I thought I'd show some pics of my 12GaFH Loading tools. The Primer seater is from Mike Matter M2 precision and uses a simple .50BMG loading ring I screw onto my threaded rims. You can see that set-up in the bottom picture. Mikes die works in a .50BMG converted Ammomaster press and arms the primers perfectly and does not damage them. The two piece sizing die and bullet seater die combo are shown to the left of that as well as a crimping die. The sizing die basically requires simply lubing a case and putting it in a vise and tightening the vise till the entire case is flush. You then add a brass rod and hammer it loose. You can de-prime at the same time if you wish. These Dies are protoypes to work out the critical dimensions and bugs so they are not very elegant, but totally functional. The final design will be much simplier. Takes about 3 minutes to load a 12GaFH case with these tools as is though. The final dies will be all CNC produced. Finally I have a primer seater in design, that will thread into a std 7/8 reloading press and makes use of my threaded cases. No loading rings will be necessary.-Rob

Sign me up for a SUBSCRIPTION PLEASE.

Those are nice looking tools. I checked Mike's site also and his tools are excellent also...but for my taste the prices are way beyond my pocketbook, being a cheep bawstid that I am...although a couple of things did come to mind as far as priming goes.

The simple shell holder, 7/8x14, but modified with a simple ramrod to fit a standard #3 shell holder on one end and the other end turned to fit inside the 50 BMG shell holder to seat the primer, would be a lot cheaper to make and work just as well as the "fancy" more complicate model...basically just simplifying Mike's seating tool...to reducing machine time and materials.

Or simpler yet a slight modification of the system used on the Forster Co-ax press adapted to use on a "C" press...

Certainly using the cheap R8 or 5C collet to crimp as already proscribed or a simple roll crimper would suffice for all but the RMC cases and those loads stoked to the max...maybe, maybe not...but something to think about.

Maybe a simple ring sizer as used on most shotshell presses... I was going to check the two sizing rings I have against the 209 adapted cases when they get here and make a simple "tube" with enough clearance to go over the case but still be able to push the sizer ring on and off the case using my arbor press or a vise...plus see how/what can be done to modify the Co-Ax press primer seater.

I would much rather have the die set but when you don't have the dollars, you get real inventive to get the job done.

Seating the 209 primers can be done easily by hand with a brass rod in the case by simple tapping them in till they are flush. No need for a fancy seater at all. This is the only advantage of the 209 primers I will admit to. Punch the fired primers out with a primer punch like the one shown in the pic and separate the adapter ring if it comes out of the case( that depends on what kind of locktight you use). I made a little "pickle fork" tool to separate them. Primer adapters are dirt cheap if you wreck one. My .50BMG primer seater works beautifully and uses a std 7/8X14 press. You add a primer, screw in the case to the head cap, start the primer seating and then screw down the cap to fully and precisely seat the primer. Arms perfectly each and every time!
One thing I am discovering is that you really need to FL size in the NEF chamber lengthened with my reamer. The 240gr H50BMG loads are moving the brass enough that FL sizing is a good idea. I didnt see much brass movement with 220 gr loads. My first project for CNC production is the simple hand/press sizer. There are some technical issues which I still need to work out though. The one in the picture was made on a manual Lathe and I'm not doing more of them that way. I'm also going to decrerase the neck diameter by .002 for more neck tension. I'm hoping to produce an entire reloading set for under $500.-Rob

Cool beans, Rob. Your dies should be good.
I would like to try some of the 209-adapted Nohbozo cases if I may, being a Blue Dot Duplex afficianado.

Hey,
I just this afternoon found a Zabala Hermanos 10-Gauge SxS (Richland Arms imported) like the one I bought in 1985.
32" barrels and about 12 pounds, in good shape. Paid about the same for this one as I did for a new one in 1985.

I wonder if 12GaFH chamber inserts could be made to screw into the 10Ga chambers after they were drilled out and threaded?
Sort of a step toward monobloc-ing, but leave the 10Ga barrels unparted.
Firing the 12GaFH through a 10Ga smoothbore would be like a SxS Mossy 835 Ultimag.
Superior patterning.

