The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores 12 Ga From Hell -WOWGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| one of us |
My 14" longer barrel than Rob's does part of difference, but just as much was smaller case volumne and the starter powder making the HBMG faster and super clean burn on that 1000 gr load, both making difference in NEF. Kicked almost as hard the 1200gr slug at 2900 in my 700HE heavy boltgun. Of course the stock on boltgun is better for hairy recoil than break action stock.Try not to get too much airspace in slow DB powder. Oh and offhand 700HE hairy loads I use cushion bag too.Ed MZEE WA SIKU | |||
|
| one of us |
Jay, I just lifted that out of COTW, for the 4-bore. Supposedly the actual weights used, and the velocity range. As you know, those rare nominal 2-bore guns were often actually closer to 4-bores, and a lot of nominal 4-bores were actually 5-bore or 6-bore in ball size. My 12GaFH is actually a 5-bore.  Noted: A true 4-bore is supposed to throw a ball of 4 to the pound: 7000/4 = 1750 grains. Now for some modern-day 4-bore actual ball and conical measurements and actual ballistics please. Welcome to both internal and external ballistic information of the 4-bore type.  | |||
|
| One of Us |
Got me....that thing is too small to get my interest...  | |||
|
| one of us |
Right now 4bores range from .938" to 1.052". If I'm around long enough to complete 2 and 4 bores I plan on 4 bore with case I made matching Ken Owen's 4bore case of 1" bore, and Naval Ordanances 1" slugs. And maybe future Bertram cases.And seeing as how I like the Lyman style 12ga lead deer slug I will make 4ga slugs of 15-1600 gr like them. Where you get a mold and cast them.In a well built falling block gun should get 2500. In a good break action with our loads 2000.Ed MZEE WA SIKU | |||
|
| One of Us |
| |||
|
One of Us |
Hmmm,4 bore...well,out of my 22.5" barrels,we got a ez 1400 with 2000gr Jacketed bullets(True 1" bore)..It is regulated at that,but Ken said 1500 is not a problem,but for rerugulation and recoil!(Ken is 140pds soaking wet with a loaded ammo belt on) I think that is about 10k energy and a TKO well over 400,close to 500 I think? When you guys are done with the 12ga from Hell,lets get a 4 Bore Sizzlin!Push the Naval Bronze solids to 2000+! Ouch! "That's not a knife..THIS is a KNIFE" ! | |||
|
one of us |
In the 12Gafh Borchardt Gun I got 1550fps with a 2000gr Borerider. Could prpbably push 2000fps with that gun if you could stand it. That was with about 240 gr of Rl-22 as i remember. Recoil was Very BAD. I've never used cards before generally preferring to find loads with > 90 load density. I'll try and find some and try them. I suspect that it isnt so much I have a super strong hammer spring, but the RIMS I make allow for a more effective hammer strike and my Primers are also correctly armed. I believe thats why my gun is so reliable.-Rob Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers to do incredibly stupid things- AH (1941)- Harry Reid (aka Smeagle) 2012 Nothing Up my sleeves but never without a plan and never ever without a surprise! | |||
|
| One of Us |
Are you using the cupped or flat seating ram with the CCI primer...??? | |||
|
| one of us |
You cannot use the cupped primer seating ram with the CCI-35 primers. That will result in endless misfires in any gun, because the primer wont arm with the cup.The flat ram is correct. You already know about primer pocket reaming and depth can not be more than .002 below the head of the case. The primers should seat smoothly with very little resistance. If they are overly flattened, the pellet will be damaged and it wont go off. By arming, I am describing the process of flattening the primer head over the priming pellet and anvil. They are not armed as they come from the factory like almost all other primers. The hammer strike will always set off a properly armed .50BMG primer. It is very easy unfortunately to get this wrong and have misfires. I learned this the hard way in FCSA competitions. Skip Talbot taught me all about .50BMG primers and what to do and not do. Basically with my threaded rims I can screw the case out till the Nef will just close on the case i.e zero headspace. With a correctly armed .50BMG primer even a .060 firing pin will set it off at least for me every time. I have two more new NEF's here and they all fire the .50BMG primers set up as I've described.Are they marginal? perhaps and a stronger spring cant hurt, but they do work.-Rob Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers to do incredibly stupid things- AH (1941)- Harry Reid (aka Smeagle) 2012 Nothing Up my sleeves but never without a plan and never ever without a surprise! | |||
|
| one of us |
