http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EVqT3XEzss

watching the above video makes you laugh but if you want to shoot a big bad 585 bullet or the 577 nitro express around and want to spend about 2K vs 15K in a double rifle...this might be for you.

the traditional 577 shot a 750 grain bullet @ 2,050 fps and it was the standard for ivory hunters of the late 1800's

that was all well and good...then comes the t-rex shooting a 750 grainer @ 2600 fps and the above video shows the drawbacks of such a gun in a hunting weight rifle.

the drawbacks of the t-rex for the averag guy
expensive
recoil
HUGE

then the more sensable but not by much nyati...capable of shooting the 750 grainers @ 2400 fps...still unmanageable and expensive for the average shooter and add a rebate rim for the cherry on top to add to the smithing bill.

so what is the best way to shoot this beast for the average blue collar big bore enthusiast?

well there is the ruger # 1 but you will be out the same money and limited to a single shot and in a rifle not designed for heavy recoil.

thus the 585 belted magnum

the 585 belted magnum being developed by ed hubel father of the infamous 12gfh and big bore to the max enthusiast is making this idea a reality and a reality to those interested in having one.

to describe the case (pics comming soon) it is basicly a fat 470 capstick that is 3" long (same length as the 477 n.e.). the parent case is the 505 gibbs. ed swages a belt on the case and necks it to the .585 dia bullet. the gibbs case is having a revival due to the renaisance of big bore shooters and the advent of the 408 chey-tac. the 505 once a cart you only read about is now a cart that is avaliable from several sources like norma, jamison and betram. being that the case is no longer obscure and jamison brass could be had for $2 a case this brings the belted versions affordability up. cz makes the 505 on its affordable cz550 model so we know that it works. now if you pick up this zc550 in 416 rigby (approximately $1,000) you could rebarrel it and for about 2K you ould be shooting affordably the big bad 585! get a new drop box and you can have 4 down and one in the chamber ready to take on a charge from several elephants if need be.

now for those who must...the top end of this cart estimated could push the 750 grainers @ 2300 fps. but i like the idea of shooting it at classic velocities and looooooooooow preasure

design advantages of this case is in not having any shoulder to mess with and to increase bolt thrust. furthermore the case life will be great since this is a straight belted case.

hope you like this and i will use this thread to post the development of this cartridge.

all thanks goes to ed who without his talent and love of big bores this would be just an idea.

Go Boomstick! Shorten it a hair to 3.00" and make it much easier, the 416Rigby case is 2.90".

Rich
DRSS

thanks rich...i was thinking 3" too as posted above. even at 2.9" it would be great. i think 3" would be about max to work in the cz550 with the 577 bullets. also i like having it the same length as the 577 nitro...it could be called the 577 belted magnum nitro express for all intensive purposes.

as you can see in the sig line pic it wont take much to make a 585 headstamp...just turn the 0 in 505 to an 8 to get 585...was this a match made in big bore heaven???

jamison 505 gibbs basic brass will take a .585 bullet "As is" as I was the first person (literally, in the planet) to drop a 585 bullet into that brass... but nothing to headspace off..

Boomy, Ed, you guys have fun with this, but creating belts (jamison might go ahead aand make that for your) on unbelted cases is lots of work and "risk" of ruining cases...

anyway, you can buy these cases from RNS/Neal and try for yourself

of the current 585s, the 585 AHR is the best.. basically a 585 nyati that someone took Rob's fixes and unrebated the head.

jeffe

thanks for reminding me about the ahr...yes thee is also the ahr but it wont fit in the cz550. the 585 belted magnum lets you squeek by fitting in an economic big bore platform. the others are fine and dandy but you will pay more in size weight cost and recoil. the belted magnun is ideal for the classic velocities since the case size is near identical and can be loaded down further or up to shake out your fillings if that be the goal.

sure it will Boomie, they put the 505 Gibbs in there. If not, look for a P14/17/M30 and go from there...