Guys- Today was a good day. Instead of going shooting I wrote code. Frankly, not nearly as much fun! I got the CNC 12GaFH sizer pgrm to work perfectly and the prototype die made from 4140 steel came out dimensionally correct on the first try. I have enough steel to make two more. Contact me by PM if you want one. May be able to make three complete sizer/ seating die combos with what I've got on hand.-Rob

The 12ga chamber in a 10 ga barrel is like
Brett in MN 835 Ulti-mag Mossy. I named it his airgun
as the slug rides mainly on air.With overpowder 12ga
wad that seals up good in 10ga barrel size. He can
hit a pail at 75yds 5 for 5 shots. Neat maybe to
try an insert to do same in a 10ga double. He runs 1 oz slug
with 70 gr Blue dot without any pressure signs,
I think he has a mod choke. I got to ask him.
When same load is in his NEF rifled Ultra ,with tight
12ga barrel cases stick hard. If I still had Zabala
I try it myself.Ed

Range Report- 195gr of Rel 25 with the 1085gr double boreriders went 1657 fps avg 3 shots. A little less than quickload predicted but not by much. Cases extracted fine and recoil not bad. Much less in fact than the same bullets with 240gr of H50BMG.Duh! These bullets had poor neck tension as I used my original sizing die and Ed's straight wall cases have thinner necks than my fireformed .50bmg cases. My new die totally corrects that problem and the cases I sized today( using my new sizer) and loaded had excellent neck tension and look for all the world like .38 specials on steroids! Beautiful! I suspect the minimal bullet resistance of the double boreriders and lack of good neck tension is not allowing the NEF short barrel to generate enough pressure.One recovered bullet had good engraving but the total surface engagement is minimal. Going back to FL brass .7295 Darwins to test that theory. Once again, .50BMG primers went off perfectly with stock NEF spring. ME of 6,622.-Rob

Rob,
Jolly good show. Will send a PM if I can ... the Ice-bomb fell on Western KY pretty disaster.
Limited access to electricity for a while!
Ed,
What? No interest in 12GaFH shot loads?

I shot a buckshot load in our long case, info
posted earlier.. About 600gr buckshot over
2000 fps in Savage, just to try one.
Real big pattern in rifled barrel.Now that
i have smooth barrel ones I willdo some
wnen it warms up from our 5 to 10 degrees.Ed

Ed- How many OOB did you stick in the case and what wads did you use ( powder too)?I like the idea of .620 ball bearings in a epoxy sabot, or stacked Diablo slugs in a sabot. Gotta order some.-Rob

Rob- I think I had 15 #1 buck. Just one test load, in
Savage with our long case.Glued card over shot.Used
200 gr ball powder with card over powder...

Here is a double projectile load that would make a
good defense load. Two Brenekkes doubled up in RMC
case in the NEF. 85 gr of 4227 pushing 2 one
ounce KO slugs about 1600. Bottom slug has seal.

Also found a way to adapt extra slugs to 10ga. A
515 gr Lyman slug for use in 12ga wadcup, in my
10ga, by using thickwall BPI steel no slit wadcup
shortened and Lyman bottomed out in it, so it
is like a discard on impact sabot slug. Like Lightfield
and Hastings. Similar deal for 16ga using BPI 16ga
so slit heavy shot cup and 20ga Lyman. Now we have it
so that 2 Lymans can fit 10,12,16,20,28 ga....Ed



PS- I ask all of you for a favor. Would you please go
to the thehighroad.us forums, join in and support them.
The owner has had original Highroad domain stolen from
him and he is in court to get it back. He is in
the right and if you folks show up there it will help.
And if you can stand it until court rules stay away from
the first highroad and ask your friends to do the same.

Ed- How many OOB will a std 3.5 case contain? I was thinking of making some short brass Diablo slugs for the 12gaFH. Three of them of somewhat different weights, stacked like your Brennekes would be a amazing defense load assuming they separate in a short distance from a rifled barrel.-Rob

I think 12 double ought. That would be 600
or more grains. Dixie makes a load they
sell called the TriBall load. Loads like you plan on
are devastating. The Brenekkes separate as the back
one has slight drag of locked on base.ED

The Dixie Triball is REALLY something...I'm going to do a 4 ball load as soon as the longer brass gets here and I can find a supplier for the 0.690" or 0.715" balls...BPI doesn't list them anymore.

Hummmmmm...maybe 4 - .715" balls at ~550 gr each is just too heavy...~2200gr...and too long a shot column...2.86"...time will tell.

Any one know another supplier for the large lead balls, other than casting my own???

I have an order to Greg S, but he is in the middle of job hunting and there isn't any hurry anyway...

Thanks

Thought you may be interested in this.



Hmm, I wonder if a 20GFH is possible on this platform!

