Well, if the FFL-06 is only $30, quadruple fingerprinting, and a 3 month wait for the certificate to arrive, surely "No Bozo Gun Werkes, LLC" could be incorporated in Nevada, and be selling 12GaFH brass by Christmas.

It will make great stocking stuffers. Many uses for it can be envisioned:

12GaFH "shotguns" of all sorts.
50BMG-Rimmed wildcats in falling block single shots, double rifles, maybe even lever actions and pumps.
Properly corked, useful as a pocket flask, etc.

quote:

"No Bozo Gun Werkes, LLC"

Perfect!!

Should we be working up a 50BMG version of a very heavy bore-rider super dart-stabilized “slippery†projectile? I’ll bet the military snipers would be quick to want to evaluate them. And cases are available. And the military can afford high-dollar carrier inserts, like tungsten.

If so, I’ll need to know the max projectile overall length, the maximum grains they would entertain for the projectiles, and the minimum length at the back end for the rifling.

And don't forget, these things will be heavy and will hit the ground point-first even if fired "over the hill".

We might even get a NATO contract.

"... gotta call No Bozo" Sweet!

"Nohbohzo, LLC"

would add a little H&H to the anti-clown sentiment of the company name.

.735" lead roundball ought to work well for fireforming and initial load development.
That should easily swage down to .729" and weigh about 596 grains, and ought to be better than any funky Foster slug.

Yesterday I finished the CNC Rim Pgm and it works perfectly. I also bought enough 7/8 brass rod to make a few hundred rims. Today the case threading pgm gets done. The least expensive approach I think is to partially expand the cases to about .600 anneal them and sell with a rim. If folks want a shorter version, i.e. 3" case well thats even easier. I'll provide fireforming instructions and a .50BMG thread on rim for reloading.
Rims should be quite cheap probably about $5-10 each while cases hopefully will be around $10. Fully fireformed ready to go 12GaFH cases will be around $15 ea. Good news is they last for at least 10-20 reloadings and require little if any trimming.
By the time my new FFL arrives, I'll be ready to go.-Rob

Sounds great, Rob, although I'll have to wait for the pictures to see what you mean. I'm no reloader, and not a 12GaFH shooter, so it really doesn't matter to me anyhow.

I'll stick with the 45ACP version. I now plan to rebarrel in a 32 twist, which is a $71 barrel. Looks like the 50BMG projectiles will be very similar to the 45ACP projectiles.

All the best on your FFL "start". Hope the "business" part does not kill off the "fun" part!

Yep,
Sounds good, keep us posted.

Made 12 Rims yesterday on the prototype machine and it took about a half hour. On the production machine I can knock out fairly large quantities. Also wrote the case pgm and it was even simplier. That will have to remain a semi automated process as the cases will each need to be loaded by hand. But each one takes only a minute or so. The big cost will be fireformed or not.-rob

If I can get them as not fireformed that is cheaper. Therefore I get more cases.
However, everyone in the world should want a few fireformed cases as conversation pieces and tips for game scouts. Leave the fired primer in and supply a cork with the souvenir fire-formed cases. A leather thong for lanyard/necklace also might be handy.

A flask that size will have a lot of uses, such as:
first aid kit/medicine container
ash flask for wind testing
tobacco pouch
fire starter kit
shot glass
etc.













Pictures of a rare 12GaFh case noodled away from Ed Hubel.

Thanks Ed!

Rocky Mountain 12Ga brass

Ed, I'm pretty sure you know about these guys, but kust in case...

About RMC:

Dave casey is very helpful by email or telephone: Leave a message and he will get back to you.

However he has not updated the price list on his website since Feb. 2004. Brass shot shell cases:

http://www.rockymountaincartridge.com/page7.html

Latest prices quoted to me by email:
(prices for box of 10 hulls, brass 12 gauge)
2-5/8" @ $67.00
2-7/8" @ $70.00
3-1/2" @ $80.00

The RMC Shot Shell Reloading Kits are neat little hand tools for use with a mallet, and start at $36.00 for .410 bore and are $75.00 for the 12Ga kit:

http://www.rockymountaincartridge.com/page10.html

I'll post here if any of my order ever arrives.

