I agree bmg based cases are best, but some
will want little less speed and use small
primers. Sometimes it's good have flexibility.
RMC can make cases as thin as you want
as they make the old real thin mouth black powder
cases. And if you can keep chambers minimum the
bmg based case won't work harden so fast and go
longer between annealings. The one I fired many times
in Savage and sectioned to show on this thread, never did
need annealing.ED

Shot the NEF 8GA FH. That is the heavy barrel NEF
that was a 10ga.. I bored it out to 8ga and chambered
it for the heavy duty 8ga case. 770gr at 2200 out of
29" barrel. End of barrel has internal brake with 24
porting holes and with weighted thumbhole stock,
it handles recoil easy.Will have picture soon.Ed

Whoohoo Ed!
An 8-Gauge sweetie!
You go girl!

I do not like the idea of thinning the walls of the RMC brass to create chimera-shouldered brass in the NEF. It might start to look slightly bottle-necked.

Until I get a virgin barrel in an action capable of lighting off the CCI35's reliably, I am stuck with RMC brass.

The Dave Kiff reamer is excellent for the RMC 3.5" brass.
I wonder if RMC would make it 3.85" long?
That would tighten up the fit a little more.
Then, maybe the RMC 3.85" brass could be machined with CCI-35 primer pockets?

Sticking with 3.5" RMC brass and chambering a little tighter with the 3.5" reamer instead of the 3.85" reamer,
might allow CCI-35 primers to work more reliably in the NEF-er.

I wonder if the extra room in the loose-chambered NEF-er allows the Nohbozo brass to vibrate more
and dissipate the firing pin blow, even with zero headspace?
I am still thinking Rob's tighter chamber is the secret to his reliable ignition of BMG primers in the NEF-er.

Is the Savage 210 firing pin strike strong and deep enough to work reliably
with a tight chamber and CCI-35/Nohbozo brass?

Yes, factory shotgun shells are way under the max cartridge spec routinely, and that is why they work in Rob's custom tight-chambered Borchardt.

RMC brass is very near the max 12Ga spec and they stay that way no matter what I do to them so far.
Annealing the case mouths for crimping ease may be nessecary for repeat firings,
but the bases of my cases will probably set hard and never need sizing,
given the low pressures involved with 1400-grainers at 1400 to 1700 fps with H50BMG.
That is more than enough fun for me!
I'll check on the Vais brake and golf ball launcher tomorrow.

RMC will make whatever length you need.
Tighter fit is a plus for sure. The Savage
needs a short heavy spring added under the bolt
nut in back for necessary firing pin strength\,
And adjust firing pin to protrude out
to .085". Thinning mouths of RMC cases is my
recommendation for use in new minimum chamber
only.Ed

Ed,
I'll talk to RMC about 3.85" brass.
Thanks for the tips on the Savage.

As for this:

quote:

Originally posted by hubel458:
... Thinning mouths of RMC cases is my
recommendation for use in new minimum chamber
only.Ed

You have to mean a chimera-chamber like Rob's:
a 3" standard sloppy 12ga chamber with a thinner diameter terminal 0.85" added on at the old forcing cone,
finishing out to 3.85", with neck ending diameter of .770".

A "new minimum chamber" would be like Rob's Borchardt.
One could not use RMC brass in that, even with the terminal 0.85" of case walls thinned.
One would have to thin the case walls all the way from mouth to rim, with a greater taper than standard 12ga chambers have.

My chamber in Savage is tighter than Rob's
Borchardt and the RMC case with top
1/2 thinned and case resized goes in ok.
And the taper matches bmg based cases
with a slug in both. My chamber mouth
is .775:-.777". Both cases about .770" with
slug. And mouth is still .020" per side, which is
plenty strong. It takes my muscle press, ammomaster,
to do that sizing.And pushing cases out from top
of the die. If RMC did it he'd taper it like
you mention all the way from base, but he makes
side at the base, heavy enough that they
would still be strong. If he takes .012" off each
side at mouth, then he'd take .006" off sides half
way down, where I just moved the brass with
swage dies.Ed