To be armed, the primer is slightly flattened and seated flush or no more than .002" deep? That would seem to require a flat-ended primer seating punch? This is a new concept to me, since mentioned by Rob earlier. Must be a 50BMG accuracy detail? I'll get on to Nohbozo brass with CCI-35 loads after I get the RMC brass loads worked up to 1372 grains at 1525 fps. Obviously Rob can exceed any modern 4-bore DR load for KE and MD by using a 2000-gr bore-rider in his Borchardt at 1550 fps. More fun than I will be likely to stand! As Ed confirms, I have found the RMC 3.5" case with 209 primer and 15 grains of Blue Dot to be a very efficient internal combustion engine. I might be able to get rid of all wads when powder charges get high enough. I doubt I will have to push it to any pressure level that will expand the RMC base at all. Will see.  The lowly NEF-er can exceed the old elephant hunter's 4-bore loads for KE and MD, as well as handle the factory slug loads for deer, and handloads in 2-3/4" to 3.5" plastic hulls. Maybe a buckshot load for 12GaFH can be loaded without a cup wad, and be able to produce some semblance of a useful pattern? Anyway you cut it, the 12GaFH is more versatile than a 4-bore, and can be loaded to kick as hard, for chest beating purposes. (insert Tarzan yodel here) Zinc cast bullet loads can be long bullets that are 40% lighter than cast lead: Self sufficiency of any 12GaFH shotgunner will demand ability to cast slugs in lead alloy and pure zinc for heavy and light bullet loads. I need a new mould for a pointy zinc bullet that is boattailed and grease-groove-driving-banded, no gascheck needed for velocities up to 2400 fps? From COTW, 9th Ed., M.L. McPherson, pg. 474:  | |||
|
| One of Us |
The "arming" is merely pressing the anvil into the cup .008" so that the top of the anvil touches the inside of the cup. The distance from the exterior surface of the cup to the face of the rim depends on the particular weapon and what type of striker is used. It could be 1/4" away if you have a firing pin with adequate force and that much reach. Flat -vs- cupped rams are probably the result of cupped cups (CCI) and flat cups (other). | |||
|
| One of Us |
RIP - what are you using for an alloy here...?? Zinc/?? is the stuff totally lead free..?? | |||
|
| one of us |
http://www.rotometals.com/product-p/zincingots.htm $2.29/pound, free shipping for zinc ingots, 99.9% min. purity. http://www.rotometals.com/aboutus.asp I have ordered about 60 pounds of zinc and 54 pounds of Linotypealloy for 12GaFH experimental purposes. First will see what a Zinc Darwin weighs and measures from the Brooks True-Bore mould, before ordering a 12GaFH boattail spitzer mould. Might cast an 850-grain Zinc Darwin. Need a pointy zinc bullet mould that casts bullets about .730" diameter and how long can I go in a 1:35" twist ... how long can the mould maker go in his "tall" blocks? Answer: 1.75" | |||
|
| One of Us |
Looks like they have all kinds of goodies which can be melted... Pretty expensive bullets even without the labor o casting... | |||
|
| one of us |
An 850-grain zinc bullet would turn the 12GaFH 5-bore thrower into an 8-bore thrower for varmints. Still not throwing like a girl! 850 grains of zinc is only 28 cents per bullet for the materials. The labor is a labor of love. $2.29 per pound of zinc. makes 8.235 of the 850-grain bullets per 7000-grain pound of zinc. $0.28 per 850-grain zinc bullet. 28 cents plus love. | |||
|
| One of Us |
LOVE to see a good IWBB test Brass -vs- Zinc... If the Zinc holds up reasonably well I can think of another application which would be quite amusing... | |||
|
| one of us |
Sounds like I may have to get the old Iron WaterBoard Buffalo out to pasture again for a Texas Heart Shot test of Leadalloy, Brass, and Zinc Darwins. 1372-grain Leadalloy: 1525 fps, Mo = 298.9 lbs-ft/s 1086-grain Brass: 1750 fps, Mo = 271.5 850-grain Zinc: 2200 fps, Mo = 267.1 And a lighter spitzer zinc bullet at 2400 fps. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Encore, encore...  Don't know how you are able to do it without Ratzeputz in the peak of Ratzeputz season... | |||
|
| one of us |
RIP- I'll help test the zinc when they are ready. Rob, yes by setting rims for tight proper headspace you eliminate the problem of NEF's loose rim chambering. Gets a much better primer hit. And they do that because of the great variety in case headspace from factory and peoples reloads. On shotgun forums some factory were .065" headspace. Specs call for .057" If you take expanded plastic cases and use regular sizers, headspace can be up to .070"--- so shotgun makers build in a little slop. If we were building NEF barrels from scratch we'd make headspace tight on brass case like you did in Borchardt and I did in Savage, and headspace problems go away. You can get the whole variety of .070" - 1/8" cards, and 1/4"- 3/8" - 1/2" felt wads from Precision. I'll send catalogs with cases. Ed MZEE WA SIKU | |||
