I look at this thread once in a while, really neat stuff that you are doing. I have a question: what brass are you using for the 28 Ga FH, is it brass shotgun shells? Sorry if you have already anwsered this question.

I picked up an antique roll crimp tool somewhere and tried it on some plastic cases. It looks like will do a pretty good job. Been too busy to get to the range.

It's made to clamp to a table or bench and then crank the handle while applying pressure with the lever.

Whizzbang- We will use 3.25" brass that
we are having Rocky MTn make.Chambers will still fire shorter plastic cases.
Glen- Those are nice old crimpers and will
do a factory looking professional job.
Another few weeks and our weather will
get comfortable to get outside also.Ed

Info about the toggle link. It is up inside
the breech block, and quite short,and that
allows the overall height of the action to
be relatively compact, for the huge
cases we plan on using.But yet the top
part of the breechblock is solid for
great strength.Ed

Asked about using 900 gr saboted bullets in
3" plastic cases in regular barrels with
4759 or RL-15 and starter powder.
With bullets that heavy you'd have too
high of pressures with 4759
for plastic cases. Possibly could do
it with RL-15 and starter
powder in plastic, but only
in heavy barreled like NEF.

But the 600 gr Dixie is still the best for
most uses in plastic.

A NEF and brass RMC cases would handle 900 gr
Saboted bullet with RL-15 and starter powder. Start
at 80 gr Rl-15 and go up if cases don't expand to much to resize.Ed

Here is pic of a double that I will put
barrels in, monoblock style, using the breech
section for the monoblock. This one will be
for 28GA FH. May get another same size for
my 510HE. I will be able to run full pressures
with these.....I am trying to find a bigger,
heavier one to put 12GA FH in. I want
heavier one so as to run pressures like my
Savage as a minimum.Ed.

Ed- looks like your making good progress on the FB. Keep up the great work.-Rob

Ed
though it's not true to the idea, the 28 NE, aka 550 flanged.... well, i have a reamer!

Jeff-28GA FH will be .550 barrel but a bigger
base case than 550MAG/Express cases, and chamber will take regular 28ga cases.
Kind of a favor for couple million
deserving shotgun hunters.
Rob-Yes we are gaining. Another few weeks we will be in the shop with the vertical shaper
and broaches, and get a real accurate
model done.Ed.

I was looking at an 8ga single on
GB, that looked heavy enough to put
a barrel in for 12ga or 700HE. They
wanted much more than it cost
new.It was a real heavy
Spanish single. If I found an extra,
or the 8ga Tonolini double, I might
leave it 8ga, as I could make a few
cases by reworking 20mm Suzy brass,
can be done without adding rim,which would
be super strong cases like our 12ga FH.Ed

Have you looked at the Huglu SxS guns?

I think they look pretty nice. They are made on a Monoblock with 2 lugs and a Greener cross bolt. they come with single and double triggers and different size frames. 12, 20, 28ga.
Any idea how they would hold up?

The Huglus are as strong I think as the
10 ga Zabala I show above.
They seem to cost more, but may be
worth it,Thinking of getting a 12ga
also later on and just doing the
monoblock on the right barrels, leaving the
left barrels 10 and 12 ga. Make one
right barrel 28ga FH, other 510HE.May save work
and I have two versatile guns. Ed

Had question about locking RMC cases onto
lead slugs, as they hey don't crimp into the
grooves well as sharp bend works thick
mouth. First I resize tight and slightly bell
mouth.Insert slugs which take a little pressure.Then I use a die with slightly more
taper and swage the mouth into slug, like
the fit you get with bottleneck cases.
Same deal works with our long cases made
from BMG brass.Ed

Preliminary testing with VV N-110 powder shows
it works with small primers like the 4759 powder does,
in plastic cases. Perfect ignition on first
bunch of loads with 600gr slugs.Ed

VV N110 appears to be great for slugs.
In 2 3/4" cases full load of 75 gr has
same velocity as 80 gr of 4759. Ignition
perfect, same low pressures as lab
tested with 4759.600gr slug. Starting load
60 gr, and don't go any less as it needs same
minimum like 4759 for perfect ignition.
Full load has a card and 1/4 cushion wad.
Will do 3" cases now.Ed

