warning to all in the box thinkers, boomie haters and non wildcat enthusiasts...please leave now...o.k. fair warning.

the 500 a.r. will be the best standard action 500 and this does not improve on it but in one way...it will need the least amount of smithing.

the idea is to make a belt on rum brass or have new unique brass made (yes verrry expensive and labor intensive) this in essence will be a mini or scale down version of the 550 magnum or 550 express in fact it could be called the 500 express but that might be confusing.
the idea is to not increase the casehead but the .550 casehead would now become the belt dia. and have a 7 thousandths belt cut in or formed. this could be done and headspaced off the mouth but i think a belt would be better.
the performance goal would be 600@ 2150 for old school 500 nitro express performance in a standard win mag donor action with minimal modification and moderate preasure

here she is...the rum brass necked up to .510" and trimmed to 2.6" for a 3.34 oal with this 570 grain solid



here we have it next to a 500 nitro


500 max with cross sectioned rum brass and brass with crude belt cut in


the line up with the mini-max for a short action on the far right

a close up of the rum brass cross section


and 5 min with a bastard file will get you this...a crude belt


anyways...sorry for the fuzzy pics...



the same can be done for a long magnum action but then why not just do a 500 asquare...call it the mega-max.

the easy thing is 3 down no problem. no feeding issues other than normal ones with belted carts. no headspace issues, same bolt face. other than the normal wildcat issues the only problem is turning belts on a lathe or custom brass. not a small thing i admit but hey...it would be the perfect 500

also...

the same thing can be done obviously with the 404 brass.

the advantage of the 404 brass will be no rebate and you can headstamp whatever you want to but the bolt face is larger and not standard and the brass is more expensive...

it is easy to get 404 basic brass though and make the belt.


obviously the necking up of the 404 will be the easiest...

the more i think of it the 2.85" full length 404 version is growing on me...

being it would have a belt it is a "new" brass design and therefore boom stick pattented

the full length 500 mega max would hold about 120 grains and the max over 110
f.y.i.

The base you just did is similiar
to my real long 458HE belted base case
I made cases from 450NE brass with rims
turned off and groove cut, which made base same as 404 only they were real long and basic cases, and I also found a bunch of long
Bell cases with 404 base from Ross. 10 years
ago been done.My case is 3.45", max 9000 ft
lbs.Could be shortened to whatever and be
a 470 or 475. On my case spinner lathe and
a swage die(and expander) I could do some
RUMs into that and the belt would be perfect.
My belt is .543, base .527. From a RUM
case, base should be .532-.536 and
belt .546-.550 depending on what cases
are really mearuring. Some measure different
than what som list as regular specs..
Full length with swaging and expanding would
end up 2.90 plus if wanted and it would outdo
ASQ with powders I use.Ed

good stuff ed...

i dont have a lathe...could you make a couple cases i could use as dummies???

the 404/rum case dimensions are perfect for regular guns and with the belt now able to have a 500 nitro power gun out of a win mag!

the longer version is more of a good thing too.

let me know. thanks

Boom-I can't make them by shortening my
cases with a 510 cal bullet as case mouth
ends up bigger than the base, with
the bullet put in. Side of brass is too
thick and I think good 404 brass may be
too thick also,. I expanded one and tried it
and measured .535.The Rum brass being a little
bigger on the base and perhaps thinner on
the top will be needed. What did your sample case you made measure at the mouth with
a .510" bullet in it? ED

i dont have a mic or calipers handy but i will try to measure tomorrow. it looks like a 20 thou diff between the casehead and neck. i will guess the neck is about .530" and the casehead .550"

i have just about mangled all my rum brass but i will see if i can send you a couple pieces if you can "belt" them.

with a belt it will be basicly a straight belted case...if the belt is bumped up a few thou over the 550to 555 that would be best.

the neck is fine with the rum brass...

if we can form a belt instead of cutting one that would be ideal but for the sake of a dummy it does not matter.

Boomie,

you may have already read this, but George Nonte took 30-06 brass and swaged a belt on it in about six steps...and created the 240Wby case about a hundred years ago. You would reduce the case diameter by roughly the amount of belt thickness you create. Mike a 30-06 and a 240 to check that.

Rich
DRSS

swaging would be better for strength. i have a 240 case here..it is exactly what i am looking for in a belt.

o.k. there is an 18 thou diff between the neck and base...
.535" and .553"

so to make it work we can split the diff. to a 9 thou belt and 9 thou taper unless the swaging

to get better taper or belt the 505 bullets could be used.

any input???

