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Well- I have done some load testing with the 12 Ga-FH using Fireformed cases the water capacity is 355 grains. I started out with 270 gr of Rl-25 and a 750 gr monolitic solid by Bridger results were 2150fps. I then tried 300 gr of Varget for 2700fps and then moved to WW 748. 315 grs hit 3008 fps. Recoil was fierce and I estimate about 150ft-lb range. ME is about 15K. This load is not for the Timid! It goes through 1/2 steel plate nicely too. Next phase is 1000 gr Bridgers. -Rob Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers to do incredibly stupid things- AH (1941)- Harry Reid (aka Smeagle) 2012 Nothing Up my sleeves but never without a plan and never ever without a surprise! | ||
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Rob, you are getting only getting 10 fps per grain!!! HOLY COW the 550's ate leat get 20fps per grain.... what horrible powder economy!!! jeffe opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Rob, you are certifiable!! I do mean this as a compliment! "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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Do you think that is a mild understatement?  Seriously, this is a very interesting project and I like the way the rifle turned out. But I would not want to shoot it at 3000 fps. Better you than me! | |||
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Rob, what are the heaviset bullets you intend to shoot ?? | |||
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Jeffe- It sure isn't efficient is it. It's like horsepower it takes about 500 to go 200 mph and about 1000 to go 250!-Rob Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers to do incredibly stupid things- AH (1941)- Harry Reid (aka Smeagle) 2012 Nothing Up my sleeves but never without a plan and never ever without a surprise! | |||
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Rob, given the lists of some of the guns I've seen you shoot and your comments on them -- to see you say: "Recoil was fierce" makes my shoulder cringe without ever seeing this thing. My hat's truly off to you and Hubel putting together these 12ga FH project guns. This stuff goes beyond merely "impressive" to me. Any thoughts on selling the marketing rights to Ruger or Hornady or someone? ====================================== Cleachdadh mi fo m' féileadh dé tha an m' osan. | |||
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Not necessarily, my buddy Jack has been running over 300 mph on about 500 hp in Neb II and III. http://www.yacoucci.com/ Congrats on the 12 GFH, it is truly in a class of it's own! __________________________________________________ The AR series of rounds, ridding the world of 7mm rem mags, one gun at a time. | |||
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Ed- Thanks, I am taking .50BMG brass and expanding the necks in a homemade four step expander to .660, then fireforming with 65 grs of Bulleseye over cornmeal. Have you been able to fireform a .50BMG case directly to .729 without splitting? I've also calculated the pressure to be in the 45K PSI range. Brass just pops right out ,no problem. Muzzel rise is a major problem with this gun and when 25lbs gets going it's hard to stop. You really don't want to stand behind me, although a good gun catcher might be valuable. This gun NEEDS a MUZZEL BRAKE Badly( so much for form over function). Assuming I can get a 50% reduction in recoil, the gun becomes usable. As is, two shots and I'm done. I also made a 12GaFH SHORT by simply sawing a .50BMG case off at the beginning of the shoulder, threading the rim and expanding the case to .726 with a homemade expander. This cartridge is 2.8 inches long and will hold 200grs of powder. The nice thing is you don't need to fireform first. I can easily get 2650fps out of it with the 750's and 200 grs of Varget. Guys- Thanks for the kind words, I now think the 12 ga FH short using a shaw 12 ga barrel on a big Farquarqson action might be a pretty practical piece. It's trivial to match .577 T rex max loads with it and still shoot 12 Ga 2 3/4 inch shotgun shells. I am also seriously considering a paradox version. Paul- Hmm streamliner, no doubt your right. I'm thinking SC Viper. PC- I have some 2000 gr boreriders. They can be shot at around 1500fps. Look at the pics I posted before to see what one looks like.-Rob Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers to do incredibly stupid things- AH (1941)- Harry Reid (aka Smeagle) 2012 Nothing Up my sleeves but never without a plan and never ever without a surprise! | |||
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Hi Rob, That sounds like too much of a good thing at 150 ft lbs. What is the weight of the rifle? Wait until you have to explain that one to the airline on the way to Texas. Take good care and best of the season, Dave | |||
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"hog gun" "okay"  jeffeopinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Dave, Rob will have to ship his ammo by UPS. As it will weigh about 3 rounds to the pound. That or he will just have to drive down here, to keep from trying to explain shooting hogs with a 3/4" bullet. Hog Killer IGNORE YOUR RIGHTS AND THEY'LL GO AWAY!!! ------------------------------------ We Band of Bubbas & STC Hunting Club, The Whomper Club | |||
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This round definately brings new meaning to the term, beware of your backstop  Definately takes hp to push a fullsize car fast. __________________________________________________ The AR series of rounds, ridding the world of 7mm rem mags, one gun at a time. | |||
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They say the same thing about the miles per gallon I get with my Excursion...   ~~~ Be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong. 1 Corinthians 16:13 | |||
