45LCshooter, Thanks tried the Ballistic Products people already they have discontinued there 20ga sabot. They were not able to turn me on to a resource for their former supplier. Have asked others and have been tod they provide product exclusively to big name ammo manufacture's under contract and the big boys tell me they can not resell there supply under terms of there supply contract. I was told early on that the big boys would not be friendly.

Rob that is a work of art.

Are the cartridges 3.5" or longer?
If they are longer than 3.5" did that pose any problem like the length of the action or chamber reaming?
Who made the barrel for it?
What kind of accuracy are you getting at 100 yards?

what velocity would a standard 12 ga 3.5 in chamber over under be able to acheve with hard bullets of apropriate weight for your loads.

more to the point If i have a short follow up gun made in 12 ga 3.5 in what would this case do for me.

Ed, if you were to load them in the process of your development effort, when you do the .510 HE, I would be a player for 40 or so, particularly if they had the appropriate headstamp! Will also be interested in a comparable quantity of the .710 HE.

poor man's 600 has been on the back burner; had been shooting nitro-for-black and duplex loads: 500 gr minis at 1800 fps and 900 gr paper patch at about 1300. Not very adventureous but when the reloading shed cools, i may do some more.

My cases are 3.85 inches in length and hold a good 325 grs of powder over a 1000 gr bullet. There is also the 3.5 inch 12 GaFH short thats more appropriate for most std 12 Ga actions like the encore or NEF. Accuracy is amazingly good in my Borchard Rifle. I've gotten one ragged hole at 50 yrds offhand and can wack a 6 inch gong at will at 100 yrds. Lost one gong two weeks ago from the impact! It will drive the solids clear through 1/2 mild steel at that range. Two shots and dead gong!-Rob

Testing RL-25 in Savage, with long case--Got 730 gr
hardened cast slug to 2400 plus with 300 gr RL-25.
Full load. Bottom of cases don't need sizing.
730 gr hard slug goes 3/4 through 5 ft bundle
of hardwood.Ed

Testing Savage with long case-Got 2550 with
320gr WC-855H special ball.730 gr slug.
As posted and mentioned above same slug,
300gr of RL-25 got 2400. 300 gr of RL-22
got 2800. 280 gr of W-760 ball got 2900. Will hold more 760, but pressures around 40k on last
two loads mentioned.Savage extracts easy,
bellers like a tank gun.Ed

Big bores are fun. This one is really
a blast. The new Dixie X-terinator slug
is real light colored due to new lube, which works great. To get a reading evertime over chrono I had to blacken nose and groove of slug,
as its whiteness wouldn't be read by chrono reliably over 2600.Works great now.And to
get a powder that gave 10,000 ft lbs, 730 gr slug, minimum base expansion I blended one, I
called WC855H. 2/3 WC 860 and 1/3 AA2700 or
H380. Those two are the same and 100% perfect
sperical, where 860 is flattened sperical, so mixing is easy. To go slower I use 860 or
RL25. To go faster I use RL22 or W760.Ed

Shot NEF with the RL-25 load, 600 gr.Got 3
shots in 4 inches at 50 yds, with aperture sights and my bad eyes.Got barrel extension
made and will get it on in next couple weeks.
NEF and Original Sav barrel have same twist and grooves, so I am putting heavy part of
left over barrel to good use.I hate shorty barrels.Ed

Ok- Karl and I got a commitment and price
quote from HAWK on jacketed .729(12g), 1000 gr
slugs. Either .045 or .050 jackets, soft
point, $2.10 each payable up front, as they will have to make dies and tooling. Need minimum of 1000 to start and Karl will
go for 250, I'll get a 150(I have big bunch
Dixies).Others on here wanted some so let me know and I'll let Hawk know and you can send order and pmt to them after we get a 1000 or
more lined up.Need commitment for 600 more
as of now.They can make them lighter on
a later run, but first guys wanting them want heavier.Ed.

Ok- We are getting a big 1887 lever 12ga
to run tests on, and hop up for brass cases.
This is new replica and was tested to over
40,000 psi with 12ga base size cases.
Pretty hairy levergun to do that.
It is smoothbore and will test
Dixies new slug set up for smoothbore.
If barrel isn't real heavy for our type of
loads, will put on a heavy barrel.Ed

I missed that Ed- Are their reliable data that one of those 1887 lever guns can hold 40Kpsi?-Rob

Company says tested by White Labs;
with triple of the regular 12ga shotgun
powder charge, 3 0z shot. 43k psi. This was
forged heat treated reciever, not cast ones made at first that they rejected.Ed.