Boom-PM or call me.I can do them for you.
You say the base is .553. Is that just
ahead of the belt. My cartridge book doesn't
show RUM cases that big.ED.

as soon as i can find some more rum brass i will forward them to you. does anyone have a few used rum cases handy???i am out. let me know... thanks

I've got some new .338 RUM brass that has only been trimmed and necked turned.

I abandoned the chambering... probably have 10-12 if you want them, send me your address.

rum brass is usualy .547-9 and i haven't seen it over .550.

with a .500 bullet, rather than .510, you'll have double the headspace

thanks fireball!

jeffe...

the calipers i was using were not very good but there was an almost 20 thou diff between the neck and casehead. the brass i was using was federal.

also the 500 does have its merrits and being this is more of a mass vs velocity cart, custom cast bullets and 500 s&w bullets would be cool but the 510 does have more appeal if it is doable and maybe the 505 is the happy medium...we wll see after ed's help. thanks again ed.

http://www.reloadammo.com/ranger-rick-bullet.htm

those 700 grain bullets look cooooool

700 grains from a pistol! That's gotta penetrate!
PS it's SD is .400!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

that load could go through a brick wall and kill anything behind it even @ 1200 fps.

i think even if this can only work with 500 or 505 it will be amazing to load 3 down in a win mag and 4 down in a magnum c.z. action

sooo i need to rename them 500 505 and the 510 max, mini max and mega max so there is no confusion beyond what already is inherent.

the 500 minimax is a way cool idea for short actions that will be on par with the 50-110 in power. great for brownies up close.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
that load could go through a brick wall and kill anything behind it even @ 1200 fps.

i think even if this can only work with 500 or 505 it will be amazing to load 3 down in a win mag and 4 down in a magnum c.z. action

sooo i need to rename them 500 505 and the 510 max, mini max and mega max so there is no confusion beyond what already is inherent.

the 500 minimax is a way cool idea for short actions that will be on par with the 50-110 in power. great for brownies up close.

Yep! There'd be a slim chance of bullet recovery. Unless you always shoot'em with a bank of clay behind them!

If a 454 Cassull can harvest a rhino that badboy would be a "whale" killer!

o.k. cleaned up the dummy round and put a belt on it...just for looks. we will have to wait till ed gets some rum brass to play with to get pre production model...this is just a mock up.

not a bad look'n cart...

500 nitro power is a barrel swap away for the adventurous with a win mag or 7 mag.

what is the minimum neck brass thickness we can do??? 10 thou? 12 thou?

to have a 1" long "neck" that means there will be less than 1 1/2" of body to taper...

assuming a 550 casehead it seems doable if we have .0125" neck thickness to give .535" neck dia. 5 thou body taper and 15 thou belt give or take a few thou here and there.

I am not a "Boomiehater" as you say, only a "Boomieiscrazy!!!er"

Do you want my feedback on this idea?

should i duck first???

yes...if i didnt i would have kept it to myself. thanks in advance

i guess if it was praise you would have typed it without asking

just had a thought...could 50-110 or 50-140 dies be used for reloading??? that would save some dough...

just use a diff shell holder...

well marc?

well,...
i'll post a pic of the 500 AR in a day or three...

no belt, and no rebated rim (neither make a difference to ME) ...

I just can't seem to get bauksa to deliver my f***** barrel.

but I have chamber and die reamers, and have made the sizing die...

but i just got back from holland, which is why i am up this eaerly on a saturday (i think it's saturday)

jeffe

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
well,...
i'll post a pic of the 500 AR in a day or three...

no belt, and no rebated rim (neither make a difference to ME) ...

I just can't seem to get bauksa to deliver my f***** barrel.

but I have chamber and die reamers, and have made the sizing die...

but i just got back from holland, which is why i am up this eaerly on a saturday (i think it's saturday)

jeffe

Holland! What did you bring us?

cases on their way to ed to become little 50 cal 500 nitro power bolt action frankensteins...

looking at some of these neck measurements it is giving me hope for this project.

http://www.metric-conversions.org/cgi-bin/util/convert.cgi
http://www.municion.org/

ed should have the brass soon and he will let us know for sure.
50-90

500 n.e. 3"

505 gibbs

thinking about the 505 version...
let me know what your thoughts are on this.

.505"
.529" o.d. at the neck giving 12 thou brass thickness
.007" body taper (same taper ratio as the 470 capstick)
.014" belt
.550 casehead

on a lathe taper off 7 thou where the belt starts down to 3 thou at the neck end to give a 14 thou belt and a .529 neck dia.