Gibs wait till you see my 12GaFH double rifle!
You can easily launch 2000 gr bullets with Rl-25.
That triball sounds interesting but a Tri-Darwin( mini me) version would be something else again. Maybe I'll make some 500gr Darwins and see what happens.-Rob

You can get NEF 20ga single for starters
if you don't have 4 grand for that gun, that
have 3.5" chambers and real heavy barrel.
3.5" brass from RMC and you are close to 600NE power.
The Nef will take more pressure down the barrel. Ed

I'm a 12G guy through an through, just thought you guys might like a 20GSxSFH platform. Yeah its not cheap, but then I'd expect the quality of said SG to be very good for that kind of money, robust enough perhaps for a FH treatment. It certainly be an eye opener at any shoot tho.

Side note, I'm having a spot of bother with local Gunsmiths, so far none are willing to do the required work. The Best GS we have here is only interested in Rifles. When I rang him, I asked if he could do some work for me on my 210F, He asked me, "Is that a Rifle". I replied "No, but it is a rif........beep beep beep" phone was hung up on me! So if I want to convert my 210F to a 210FH (hehe) .729 Express, I'm going to have to do it myself. Talk about 1 expencive SG, by the time I get all the machinery!!! I will also have to get a GS Licence to do my own work. Here why:

Firearms Act 1973 West Australia

19. Licensing offences

(1.) Any person who —
(a.) sells, delivers or disposes of;
(b.) purchases or otherwise comes into possession of; or
(c.) is in possession of,
any firearm or ammunition and is not the holder of a licence or
permit under this Act entitling him to do so commits a crime
unless subsection (1ae) or section 19AA provides otherwise or
section 8 applies.

(1aa) A person who is guilty of a crime under subsection (1)
committed in circumstances referred to in subsection (1)(a.) is
liable, on conviction, to imprisonment for 14 years if at the time
of the offence the person was selling 3 or more firearms without
a licence or permit entitling the person to sell any of them.

(1ab) A person who is guilty of a crime under subsection (1) —
(a.) committed in circumstances where the person was
carrying both a firearm that is a subject of the offence
and —
(i) a prohibited drug or prohibited plant, as defined
in the Misuse of Drugs Act 1981, when not
authorised to be in possession of that drug or
plant under that Act; or
(ii) an amount of money equal to or greater than the
prescribed amount,
is liable, on conviction, to imprisonment for 14 years;
(b.) committed in circumstances where the person was in
possession of 3 or more firearms without a licence or
permit entitling the person to be in possession of any of
them, is liable, on conviction, to imprisonment for
10 years unless subsection (1aa) applies.

(1ac) Unless subsection (1aa) or (1ab) applies, a person who is guilty
of a crime under subsection (1) committed in relation to a
firearm is liable, on conviction, to imprisonment for 7 years
if —
(a.) at the time of the offence the offender —
(i) had been refused, or was disqualified from
holding, a licence or permit referred to in
subsection (1); or
(ii) had had a licence or permit referred to in
subsection (1) revoked,
in relation to the firearm or a firearm of the same kind;
(b.) the firearm was a handgun or a prescribed firearm;
(c.) at the time of the offence, any number or identification
mark which was on the firearm had been defaced or
removed; or
(d.) the firearm had been altered from the design or
characteristics of its original manufacture.
Summary conviction penalty for a crime under subsection (1)
committed in any of the circumstances described in this
subsection: Imprisonment for 3 years or a fine of $12 000.

(1ad) Unless subsection (1aa), (1ab) or (1ac) applies, a person who
commits a crime under subsection (1) is liable, on conviction, to
imprisonment for 5 years.
Summary conviction penalty: Imprisonment for 3 years or a fine
of $12 000.

(1ae) Subsection (1) does not apply to coming into, or being in,
possession of ammunition under section 30(2) as the agent of a
person to whom it is, or is to be, delivered as soon as is
reasonably practicable.
(1a) For the purposes of applying the penalty provisions of
subsection (1ac)(a), a firearm is of one of the kinds prescribed
for the purposes of that provision by the regulations.

(2) A person who —
(a.) sells, delivers, or disposes of a firearm or ammunition to
another person, or otherwise permits another person to
take possession of a firearm or ammunition;
(b.) purchases, or otherwise comes into, possession of a
firearm or ammunition from another person; or
(c.) permits another person to be in possession of a firearm
or ammunition,
commits an offence if the other person is not the holder of a
licence or permit under this Act entitling him to possession of it
unless it is a disposal of ammunition under section 30(2) or
section 8 applies.
Penalty:
(a.) if the firearm concerned was a handgun or a
prescribed firearm, imprisonment for 5 years;
(b.) in any other case, imprisonment for 3 years or a fine
of $12 000.