ED- They are just turning the cases at RMC so they coulkd put any dimensions we want on them. Maybe we should have them come std with .50BMG primer pockets and sell 209 primer adapters separately. Then you'd have the best of both worlds. Got my two 12GaFH barrels from Pac-Nor yesterday so no the double rifle project can get going again.-Rob

RIP:
As Ed said the 210F's firing pin stroke length is adjustable. In fact so much so that it can be adjusted at both ends of the spring to get more force from the spring and how far you wish it to protrude past the bolt face. I did a little bit of fiddling with mine just the other day, to see how far I could push it. Now I dont have any means to check the length of the pin protruding past the bolt face, but I did manage to puncture a primer with it on a shot shell. (the shell in question was a misfired bushranger win N°4 shot I had laying around). Now even tho it punctured the primer, it actualy fired it. So that should give you some idea as to how adjustable the firing pin is in the 210F.

Rob:
Mate I like what I'm hearing about your idea for the RMC Rifle styled reamer for a tight fit for the 3.5" Brass but that can handle a 4" round in total (for those nasty drop bears we get). I also thougth about getting the RMC brass with the BMG primer hole, but I then remembered that I cant use .50Cal bits. I also just found out that in OZ(WA), its now illegal to even own ANYTHING for a .50Cal BMG, but .505Gibbs is legal. WTF!!!!! So I have no bloody idea what sort of primer the guys with a .505gibbs are using! So I'm stuck to using RMC Brass with a large rifle primer of some type at best for a total Round length of 4" (thats brass and projy). I'd like to be able to make the projectile about 1" in length maximum. You think you could knock up the spec for said reamer and send me a copy?

PS: yeah I know its fraked up over here, we got some real stupid wankers in the government.

PS,PS: I just went and re-read the Firearms Act, so long as the Primer's dont actualy say .50Cal BMG anywhere on the packing box, I'm fine - I think. Its quite clear tho that anything labled 50Cal BMG is illegal. Having never bought large primers over here does it say anything like that on the box ? Talk about spliting hairs!!

I was wondering if the CCI Primer M34 MIL-SPEC could be a possible substitute for the .35 BMG and privide a better ignition than the SG 209 primers for slower powders ? As far as I can tell, those I can get quite legaly, since they dont specify a cal at all. Since RMC will cut any size primer hole you ask for, maybe its the way to go for me.

Ive got some IMI .50BMG primers that just have a lot number on the box. Nothing else! I think I have 500 of thewm.-Rob

Rob and Ed,
I won't be doing this with my "Tool Time" at home, but ...
Is it feasible to simply convert the 209 primer pocket on the RMC 3.5" brass into a BMG primer pocket?
No insert/adapter would be needed going that way.

I do not have the exact specs but to my calipers and eyes it appears:

CCI-35 50BMG primer
O.D. of pocket ~ 0.318"
depth of pocket ~ .225"
flash hole diameter ~ 0.200 to 0.220"

CCI-209 shotgun primer
O.D. of flange on outer surface: 0.312"
O.D. of main cylinder of the primer: 0.240"
flash hole opens to full O.D. of primer: 0.240"
O.D. of the superficial recess seating the flange: about 0.320"

A CCI-35 primer will fit into the superficial recess that seats the CCI-209 flange, near perfect fit.

The thickness of the brass on the bottom of the RMC 3.5" case is the same as that of the 50BMG cartridge, about 0.350" at the center, thinnest part, and thicker on the sides near the case walls (semi-hemispherical, like the 50BMG case).

Countersinking a hole of ~0.317" diameter and 0.225" depth into the shotgun primer hole
in that RMC 3.5" brass
would produce a BMG primer pocket with a slightly enlarged flash hole.

I'll be asking RMC what they think about making 3.85" brass with either shotgun or BMG primer pockets.

And, should RMC ever attempt to make slimmer 12ga brass, is Ed's drawing at ammoguide the final word on brass specs for the slim reamer?

Still looking for a reamer drawing or specs to go with the slim chamber!



As drawn out as this is getting, I have a mind to just stick with standard 3.5" 12ga shotgun brass from RMC, shotgun primers, Blue dot duplex with H50BMG, and be done with it.
Just order some more RMC 3.5" 12ga brass like already exists, and go to town!
No lack of clarity there.
My reamer is proper 12ga spec.
Will handle all standard 12ga plastic 3.5" hulls, and then some!
I need to go elephant hunting with that.

