Got the NEF chambered for long case. And remember it
has beefed up hammer for bmg primers used in our case.
Got 2500 fps with 600 gr slug, cases eject out real easy,
8300 ft lbs from an NEF with 24 inch barrel.If you set up
NEF to use regular primers adapted to our case or
have Rocky Mtn make a long case you can do it without
a lot of work on the hammer and springs. Just use a
flake shotgun powder as a starter powder above the
primer, which how 700 NE and others are loaded.
Use 10 gr of flake and cut regular load 40 gr and
work up if pressures allow.Ed.

I mentioned above using starter powder above
small primers. Thr reason is the diameter
of the powder charge in big cases relative to
small primers. I had some squib loads in
short cases(NEF & 87) where the powder burnt
hole through the middle of charge and left
powder sticking to sides of case. Shotgun flake powder solves that.Loads that went boom and
burnt all the powder without starter powder
still had effect like a flintlock.
Even with RE-7, so I solved it.Example
in 3" Rocky Mtn cases(NEF) with shotgun primer
I use 10 gr Blue Dot and 120 gr of RE-7
and on slow rifle powder side use 10 gr
BD and 180 gr of RE-25.With faster RE-7
less volumne, space taken up by wads.
Our longer or cut back case with BMG primer
starter not needed as primer is 3 times stronger and puts out larger diameter flame due
to that strength.That NEF is a blast with
the long case, and little harder to hold down
than much heavier Savage.Ed

More on the starter powders I mention above.
12ga plastic or brass cases with small primers
designed for easy starting shotgun powders.
You use slower powders like my loads and
you must have same shotgun powders in small amounts above primer for good ignition.
I can take 200 gr slow powder and put in two cases with small primers, a 12ga Rocky Mtn
and my 585HE. The latter fires any slow
powder including charcoal with no problems.
The 12ga without starter powder had a few
squibs, and slightly delayed ignition,

Now for final loads with plastic in NEF and
87. 600 gr slug.
10 gr of Blue Dot starter and max of
90gr of RE-7. Start at 70gr work up if
pressure signs allow.We are going to test
RL-12 and 15 and they should work without
the bulges. They will need starter
powder also. Said pressure signs
are small bulges where extractor cut outs
are, and shows just ahead of the rim.
And for heavy strong guns only.

Final loads in Rocky Mtn brass using RE-7
is 10gr Blue dot starter and 110gr Re-7.
Start at 90gr and work up.600gr slug.
Will test RE-12 and 15 soon.You could do
more but the excess expansion and harder
resizing will ruin case life in couple shots.
Strong guns only. Ed

Hot damn I got the hammer in the 87 beefed up
and it fires bmg primers fine. And a real
neat job, not a blowtorch job.Will have a long
barrel soon.
We are testing RE-12 and 15 in plastic and
Rocky Mtn cases, both small primers. Using starter powder. They will be even better than
Re-7 as case expansion will be much less.
They will work best with longer barrel which
the 87 has got to have anyway.Ed

Testing the cases,plastic and brass with small
primers and starter. A big find.Can't do
this for reliable ignition if the cases
are ballon head, whether plastic or brass.The cases must have the area between side and
the pprimer at least .200 thick.One reason is
strength. And some plastic I have measured is
only about .060 thick there and the protrusion
in the center for primer is .140 above that
thickness.. So 10 gr of starter powder is
in a groove so to speak and not on top of primer!!! That isn't good. I cut the cases
off at the brass base, poured in 10 gr
of flake powder and saw how it laid
in the case. Nice thing is that a most brands of cases are thick enough, like Win AAs.
So far RE-15 and Blue Dot starter looks
very good, and easy on cases.Velocity as good as RE-7.Will keep testing and I ran out of
RE-12 and the shops have no more, So
it will be RE-15 which I think turning
out best, or RE-7 in smaller
amounts.Ed.

Ed- Keep up the good work! Your unbelievably devoted! We all are learning a great deal from your efforts! my hats off to you!-Rob

Thanks Rob-I list my occupation as
"Gunnut". It is the best occupation. Ed

Ed- your a good man!-Rob

Got testing done with Rocky Mtn cases,
small primers and 10gr of Blue Dot starter
powder. The small primer and starter powder
take the place of a BMG primer,
that is in our cases cut back shorter
for use in NEF and 1887 levergun.
In NEF 3" Rocky Mtn brass starter powder
and 140 gr of RE-15.Space filled up by card wad and felt wads, amount depending on how you seat
the slug. About 1800 fps.
In the 87 case cut to 2.4" the
length that feeds from mag, 120 gr of RE-15,
starter powder, and one thin .045 card wad.
That's all it holds.Slug loaded flush.
A little over 1600. With long barrels
a couple hundred more for both guns.
Will have plastic RE- 15 results in
couple days.Ed.

