p.s. what performance can you get out of a 2 3/4" version???

and will reduced loads work in a t.c.???

The TC is 3 inch chamber and working loads are
600 hardened slugs a 1700 to 2000 fps.
2 3/4 inch will get 1550 to 1850.
For reduced slug loads could use factory
like 7/8 oz(370 gr at 1900) or use lesser
amounts of rifle powder with wads to
take up the space.I haven't tested the
reduced loads yet.

As for a super long barrel I will get one as soon as I find one made at an affordable
price.So far they are over twice what
the TC cost.

And speaking of 2 & 3/4 heres the beautiful
1887. In picture is a fired 2.75 case
that was fired in gun by Coyote Cap, a
loaded 2.75 case(loaded it is only
2.41 inches), and our case cut back
with 600 gr hard Dixie slug, at total length
of 2.7 inches. That case works in and out
of the barrel and action. Cases have to be
2.45 inches total to work from magazine.
That can be improved on I think.
Will get loads tested next few days. Gun has short barrel, wt 8 lbs, 1.18 dia barrel at breech( can take 1.25 inch and clear the
mag tube), muzzle .87 in,
action is 1.46 wide at front( wider than
my Savage). A barrel of 1.375 in breech
could be put on with a flat put on the mag tube
near breech. Great looking old style gun.Ed

How does this sound as an idea.
Take a cobb .50 cal or Barrett frame and modify the action to accept rimmed 12 gafh cases. I can't do it because I'm way too broke. Does it sound reasonable? If you went with a barrett, you could get semi-automatic fire at max. loads.

George- If I could afford one of them I'd
try it to see how it works to,and also
use for my 700HE Belted.
I need action to test my 700.

I personally am a singleshot nut.
And I really like the 87.
After I test 87 with cases short enough for
magazine, and let others interested in getting them know what cases and loads to use,
I try to get extra one up as a single shot
with long barrel and our long case. I can
single feed a long case in and extractors pulls
it out and up where I can grab it by the
base, remove, and feed
in another.The lifter on short cases kicks them out but on long cases lifts them just above extractors so easy to grab them and pull
out of barrel.They don't kick out as there is 1/2 inch of case still in chamber and base
is laying on the breech face, as the rolling block breech when pivoted
open is down out of the way.Neat gun
like the Greener.And it locks on the back
of breech against back of
the action like a Greener.Ed

Ed
Do you think the 87 is stronger than the Greener or about the same?

416SW- The original cast 1887 actions
little less strength I think
than Greener 12 which is cast.. This forged
heat treated 87 replica is stronger. I am suggesting to Coyote Cap they get China making
a Greener replica. That would realy
be nice. Ed

daggone you Ed!! I have been as happy as a pig in mud this time of year until you mentioned the 1887 levergun.
I was getting nearly 2000fps with a Lyman Sabot Shocker slub/shot cup set up from my Savage and sub-2" groups at 100Yds. It's a lightweight slug (same weight as 1 1/8oz shot load)at 530gr out of 20:1. Now I got to take a sefcond mortgage on the house and get one of these 87's and a rifled barrel, dies, etc.

regards,

Rich

Idaho-You are using original barrel/chamber on
Savage right. That is great power right from factory.The 87 isn't too costly, To get one
that been massaged to feed fast for cowboy
action shooting and is fancied up a
little is $636......Today I got 600gr over
1650 fps with 20 in barrel, ball powder load,
35k pressures.Using our shortened case
with bullet seated flush to feed from mag.
That takes away a lot of powder space.
With the right setup, IE, a 30 inch barrel it would be 1850 plus. And get weight up.Has
a bead front sight. Get a ramped front site
on long barrel, and a vernier peep tang sight.
Be just the balls.Ed

thanks for the kind words Ed...

I am considering cutting the hollow base pin down to make for thicker sidewalls on the slug, and up the weight a little. I think with a heavier slug I can still move to 2000fps safely. If my calculator doesn't lie there are 437.5gr per ounce. If I can take the slug up from 530gr to maybe 710gr, that's
1 5/8oz, and crack 2000fps that is a significant gain in ME. The mould mikes .578" OD and the hollow base pin is just .477" at the base. The skirt is just .050" thick. I have blown a few skirts at 1800+fps. I may have to cut about 1/10" off the pin and see where that takes me for weight. Let me pour some 20:1 and see where we set.

regars,

Rich

http://www.legendaryguns.com/Norinco%201887%20LeverShotgun.htm



so haw fast will that 2 3/4" 12gfh go in this replica???