Think of the possibilities!
$200 dollar shotgun on Jumbo control patrol!

quote:

CCI-35 50BMG primer
O.D. of pocket ~ 0.318"
depth of pocket ~ .225"
flash hole diameter ~ 0.200 to 0.220"

Actual pocket dimensions for CCI#35 Primer.

O.D. = .3125" + .0005" (1/4" flat end mill interpolated to kill edge radii)

Depth = .223"

Flash hole = .1405" (#28, 9/64", or 3.5mm drill)

The primer itself is .3170" +.0005" diameter.

.228" compressed to .220" when armed.

Good poop Mac!
Obviously I am just farting around with the BMG primer specs.

Will leave these developments for others, not going there, thank you.

Will stick with standard shotgun chamber and brass specs, and standard shotgun primers.
Mine will be a true shotgun 12 Ga 3.5", and has plenty more room in it.
I have not even stopped using the fiber filler wads yet.
Plenty of room for more kaboom for me!

Now as for the Lee slug sizing die for .730" ...
I have been bugging them monthly since October 15, 2008 ... I am going to give them 2 months, until April Fool Day ... before I bug them again.

Might have to cut off a 4" segment of heavy 12ga rifled barrel
and thread one end to fit a 1.25"x12tpi press.
Then short chamber with my shotgun reamer from the threaded end,
leaving an inch or two of rifling at the other end.

Then use the "shootaway rifle cleaning technique"
to polish an inch of .729-cal rifling down to smooth bore .730".

Or a straight-sided .730" reamer to
make my own 12ga lead slug sizer to avoid the shootaway elbow grease and uncertainty.
Then, maybe turn an entire NEF Ultra Slug rifled barrel into a .730" smoothbore 12Ga 3.5" with custom forcing cone,
capable of handling turkey loads from hell.
At least one ounce each of shot sizes 5, 6, and 7.5, loaded into a single shell.

I may have to take it to the shotgun forum from here.

RIP- Yes its easy to mod a RMC case to take .50BMG primers. Primer flashole is much larger but doubt that hurts at these pressures. Macifej's specs are correct as per my measurements. With a simple adapter you could use either ba .50BMG primer or a 209. -Rob

quote:

Might have to cut off a 4" segment of heavy 12ga rifled barrel

12GaFH Derringer .....

Rob - have you guys loaded BP or BP substitute in any of the 12GAFH variants ...??

Ok- I made the mouth chamber size at .775-.777", so that with
the .806-807" chamber base you could still get a 2.75"
plastic case in it. I could have made chamber mouth area smaller,
but getting 2.75" plastic case in would have been hard.
But it was small enough to minimize brass expansion and
overworking brass. Mouth dimensions (.765") of specs on Ammoguide
is what I got with largest lead slugs. I figure with a .777"
chamber mouth size, anyone wanting RMC brass thinned and full length,
that .770" would do and with .729" bore, and not be sloppy,
and not have to much expansion. A .777 mouth much tighter than reg .798"

Putting bmg primer in a case is just
using end mill with a stop and finish with reamer.Ed

Mac- No never fooled with BP in this case. I hate cleaning up after it.-Rob

Dave Casey at RMC says he does not have a cutter for 50BMG primer pockets and he does not want one!

I am going to get him to make some 3.85" 12Ga brass to fit my Dave Kiff reamer ... with the shotgun primer pocket.

If I get randy enough, I will have my smithy get a cutter to cut a pocket for BMG primers to the specs that Macifej gave,
for the 50BMG primer, only I will have a bigger flash hole that will be even more effective, and no problems at 12GaFH pressures.

There is only one true 12GaFH reamer.
Get it from Dave Kiff.

Actually the one true reamer came from JGS.I can't find the print and need to get another copy from them. The primer pocket cutter is a $5 5/16 4 flute endmill on sale at Msc.About as difficult to do as drilling a hole.-Rob

Rob,
Thanks for the .3125" 4-flute endmill tip.
It only seems proper that to be a 12ga shotgun, whether from hell or purgatory,
it should be 12ga spec and primed with a shotgun primer ...
RMC will make it up to 4" long ... and built like a brick dunny.
I think 3.85" length is great.