Results of RE-15 testing in plastic cases.
600 gr hardened Dixie slug and 10gr
of Blue dot starter powder in both lengths.
In Nef, 3 inch case is about 2.6 crimped,
and 120 gr RE-15 max load. In 1887, 2.75 inch
cases are about 2.35 crimped, 110 gr RE-15
max load. In 2.75 case thats all it will
hold,with card wad, in longer make up space with wads.The reason I'm checking plastic is so many shotgun reloading guys want more power for big game, and they are set up to
load plastic. With starter powder- a caution.
You must put starter in keeping case level,and the powder put in on top, must be put in slow
so as not to push it away from primer.
Greg Sappington clued me in on another powder that may do the job without starter powder
and be slow enough to get velocities up
without to much pressure. It's IMR SR-4759.
Will have some in couple days.I made contact
to get some of these loads pressure tested,
to check my pressure calculations..Ed.

Hey Ed,
have you tried VihtaVuori (sp?) N170 yet? Slooooooooooowwwwwww burn rate.

Rich

Rich-It is similiar to Hodgdons Retumbo
which I have used in the long case. A little
faster than H-BMG.About same a AA-8700.
To slow for the short cases.Ballistic
Research is going to pressure test some
short cases for me.He has 12ga test setup
with 3" chamber and a transducer testing
setup.Ed

Been testing IMR-4759. No ignition problems.
Ignition is instant with regular primers.
Don't need Blue Dot starter powder.
All plastic cases so far.600 gr slug. I got a
nice working roll crimper attachment
for drill press for crimping slugs.
That sure makes it easy, and perfect crimp.
In 2 & 3/4 plastic cases with loaded
length of about 2.35 inches got to 80gr.
That's max as you must leave room for
about 3/8 wads or cushion wad. Some cases
may only hold 75 grains max due to
the case construction.Powder is less dense
than RE-15. 1650 plus fps in 24 inch barrel.
In 3 inch cases, loaded length about 2.6
inches, got to 95 grs max, 1800 plus fps.
Some cases may only hold 90 gr due to
case construction. Cushion is
a half inch felt wad or equivalent.
Both lengths start down and go up
if pressures allow. 60 gr short case,70 long.
This powder being faster than RE-15 you must
have a little cushion in the way of felt wads
or plastic cushion wads.With slower RE-15
a card wad works ok as powder started slower.
The powder burning must build pressure
to open crimp with out a high pressure spike.
This bulky powder with reliable ignition
is a winner.Next few weeks will get these
pressure tested.Ed

Tested IMR 4759 in 3" Rocky Mtn brass turned cases, in the NEF. Got max load of 105gr.
24" bbl, 600gr slug and 3/4 inch of
felt wads for cushion.1900+ fps. Perfect ignition, clean
burning and didn't expand cases to much, so resizing worked good.Ed

Everybody remember these loads are for
strong lockup actions of steel and heavy barrels.Even the shorter cases in
2.75 and 3 inch.The gun should have a one inch muzzle..Like the NEF Ultra 12 slug(1.070),
my Savage with heavy barrel, some pumps
with turn bolt lugs, heavy barrels added,
etc. Tula has a bolt 12ga that looks as heavy as Savage, but they don't import it.
It has front locking lugs.Lefteris in Greece
is putting heavy barrel on a Benelli Nova.
Nef and RM brass cases is the way to get
in the recoil business.Ed

quote:

Everybody remember these loads are for
strong lockup actions of steel and heavy barrels.Even the shorter cases in
2.75 and 3 inch.The gun should have a one inch muzzle..Like the NEF Ultra 12 slug(1.070),

Hi Hubel458,

Do you think that a Thompson Center Encore will handle these rounds (aside from the lack of initial firearm weight which would make recoil a killer? (Thanks))

Don the Encore will handle the 12GaFH short round, as Ed has described to me once before. My question about that is in one of the earlier pages of this post. I believe it will require some action work and a bit heavier barrel than T/C's bull barrel. They're making the Pro Hunter series now and I was curious as to if that 12 gauge slug barrel would stand up to such a load, but I'm in a tight spot right now so my means of ordering one is kind of out of the question. Good luck to you if you end up firing a Encore with one of those loads too, I have a 416 Rigby barrel for mine and that's harsh enough to shoot as is!