Some pics from the website: www.rockymountaincartridge.com

Proprietor:



A custom headstamp on brass from RMC. +10 gauge bore rifle?:

12 Ga Turned brass cases are easy to make and good to 37KPSI. Thats based on the .600Ok cases John Mcmorrow and I made. You can have as many as you want but my cost will be about the same as what you have now. I made a few dozen threaded cases today that can be fireformed easily by the purchaser. I'll provide them fireformed and non-fireformed. That will save alot of money. I can also make cases in 2-7/8, 3"" 3.5 and 3.85 inch from .50BMG brass. Those cases are good to well over 65KPSI. However, to get really good velocities with 1000gr bullets and I'm talking 3000fps plus you will need the FL 12 GaFH.-Rob

Rob, I never would have guessed about the wide range of pressures with the various 12Ga hulls.

What is the FL designation? A straight-bore, or some kind of CUP designation on a 12Ga gun?

Henry,
Surely the "FL" simply refers to "Full Length" as in 3.85" 12GaFH brass.

Rob,
I have a Dave Kiff reamer for 3.5" 12 Gauge, came right off the shelf and took only 3 days to deliver to me.

I have asked Dave Kiff to make a 12GaFH reamer like so:

Standard 12-gauge rim, head, and neck diameter, 3.85" case length, 3-degree forcing cone built integral to reamer instead of usual 5-degree 12-gauge leade, and a .719" pilot.
Sound O.K.?

Now on to custom barrels: Badger?

Rip- Should work fine. I would have loaned you mine though. As I suggested, ream to 3.85 and just use the shorter cases or slower powders. H50bmg is very slow and problem free just keep moving to faster powders for more velocity. -Rob

Rob,
I have a hunch that the 12GaFH reamer will improve the patterns of even the lightest smoothbore gun, if there is enough steel in the barrel to accommodate the reamer.

It would not be nice to tie up your reamer. Mine will be busy converting the Ultra Slug and the Slug Warrior and a 3.5" American Arms SXS double that has screw-in chokes and rifle sights already mounted ... Rifled-choke 12 Gauge Paradox From Hell/12GaPFH?

Looking for a custom action and a long, heavy barrel will be next.

Ed and Rob,
What is the best source for a barrel?

The guys wanting the cases from BMG brass
number about 10 right now , probably average
of 25 cases each. I will post all over to have
them contact Rob by email this fall.And we will
try to get more.

Encore. Friend's got one coming for some testing
with 3", 3.5" plastic and 3", 3.5", etc brass.
Have reamer soon, for 3.5". Many guys want tests for
3.5" plastic and brass, regulsr primers, with the three
powders regular primers ignite ok. 4227,4759, VV110,
T/C pressure specs in small cases, 223,270, etc, gun holds
and ejects 65k loads. In 45-70, 45k loads. In 12ga
plastic about 16-20k and still ejects.About like NEF.
In fact NEF extractor slightly wider.From my experience,
the Encore 12 should eject, with long chamber, using bmg
based case, about 30k psi. That will get 750 gr over
2400, 600 gr over 2600.It will be weighted or the heavier
loads will put he hurt on you...Ed

Badger advertises 1:26" twist touted for 12ga sabot loads.

Gotta do some thinking about what twist I need for a custom 12GaFH barrel on ...

Ed and Rob:
What is your recommendation for .729" groove/.719" bore custom barrel?

1.5" shank diameter?
1:35" Twist?
30" barrel length?
6" long parallel Knoxform chamber/shank length?
1.000" min/1.100" max muzzle diameter?

I don't need to get a hernia from carrying one that is too heavy. This will be a sporter.

quote:

The guys wanting the cases from BMG brass
number about 10 right now , probably average
of 25 cases each.