Boomstick-1600-1700, in short barrel.
Got that today with ball powder.Long
heavy barrel which is in the works, couple
hundred feet more.Now I could go higher
with rifle powders, but barrel muzzle isn't
heavy enough.And to get cases to feed from mag they are cut back to 2.45 inches, the same length that regular 2 3/4 plastic shell are when they are crimped. They measure 2.75 when fired.With heavy longer barrel the 2.45 case
will get over 2000 with 600 gr slug, where there is no danger of spliting muzzle.
I keep track of Muzzle pressures by using my Mean Barrel Pressure Chart in reverse, after
I get Chrono reading and use Vel formula.Ed

Wow!!!!
the things we "know" that aren't true list just got an addition reading Ed's last post. I always thought/knew that a 2 3/4" shotgun shell measured that length loaded...never thought to actually measure one...just "knew" that was it's length unfired. I am sitting here with a trap load and it measures 2.30". I am always buying odd and end things at gunshows. In April I bought a box of Ten all brass 12ga shells made by Giulio Riocchi, LECCO, and they measure
2 3/4".

Ed, would these work with a full wadcutter slug?
I have a friend that shoots cowboy action shooting, and he uses an original M87 with the Mag-Tech 2 3/4" all brass shells. They seem to feed fast and flawlessly. Should I be looking at a WC mould and leave them FL?

regards,

Rich

I can't get a 2 3/4 to feed in this one yet.
It is too tight and no slop in the feed and lifter parts. 2.45 with 600gr Dixie seatet flush works. I like to get it to feed longer
as that would make load developement easier.
I will see what can be done to make
2 3/4 inch feed.The Dixies are like a
wadcutter and they work smooth
loaded flush.I tried
extending them out a little in the 2.45 inch
case to 2.70 total length and nose of slug
catchs on the bottom of barrel when being
lifted. There is a little slant there to help
get front of case up to chamber level, from
when the front of case leaves the magazine.
We will see what can be done.Ed

You guys need to meet my wife. She thinks I'm crazy. After meeting you she'll change her tune .

Sounds like you are on the edge for a laminated stock. You're going to splinter everything else.

I have a buddy in North Carolina that makes laminated stocks. He's a benchrest guy, but knows what the hell he's doing. And he's a good ole boy to boot. Bill Shehane.

I introduced Bill and his bench rest gang to the 50 BMG. A Barrett semi auto. They scoffed and sneered, but by the end of the day they were all smiles. Shooting milk jugs at 600 yards (the x@#%$^#'S didn't explode, the rounds went right through them) and old tractor parts at 700 yards.

You are into some of the damdest recoil I ever heard of. Go for it!

Jim--Your only partly "insane" as a
50cal shooter,but really insane are Rob and I,
Jeffes Texas Hog Shooters, Tailgunner here in MI(He shot a 10,000 ft lb load in Savage
12GA Fh like it was a 243), Safarikid
and some others on here.
And I've got stocks, glued, screwed, bedded,
with through bolts, wrist bolts, extra lugs,
recoil plates,about anything you can think of to keep them together.Ed

Shot 12 double ought buckshot in 1887.
That's 624 grains worth. Used short
2.45 inch case that feeds from magazine.
Used fast ball powder, getting about
1500 fps. Further testing on 600 gr
hardened slug got 1700.That is in short
20 in barrel. Comparing this short case
with the 3.07 inch case I use in NEF there
is an inch difference in length of powder
column so it takes faster powder with
10k more pressure in 87 to get same velocities as in NEF. But the 1887 handles it fine.
It takes as much pressure as my Savage
in its present form.Ed

quote:

Originally posted by hubel458:
Jim--Your only partly "insane" as a
50cal shooter,but really insane are Rob and I,
Jeffes Texas Hog Shooters, Tailgunner here in MI(He shot a 10,000 ft lb load in Savage
12GA Fh like it was a 243), Safarikid
and some others on here.
And I've got stocks, glued, screwed, bedded,
with through bolts, wrist bolts, extra lugs,
recoil plates,about anything you can think of to keep them together.Ed

Oh!! The possibilities if MRC makes the actions with your specs! I'd love to see the first duggaboy slain with your cart!