Ed,
Your barrel did arrive and I am told it is quite impressive (I think Craig said it was 39 lbs?) but I haven't seen it yet. That's the problem with being is a different state then your gunsmith! We are going to put some sort of cannon breech on it and make it into a modern "wall gun" (complete with swivel mountings) oe a modern "chunk gun" and I am going to buy another barrel from Pac-Nor for the Savage. I talked to CH-4D and they are going to set up to do dies and such (to include a 12 ga rim shell holder) for us. With these outlays I can't afford to buy too many of those fancy jacketed bullets but I'm willing to commit to 100 for now, maybe more if we get really close and need someone to take the order over the top.

quote:

Originally posted by hubel458:
Ok- Karl and I got a commitment and price
quote from HAWK on jacketed .729(12g), 1000 gr
slugs. Either .045 or .050 jackets, soft
point, $2.10 each payable up front, as they will have to make dies and tooling. Need minimum of 1000 to start and Karl will
go for 250, I'll get a 150(I have big bunch
Dixies).Others on here wanted some so let me know and I'll let Hawk know and you can send order and pmt to them after we get a 1000 or
more lined up.Need commitment for 600 more
as of now.They can make them lighter on
a later run, but first guys wanting them want heavier.Ed.

Jason-You and Craig have fun with barrel.
Post pics as you can. With cannon breech
you can run pressures like Rob's
Borchardt. You can put the speed to
the slugs. And for Savage you can have
Pacnor do barrel from 1.5 inch stock saving a bunch on shipping.HahHah. That 39 pounder
is a good muscle builder.
Also thanks for the help in getting
bullet run started by Hawk. That gets us halfway there- some others are figuring what they need, plus others I don't know about yet, so it won't be long and Hawk will be into
real serious bullet making.I want folks to know I only had the one spare barrel. You got
to go to the barrel makers.Ed.

Ed,
Any idea what bullets are going to run after this initial run?

I think they will be about the same.Hawk's
price is pretty good considering that
Martin(PA Bullets) made 700 caliber
1000 grain jacketed for about the
same for me and that Woodleigh charges almost twice a much. That is why with 12GA FH,
I do most shooting with hardened cast at
a third the cost. The machinery to make big jacketed bullets is a small fortune.Ed.

NEI makes a great 1000gr bullet mold of .731 when cast from from Linotype. I agree that cast bullets work really well in the 12 Ga FH.-Rob

I think those bigger hardened 870 grain slugs, (and he even makes heavier if wanted),
Greg Addington makes would handle
buff and grizzlys just fine, as well as the
Dixie 730 gr. In old days they took dangerous animals with slugs that were only cast a little
hard, but these new ones are twice as hard,
due to better understanding of what is needed
to heatreat lead, IE slugs must be held an
hour at proper heat treating temps,a
red glow, after whatever time it takes to get them to the right temp, then quenched.Ed

So basically to make one I would have to buy a Savage 210 shotgun action. Call Lothar Walther to get a 30 inch barrel and get it reamed to handle the 3.85" case. Buy some spent .50 BMG cases. Cut them right at the shoulder. Purchase a series of expanding dies that would expand the shoulder out making it a straight. Put the cartridge on a lathe and cut a section out of the end and cut threads on it. Thread on a shotgun type rim. Preform standard reloading practices to load and prime the cartridge.

What modifications are required to make the bolt action accept the 3.85" cartridge?
What are the dimensions of a .50 BMG compared to the Shotgun case?
How much modification is required to get the .50 BMG to the shotgun dimentions?

I would like to build one but I fear it requires steps which I am incapable of completing. Esspecially the case resizing and modifications to the action of the savage.

Just out of curisosity, does the case of the 20mm happen to come close to the 4 or 8 gauge shotguns making a 4 gauge from hell that meets the sporting use aspect of BATF law.

