt, 270gr HBMG, 2200, 7600 ft lbs, 1/8" card.

600gr Dixie, 250 gr Retumbo, 2400, 7600 ft lbs, 1/8" card.

385gr jkt AL core, 250 gr RL25,2900, 7200 ft lbs.

Now the starter powder loads, which a few guys like, increase
powder speeds so that HBMG acts like RL25. In first example,
with 1000 gr in RMC case you couldn't use 230gr of RL25
as that would expand RMC brass too much and stick the case.
A few guys have found that slow powder, with starter
powder is easiest for 1000gr and heavier loads.I've had a
few other guys try starter powder loads and like them.
Mainly using RL15-19 on lighter slugs.

On another note, I've heard around the grapevine that if
enough of us ask for NEF to make available a 12ga Ultra with
a 28" rifled bull barrel that they would do it.Start calling
folks, maybe do some good. Just tell them these new sabot
and fullbore slug loads need more barrel to get the velocity
out of them. 1-866-776-9292. Ed

Crap- I've got barrel envy! I have the least usable barrel length of all of you. Yet, I'll use science over brute force to achieve 7000Ft-lbs! Hope NEF doesnit listen too carefully and make a 12gafh chamber A STD ITEM! btw DOUBLE ENDED BORERIDER PGM RESULTED IN 1086 GR BULLETS.-Rob

Nef should take a cue from their
hotshot competitor, Encore. The stainless
12ga Prohunter has a 28" barrel.
If they lengthened chamber, they'd
stop at 3.5".....Ed

Well I had a interesting day. I made up three cases with 240grs of H50BMG, a double ended 1085 gr .7291 Borerider(molycoated) and hit the range. The Results were suprising. Instead of 1700fps I got a very tight avg velocity of only 1550fps with a range of only 10fps. Recoil felt markedly reduced, so I'm thinking the Borerider and molycoating combination wasn't building pressure the same way the .7301 full engagement Darwins were.
BTW I used Ed's cases which are 3.913 jnches long, have a water capacity of 380grs and will hold 357gr of H50bmg.
I recovered one Bore rider and its rifling engagement was perfect. No misfires again with The stock NEF spring and CCI-35 primers. Seems to work flawlessly! One ragged hole at 50 yrds offhand and thru the chronograph!
Interestingly Quickload predicts 1544 fps for 240gr of H50BMG in a 22 inch barrel.
I think I'm going to move to Rl-25 and work up from 190gr to 220. Quickload predicts I hit 1850fps at 26Kpsi for 8000ft-lbs with that powder. In my .700RLG I found that RL-25 was a much superior powder to H50BMG and it seems to be replicating well.

Rob-Do you have airspace or do you fill with wads.
Since I done 12GA FH, I use wads in all my big
bores, even 700s, seems to get better burn.
The 1000gr load gave me perfectly squeaky clean barrel.
In my early Savage testing with 31" barrel, our long case
with bmg primer, 230 gr with 730 gr, I only got about 1600
or so, and lot of unburnt powder in barrel.The RMC thick case
is less volume and along with being shorter expands less
in a chamber, as it is tighter fitting 12ga chamber,
would make a hotter burn, due to lesser expansion ratio.
1000 gr instead of 730 make it burn cleaner along with 15gr
of Blue Dot speeding it up a little. Your RL25 loads and big primer
should be like the HBMG loads with starter powder.
In the NEF to compare cases and priming systems I
just fired our case with bmg primer with 715 jkt with 270 gr
HBMG(same size load fired in RMC test with starter), with
airspace and by recoil was a bit less than RMC load.
Can't chrono in the dark, but seems about 1800 where
the other load in RMC was 2200, and had a much sharper
crack and recoil. Ed

Ed- No I dont use wads to reduce the airspace. There definately is lots of unburnt powder and even quickload lists the 240 gr H50BMG load as very inefficient. From these results I believe that inreased bullet reistance or wads etc. does inprove the Burn of H50BMg but its probably not the best powder for this level cartridge. Safe, but not optimum. I found that moving to Rl-25 made a huge difference before and it seems to be replicating. I have used a dacron filler in the past but try and keep away from it if at all possible. Lets see what Rl-25 does.-Rob

Wads will make life easier and safer.
No fancy plastic stuff, but plain old cards
and nitro felt wads.And they are so much
better than dacron fluff. You must have a
one in a hundred hammer spring in the NEF
to keep going without misfires.Ed

Ed and Rob,
Great additions to the science of the 12GaFH.
Thanks.