I measured some 505 basic brass at .014
mouth thickness, and if using .510" diameter
bullets neck would be .538. These basic cases
are .633" at the base, so if I did a belted
operation on them the belt could be brought down to about .626" and base about .610".
Then there would be much more taper
than .007 per side.It would be much better
for a belted .550 Mag. Then the mouth
be .578 or a little bigger if you cut
case back to 2.6. My 585HE belted, one of
a kind gun, the case is built from long
Nyati basic brass that I did a belt on.
Its belt is .654, base .635, mouth .604,
length 3.45. Gets 13,000 ft lbs. If I
hadn't built my 585HE I might have done
a 550HE one of a kind. But in the 550 realm
I am doing a 28GA FH with RMC making cases,
and maybe test some 550 Mag when I get
ahead on projects.Ed

cool...
those 550's and 577's are out of my league in many ways but fun as heck i am sure.

the 28 and 410 gfh ideas are neet and the 12...well that is the king. (elvis that is)

i am so curious to see if the 510 and 505 max is possible.

soooo with the brass still in somewhereland how would you envision the 510 and 505 versions coming out and what you think is doable in terms of belt, taper and mouth thickness?

if only the 505 version is doable i think it will be cool as heck. not many new things out there to invent...i might have to hang up my wildcatting hat

o.k. the cases are in the hands of the maestro ed hubel. thanks for the tip jeffeosso regarding the larger 375 rum brass...you were right. and thanks to gixxer for the donation of cases.

the wildcat is in the delivery room. lets see if it is doa or a go. cross your fingers or hairs or bolts.

well just talked to ed. ed is gunna put some lipstck on this pig and make the dummies for a show and tell. he is a busy guy so it will take a couple days but i appreciate his help. thanks ed. he thinks the 505 is doable but barely and even thinks the 2.85 version can work due to the thinner case brass at the mouth. the 375 rum brass is measuring .548"

if anyone has some brass that is .550" spec that would help a bunch in getting the 510 to work.

soooo if even the 505 can work this would be cool as heck. if we can make or obtain .550" casehead rum brass we are in business for the 510...

anyone doing a run of rum brass?

so the project goal of a cheap barrel swap to a 505 d.g. power wildcat in a 3.34" length or 3.7" length action with rum brass .532 bolt-face is in the incubator...the 510 version needs some work and the 500 would be easy as pumpkin pie.

Boomie,
NO ONE makes rum basic, unfortunately... we are trying to get there, but it won't be a staple...

however, a couple folks make rigby basic, and, well, the extra .040 from the rigby compared to the rum, is well worth it in the .510 "race"...

Think seriously about a .500 bullet, though no one makes DGR bullets for it...

here's what a Rigby based 500 AR looks like

the 505 makes the most sense if there is any sense in this...

the 500 a.r. is the best and easiest way to go i admit all day long...

this is a different philosophy than the 500 a.r. the 500 a.r. is the biggest you can shoehorn in a 3.34" without radical mods to the gun and is perfect in design. the mods on this max version is all to the brass and at the end of the pipe dream to have special brass made. if there would be a .555" casehead we could go to 510 no problemo but in todays reality the .505" and .500" are within grasp. if pistol bullets were the thing the 470 a.r. has that covered...cant wait to get mine finished.

using 505 bullets and swaged down 510" bullets would not be too bad. like i said. if even getting the 505 doable this would be a success imho

the only other way to get the .510" version to go is to try trimming down the lazzeroni brass to spec rum or spec +.005 rum dimensions.

on the next episode of as the wildcat world turns...
will the dummies come out o.k.
will lazzeroni save the .510" max hopes
we will see as the wildcat world turns...

the 500 a.r. will be awesome and i might have to settle on 505

as i said...ed thinks we could do the 2.85" version too so this is morphing in a good way.

i will change the title to 505 and there will be no more race unless the brass gods bless us.

sooo...

i was thinking a switch barrel on the 375 ruger would be good start because it is a stronger platform.

375 and 505...classic cals on a modern gun and cases.

the 375 h+h switch barrel starter gun and the longer 2.85" version 505 max would be a good combo too. same bolt and same lengths.

Well if you did have to play it safe and go with .500 bullets there are a bunch of new bullets out there for the S&W, like these hornady XTP's. not a DGR bullet, but I know it would get a bear, muskox, or bison's attention. Personally I would care not whether it was .500, .505, or .510, it is still a 50 in my book. Guess it depends on what your goal is, and how far you are willing to go. I still have that VZ-24 waiting for SOME form of RUM wildcat, 475 and up.

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=770395

the 500 s&w bullets would be a cheap way to go...

ranger rick out of alaska casts up to 700 grainers...

the reason to go with the 505 or 510 is 1 to get the bullet out of the case and 2 to get the heavy big traditional rifle and double gun bullets going at good d.g. velocities of the guns of old for a minimum investment and lots of fun.

pm ed to see if you can colaberate in making the first one go boom... that would be awesome to get this idea to start pushing lead around