Here is my 12GA FH Savage 210 with thumbhole
stock, I put on in place of first one that cracked.
Along with weight and heavy barrel handles recoil
great. It is a Boyd and came inleted for Savage
112, and I re-did inleting to fit 210 and
heavy barrel,and got rid of monte carlo
outline.Ed

Ed,
Do you have steel rods buried in the "wrists" of that stock?

I will next try those plastic over-shot disks to segregate the Blue Dot starter from the slower powder.
Your suggestion.
Supposed to shatter on ignition.
If reliable, better than Kleenex.

BTW, a burning bush appeared to me in a dream and said that I must call the shotgun-primed RMC 3.85" 12ga brass,
as well as the reamer to match it from Dave Kiff,
verily:

12 Gauge Heavy Shot 3.85"

12GaHS

Rob has already got dibbs on 12GaFH 3.85".

I'll play "Marlin" to his "Winchester."

I ordered a straight 0.730" bore reamer from Dave Kiff, and will see if I can make my own slug sizer before Lee gets around to it.

Got two bolts in wrist. Yes thin plastic
overshot separating powders will work great.Ed

A new factory spring was installed and it takes 20 pounds to cock the hammer instead of 18 pounds. The old one sat cocked and trigger-locked and cable-tied at Gander Mountain for possibly years before I liberated it.

This is on the golf ball launcher.
Its hammer-top-stop was also faced down a bit so the firing pin protrudes about 0.075" now instead of about 0.050" as stock.

Will see if it pierces shotgun primers now, or is merely reliable with CCI-35 primers and tight fitting brass.

How far will a CCI-35 alone, blank load, launch a golf ball, versus a CCI-209 and 15 grains of Blue Dot? 45-degree elevation.


I dreamt again last night. The burning bush reappeared and said:

"Rip! Sorry! "Heavy Shot" is already trade-marked. Doh!
"You better call it "12 Gauge Heavy Slug 3.85", or maybe "12Ga from Heaven?"
"And don't forget to use the "?" in the barrel engraving."

So, "12GaFH" = "12 Gauge From Hell."
And, "12GaFH?" = "12 Gauge From Heaven?"

The 12gaFH? uses RMC brass and standard 12ga chamber specs, just a straight-sided stretch from 3.5" to 3.85", with same minimum chamber neck diameter and maximum cartridge neck diameter of 0.798".

And here are a couple of the 12GaFH? NEF-ers,
one with Vais brake, one with Faux 1-Bore muzzle, both capable of 5-Bore weight of lead slug from a 12-Bore barrel:



Inch-thick steel in the base of the NcStar golf ball launcher "1-bore":



Corresponding threads on the muzzle, same on both NEF-ers:



Golf Ball Maw, about 1.695" ID, one-bore is 1.670":



The aluminum thread protector makes for 0.875" Faux 7-Bore muzzle:



Threading of the aluminum "muzzle cap," should be O.K. for sabot-slugged light loads:

Beautiful Stuff RIP..!!!

Are you able to replace your 9 Iron with that beast or what ...??

I see a series of Danderbusses in your future ...

I just can't believe that Monica Lewinsky is going to be 36 years old this year

Macifej,
Those golfers cluttering my yard with their Titleists may get them returned!
I am also thinking of finding a true 1-bore lead ball with dimples and painted white.
Set that up on a tee and see what it does to a driver.

Would dimples improve the aerodynamics of a 2-bore round ball?

Maybe I need a mould fore 12-bore lead golf balls ...

AzGuy,
I think I get it.
Have a big ceegar, no forget the ceegar ... just a cold beer and try to quit thinking about where Bill Clinton liked to stick his cigars ...

Ah so grasshopper. You found honorable Devils Japanese Grenade Launcher. We surrender! -Rob

quote:

Would dimples improve the aerodynamics of a 2-bore round ball?

quote:

Those golfers cluttering my yard with their Titelists may get them returned!

Be sure to use liberal amounts of real BP so they know it's incoming and where it came from ...