(3) [repealed]

(4) A person who —
(a.) [deleted]
(b.) repairs on behalf of another;
(c.) manufactures,
or is concerned in repairing or manufacturing, any firearm or
ammunition otherwise than in accordance with a licence under
this Act authorising him to do so, commits a crime and is liable,
on conviction —
(a.) in the case of the manufacture of a handgun, to
imprisonment for 14 years;
(b.) in any other case, to imprisonment for 5 years.
Summary conviction penalty except in the case of the
manufacture of a handgun: Imprisonment for 2 years or a
fine of $8 000.


The only Legaly allowed person to work on a Firearm here in WA, is a Gunsmith/repairer. A machine shop is NOT legal to work on any firearms, both they and myself would be in deep doo doo. As to the "(d.) the firearm had been altered from the design or characteristics of its original manufacture." part I think I'm okish, after all its stilla 12G, it HAS/HAD a rifled barrel and fired/fires solids.

Ed,
What do you think will be the velocity of a 900 grain sabot slug, from a fully rifled barrel, loaded in a 3.5" plastic and RMC brass cases at 15,000 psi maximum pressure?
Lefteris.
www.europeancartridgeunlimited.com

900 gr in 3.5" plastic, about 1500.
in 3.5 RMC brass 1700, that is holding
to 15,000 psi max..Ed

Thank you Ed,
I suppose we are talking about a 600 NE "Special" from an ordinary, off the shelf, 12 ga. shotgun.
Lefteris.
www.europeancartridgeunlimited.com

It has to be little more than ordinary shotgun,
must be modern steel, medium to heavy barrel.
Or alloy barreled on like the Zoli OU tested
to high pressures. Ed

Range report- Ok guys I worked the loads up carefully starting at 210gr of RL25 and finally.245gr of Rl25 over a 1085gr FL Darwin went 1753 fps today. Recoil was not bad, however my chrony needs new skyscreens. Good thing its a Master Beta! Ha Ha.
Cases ejected fine and once again no problem with ignition of the .50BMG primers. I've hit the goal and thats as far as I want to push the NEF. I've got a neat 7/8X14 .50BMG primer seating tool to complete prototyping this week. This is about as far as anyone should push the old NEF IMHO. Quickload says about 28Kpsi and I think this load is max.-Rob

Rob- That is great from short barrel.
Glad NEF hammer is doing the job.
Mine does soft primers now with
extra pin to give spring more
tension and it will do then all
with heavy spring.I knurled rim edge on a case
and got tighter fit for headspace and better
denting of the primer in NEF.Ed

Rob,
Good data! I am taking notes still.

.620-cal/.729-cal sabot loads for a 600 Nitro Shotgun?
That is interesting too.

Buckshot From Hell?
Seems to me that the 54-cal muzzy balls (.530"/222-grains) would be appropriate, six of them! That is 1332 grains of lead.
Push them out of the barrel with a nitrocard and a fiber wad, no cup, to minimize the rifling spin dispersal, use some granulated buffer ... should shoot a nice pattern for varmints.

Maybe 3 of the 54-cal balls at 2000 fps would be a 100-yard deer blaster with light recoil.

The Ice-bama disaster is going away, but the O-bama disaster is here to stay ... let us pray ... Amen!

UPS lost half of my zinc on the way from CA to KY, and they lost 19 of 54 pounds of Linotype ... Rotometals is supposed to ship replacement since I made a claim against UPS ... split boxes retaped, and some UPS box pusher or driver must have been a bullet caster.
The Lino was permanently marked on the ingots, but the particular form of zinc that I ordered was not.
May the thief screw up his lead pot and get a good dose of metal fume fever!

Lee is dragging their feet on the sizing die, nigh onto 4 months since ordered, still in the queue. They say that custom orders are on the back burner due to overload on standard production ... business must be good at Lee Precision, despite O-bama, or maybe because of O-bama ... gun-related, roll your own, stock up now, great value stuff ... in an economic downturn ... must an obameration effect.

I did get one of those Cadillac 20-pound Magnum melters for the Lino. Will sacrifice an old pot to the god "Zinc," hoping not to hallucinate from the fumes on my vision quest!