I got Rocky Mtn turned 12ga cases, and am
developing loads. Theyare 2 7/8 inches
long are for use in NEF and shortened
in 1887. These cases have shotgun
primers. Now these caes with shotgun primers and the two cases of ours we put small primers in don't fire the slow rifle powder loads
reliably,like cases with bmg primers.
Our testing is with 600 hardened Dixie slugs.
So I have and am testing slow shotgun powder and fast rifle.I tested 5 shotgun powders and
the primers fires then ok but the quick peak pressure when loads increased to get velocity
wanted in NEF caused too much case expansion just ahead of the base.Cases ejected of but
that expansion and resizing will ruin cases
in a couple shots.These cases have a real thick base, and are machined to glass smooth finish.
I now testing AA1680 Ball and it looks good.
Have got loads up to 105 gr with 2 wads in
the Rocky Mtn case, and only .002 expansion
of case ahed of base. Will chrono next and
expect it to get velocity we want in NEF.
Nice thing about this testing is that same loads will work in shortened 87 case by just
using less wad column.I must confess that this
blind testing shotgun powders is the wildest thing I've done in my wildcatting. Ed

Testing Rocky Mtn cases in NEF.Got 1850 fps
with 125 gr AA 1680 and 132gr of RE-7.
Cases are 2.9 after 3 firings. AA 1680
load had .135 card wad and 2 1/2 in lubed felt
wads, and RE-7 load had same card and
a 1/2 and a 1/4 lubed wad. Re-7 less dense.
Base expansion ahead of thick base was
.002 to .003 and resized without huge effort.
The base is .300 thick, case has shotgun primers. By the way I put primers in with
bmg primer post. Work good. Now will cut back
some cases for the 87 levergun.About same
loads used in NEF minus wads should do.
Will get little less velocity in 20 in bbl.
But I will have loads figured out for
a bunch of guys here and in Australia.
I also feel now that have I found loads that
get velocity without a huge expansion, to
the turned cases that good low base plastic
will do the same velocity, in strong alloy
barreled guns. I have complete Hollywood
12ga setup so I may test plastic with slugs.
Plastic wouldn't do for real hairy in Savage.
And the 87 is going to have a long barrel,
as fast as possible, which is still slow
process.Ed

ed,

in the 1887...how about 500 gr 500 s&w bullet in a sabot...should get 2150 ish dont you think???

Boom Stick. I am expecting about
1700 with 600 gr, when I test it.
But with 500 sabot,short barrel and
turned case not quite 2150....Could with
one of our cases cut back to feed from mag.
Or with a 30 in long barrel, and turned case.
Sabot takes away from powder capacity,
so going to faster shotgun powder
to get more power from shorter space will expand
turned cases to much. Our cases would hold
fast powder loads.I think it could get
a 400 gr in a sabot that fast. The shorty
barrel complicates everything in the
load developement process.

Good news-First tested 87 levergun.
Using Rocky Mtn cases cut back.Cut case
back to length that feeds from magazine,
2.45 in. That is about max length of any
loaded and crimped 2.75 case.Got 600gr to 1600
with 20 in barrel.100 gr of RE-7.No squib loads.
Cases eject good, expanded a little
ahead of base .003, resize ok.Now the second
good news. Seeing as how these non traditional
powders used in shotgun didn't expand the
turned cases a lot( in our cases made from
bmg brass it took over 10 loads to expand
bases enough to need sizing)............
I figured time to check plastic cases.
Plastic cases took the same load as turned
brass in 1887 and the NEF.100 gr RE-7 in
1887(It wouldn't hold anymore without
a lot of compression) and
140 gr in NEF. Tested Fed,Win,Rem,highbase,
and low base. So you guys out there
who want to get the power that NEF and
1887 are able to deliver use good plastic
cases as a way to get started with
600 gr slugs.You don't need heatreated
for those speeds just hard cast
from wheel wts.. Win AA 2 & 3/4 best for 1887.
It is lowbase and easiest to resize.
To get potential(extra 200 fps) it needs a long barrel.They made long barrels in original.
I used federal 3 inch case in Nef.By the way modern plastic cases have steel bases with
copper plating so they are strong.
But due to the extractor cutouts in
the 87 don't go over 100gr Re-7
until you get heavy barrel. I tried
one of the fast shotgun powders, that
previously expanded the brass
turned case to much, in plastic cases in
NEF and at 50 gr case was sticking
and had expanded quite a bit, but same
case with 140gr RE-7 popped out easy,
and resized easy.
Never could find use for RE-7 till now.
A was biased against plastic cases.....
have a better appreciation now.