The Encores have alloy barrels. If it is
a decent size at muzzle, I think
it would handle the IMR 4759 loads,
in a 3" or shorter cases.Start low and work
up always using wads. No airspace, Ed

I just printed out this eleven pager so I can take it with me, I want to take my time with it.

Great work guys, really, great work.

There is gonna be some super DR in this caliber some day, if not already!

I want to see this scaled up to take
700HE, 12ga FH, 700NE, 50bmg, Rob's 700, etc,
or even 4bore, 8bore,20mm, 900HE.Anyone else
interested jump in. Were going to give it
a try. Ed.

Ed
What sort of $ figure you looking at?

Ed,

I guess it is time to let the lads in on what we two and Tom Ondrus (Tomo577) have been scheming on.

416SW and the group here:
Tomo577 owns the tooling, moulds, etc for the Wickliffe 76. IF, IF, he is successful in getting the orders for the original model, he will make a foundry run, and then assemble/heat treat them. That size (Model I) will let you build anything up thru a 577 NE.
Next item on the agenda: the three of us have been talking how nice it would be to up-scale the drawings and, in Ed's case, build 12GAFH sized model II. I talked with Tom about going up about 25% and making it for a four-bore class of cartridges. Call it the Model III. My logic is that that size would allow for an extra margin of strength in the 12Ga/700NE?...? line of cartridges, and give anyone who has enjoyed Safari Kid's 4-bore shooting videos the opportunity to enjoy a single shot. Four, Six, Eight, and Ten bore fans...it's all good to go. Tom has the thought that a run of forty actions from the foundry would allow the completed action package to go out the door for well under $2K. Well under! Ed Hubel has an investment in a business that made 200mm Vulcan Machinecannon barrels. They mike .998", and IIRC, are the same ones Tom Owens uses on his four bores. Cannot vouch for that, but I think that is what I heard. The barrels would be available very reasonably priced. A diemaker has suggested that on a group run of forty sets, he would make us a screaming price on a three die set. Ditto a bullet mould maker. The bullets would run about 1400gr for the express load, and about 1850-200gr for the DG stopper. Naval Ordnance makes jacketed bullets. If the "good" numbers on barrel and action do work (based on a run of forty actions) you could have a complete rifle for under $2500. That, plus any upgrades on wood, and would include dies and shellholder. Brass is surprisingly simple, the 20mm VMG cartridge cut off at 4" FL sized. I own an alloying pot that will take 250 pounds of lead/tin alloy at a time. That would make nearly 946 heavyweight slugs on a fill. Pan lube those babies, and push them thru a sizer that only squares them and rounds them, and load up. Even at the original BP velocities it would have to be the ultimate shoulder-fired experience.

If you would be interested, post here or let Tomo577 or Ed know. I can see me at the next STC club meeting with this one.

regards,

Rich

Talked to Tom. We are going to machine the first scale up action, clear up to 4bore size.
My machinest says it lends itself to machining
due to the fact that everything(trigger hammer,
hammer spring, etc ) except ejector is carried in and on the back of the breech block.And the bigger we make breech block and action, the easier to machine.Only three parts needed
scaled up- breech block, action, and hammer.
Everything else should work. 4bore barrels Rich
mentioned- we have Badger setting up to
do from his many ton stock of what he made
25mm bradley out of.We may find, and I feel
machining is better, as it looks like new molds, etc will be a few tens of thousands of dollars to do a run.That's why MRC needs 400.
It may be possible our action will be less than
40% of a Borchardt.And machining gives more flexibility, in that if one is wanted in
12ga, bmg, 700HE, 700NE size the thread size can be put in to match and sides thinned
saving weight and action matching barrel lines.
And for 4bore, 8bore, 20mm, 900HE size, a
bigger barrel thread and full thickness
sides, 8-9 lb action. Ed.

Yeah! What Ed said!!! I am on board for the thrid one, Tom is going to keep#1, and Ed already has dibbs on #2.
Anybody fancy a 4 bore single shot for that $2000-$2500 price range?