Rich
DRSS

rich...could you check your 416 cz barrel and see if there is enough meat on it to rebore the barrel to 585...thanks! dont now if it could handel losing 85 thou a side but i thought i would check

This case is a great idea by Boomstick, as 505 brass is available I can make enough to get
a few guys started. It will do as good as
Trex, with the midrange ball powders I use,
due to straight design.And that design
doesn't work the brass, if chambered right,
so cases will last. At velocities he was talking about brass will never waer out.
I will have pics on in couple days.It is
shorter version of my 3.45" long belted
585HE straight case I have on an Enfield.Ed

well ed has been burning the midnight oil and elbow grease and has got the prototpe done!!!

there is some good news to report but i will let ed post it and hope to have a pic up by tomorrow night. things have went well and i think we have a winner cart here.

the woodleigh bullets from canalure to top are .625" so if the case is 2.975" we could do a common magazine length or 3.6" oal and not bat an eye on performance.

those banded solids look good
smurfs up...

Boomie,

whose banded solids are those?

Rich
DRSS

barnes

Here is picture of 585 Belted Magnum, with 06 comparison.
With 650 gr Woodleigh seated. It holds 160 gr plus
of ball powder. With midrange ball powder it will
do as good as Trex if wanted. Boomy and most will load
2100 to 2300. Pressures for those speeds will be moderate
and brass will last 50 loads at least. That case is
3 " long, belt .634", rim same, base is .618",
mouth .605". Belt headspace length is .250".
Sectioned cases show sidewall thickness just ahead of belt
the same as 600 OK case . Good and strong. WE
made this case from 505Gibbs basic brass. We may have
a good supply of this brass to make cases. Will know
in a few days.Ed

i think i'm in loooooove!!!

If you make one, bommie, I'm going to drive down there and try it out. I'm already flinching . . .

i'll drive up...there is more places to shoot up there...

ed has to do the load development first...

at classic velocities it wont be so bad

ed...

what is the capacity in grains of water of the case? thanks

Case capacity 185gr water.
Arrangements for case supply last nite.
The cases you will be able to get from
Neal at Custom Brass and Bullets. He has
half a garage full 505 basic cases,
and all I'm doing is changing them too
belted. And swaged ready to load. They're
Jamison cases, and have the word
Magnum stamped on them. Couple numbers changed
and it will read 585 Magnum.Ed

quote:

Case capacity 185gr water.

awesome ed...that is a lot of room for power!

I have a simliar longer case in
my Enfield. It's my 585HE
Now 585MAG won't do 3000 with 650gr
or 2800 with 750gr, like mine,
but it will do as good as, or better than
Nyati and Trex. I will be able to do load
developement with my long case and some
hard wads I have for filler to get loads same
as what the 585Mag holds. It will also have expansion ratio same when I do, that so
the results will be accurate. Here is pic
for comparison. Left 585 Belted Mag, Center
600OK, right my 585HE.Ed.

the deal for reamers is being put together as I type. Thanks for the call this morning Ed. I'll update Boomie this afternoon. I am projecting 6-8 weeks til the first shot is fired. I bought an enfield in 505 Gibbs yesterday...the action work is down, and it just needs a barrel to go. I just need to say, that ONE Boomie is desperately needed here, and one Ed to help him out. Conspiracy theory at work here!

Rich
DRSS
Boomstick facilitator

What sort of recoil are you guys expecting from this thing? Just curious . . .

Thr ecoil will range from regular 577
on up to close to Trex, depending on how
heavy of bullets and the speed.Boomie
mentions mainly 577 speeds(2050), I reccomend
2300, for little more power and flatter
shooting.At 577 speds in decent weight gun will be about like 12ga 3.0" mag loads in a light
shotgun.Ed

quote:

Originally posted by hubel458:
Thr ecoil will range from regular 577
on up to close to Trex, depending on how
heavy of bullets and the speed.Boomie
mentions mainly 577 speeds(2050), I reccomend
2300, for little more power and flatter
shooting.At 577 speds in decent weight gun will be about like 12ga 3.0" mag loads in a light
shotgun.Ed

Well, if that is true, I think I could shoot it then. I have a very light weight FN police shotgun, of which I have fired some 3" slugs out of. It kicked the you-know-what out of me, but it still was not so bad that I could not hit a 50 yard target. Still, I don't know how anyone could do that from a bench!

teathound,

just keep track of this thread as the rifle goes together. Dave Manson says he will have reamers in my hands in four weeks or so. I have a 505 Gibbs that is just a barrel swap away from shooting. If you want to fly in to Boise on a Saturday morning you can shoot mine all you want in October. This offer is open to all...