And more testing today with plastic
noticing the muzzle blast, tells
me that you get an 87, put on long heavy barrel, use RE-7 type loads and 2100 plus
will be possible, with plastic cases being able to take a few reloads.IE, getting loads that
don't expand and stick cases also allows
for a bunch of reloads.Ed

Shooting 600 gr Dixie Hardened slugs--
Working up RE-7 loads
A federal 3 in case shot 6 times in NEF looks
good like new. Same for a Remington
2.75 case fired 5 times in the 87.
On the 87 I got to do a 'rifleman' to the
lever, as my big fingers get beat up
on heavy recoil.I added a thick slip on pad,
as it came a solid buttplate.Coyote Cap
makes a fancy one with massaged feeding
wider, taller buttstock and big thick pad.Ed

Ed- How much do you recon a 1887 can take?-Rob

Rob-It will do good or better as Savage,
pressure wise if it gets heavy longer barrel.
Which i will be doing. I'm keeping
loads in 87 down due to
thin muzzle. That means with long
heavy barrel you get a 600gr
at 21-2200 with 2.75 chamber and cases that feed from magazine.A 730 gr at 2000.
And will do it with our cases cut back
with bushing in for shotgun/large rifle primer,
Rocky Mtn cases and good plastic cases.
The latter a huge surprise to me, but nice
as cases are easier to get.
The Rocky Mtn cases expand .002 - .003
It takes a few loads to expand our
shortened case.I have fast rifle powder that
will get to 24-2500 with our case in the
87, but must have long large dia barrel.
And the Rocky Mtn and plastic cases, if
used in that load in a heavy barrel would
stick like the case did when they
run high pressure test on the 1887 at 43k.

The loads with turned case in 87 levergun
with 110 gr RE-7, from my formula and
mbp chart is about 22-23k.That is for Rocky Mtn "ONLY". Case extracts ok... For plastic
90 gr of RE-7 max, until you get heavy
barrel, as cases bulge right next to
rim in two spots opposite each other
with more than 90 gr of RE7, due to the way breech end of barrel is cutout for extractors. Plastic case extracts and resizes
real easy at that level. When we use
heavy barrel we will remove less metal for
extractors.I had bulged spot leak a little
black soot, so I figure guys keep loads with plastic and original barrel, back a little.
And don't use AA1680 at all in plastic..Ed

Fired plastic half dozen times
in NEF and 87, with RE-7 loads. Still
look ok. But we don't have to as cases are
just pennies each. To use with hotter loads resize and fire once and throw them away.
Hotter loads up to a point depending
on powder and bullet wt, will still extract
but base is hard to size down with regular
shotgun reloading stuff.The turned cases
act the same way. My hollywood dies
take both down ok, but have to use top lever
punch to push cases out of die.I have dies
open on the top just for that use. .So
for hot loads getting over 2000 in NEF
it's easier to get 5 cent good used plastic,
size once, fire and throw away.I don'r recommend hot loads in 87 with rifle
powders due to thin muzzle, and extractor
cutouts. 90 gr Re-7 max. And heavy long
barrel for 87 be here in 3-4 weeks.Ed

Hello Ed and All! Well, I see you are still pushing the bar higher......excellent! I am also pleased that Ole' Dixie's slug/bullets are working out for you. We are getting good feed back on all our loads going out.
As you know Dixie's entire concept is hard cast heat treated slug/bullets....no sabots etc.
John Linebaugh/Todd Corder finished testing the 20 bore-625"-500 gr Youth load (1200'/") and the results look very good....posted on Dixie Slugs forum. The regular load at 1400+'/" looks even better......Regards To All, James@Dixie Slugs

James- I put spitzer point on a Dixie 600
and getting weight down to 500 gr.
It got 3800 fps in Savage, 16,000 ft lbs.
Used 350 gr of fast ball powder blend.
And barrel is still mirror clean the faster
I shoot them the cleaner the barrel.
That new thin lube and your heatreating
is doing the job.Ed

Thanks for the feedback, Ed! I would have Steve @ Victory Molds cut me a high Ballistic Spitzer, but the sales would only be interesting to those putting the slug/bullet is a brass hull.
And.....most do not realize how expensive a lathe cut production mold in 12 ga costs now......when you can find a mold maker cut one that large. The blocks must be larger in order not to burn out.
Regards, James@Dixie Slugs

James-Your 600gr is streamlined great as it is
for deer hunting 150-200 yds, in NEF. More at velocities I use in Savage.The 500 gr testing,
I wanted to see how fast it will go without
leading and what the Savage will take,
in this case about 40-45,000 psi. Ed

Ed and the Terminaotr,

are we ready for a "little" brother to the 12 GA FH yet?
These 505 Gibbs cylindrical cases are 3.185" long on average. Trim to 3.15oal, do your rim thing like on the 50 BMG brass and make a 20GA FH...or would it be 20 Gauge from Purgatory? I am thinkin perhaps a 900gr slug around 2650...?