I agree with Ed on the Wads.
The cards and wads are dense compared to the dacron fluff.
Less air, even when you pack fluff to your best.
No chance of ringing a chamber!
A 1/2" 12-gauge fiber wad weighs about 17.5 grains. Two of them will fill an inch of case and add about 35 grains to projectile weight for internal ballistic purposes.

Ed must be getting at least 200 fps extra velocity with his extra foot of barrel.

Lower velocity with the bigger case capacity and "slicker" bullet ... makes sense.
I need to get Quickload, since AccuLoad3 just won't handle numbers as big as 12GaFH requires.
Good to know Quickload does so well.

The 4-bore was jolly good fun, but the 12GaFH is a lot better killer, no doubt. New life for the "Bore Rifles."

4-Bore:
caliber = 1.052 in.
XSA = 0.8692 sq.in.
Conical bullet weight = 1880 grains
(patched round ball weight = 1250 grains)
MV = 1300 fps
(patched round ball MV = 1500 fps)
KE = 7054 fpe
(round ball KE = 6244 fpe)
MD = 401.6 lbs.-ft./sec.
(round ball MD = 308.2)

12GaFH:
caliber = 0.729 inch
XSA = 0.4174 sq.in.

Conical bullet weight = 1372 grains
MV = 1525 fps
KE = 7084 fpe
MD = 716.1 lb-ft/s

Conical bullet weight = 1086 grains
MV = 1750 fps
KE = 7384 fpe
MD = 650.5 lb-ft/s

Ed's loads with the lighter bullets and long-barrel advantage of high velocity,
still beat the 4-bore for MD, except for the one "novelty load" with an aluminum-filled JHP:

1000-gr @ 1800 fps MD = 616.0
715-gr @ 2200 fps MD = 549.1
600-gr @ 2400 fps MD = 492.8
385-gr @ 2900 fps MD = 382.1

Compare with "lesser cartridge" Momentum Density:
.30-'06: 220-gr @ 2400 fps MD = 1012.3
.375H&H: 300-gr @ 2550 fps MD = 990.0
.375WBY: 300-gr @ 2800 fps MD = 1087.0
.416WBY: 400-gr @ 2700 fps MD = 1135.4
.458Lott: 500-gr @ 2300 fps MD = 997.6
.460WBY: 500-gr @ 2650 fps MD = 1149.3
500A2: 600-gr @ 2500 fps MD = 1048.9

Not trying to create another "Bwana Saeed Index" here,
but let's pretend ...

BSI-2 = (MD)(KE)(C*3)(K)
where
MD = Momentum Density
KE = Kinetic Energy
C = Caliber of Bullet, or speed of light, cubed in the expression above, not sure which is most appropriate yet ...
K = A Constant, fudge factor, unknown as yet ... maybe it stands for "Kidding?"

Not another Lethality-Whomp Index!

quote:

4-Bore:
caliber = 1.052 in.
XSA = 0.8692 sq.in.
Conical bullet weight = 1880 grains
(patched round ball weight = 1250 grains)
MV = 1300 fps
(patched round ball MV = 1500 fps)
KE = 7054 fpe
(round ball KE = 6244 fpe)
MD = 401.6 lbs.-ft./sec.
(round ball MD = 308.2)

Hmmm...

Patched round ball should be 1750 Grains at whatever velocity you can stand - 1500 is probably right.

Conicals these days are mostly 2000 grains at 2000 FPS.....Tom could shed some light on this eh..??