Basically you have to thread the .50BMG case to accept the 12 Ga Rim section, then fireform the case to full chamber dimensions. I've done it successfully with 60 grs of bulleseye and a cornmeal filled case. Bang ( real loud one at that) and out pops a fully formed ready to go 12 Ga FH case. There are people here who can make you a couple dozen cases and they will last forever. Same for the threaded Rims. Of course you also need reloading dies which are all custom built. The rest of the build of the 12 Ga itself is pretty straight foreward. Depending on how mucg pressure you run, a NEF or TC Encore can be modiefied easily instaed of going bthe savage route. It will kick more though! -Rob

George--Ok; to make our 3.85 inch case
we don't cut the case shorter.We turn off old rim, leaving a stub that we thread,put on 12ga size rim piece.Then cases can go into 12ga FH chamber and be fireformed. Anneal shoulder
and neck of case before fireforming.

To use Savage 210 the port must be lengthened, bottom of reciever milled to make flat surface to set in a heavy stock with steel recoil
block in the stock. Extra recoil lug on a heavy barrel,don't use original stock or barrel.Get a 12ga 1.5 inch minimumum dia barrel blank.
It ends up as singleshot. Have to add spring,&
extra travel to firing pin for bmg primers.
Or put a primer bushing in cases for smal primers.

The base of our case with rim on is .801, bmg base ahead of groove is .800. Regular 12ga case
runs about .805 base.And as above to get case
to our dimensions we fireform.We have to change boltstop. Maybe you should wait see what we do with replica 1887 lever gun 12ga. May be easier.

We are developing a 4bore project using 20 mm brass cases. We slim the base, swage case,
fireform it out and we have 4bore case same as the one that Naval ordnance makes .998 diameter,
2000 gr slugs for. And they used turned cases
but our case will be stronger. These were for
big double rifles Ken Owen custom made.We are waiting on barrel maker to get production started on .998 rifled barrels from a pile of barrel stock.We are going to try to figure out
different affordable actions to have built or adapt.We don't call it a 4bore from hell just a 4bore or 4 gauge.......seeing
as its been done already with turned cases.
And other guys and companies with different actual bore diameters, have done 4bores.
We picked .998 as there is guy making bullets,
our cases came out exactly that way, barrel guy had stock for .998 barrels, and there is guy making turned cases to that size as another case source, there is reloading die
specs set up for it.Ed

Got new 600gr hardened hollow base Dixie
slug made for smoothbores. NEF likes it also,
got 2000 fps with full load(230 gr 855H).
They work for rifled as well as open
choke smoothbores, as they are real hard.
Cases eject easy. More testing with
next faster powder will get about 2200.
That's over 6000 ft lbs from NEF.These are
nice slugs, perfect for deer, flat point,
but meplate only half dia with sloping sides,
so you can get some distance with these,
as they are a little streamlined.Ed.

Hot Damn we got recoil now-Got a 1050 gr
Bridger over 2200 fps in the Savage.
I took the hollow base 750 gr Bridgers
made for me, and wedged in .500 caliber
slugs(I took out of 12ga sabot)in the base.
Added 300 gr. I was going to melt lead and put in, but this was easier about 5 seconds,
after 15 seconds shortening nose on grinder
of .500 slug.I made them up last spring and
finally tested a couple.Ed

Ed-Yup- You definately got recoil now! Thats serious stuff.-Rob

Rob-Fired just one this morning with
W-760.Won't tell how much... as load was
45k by my formula and I promised myself
regular working loads would be kept below
35k psi.. Got over 2400..Just had to
try one. I am for sure going to have someone make me a thickwall reciever
to put Savage bolt, bolt carrier, trigger
assembly on.And a little longer barrel thread
in reciever. The lugs and seats show no
denting with our testing, just need thicker reciever, little more threads.Then we can run
run 50-60k pressures.Ed.

The 1030 gr Bridger at 2200 went
most of the way through
bundle of wood after going though a
couple layers of 1 inch tempered hardwood
and 2 inch thick solid door.The streamlined one
I made with base filled is 940 gr, good for
long range with good penetration.In picture
1st is 1050 gr when base filled, 2nd 940
spitzer style when base weighted. Ed.