Rich

Found an O/U that would handle the 4759 3"
loads. It is the Zoli Z-Sport. Expensive,
all alloy steel construction, tested to
about 100k. That's not a missprint.Their
site shows testing at the Italian proof house
of 8000 bar.That's 7-8 times regular shotgun
working loads.Pic of action below. It handling that extreme pressure, means that other quality
O/U like Ruger would handle 4759 loads.Ed

SAFARIKID'S 4 bore DR is 26 pounds and we've all seen it MOVE HIM when he fires it.

That means a super sized Ruger #1 to shoot this 4 bore round NEEDS TO HAVE THAT KIND OF WEIGHT AS WELL IMO.

Is that what we're talking about? If so I am IN. But at 600NE type weight, or even 20-21 pounds, I ain't man enough.

Jack-There is no problem getting the wt.
Badgers 4bore straight blank will be
over 40 lbs.It starts at 2 5/8 inch.With heavy contour on barrel so it looks nice
and heavy 4bore 9 lb action you can get
any weight needed to tame the recoil.
My Savage is 25lbs and action
is only 3 of that.I took ten lbs off of the
2.25 inch 12ga barrel blank.Ed

Imagine: build the rifle with a 30" barrel at eighteen pounds. Then do like the air rifle shooters and thread a weight on the front to give you the load testing weight you need. Their thingie looks like a muzzle brake minus any holes. Drill the buttstock for TWO mercury recoil reducers, and epoxy a third into the forarm. This rifle will be manageable in the recoil department. I did get to shoot an eight bore once, and it was not the bonecrusher I had imagined it might be. If all of those 5'6"-5'9" 140-165 lb Englishmen could handle the recoil, surely we ought to be up to it eight or ten rounds a year. You guys got to think big, make that B-I-G!!

Rich

Oh yeah, you won't every own a 427 Cobra or an Enzo; but you can have one of the "Ultimate in Category" DGR single shots.

Rich

Can the lever be contoured to give the rifle a side view appearance similar to a giant Farquarsen or Ruger #1 more or less?

I like that classic profile SOOOOOO much!

And just to be sure I understand this absolutely correctly, a guy can get a 4 bore, falling block, single shot, single barrel wood stocked rifle at a weight of about 26 pounds for no more than $2500 dollars, U.S. funds, correct?

If I wanted a quarter rib, the three recoil reducers that's about how much extra?

Thanks guys, this is really sounding very cool.

Just as an advisory, I'm off the computer after tonight till Nov 12 as the family and I are going to Disney in Florida.

More rifle money going into expendatures other than rifles... (married, with children, I'm sure many of you can relate)

http://www.brennekeusa.com/

ed...have you seen these brenneke supersabots???

they look to be bade for the 12gfh...

They do look neat. I like that expansion setup
with the hardcore. That would be mean on Hogs
at 2400 out of NEF, or better 3 grand out of the Savage, or a sausage making 4 grand
out of Rob's Borchardt. Also those are the sabot cups Lefteris in Greece needs.
I think those cups are made in his backyard so to speak.I emailed him about them.
Brenneke factory loads are about 1500 fp.
In a plastic case, in the 3" NEF, our 4759
load at 1900 plus, would be devastating.
I had bunch new plastic cases given me and
I will have IMR 4759 loads sent out next
week to test pressures, with 3 inch cases
and 600gr Dixie.ED.

Why is the SuperSabot better than other saboted slugs?
Experience
No one has as much experience and know how in slugs as BRENNEKE. Wilhelm Brenneke invented the modern shotgun slug in 1898. None of those who tried to copy our slugs has ever succeeded. When it comes to knockdown power and accuracy, Brenneke is in a class of its own.

Diameter
Bigger is better - the SuperSabot has a before expansion diameter of .63 inch. Competitors slugs are between .50 and .57. Bigger is simply better! And, with an after impact diameter of 1.0 inch, the SuperSabot sets a new unrivaled standard in shotgun slug performance.

Bigger is better- ask yourself: why is the .45 ACP the best self defense cartridge in the world? Countless cases have proven the far superior stopping power of the slower but fatter .45 ACP vs. the smaller but faster 9 mm Luger. Bigger is simply better. Exactly the same applies with shotgun slugs. And with a diameter of 1†after impact, the SuperSabot sets a unrivaled new standard in diameter and area. After all, its still the diameter of the hole that matters.