|
| one of us |
ED- Thanks, send a few wads and cards also if you dont mind. Yes the NEF chamber is very sloppy and the best way to get around that is to just adjust the rims till the case head protrudes a little bit above the Rim and the gun still locks up tight. With the primer .002 below the case head, the NEF firing pin then will light off .50BMG primers every time. RIP- Do you know there is a specific disease associated with Zinc oxide fumes called "Metal FUME FEVER". I unfortunately got it as a kid making ZINC and PEWTER bullets. I could not afford jacketed bullets then so cast bullets accounted for 100% of what I shot. I NEVER EVER WAS SO SICK in my life! Yes poor ventilation was the cause, but it was scary! I used to wear a WWII gas mask while casting that stuff and thats still a good idea! No issues with PEWTER which is a 95% plus alloy of TIN/copper/antimony. That stuff casted better than linotype and I loved it when I could find it. Made bullets nearly as light as Zinc but far safer to cast. The Pewter bullets also had good penetration in surprisingly hard materials.-Rob Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers to do incredibly stupid things- AH (1941)- Harry Reid (aka Smeagle) 2012 Nothing Up my sleeves but never without a plan and never ever without a surprise! | |||
|
| One of Us |
Seems the tin ingots are about 5 times the price of the zinc ingots... | |||
|
| one of us |
My class has a bunch of pewter statues with an Eagle and American Flag, 6" high. A classmate and I got them for our 45th and this years 50th class reunion, for our guys and gals still around.The Farwell Eagles... MI Class 59. We won't melt them down, but I notice they are real hard like Dixies heat treated lead slugs. Rob- I have couple bushels cards/wads running from 28ga to 8ga. I'll send bunch 12ga. Don't want any NEFs turned into steel banana peels.Ed MZEE WA SIKU | |||
|
| one of us |
Rob, Please see quote below the drawing. I am aware of metal fume fever. Ed, We'll have to see if I survive to send you some zinc slugs. And here is an idea for a bullet that could be cast in zinc and might be lighter and more aerodynamic than a Darwin. It could be fired forward or backward too, depending on your mood: Football anyone? 
| |||
|
| One of Us |
Interesting that Zinc Stearate was used as a bath powder a hundred years ago or so. Now it's the primary ingredient in mold release spray. Wonder if you can use Zinc Stearate Mold Release Spray to release the Cast Zinc Slug...??? | |||
|
| one of us |
Build a 12GaFH with a 1:15" twist and find a sabot to adapt the .729" grooves to .510" bullets and then use milsurp 50BMG bullets in the 12GaFH.  | |||
|
| One of Us |
Think I saw that somewhere already. I'd like to see a 52100 chrome ball bearing of say .625" loaded in a sabot and launched from a 12GAFH... | |||
|
| one of us |
I posterd a Pic of a Dart stabilized 12GaFH aluminum carrier with a 750gr A-max in it about 9 mo ago. looked stupid actually! I've also launched 386 gr Remington Sabots at well over 4000fps from the Borchardt with accuracy well beyond 150yrds. Basically if you can make a sabot you can launch nearly anything from this thing. Now multiple Ball bearings in a 12GaFH sabot might be interesting! Wonder how that would work. Dispersion should occur but at what range? Shoulder Fired Claymore imitator! Seriously, look at casting Pewter bullets. I had much better luck with them vs zinc years ago. Zinc tended to make nasty looking bullets with crystalization and heavy frosting issues vs Pewter which came out looking like linotype bullets. Just a suggestion. Bullet drawing looks good to me, I like the HP version better than the hollow base though. Cant do both by CNC easily. -Rob Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers to do incredibly stupid things- AH (1941)- Harry Reid (aka Smeagle) 2012 Nothing Up my sleeves but never without a plan and never ever without a surprise! | |||
|
| one of us |