More VV N-110 testing that we got done.
Starting loads are 60 gr min like 4759 for good
ignition,600gr slug. In 2 & 3/4" plastic full load is 75gr
with card and 1/4" cushion wad.In Nef 24" bbl 1700fps.
In 3" plastic 87gr, card and 3/8" wad, 1800 plus.
In RMC brass case. 100gr, card and 1/2 wad 1900 plus.
All running same safe pressures as 4759 lab tested.
So that is two powders that are slower than shotgun
powders, and much safer to work with, giving dependable ignition with regular
primers, giving at least 20% more velocity
than the hottest shotgun powder factory
loads, or any shotgun powder loads I did. Ed

Hey Ed, what about the Winchester 24?? I just purchased one and the reciever is quite hefty looking. Not too sure on the lock-up, still waiting on the 10-day California crap to be over before I can pick it up. Looks like it might be able to stand some hefty stuff.

The 24 and other regular barreled 12ga could
use slugs designed for smooth of about 500g
with our 4759 and VV110 loadings, start at 60
gr. Got to be careful as the actions are ok,
but the thinner muzzles might be a problem,
if you tried to match what I did in heavy
NEF with 600gr and more of either powder.
Those powders keep peak pressures down but
down the barrel pressure is higher.
When I get time and $, get a pressure trace
setup to check muzzle pressure as well as
chamber pressures.Ed

I've been reading more about it. Seems like a fairly stout reciever. I'm planning on ditching the barrel set and whipping up a new set, fully rifled and heavier barrels. We'll see how things go. Planning on going with at least 30" barrels. Haven't quite decided yet on what load for it, however that'll come along.

That is the way to do it, heavy barrels.
Testing soft buckhammer vs hard Dixie. Dixie 600 gr,
Buckhammer from factory hull 640gr with locked on wad,both
out of Savage at 2300. Dixie went through 2 -1/8" steel
sheets and on through two more 3 feet away.Buckhammer
went through first two with same round hole, but made
a bunch of dents and one cockeyed hole 3 ft away.Ed

Along with the two slower than shotgun powders, IMR 4759
and VV N110 that ignite reliably with shotgun primers,
that are easier to load for slugs, in heavy bbl can
get 20% plus more velocity, I've found another. It is
IMR 7383 $3 a lb surplus. Tested plastic 3" cases, perfect
ignition with regular primers. 8 types of cases,600gr slug
starting load 100gr. Full load 140gr giving 1800 fps plus
in 24" bbl NEF.With loads halfway between start and full
didn't even have to resize to shoot again.Full load just has
a card wad under slug in 3" plastic.Wad just tight on
charge, as no extreme compression of powder needed.
Will do heavier slugs and
RMC brass cases. Ed

Tested 7383 with 730gr Dixie, 130gr gets 1650 plus fps
in NEF 24" bbl. Used 3" plastic cases. Same low expansion
as 7383 the 600gr loads and the 4759 lab tested loads.
Ignition perfect, no hesitation.Ed

Tested 800g slug with 7383 in plastic.Works good.
Have question about different cases and dies.
The RMC cases use a shotgun primer, thus they have
a real thick base. They are not a thin headed,
balloon headed case, and RMC makes sides thick
enough for regular 12ga wads.
But in a break action the 3" plastic cases
with our 4759, VV110, 7383 loads are close to RMC in
power. Can buy a hundred plastic for price of one RMC.
3.5" chamber 12ga with plastic is as good as RMC for 3"
And if I shot RMC in Savage to get more power,
which I could do as far as the firing process,
the expansion above the base, due to being a turned case
would make extraction stiff, causing extractor to
damage rim. A turned rim will not take what
a drawn one will. Rcbs set should do RMC easy.Ed