Rich
What if the Hokey-Pokey IS what it's all about...?

Well now......Ole' Dixie has a .625"-500 gr hard cast heat treated solid ready to test. We have had it tested at 1200+'/" and 1400+'/" and it flys! Our present load, and the one we ship, is over 1400'/" from the NEF Ultra 22" barrel....James@Dixie Slugs

Idaho-The Gibbs case is close to diameter
of 28 gauge.And 28 gauge is 550 bore.
The 600 NE is close to 20ga. I found easy way to test plastic cases. Doing a roll crimp
it's is neccessary to have slug exactly at right place so it won't move. This is
done using wads etc, and it takes time.
And getting a good roll crimp from a case
that was star crimped is a pain.. So I
remove the crimped part of the case, put
in powder, card, wads if needed, and slug.
In most plastic, slug doesn't make a tension
fit like in brass. So we put pressure on slug down inside the case and use glue gun.Slugs
stay put and along with card give proper resistance so powder builds full preesure and
no squib loads.A 3.5 inch 12ga case with
crimped part gone is 3.05 just right for
3 in NEF.Ed.

This all has been a lot of danm fun, but you nust understand I have been in this game for 40 years!
Now.....Dixie has two molds for 20 bore.....one is owr blunt nose and the other is an exact copy of the original 20 bore Paradox slug/bullet.
Up front, let me say that Dixie caters to hunters and people like Ed!......no Sabots, only full bore slug/bullets!
I love big big hard cast slug/bullets like the Brits used in Africa/India!
Ed as pushed the standards high and few appreciate what he has done.....Dixie Does, in Spades!
I have got to say this!....I think the .625" slug/bullet has been overlooked in the mad rush in shotgun only states! I assure you it has not been overlooked in all-gun states. I hope Ed gets arounds to playing with the .625" in the NEF Ultras....Best Regards, James@Dixie Slugs

Let me take a minute to thank James of Dixie Slugs, I think he is offering an invaluable service Ed likely could not get anywhere else.

That said, I am curious as to if they make one that measuress aobut .595" by some chance...?

Just curious you see...

Rich

At present we have three production bullets at .730" and two at .625", all hard cast lead/antimony heat treated, Alox washed......james@Dixie Slugs

And if you want to hop up the 20 a little,
Rocky Mtn makes cases for that also.
A poor mans 600 so to speak. Or you can get
600NE brass and I run it through my case
spinner/lathe with multi-faceted lathe
cutter and in 3 min it is a 3 inch 20 ga
case that will take more pressure, using
heavy barreled gun like NEF 20 ga, than
turned case or plastic. Ed

Tested 1050 gr in Savage. Got 2600 fps,and
cracked the ole stock. Repaired ok for lesser
loads, and will whittle a big thumbhole one
out of a big blank I have here.

Working on 87, got wt to 12 lbs, with long barrel will be about 14-15. Took out barrel.
It has 1.1 x 26 threaded shank, .8 inches
long. Bigger than PH and many others. I think
heavy barrel will be great in it.Ed.

A lot of guys like to use Reloader-12,15,19.
In Savage & NEF with full length case,
a full case of RE-15 is to fast, but
about half full will do and just fill up
space with wads, felt or plastic. I got deal on
about a bushel of wads and cards and will get loads figured out.. I
am putting long chamber in the NEF,
the long case is so great
and trouble free at
NEF pressures we may never have to resize
lower half of the case.Ed.

I'm doing a long chamber in the NEF. Just lengthening
the present 3 inch chamber .The base size of
the regular chamber in NEF is max dimensions,
and in my Savage I have a smaller minimum size.
It works great with long case. So for brass
use in the NEF I honed out a base die bigger to
match NEF size, then it won't over work brass
and it maybe only will need sizing once in every 20 shots, and with the proper fit resizing will be easier, due to
lesser amounts of expansion.A benefit
of proper chamber to brass to resize
die dimensions.And for the other cases,
my other base die does Savage.Same
top die will do both top halves.
The only loads that expanded long cases
are the 14-17,000 ft lb ones. And Nef
being only 15 lbs in weight won't have
that hairy of loads fired through it.Ed