Rob wrote in 600 thread about his gun weight-

"24 lbs- Its actually hit 3259fps with 1000 gr bullets. According to my chrono ( sea level corrected). Recoil was SEVERE. I believe I could drive it much higher, if I could survive it.My gun was never designed for the max as is obvious from the pics. With mods, I really believe 3500 fps is acheivable. More weight, recoil absorbers etc will be necessary though. At some point the survival instinct kicks in. I think the 12 Ga FH can achieve that.""

So you can see the great potential of this
size of case.My Savage is a pussycat at the
lower pressures I run, at 25 lbs weight.
All over people ask how I can shoot mine
and I say it is easy, and that they have to try
Rob's at top loads for the fun.
Robs top load so far is over 23,400 ft lbs,
while mine is 14,000.Granted all of these
would be slowed down for hunting, but
for exciting ride and fun, can't be beat.Ed,

A question Rob-
I wonder if the flextech stock design
used on the Encore Pro-hunter could be expanded
to heavier,bigger butt size stock for our type
of guns.They say that idea makes heavy kickers
feel like 410s.Ed.

Ed- we do think alike! I really like that stuff on the Encore and yes it probably is an easy adaptation. It sure would help on the 12 GaFH short.-Rob

Im just wondering.

Could you give a estemation of what you think could be possible to achive by necing up a 338 LM to .510, and shooting 750 A-maxes?


And, the same with a 408 Chey-tac, necked up to .510 with the same bullet.

Think of them as straight as possible (fireformed), but still enough to give good extraction.

This way, you have a similar design to the 12 Ga from hell, and could use almost the same kind of powder, but they would have a small shoulder to headspeace on. Both of these using 28"-34" barrels. What do you think is possible to wring out of both cases?

Necking up LM to 510 bullets with
a small shoulder is similiar
as 500 Mbogo that fellows here are
working on, or the 500 Asq without a belt.
So you'd use Asquare load data.
Necking up 408 Cheytac to 510
with a little bigger shoulder,
is similiar to the original
505 Gibbs, the case was designed from.
And you'd use hopped up 505 data.
Even though shoulders would be small
it still affects the relative quickness
of what powder can be used for max loads.Ed

nortman...

jeffeosso is working on that project named the 50 a.r. do a search

ed...

yes the beltless 500 a2 is my hairbrained idea but i think the 505 version is a tad better if you dont mind the little extra work and the limited 505 bullets.

lets call this colaberation the 505 f.h.

you could still use the a2 loads and have about a .020 step per side

There is a guy working on a fireformed 408 case. He think he might get 2550 using the A-max bullet in a long barrel. 30" or more.

Cheytac brass made by Jamison
being heavier in the base,
compared to older 505 cases, if put in 505 chamber and formed with right powders
you can get 90% bmg performance.
But Jamison now makes heavy base 505 cases,
so any good condition 505 can get 90% of
Bmg performance.Cases already to go in
a cartridge that has guns being built.
Bmg seems to be the benchmark for talking
about what can be done. I got one a kind
Trex beater done. Sorry Art.
Another 4 year project done .Fired 585HE
yesterday, and got 650 gr over 3000, and
750 gr 2800. Both Woodleigh softpoints.
13,000 ft lbs.Case made from nyati, 3.45 in
long, belted, and straight.Good as Bmg.
When the levergun gun gets here in few days
we will put the 12GA FH test to it.Ed

Rob you may like this idea-I am
doing more research at someones suggestion on the
Saiga-12 shotgun. It has strong rotary bolt, and alloy
barrel. Comes 19 and 24 inch smoothbore barrels as far
as what I've seen on their site.Has 3 inch chamber and
Rocky Mtn or a shortened version of our
case should allow velocities like I get with NEF or close to
Savage.. Loading brass cases you would have to crimp
slugs good so no sharp corner interferes with
feeding. It is an autoloader 12ga that is real strong,
and if cases cut back to 2.75 and Dixie style slugs protruding
a 1/4 inch, and crimped nice and round at front of 1st groove
they should feed as good as plastic.Ed

Ed- I really like the semi-auto 12GaFH concept. It kinda fills the gap between the .50BMG and the 20mm Cannon. -Rob

you never know when yer gunna get charged by a herd of pachyderms

ed rob...

have you guys thought of a switch barrel version to accomodate a 36" target range, 24" "hunting" or a shorter version 12gfh?