Rob, Yep, I recall, now that you mention it, the 50BMG bullet as the head of an aluminum-shafted spear... but this thread is getting so long, that I lapsed into sometimer's disease on that one. Pewter is $10.99/pound versus $2.29/pound for zinc. You know I like ugly! In zinc or aluminum the "Pigskinner" slug would indeed be better with no holes, or a shallow hollow-point nose only, or a pointier nose than the .2" nose meplat. Maybe the zinc Pigskinner Slug would weigh about 750 grains and Ed could easily Get 2400 fps with it. That would make point-and-shoot 200-yard varmint shooting possible with a 12GaFH, and 300-yards and more with hold-over. I am worried about contaminating the Lead Darwin mould with zinc. That would not be Kosher. Need another mould, eh? Some say you should have a sprue plate hole that is 25% greater diameter, since the molten zinc is a bit more viscous than lead. It hardens quickly and stays hard, no water-dropping needed, no heat-treating needed, and you can work faster, not needing to let the mould cool as much between massive pours like a Darwin requires. I still don't know the BHN of zinc, but I am getting there. They say zinc machines almost as well as brass, but it is only a little lighter than brass. Sp.g's: Al = 2.7 g/cc Brass: 7.3 to 8.4, heavier ones used for bullets Copper: 8.94 Lead: 11.34 Zinc: about 7.1 ... still looking for zinc data Guess if a zinc Pigskinner Slug weighed 750 grains, then in aluminum it would weigh about 285 grains, a mere piglet skinner.  | |||
|
| one of us |
News Flash: Since the call-in campaign (1-866-776-9292) started by Ed, about requesting 28"-barreled Ultra Slugs, Jim Shockey has signed a new deal with NEF, abandoning TC. From now on Jim hunts only with an NEF-er Chambered for 12GaFH, using smokeless powders, and carrying a ramrod only for knocking stuck cases out of the NEF-er. Jim commented: "It sure will be nice not to have all that smoke obscuring my video kill shots!" NEF is bringing out a 28"-barreled Ultra Slug model which Jim will be instrumental in promotoing as soon as he gets his hernia fixed. NEF is also planning a lighter-barreled smoothbore chambered for the 3.85" 12GaFH which patterns better than any 12, 10, or 8 gauge gun ever to grace the sporting field. Jim will now be set to handle anything from an Argentine duck shoot to blue whaling from a dingy. BTW, some "Brinell Hardness" in units foreign to me from a scientific listing of pure elements: Lead: 38.3 M N m*-2 Aluminum: 245 Zinc: 412 Copper: 874 The commonly used BHN for pure lead is 5. I don't offer any way to convert the "MNm*-2" to BHN. Nor do I comment on the hardness of pure lead, aluminum, and copper, versus the alloys that get used for bullets.  Still looking for a BHN of the common scale on cast zinc. May have to measure it myself with the Lee tester. | |||
|
| One of Us |
The 412 number is MPa...there's a long formula for this but not important here. Divide your MPa number by 9.8 to get BHN So elemental zinc is about 42 BHN. I saw a paper where Zinc was processed to 72 HRC...so you'll probably want to read up more about how to cast/treat your Zinc to get the desired hardness/ductility. Not an easy metal to work with as far as controlling it's condition. | |||
|
| one of us |
RIP- What diameter slug is your Darwin mold dropping with 10:1 lead/tin? One thing about zinc is you can't easily reduce the size if its too large. Maybe hydraulically, but not manually! I believe a NEF barrel is .730 so your mold cant drop bullets greater than .731 or you'll need a new mold. At least you will know what dimensions to specify for your Zinc mold once you try it.. That was another problem I had with zinc bullets when I made them many moons ago. Pewter acted like linotype and my old Lyman molds worked perfectly. In the old days I could buy pewter by the 100lb sack. A trip to the local printer usually got linotype for free. Those days are long gone! BTW for 200yrd shooting your bullets need to be perfect, no voids, slag crystals etc. Bullet imperfections really show up at long range. For short range no issues. Used to buy 100lb sacks of zinc dust and sulfur for my model rocket hobby back when I was a kid. -Rob Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers to do incredibly stupid things- AH (1941)- Harry Reid (aka Smeagle) 2012 Nothing Up my sleeves but never without a plan and never ever without a surprise! | |||
|
| one of us |
Jay, Thanks. That makes sense. I recall googling up the article about the "breakthrough" in surface hardening of zinc ... but that was about the time I went to sleep, and failed to get down to the basic info you have supplied. Much appreciated. Newtons, meters, Pascals ... ZZZ ... | |||
|
| one of us |
Rob, 30:1 lead/tin casts .731" max, and weighs 1401 grains. No sizing needed. Water dropped and aged, my BHN was about 15.9, harder than "textbook." My "Special No.2 Alloy" (~90/4.5/5/0.5-- Pb/Sn/Sb/As), similar to Lyman No.2 but made with special Kentucky Fried ingredients, casts .734" max, and weighs 1372 grains. Water dropped and aged the BHN was 21.9, about what air-cooled Linotype is supposed to be by "textbook." Of course my BHN's are by me with a Lee Hardness tester.  Heat-treated alloy with arsenic content (like clip-on wheel weights) is supposed to get into the 30's for BHN but softens over time. Zinc beats them all for hardness, it seems, but softer than copper or brass, easy on barrels, little fouling, casts well, and is about 62% of the weight of lead. I will risk another mould first, for zinc versus lead diameter and weight comparison, before I try the Darwin mould to figure out what is needed ... I am getting metal fume fever already, without a sniff of zinc oxide yet!  Maybe Mr. Brooks knows already ... | |||