Rich
DRSS

eric and i could switch off driving...

Eric and Boomie...that would be a carload all by itself.

I am about 600 miles from Reno if that is any help. My bullet man and I will be waiting for you with all the ammunition in 416 Rigby, 505 Gibbs, 550 Gibbs (I hope) and 585 Boomstick your Kaly-forn-I-ayyy butts can stand.
We can make this a little BBRSS (big-bore bolt rifle shooting society) if others want to come along. The BEE-BRRS Bash, 2007. BYOB-B...bring your own big-bore and swap rifles around for a party. Barbecue and Bull Session on my patio to follow...

Rich
DRSS

no women and children...this ain't gonna be no sunday school picnic
Single Malt scotch or Tequila...no umbrellas in the drinks either.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Eric and Boomie...that would be a carload all by itself.

I am about 600 miles from Reno if that is any help. My bullet man and I will be waiting for you with all the ammunition in 416 Rigby, 505 Gibbs, 550 Gibbs (I hope) and 585 Boomstick your Kaly-forn-I-ayyy butts can stand.
We can make this a little BBRSS (big-bore bolt rifle shooting society) if others want to come along. The BEE-BRRS Bash, 2007. BYOB-B...bring your own big-bore and swap rifles around for a party. Barbecue and Bull Session on my patio to follow...

Rich
DRSS

no women and children...this ain't gonna be no sunday school picnic
Single Malt scotch or Tequila...no umbrellas in the drinks either.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
I am about 600 miles from Reno if that is any help. My bullet man and I will be waiting for you with all the ammunition in 416 Rigby, 505 Gibbs, 550 Gibbs (I hope) and 585 Boomstick your Kaly-forn-I-ayyy butts can stand.
We can make this a little BBRSS (big-bore bolt rifle shooting society) if others want to come along. The BEE-BRRS Bash, 2007. BYOB-B...bring your own big-bore and swap rifles around for a party. Barbecue and Bull Session on my patio to follow...

Rich
DRSS

no women and children...this ain't gonna be no sunday school picnic
Single Malt scotch or Tequila...no umbrellas in the drinks either.

How far south in Idaho are ya? Northern Idaho is a really short hop for me, but Idaho is a long state (N-S wise).

Cheers,
Canuck

that would be cool...come on down canuck!

Canuck,

I am 20-some miles west of Boise, and 33 miles from the Oregon border on I-80/84. It would be a loooong day's drive, but you stop and get some Cubans for us (cigars) and I'll supply the targets and steaks...and some good scotch and tequila. Heck, find somebody to split the wheel time with!

I am thinking about six to ten of us and a real good time! You can provide the International Ambience every good drinking bout requires!

Rich
DRSS

Well men, if I'm still on medical leave in October (which is a good possibility), this may be possible. We can take my Dodge Ram 4x4 quad cab (which didn't get to go to Wyoming last year because I hitched a ride with some buddies). Nevertheless, this sounds good so far.

I’m always up for blasting rifles . . .

quote:

Originally posted by Teat Hound:
Well men, if I'm still on medical leave in October (which is a good possibility), this may be possible. We can take my Dodge Ram 4x4 quad cab (which didn't get to go to Wyoming last year because I hitched a ride with some buddies). Nevertheless, this sounds good so far.

I’m always up for blasting rifles . . .

i call shotgun!

i will make sure the cab is full of beef jerky, gatoraid, coffee and some gas...the tank kind

put the deal together gentlemen!