Ed, I've FINALLY finished reading the entire thread, which was fun to say the least. This is all quite amazing, and the effort all of you have put into this is great.
I do, have a few questions out of curiosity.
Since you are more knowledgeable about pressures, etc, than myself. I do build falling blocks here in the shop, but they are machined out of solid stock, and not cast, and I only do about one per year. I've never had to worry about pressures that much with my design, and that is why I feel you may be more able to figure pressures better than myself.
A few questions:
I here a lot of the NEF rifle frame on here. What if we were to take a barrel, cut it off at the block welds, and weld a new pac-nor barrel on, and chamber to nitro express pressures? Will this frame hold say, a .500 3"?
And too, if we scale up to the 10ga. frame, could we do the same in .577 or .600?
Now, bear in mind, this is just out of curiosity. I feel that they would unlock upon firing. And I've heard of the frames stretching, etc. But, after seeing what you've put through yours, it looks like they would handle a good bit of thrust. I must add, that I did play around and rechamber a 45-70 nef to 45-120, loading it to 450-3 1/4" nitro spec, and to be honest it does quite well in this mode, although without proper stock and weight, it is rough. I figured low pressure nitro double rifle loads. I DO NOT figure bolt rifle loads. The bolt rifle loads would tear the sucker apart from end to end for sure, and would only work in a Falling Block.
Second question:
The falling block you are designing, is great. How is it coming along at this point?
If you need assistance, let me know. I can help as much as I can.
Also, about the nef thing-personally I don't recommend it, but out of curiosity, it is interesting to think about it. The mind must wander, right? I think jeffeoso had a thought about this in a thread somewhere-did he ever do it?lol I think it was a 45-70 to .450 like mine.
Fun to think about if nothing else. One could go to .450no.2 in the nef barrel, but I think the scope base screw holes are drilled to deep.
I'm sticking with the FB's but it is fun to think about. Weld a pac-nor on there and have at it. I read a thread on another site where a fellow had a .500 3" nef. I thought I was mis-reading it but if he was not b-s-tting, then oh-well. The nef holds the .30-06 at 50,000, so why not low pressure rounds with bigger case heads? Certainly, one could do a Nitro-for-Black loading without breaking a sweat.

Walksfar- I don't know about the NEF. Ed has more experiencce with it than I have, but think about an Encore. They will work with a 12 Ga FH short so a .500 3 inch is a piece of cake. You could TIG weld on a breechblock and be ready to go easily in that caliber. I've done some experimenting with an Encore that suggests they will handle in excess of 85Kpsi loads. The engineers at TC and Mike Belm confirmed this to me on more than one occasion.-Rob

If you do any weld, do only the pivot block
onto a barrel. Ther s a company that makes
special barrels for NEF, in long lengths
and might do different calibers.
If barrels cut off just ahead of pivot then you use monobloc like factory does by sweating in a barrel or thread one in.
The NEF will take any NE, 45-70,90 -, or 50-70,
cartridge pressures as long as you get it
to extract. Even 700NE, similiar to our case.
Extraction is the key. New NEFs have positve
mechanical primary extraction I understand.
Shot 600 at 2500 in NEF fine in 12GA FH.
We are gaining on falling block.We think we found way and foundry guy for intermediate
12ga size one. Using all original parts
which Tom has the molds for, and parts, but
two.Uses original extractor. Taking some
finicky designing and models for that.
Reason to do that way, the foundry can make them much faster. Then I only have to do
the biggest one. Ed

Thats what I was thinking. And, about the positive extraction on the new ones, I'll look into that. They can't compete with a $10,000 falling block, but they are fun as heck to play with and modify. In fact I've seen some pretty useful "truck" guns made from them.
As to the FB-That is a plus for the foundry set-up.
I can't wait to see photos of some.
From the photo's of the aluminum mock-up version, it looks like all is favorable.
Again, I can't wait to see how these turn out.
Thank's again, gentleman.

Finished test of 7383/870 slug in NEF.
Tested 870gr hardened slug with 118gr of
7383, got 1500 plus. Perfect ignition.
Cases ejected easy, and has same base
expansion as the 600 gr slug/140gr 7383.
Will have these pressure/velocity tested
in few weeks.Ed

Hubel458,

Havent had time to readtrough all the post but skimmed trough it. All I can say is WOW and sounds like youre having a lot of fun when is one of the beasts coming to Africa for some hunting ?