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Ed, Can you get this in a Guide Gun?  Merry Christmas Roger QSL | |||
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Ed- Good data! Thanks so much for it. I forgot you have a 31 inch barrel. To be honest, burning this much powder flat needs a longer tube. My muzzel flash is like a flamethrower, andf i'm leaving alot of velocity on the table with my 26 incher. I just got my NEI .732 1000gr Paradox mold and am anxious to try your loads in my gun. Ed- Try the 12Ga FH short. No fireforming needed, just a two step expander. .660-.726. It easily holds 200 grs of powder and is almost perfect for your 35Kpsi application. Just saw off a .50BMG case at the shoulder line, expand, then machine the threads in. This thing will surpass the mighty T-Rex and even my .600 OK big time and you can still shoot a 2 3/4 12 Ga std shotgun shell. Is it cool or what! By the way, Waffenfabrik Hein has a Webley Falling block for the .700NE for $2500. I'm talking to them right now about adapting it for the 12 Ga FH short. I am strongly considering building a real hunting weight paradox based 12GaFH on one. I'll use all my tricks to build a 11- 12lb Dragon Slayer.-Rob Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers to do incredibly stupid things- AH (1941)- Harry Reid (aka Smeagle) 2012 Nothing Up my sleeves but never without a plan and never ever without a surprise! | |||
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My hat's off to you for this project. I looked at the thread title and thought "Holy Smokes!" What does this shoulder-fired howitzer look like? ____________________________________________ Did I mention, "I REALLY LIKE GUNS"? "...I don't care what you decide or how much you pay for it..." Former FFL Dealer NAHC Life Member NRA Endowment/Life Member Remington Society of America Member Hunter in Training | |||
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Ed- Way to go. Your keeping the pressures way down too. I think I might be able to get even more with WW748 in my gun at higher pressures. IS THIS THING COOL OR WHAT!-Rob Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers to do incredibly stupid things- AH (1941)- Harry Reid (aka Smeagle) 2012 Nothing Up my sleeves but never without a plan and never ever without a surprise! | |||
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I am in a state of profound awe.............   If yuro'e corseseyd and dsyelixc can you siltl raed oaky? | |||
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Ed- The boreriders seat .500 deep. I seat these to just cover the driving band. They definately kick harder than the 750's. Damn, 3900 at 35K. If you had a tungsten sabot that would do serious damage to even hardened armor plate. I've got to find some of those Barnes sabots. I can easily run 50Kpsi with WW748 although you have 5 inches more barrel than I do. What do you think 5000 fps? Wonder if my Oehler reads that high? What thread diameter does the savage use?-Rob Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers to do incredibly stupid things- AH (1941)- Harry Reid (aka Smeagle) 2012 Nothing Up my sleeves but never without a plan and never ever without a surprise! | |||
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I think this has to be the coolest thing ive seen in a long time. So yall are expanding the 50 bmg cases to have a rebated 12 ga rifle case? | |||
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STW Fan- No this isn't a .50BMG/12 Ga varient. I started out with that idea, but quickly abandoned it due to the fact that the cartridge would need to be registered and approved for sporting purposes by BATF. That is because it could be considered a destructive device in some states. To remain completely legal, We have modified .50BMG brass to hold a threaded on Rim. IDENTICAL to that on a std over the counter 12Ga shotshell. We intentionally built them to be able to fire 12 ga shotgun shells which run what 12Kpsi as well as 12 Ga From Hell full length or shorts at 50KPSI. In so doing I think we have developed the most powerfull shoulder-fireable cartridge in the world. At least it is to my knowledge. Now obviously a 20 mm cannon is more powerfull, but it definately is a destructive device and requires a license to own. I believe that the 12 Ga FH short can actually be made into a viable hunting firearm.-Rob Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers to do incredibly stupid things- AH (1941)- Harry Reid (aka Smeagle) 2012 Nothing Up my sleeves but never without a plan and never ever without a surprise! | |||
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You guys have issues... Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Mike- We don't need no stinkin issues. We have 12 Ga's.-Rob Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers to do incredibly stupid things- AH (1941)- Harry Reid (aka Smeagle) 2012 Nothing Up my sleeves but never without a plan and never ever without a surprise! | |||
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Rob, check your email... Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Tell me more about how you're making your cases. I wish i was standing over your shoulder to see. Sorry if im bothering yall. i think stuff like this is intresting. | |||
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The .50BMG rims are Lathe turned down to .619 and the threaded 5/8X24. The Rims start with a 5/8 X24 threaded piece of 1 inch brass barstock. We basically duplicate all the dimensions of a std 12 Ga shotgun shell with respect to the rim. The rims are parted off the threaded barstock. You then screw the rims on the brass and your essentially done. I can make about 25 cases an hour and probably 50 rims. It's actually pretty easy to do and not very complicated at all. The cases are annealed at the shoulder and neck, then fireformed with 65 grs of Bulleseye to the full case dimensions. Resize, load powder and bullet and your in buisness.-Rob Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers to do incredibly stupid things- AH (1941)- Harry Reid (aka Smeagle) 2012 Nothing Up my sleeves but never without a plan and never ever without a surprise! | |||