|
| One of Us |
Easy stuff...I'm hoping you're able to develop some method for casting in Zinc with excellent results so I can borrow your technique for an application I have in mind...the projects never end... | |||
|
| one of us |
RIP- My memory is jogging a bit. I remember the zinc bullets were brittle as hell due to the crystalization. When you cast them and after they have hardened, cut one open with a dremel and see what it looks like. Basically went to dust when they impacted on hard stuff. They were hard as hell at Room Temp but if you heated them up, they would get soft enough to size through the old lyman sizer I had. Never liked them as much as Pewter or Linotype metal, but did shoot a fair number of them. The good news is you dont need alot of heat to melt Zinc ( 420 C) which at one time was a real problem for me for some of the other alloys I played with. -Rob Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers to do incredibly stupid things- AH (1941)- Harry Reid (aka Smeagle) 2012 Nothing Up my sleeves but never without a plan and never ever without a surprise! | |||
|
| one of us |
Rob, If they go to dust on varmints, that's OK. Will deliver a tight pattern at long range. Price per pound is less than some lead alloys, and more bullets per pound. They always were used in the past for plinking and targets, never recommended for game. But has anyone ever used them as large as 12ga? Surely some did. Maybe they died in the field while testing zinc bullets on DG, and never made it to print? | |||
|
| One of Us |
Turms to a cloud of powder at some mach number...makes for good cover when evading large predators... | |||
|
| one of us |
I still have a vintage "pumpkin Ball" lyman mold from the 70's. Never tried zinc in it myself. Mostly .38's. 8mm mauser and 30-06 at the time. Yup, they probably got Metal Fume fever and died with their laddles in their hand!-Rob Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers to do incredibly stupid things- AH (1941)- Harry Reid (aka Smeagle) 2012 Nothing Up my sleeves but never without a plan and never ever without a surprise! | |||
|
| one of us |
 Rob, That was my first guess too, but I was hoping for a more dignified "boots-on" scenario for the demise of the old zinc casters. Don't worry about me. I am NBC Warfare trained. I am currently stymied by Lee Precision who claimed to be a "go" on the .730" slug sizer over 3 months ago. I just sent my monthly inquiry, again. Meanwhile I will be loading some special purpose squirrel loads, 2.25 ounces of "Seven-and-a-half" in a 3.5" hull ... plenty of smoothbore shotguns to handle the 3.5", even some 5-pound shotguns.  The trick will be finding a smoothbore with enough barrel to tolerate the 3.85" reamer. Then work in earnest can be begun on: The Turkey Load from Hell: 3.25 ounces of a mixture of No.4 and No.6 shot in a 3.85" Nohbozo "Hell Hull." The Duck and Goose Load from Hell: 3.25 ounces of Steel T and BB in Hell Hull. Promotion of the 12GaFH requires that we not neglect the smoothbore side of the coin. That 3.85" chamber is like the ultimate custom forcing cone job for even 2-3/4" hulled ammo. Could be the edge for the next Olympics. | |||
|
| one of us |
Fully rifled and smoothbore SxS doubles in 12GaFH are a ways off yet. Until then, load development must continue!  This is the Pardner Turkey Gun in 3.5" 12Ga. It has a heavier barrel profile than the Li'l Pardner smoothbores. Plenty of barrel for extending the chamber to 3.85" 12 GaFH, Forcing Cone From Hell. Has screw-in choke and Hastings Paradox Rifled Choke to fit it is available, or Imp.Cyl., smoothbore, for sabot or Foster-type slugs. The Paradox choke is 5" long, rifled all the way. It will add 3.5" of barrel length when screwed in to the 24" barrel. This will kill some time waiting for the Darwin sizing die. Shotshells From Hell. Same vintage 1893 technology so familiar to NEF-er Lovers, plus screw-in choke and heavy barrel. Rifle-type sights will have to be added to this one, unlike the 5-pound 12ga3.5" that had a nice set factory installed. Catalog says this one is "6 pounds," so it must be missing the 21-ounce iron bar stock weight. Will have to try 22-ounces of mecury in that shotgun butt. | |||
|
| Powered by Social Strata | Page 1 ... 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 ... 75 |
 | Please Wait. Your request is being processed... |
|
The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores 12 Ga From Hell -WOW
Visit our on-line store for AR Memorabilia