Well...RATSCHAT...something on my lathe broke...the travel...won't...at least I finished the MB and the unfinished thumbhole stock came in...and I can still thread, but the weather went from nice to foul...more snow on the way...for the next week. Maybe I will get the rechamber/long throat 45-100 to 45-120 done while I figure out what Murphy did to me.

Bully good show, Foobar.
A CCI-209 primer launches my golf ball only 20 feet ...
And I still cannot get a CCI-35 primer to go off reliably in my true shotgun spec chamber, using the Nohbozo brass.
It is just too loose a fit in my chamber.

My latest NEF-er had more slop in the base of the factory 3" shotgun chamber than the first.
My PT&G reamer did not take the bluing off the breech end of the chamber for about 1.5", even though inserted to the full 3.85" depth, until contact was made with the rim recess.

With the fresh spring and greater firing pin protrusion, it still seems just perfect for CCI-209 shotgun primers.

I am expecting to just stick with shotgun primers and Blue Dot in the RMC 12Ga brass.

That is a sweet combination.

I may test how far the various shotgun primers launch a golf ball, to see if any is more powerful than the others.

Thanks, Rip...

Maybe you can make achamber adapter to use 22, 25 cal or larger blanks, something like used in the impact nail guns the carpenters use to shoot in 2x6's in concrete...those blanks are readily available at any hardware store. If the blanks can shoot in a hardened nail into concrete they should give you a little more umph for your "white missles". The adapter should be easy to make out of brass.

I guess I'm still a ha-fasst retired(retarded) profesional meckanik...I got the lathe apart and found it was only a roll pin sheared. After checking out the gearing inside that apron, I'm definitely glad it wasn't one of those pieces and parts...that would be a bit pricy...A wild ride to town in a pouring rainstorm, hitting every hardware store in town before finding the right size and back solved the problem and I got the lathe back running...I even re-adjusted the nut on the cross slide to get rid of most of the wear slack...amazing.

I have another MB design...copy of Hollands "quick discharge" only BIGGER...drawn up so I will order some 1 3/4" HR 4140 today...the endmills, R8 holders and drills were ordered last night.

This project is moving along, albeit slowly...still have to make the dies and maybe figure a way to get a larger press or get the adapter out of my Rockchucker...that press is near 40 years old and the adapter is probably stuck in there forever.

I would give $1000 to win one of those Lotto things...

Luck on your projects.

Foobar- Nice Muzzel Brake! Glad to hear you got your Lathe fixed too! Have you shot yours yet? I want more range reports!
RIP you should be able to adjust your rims to take up the slack. You can usually get the threaded case head to stick up above the rim enough to zero headspace the chamber. Because the threads are tight, you may have to use a plastic hammer to tap around the rim till it turns. Give that a try!-Rob

FOOBAR,
No adaptors planned for the handgun blanks.

I am thinking of a "12ga Shortie" blank:
Get a Remington high brass plastic hull and cut it off at 1-inch length, just above the brass,
with less than a quarter inch of plastic showing above the brass-plated steel base.
Fill this 1" 12ga Shortie hull with Red Dot.
Glue a Nitro Card over the top of the powder.

Will the Red Dot ignite reliably with only a bit of glued-in cardboard resisting the primer blast?
Or just a 3.85" RMC brass hull with same powder charge and a fiber wad pressed down on top of the powder,
to limit exposure of the chamber to burning powder,
during heavy siege activity at the golf course.

Rob,
I have a go gauge for 12ga from Dave Kiff.
It looks good with that, though I have not tried a no-go gauge,
but it does look flush with factory 12ga ammo and fires all of that reliably.

I think there is just too much lateral wall vibrational slop in my chambers for use of your brass.

Firing your brass in my chamber will not be pretty, if it ever gets fully formed.

I am sticking with the standard shotgun chamber specs and RMC brass made to SAAMI 12ga spec ... just stretched by 0.35" to 3.85".

I will get some more load data and chronography with Brass Darwins.
I will start over at 170 grains of H50BMG, and will work up from there, now that I have a brake.

Also the Lead Darwins in Linotype and Zinc Darwins ... after I get my gunsmith to make a sizing die for me,
soon as Dave Kiff delivers the straight-sided .730" chucking reamer.