Stopping Power
The SuperSabot gives the phrase "Drop Dead Performance" a new meaning. Countless hunts have proven that even a 500 lb. wild boar drops on the spot from a SuperSabot. A quick, clean kill is what everyone is after. And even after a less than perfect shot, the SuperSabots large 1.0 inch expansion ensures an easy to follow blood trail. Unparalleled is the low disruption of valuable meat around the wound channel.

Precision
Fuzzy designed slugs may look cool, but their precision is far from being satisfying. You cant fool physics. That’s why we gave the SuperSabot a highly aerodynamical shape like a rifle bullet. Its unique construction gives you the advantages of an impact opening bullet without the disadvantages of an unaerodynamical hollow point. Only the SuperSabot combines this unique combination of knockdown power and accuracy in a new cutting edge design.


they should turn the lever action shotgun into a good dgr!

an expanding solid with a pilot!

I get questions on other forums,
about whether the IMR 4759
loads aren't to high pressure.Even for NEF.
Well in Nef the REM factory Buckhammer
slug load, expands the base of the case
more than my 90gr, 4759 load. And I get
more speed, in the same kind of
Rem case.And pressure testing will tell us
for sure what we have wrought..Ed.

The Savage with original barrel will handle
the 4759 80 gr load, 600gr slug. maybe more.
Use 2 & 3/4" or 3" case. Nice thing about
2 & 3/4" is the low base Win AAs. Lowbase
handle heavy loads nice and that base
don't stick as easy.Tom related to me they
tested AAs at 55k and didn't hurt test
gun, just put crack in rim and extruded
some of the plastic out in a thin ribbon.
His breech like the breech I have on 700 test
barrel can't let go even if case splits,
or pressure goes way up.
I had to see how good 700 case is today
and shot 850 gr, 200gr BD. Slug come apart
and Chamber and screw on breech fine,
primer dimpled, Case is fine,
resized ok.I got chamber just right.Ed

Got a note that a good action for hot
12ga loads is the Tarhunt.They are
strong. Expensive. Got to check on how heavy their barrels are.Ed

Gentleman, ? are all shotgun primers created equal??? As in is any one brand better? Thanks

I use CCI mag 209 primers.In Hodgdons test
these and Fed were strongest.I am working on
scaling up falling block to handle
700NE, 600Ne. 12ga FH, etc.We wanted to go to bigger 4bore size copy of Wickcliffe
but the short hammer carried on the breech
is too light to fire big primers.and hammer spring can't be made heavier either.So I am
drawing one scaled up to 12ga and 700NE size.
If used with our 12ga FH case wil lhave to have
primer bushing........
SO- today the boy and I set up a mill.
And we along with old machinist guy couple miles away will build a model scaled up with
basic action and breech block designed to work with lever,toggle link. 1.25" barrel thread.

And for the 4bore size falling block, the
HSFB, 1.5 barrel thread, 2' wide action we
will combine a little from Stevens 44 1/2,
Ruger #1, Win 85, Sharps highpower falling
block. The Wickcliff copies a lot in its breech
from the Stevens.We will use a big hammer in the rear of action with heavy springs,
to fire big primers. Half cock safety.Those
we appropriated from other break actions and
along with trigger and a lever are on
the way from
Gun Parts.Have to then only build a minimum of parts.Will be able to use 4bore HSFB
action for my 700HE with big primers, my
900, 20 mm, 12ga FH big primers....Ed.

Good on you Ed. Try and focus on the big one for a week or so.

Call me crazy, but after seeing SafariKid's four bore, I really need one. I understand that short of winning the lottery I will likely not ever have that kind of jingle in my britches. That is okay, because I CAN have about 99% of that "Rock me baby, rock me baby, all night long!!", from a single shot version.
Just think of all the fun taking it to the range every trip with you, and when the yappers start talking about their big boomers, you casually pull the 4B out and offer them the ballistic equivalent of a fifth of Everclear!

Rich

Got the design figured out, and found most
small parts needed at Gun Parts, for
very little. Tom needs a bunch of hammers
for Wickcliffe and it's hard getting them made
at an affordable price.Or giving the caster
people 6 grand for a mold.It is an odd shape
and the spring and spring bolt goes through
the middle of it, and spring bolt and hammer
mount inside breech block.That's why the HSFB
wil have a simple big hammer in frame back of block.Ed