Yep, still here.
12Ga Squirrel Load From Hell testing begins this weekend!
Will work up to 3.25 ounces of "Seven-and-a-Half."

Do we need to send a bag of coal or some of those faux logs or some Whiskey or something..??

Heavens no!
We have coal aplenty, whiskey galore, and real logs litter the landscape across town and country in half of KY! Real logs are free for the picking. My yard is full of them.

So you're able to move about - roads are good.

It was really nothing.
Just some antique trees needed pruning and mother nature did it
with the weight of 2 or tree inches of ice covering everything for a few days.
Ditto the antique utility poles and power lines. They are getting modernized right now.
My house has underground electrical supply,
so it is all lit up now though neighbors on either side of me are still running generators,
due to their trees and aerial electric supply lines.
I have been driving over some dead high tension electric lines, lately, but roads are well cleared now.

Back to 12GaSLFH ...
Can a 12GaFH Howdah be long in coming?
With 18.5" barrels and 26" OAL it will be a legal "pistol."

Howdah from hell

SBC- Short Barreled canon! Wait, their called Mortars! If ever there was a gun that needed barrel length, its the 12gaFH!-Rob

Now if you wanted to be really sporty you could come up with the "A" guage from hell", all 2 inches of diameter.

Some 8ga experimenting and info. The 8ga chambers
I have are set up to fire the regular 8ga
size cases, and also REM kiln cases with bases
turned smaller, where the extra short basecup
is formed over the inside cup.Just reduce to the
diameter that it chambers ok and regular case
doesn't expand very much fired in same chamber.
This idea came from UK 8ga hunters that found
it was easier to get kiln cases. Now the other
case in 8ga available is the WIN kiln case and
ones I've seen are only single thickness basecup,
but they have the step formed in them to match
the kiln case belt size. Now you can't turn them
down any to fit my chamber, BUT you can swage
them down .012" in a die with a lttle lube on the
basecup. Examining them they do expand much more
than the doubled up REMs.I fired REMs 4-5 times
with bases expanding .002", the WIN I did
expanded .005" in one shot. I will use
heavier built REMs as they are only 70cents
primed and good for 4-5 shots, hairy loads.Ed

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
I thought I'd post some pics of my latest projects for the 12GaFH. The first is my 12GaFH Primer seater. It uses the 5/8X24 case threads to allign the case with my primer seater that fits into a std 7/8X14 reloading press. The picture shows it in a hand press and it really works well that way. The die is internally adjustable for primer seating depth and has a flat seater to correctly arm .50BMG primers. The die in the picture is a prototype and the final version will be made from 316 stainless steel.


Next is the 12GaFH QUADRACONE LOAD- 4- 250gr. .729 brass cones over 190gr of RL-25.
QUADRACONE- When REALLY bad things REALLY have to happen to REALLY bad people in a REALLY big hurry use QUADRACONE from the makers of the 12Ga FROM HELL- Only GOD can save YOU!

Rob... being that this would be for under 50 yards why not make .729" spheres? beit aluminium, copper, brass or lead.

Shot or bb's from hell?

stuff 3 of these "shot" bb's in a 12gfh with the top one sticking out a little less than half way so you only have about 1.85" of the bb's in the case.

Hell of a bb gun

when you cant find the projectiles you can say that you "Lost your marbles"

Brass balls from hell?

boomstick-I wanted to control the weight to the range where I know its safe and also just wanted something different as well as to use up some short brass stock I had. Balls, discs, ball bearings etc. At 50yrds its devastating! Those things are really moving.-Rob

It would be interesting to know the weight of the spheres in the different metals and the pattern they make at 25, 50 75 and 100 yards. Aluminium balls @ 3,000 fps would be quite interesting and would die out due to low weight and low bc at 100 yards. Lead balls might be deadly to 200 yards if the pattern is small enough.

quote:

Next is the 12GaFH QUADRACONE LOAD- 4- 250gr. .729 brass cones over 190gr of RL-25.
QUADRACONE- When REALLY bad things REALLY have to happen to REALLY bad people in a REALLY big hurry use QUADRACONE from the makers of the 12Ga FROM HELL- Only GOD can save YOU!

This is most excellent...!!!

No police car should ever be without a Rem 835 in 12GaFH loaded with QUADRACONE's. Instant protection against Hondas full of GANGSTAS. They will REST in PIECES! All thats left is the paperwork! QUADRACONE when you care enough to send the very BEST!