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Are either of your barrels rifled? | |||
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They are both rifled although a smoothbore paradox gun is seriously being considered. ED - I have 1000gr linotype paradox slugs .732. Need some?-Rob Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers to do incredibly stupid things- AH (1941)- Harry Reid (aka Smeagle) 2012 Nothing Up my sleeves but never without a plan and never ever without a surprise! | |||
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Hmmmm I wonder how thick the copper clading is on a 3/4" grounding rod. you could turn that stock down and have your own bonded hardened steel core projectiles. I also thought about the battery lugs you can buy at an automotive store. They are used to screw into a side post battery and it give you a top mount type post. Chuck up on the 3/8 studs and turn off the wrench flats to your desired diameter then screw a "gas check" onto the stud. | |||
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I would like to buy a few 12gafh cases to do some measuring. If someone could help I would appreciate it. Also what is the ATFs read on this? I would like to build one of these but I wouldnt want to piss anyone off. Thanks Richard | |||
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It's regulated the same as any rifled 12GA shotgun. i.e. whatever your state requires to own a 12 GA shotgun with a rifled barrel. After all it will shoot a std 2 3/4 load of 6's,000 buckshot or a slug same as a Mossberg or Rem 870. All states and Federal regulations to my knowledge specifically exclude the 12 Ga from DD regulations. Try Fritz 454 as he might be intertested in selling cases. Personally, I have found selling cartridges to collectors to be too big a hassel. However, I'm happy to provide all dimensions and instructions. Any competent machinist can make one in a 1/2 hr.-Rob Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers to do incredibly stupid things- AH (1941)- Harry Reid (aka Smeagle) 2012 Nothing Up my sleeves but never without a plan and never ever without a surprise! | |||
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kinda new at all this but are yall talking about firing short 50 cal in break-open shotguns? what a monster, cant wait to see one in action. Kurt. | |||
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Ed- The Encore is made in 12 Ga. I think only in 3"" mag. I have to look. I am giving some thought to either modifying the frame to hold a Shaw 12 Ga barrel, or to simply go smoothbore and screw on a paradox rifled section at the end of the barrel.Ithink I will thread the barrel externally with an inch or two of thread and make a short internal forceing cone before it hits the rifling. Man that would be one wicked little beast with the 12 ga FH short. Kweber, no we are talking about a true 12 Ga made from .50BMG brass so that we can run things at 4X the std pressures of shotguns. You achieve incredible power this way and still can go shoot ducks, then Ele.-Rob Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers to do incredibly stupid things- AH (1941)- Harry Reid (aka Smeagle) 2012 Nothing Up my sleeves but never without a plan and never ever without a surprise! | |||
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Rob, sounds like you are headed towards the British "Little John" adapter of WWII. That is a squeeze bore adapter threaded on the muzzle. It's a cheap way to a Gerlich, ie: 28-20mm, 75-55mm. So, .729-.525"??? Hog Killer IGNORE YOUR RIGHTS AND THEY'LL GO AWAY!!! ------------------------------------ We Band of Bubbas & STC Hunting Club, The Whomper Club | |||
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a cut down .50 cal BMG in a break-open shotgun should knock the snot outta yer head when the hammer falls. I have shot 3.5 heavy-shot in my pump Mossberg,recoil is a bit brisk but managable. 1,3/4oz. @1300. your round must be twice as stout. dont have oz. to grains info, but it oughta make your eyes water even in a heavy gun. Kurt. | |||
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KWeber some ounce to grain conversions for you. (16oz = 1 lb = 7000gr) 1/2oz = 219gr 3/4oz = 328gr 7/8oz = 383gr 1 oz = 438gr 1 1/8oz = 492gr 1 1/4oz = 547gr 1 1/2oz = 656gr 1 3/4oz = 766gr 2 oz = 875gr 2 1/4oz = 984gr 2 3/8oz = 1039gr 4 5/8 oz = 2023gr | |||
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Remember folks, Muzzel brakes work really well with high pressure loads. Thats why they don't work well on normal shotguns where the pressures are maybe 14KPSI. We are at 4 times that. I expect if done right i.e paradox methodology and an efficient brake, that this should be quite entertaining. I will also use some mercury recoil reducers. My 15lb .700RLG improved also based on the .50 BMG case was actually very shootable. You new folks have may not recognize it, but we have been doing stuff like this for quite awhile now. Ed and I kinda have figured out how to make this work. Hog Killer- Thanks I could not remember where I got the idea from. -Rob Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers to do incredibly stupid things- AH (1941)- Harry Reid (aka Smeagle) 2012 Nothing Up my sleeves but never without a plan and never ever without a surprise! | |||
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add tracer to help with lead and no goose in Garwood Tx. would be safe.  | |||
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Rob what is your 700rlg? 50 bmg necked up to 700 full length? | |||
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