My friends always joke with me, "yes the Yanks always wants to build bigger and faster." Well here is some proof and I love it.

Tested a 750 gr banded solid, grooves .009 smaller
than land diameter and got same velocity as
with lead slug weighing the same at same pressure.
Other banded brass slugs with groove debth
same as land raised pressures compared to lead.
Got 2700 easy with 750gr, in long case in Savage.Ed

The folks at 50 Cal want us to write up a
piece on the 12GA FH. Interested in what we
did to make hairy cartridge using 50 cal
adapted to the 12 gauge shotgun platform.
A job for Rob to do? His wild idea has been
viewed about 400,000 times in the forums
we put it in.Ed

Ed- Yes FCSA has been after me for awhile on this. Years ago when Skip Talbot was still alive he and I had many drinks and laughs over the beast. However, you have been a major contributor and I would be pleased to have you collaborate on a article. I have to say, 2700fps with a 750 gr solid from a 12 ga is pretty good horsepower. -Rob

Anyone got any long 12ga rifled 30" plus
barrels, 1.3" plus diameter. Barrel
guy is shutting down and returning funds.
Been waiting for 12ga heavy barrel for
87 levergun since last summer.Boy it is
hard getting projects done.Ed

I'm curious if anyone has hunted with this yet. I would love here a hunting story with this neat project.

I have a 12 ga rifled blank from ER Shaw that is 24" long. I don't know if they would do longer ones on request.
While talking with Bauska Barrels, he mentioned that he could do 12 ga barrels.

Les has closed the shop. I will have to
find 12ga and 700 barrels elsewhere.
The fellow who was taking over, had
a death in the family.And it messed up
the barrel making.A real terrible
tragedy in the family.
Got a note from Les today
when he returned funds
for a 12ga and 700 barrel.Last paragraph-

"We have come to the end of an era,closing
the gunshop after 60 years.Thank you for
your patronage. Yours, Les Bauska"......

They just played Billy Joe's
"Live Forever". Let's hope Les gets many
years of hunting and fishing.
And other family finds peace.Ed

Tom pressure tested 7383 powder load today.
Regular primers, Rem 3" plastic case.
Load was 118 gr of 7383 and Greg Sappingtons
heavy 870 gr slug. Pressure averaged 12,800 psi.
Velocity 1370 fps. I will have him test a full
load with 130 gr of powder, the max amount
a 3" plastic case will hold and still crimp
down to a length that feeds from regular
12ga magazines. Pressure is little less than
I thought. Vel was plus/minus 5 fps from average.
You know that means guys loading heavy slugs
for heavy barreled guns won't have to worry about
to high of pressures. That 7383 could easily work
in 600-700 NEs and fire reliably with small
primers, with 90% plus fill( no fillers
or starter powder) and low pressures.Ed

Found another powder that works with small
primers in plastic and RMC cases.
It is IMR 4227. Ignition perfect, same load
levels and velocities as 4759. My earlier
report of 4227 not working was in error
due to what looks like 4198 in a jug
hand labeled 4227 I got in big batch years ago.
Greg told me 4227 worked for him so I got new
jug, and saw the difference from jug I had.

So slower than shotgun, powders that ignite
properly; we have 4759, VV-110, 4227, 7383 surplus,
the latter a slow powder. Ed

Pressure tested 7383 with heavier powder load.
870 gr with 128 gr of 7383-- All that could
be put in REM plastic and keep length to what
would feed from magazine of a 3" gun.
1513 fps-- 14700 psi. That is a slug 50%
heavier than factory Buckhammer at little
faster speed and at little less pressure.
Ignition perfect, cases fall out.
Love that $3 a lb powder.ED

I am testing 3" plastic cases with IMR 4227
with heavier slugs. Fired with 730 gr.
Start loads worked ok. Will go to 800gr.
Then to Greg's 870gr. Got two Mossy bolts
coming to test with heavy barrels, and
do our long case in one with barrel size
like I have on Savage.Ed