Rich
DRSS

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Canuck,

I am 20-some miles west of Boise, and 33 miles from the Oregon border on I-80/84. It would be a loooong day's drive, but you stop and get some Cubans for us (cigars) and I'll supply the targets and steaks...and some good scotch and tequila. Heck, find somebody to split the wheel time with!

I am thinking about six to ten of us and a real good time! You can provide the International Ambience every good drinking bout requires!

Rich
DRSS

A looong day is about right. If google-maps' directions are in fact the best (going through Spokane and down through Washington), I'm thinking about 10 hours'ish. Could be doable if your plans fall when I am free and can make a long weekend of it....but it is still the best of our hunting season, sooo...have to play it by ear. I'll stay tuned!

ps: I thought you guys would be bringing the International Ambience???!?!

Cheers
Canuck

well il be good for jerky, gatoraid, coffee and some gas.

NO-NO-NO! The ambience comes with the guest(s), although some in Idaho consider Kaly-forn-I-anns in that light...call it even.

Since yours would be the longest, most arduous trek, we will give you some time to set the date, October or even early November. Check your schedule and get back with us.

Rich
DRSS

quote:

585 belted magnum the best 585?

I would not think so. If it has to have a belt, it is not so good. If you can't design a .577 case that can be headspaced w/o a belt, try using smaller (in diameter) bullets. You can shoot a 750-grainer from a .50 caliber bore, you know!!

quote:

Originally posted by El Deguello:

quote:

585 belted magnum the best 585?

I would not think so. If it has to have a belt, it is not so good. If you can't design a .577 case that can be headspaced w/o a belt, try using smaller (in diameter) bullets. You can shoot a 750-grainer from a .50 caliber bore, you know!!

this is what i gather and maybe ed could explain it better than i...

it is duplicating the 577 in capacity and function.

when you get to this size catagory you have to wory about bolt thrust on a bottle neck cart. the case is straight so no messing with shoulders and less strain on the case. the case will last longer. this is what i think is the goldilocks version...not to big, not too small.

there is a significant jump from 505/510 to 585 to have a bottleneck cart on a 585 it needs to be a big reeeely big case or have a rim or belt. since there is nothing wrong with the 577 nitro express there is nothing wrong with the belted version. the benefit of the belted gibbs case is to use the largest case that will work well without a rebate in plenty of accessable not too expensive bolt actions vs a double rifle.

you can throw a 750 grain bullet out of a 505 gibbs but that is like saying why have a 375 h+h when you can have a 300 h+h

there is nothing reely wrong or bad about the ahr trex and nyati but the practicality is there are inherent issues with all of them in terms of cost, size and avaliability of good and uniform brass dies and reamers from what i hear.

this is a solution to cost, size and avaliability. real world issues. if you can drop the money to have a perfect one of those nyati ect guns and can supply yourself with all the brass and ammo at the prices they demand...go for it i solute you.

this is simply the bolt action version of the 577 nitro express that has the upside of as much performance as you can take if the shooter wishes. have classic loads at looooooow preasure or stomping stoping performance at moderate preasure.

It has a belt as needed for headspacing
a straight sided case. This point-- If
all the velocity you may want, can be gotten
with the powder in a case straight behind
the bullet---why have a shouldered case, with
neck and shoulder to expand and shrink
when resizing, wearing out brass quicker,
harder to make reamers and dies, etc.
I have case for my belted 700HE fired couple
dozen times that we sectioned to check it out, and still not thinned too much. It was
fired with low and high pressure loads,one
of which was a load of Blue Dot and light
bullet that come apart before reaching
backstop. Thes cases will have uniform belts,
the reamers will be proper clearances,
not started oversize like factories do so they can be regound till they they get small, and
the cases will last. It goes back to this-
If the velocity you may want, can be had
with the powder in a case straight behind
the bullet---why have a shouldered case.
That's why 600 OK is great, the 458Lott
is great, the 550Mag ia great.and this
one will be also.Ed