Since Lee Precision has been blowing me off on the .730" slug sizer since the Oct. 15, 2008 request,
I will email them on April Fool Day and see if they plan to keep me in Limbo.

Rip; Maybe the full length brass case would be best, you certainly don't want any gas cutting in the chamber area...and you definitely need to generate a bit of gas to fill that large tube but not enough to cause a mischief anywhere. Approach it slow...I've used quite a bit of 700 and 800 shotgun powder to fireform large rifle cases...not quite as peaky as Bullseye.

Rob...no range work yet...the 3", 750 gr slug loads I popped off in my Rem and Mossy before I began this project were enough to open my eyes wide. Recoil in the light guns was right at or slightly more than the century mark and running around the 1800 fs range...I was waiting until I got the MB finished, thumbhole stock padded and some weight added to start with the 3.5" plastic, 600-1000 plus gr brass and lead slugs


I have the Holland copy MB turned to 1.65" OD and drilled to 3/4" ID on centers from one end and will swap ends tomorrow to finish drilling, turn OD on centers to square up, then turn and cut the inside threads and set up in the mill to cut the vents...I'm dickering with what size to cut the vent slots...0.5625" - 4 vents for about 5 sq in, 5 vents for about 6.2 sq in vent area or 0.625" - 4 vents for 6 sq in or 5 vents for 7.68 sq in. That's roughly equal to the 50 cal Vias brake to about 1.5 times larger...any one should be plenty for my purposes.

The larger "nobbynose" will add some weight out on the end and help keep the muzzle down, plus no bottom holes might help also...I made a similar one for my 15" XP100 - 7mm-08...sure made a difference...went from a pissed bobcat bent on climbing my frame to a purring pussycat wanting it's ears scratched.

Wonder what kind of barrel flexing I will get???

Anyway...it's all fun.

Luck on your projects.

Got my two 12ga Barrels from Pac-Nor so the double 12GaFH project is back on. Its threading soldering and chambering time now.-Rob

I found a shotgun primer that will ignite rifle powders,
like RL15-19, IMR 4064,4198, etc. With regular shotgun
primers I had to use Blue Dot starter.
But not with these.....They are the industrial
shotgun primers used in the 8ga kiln gun cases. I use
these cases with basecup reduced in my 8 gauges.
When I set up first 8ga I fired the primers only to test
firing function(cases came with primer), then I put
regular 209 primers in to test loads, with 4759 powder.
Found box of WIN paper case kiln 3oz loads and took one
apart and noticed it had 94gr of some ball powder.
I wondered what powder is and how a regular shotgun primer
could ignite that, based on our need for starter powder
using regular rifle powders. So I fired that industrial
primer and flame and sparks came out of 8ga NEF barrel
2-3 feet. Put a regular primer in same case and flame
just a few inches. So I took REM kiln case with original
REM industrial primer and 2-3 feet of flame,and put regular
primer in and just few inches of flame. If anyone got
info on th powder used and how to get these primers,
let us know. I took some out of 8ga and put in 12ga plastic.
Using these hairy industrial primers today fired 180gr
of RL-15, in 12GA FH NEF, in 3.5" plastic cases with
437gr Brenekke KO slug. Got perfect ignition, no starter.
140gr with 600gr dixie, perfect ignition.
Also I have the 12ga Encore that we tested loads
in, on Gunbroker, in shotgun singleshot section.Ed

Ed,
That is very encouraging to a devotee of the RMC 3.85" 12ga brass. Thanks.
I know a Remington R&D Engineer and will ask him about the primers used in Remington 8-gauge kiln gun shells.
I hope that primer is not like the F216 primers, made by Federal of unobtaniumperpublicum.

Just from limited testing these industrial primers are
much more than so-called 209Mag primers or the
F216. A huge increase in the amount of flame.
Even much hotter than socalled mag primers
ballyhood for inline muzzle loaders.
Have your friend tell REM and WIN that if worried
about safety, in selling these for the uses
we want, that they could spray them red while in
the trays and have instruction warning that the red ones
are not to be used for shotgun powder loads.
Be safe as about anything else reloaders are
supposed to and always do.Ed

Very interesting, very interesting indeed. I like a few others await the out come of this and do hope that the primer type can be named as well as obtained! Good find Ed.