If we get ten (or 12) shooting highly dart stabilized projectiles out of a variety of platforms we should have some statistically significant data to quantify my "dart stability index".

And don't forget, we can buy new 45 cal. barrel blanks for only $71, if we need to drop back to .45 for more exhaustive testing.

The $71 barrels I mentioned above are .45 Colt - 1/32 Twist - .442 Bore/.452 Groove

Twist info- Rob's and my Pacnors 1 to 20.
Good for 2000 gr slugs. Up to a 1100gr
slug a 1 to 24-28 will do. Nef is 1 to 35
and works great with 600, 750, 870 gr.
My Savage is 30"...With 1.1" min at muzzle gets weight to tame recoil..A good parallel
breech section of a barrel is 8 "....Ed

My posts get pretty much ignored on this Thread.

Should I just “take the hint†and get lost?

Sorry been busy-- I also will put out the
word that Rob has these, and also test results
as soon as they are done.I've posted pics and
info 50 forums so guys can mull the dart slugs
over. A few have asked about them.Ed

Pac-Nor
Thanks, Ed.

I know this looks like a sloppy fit for Ed's sample 12GaFH brass, but it is the minimum chamber for a 12 gauge shotgun. The throat is modified like a 3-degree custom forcing cone.
Should improve patterns for skeet with smoothbore 12GaFH, and act like freebore pressure reducer in the rifled barrel for slugs. Any comments?

In my NEF the chamber is .813" base and .800"
mouth. Most chambers I've measured are about
this size, brass and plastic works ok in it.
Our long case a little harder to resize
when fired in NEF compared to Savage......
My chamber in the SAvage where I did chamber from scratch,
is extra tight as the mouth and
top part long case is thinner than plastic. My chamber base is .805" and mouth is .790"
and setup for a 3.85" brass case.It still fires
properly sized 3" plastic. The reason I did this is to cut down the expansion on firing,
thus overworking the brass on sizing. If sizing
is hard rims get beat up pulling back out of dies..This hard resizing
is only a factor when loads get to 40k in Savage at the bottom of case
and in the NEF about 25-30k on the top half of case.Ed

Am I wrong or is the H&R Ultra Slug just a deeper chamber away from being a decent 12GFH ? I know it needs a faster twist for the super heavyweights but it's not too bad as is with 1000-1200 grainers is it?

There are so many 12GFH posts that it's hard to find out where and how to begin working on one!

What has to be done to the Savage 210 to make it a REAL 12GFH? Who will build me one if I wanted to go that route with the Savage? I'm trying to get info on through the AR SEARCH and ADVANCED SEARCH but it's a slow go, so far at least.

The Nef Ultra Slug needs chamber deepened.And
a better stock and pad... NEF is about 350 dollars
with a good stock and pad added.

Savage needs heavy barrel added, port opened,
and bolt stop changed.. With long case a single shot.
Savages have went up to 500, plus a 300 dollar barrel,
work etc, you might like Encore at 700 bucks.
Encore needs chamber deepened;..Ed

quote:

Originally posted by hubel458:
The Nef Ultra Slug needs chamber deepened.And
a better stock and pad... NEF is about 350 dollars
with a good stock and pad added.

Savage needs heavy barrel added, port opened,
and bolt stop changed.. With long case a single shot.
Savages have went up to 500, plus a 300 dollar barrel,
work etc, you might like Encore at 700 bucks.
Encore needs chamber deepened;..Ed

Thank you very much Mr. Hubel!

Who should I talk to about doing the conversion on the Savage 210? I know that yourself, Rob and others are working on your own projects but do any of you guys build them for the other big bore nuts who have yet to acquire the necessary skills needed to do the job right? I can probably handle the H&R Ultra work myself but I would seek a pro to handle the Savage 210 for sure?

It's not like I'm in a rush to start a project like this because I've got other projects lined up ahead of it for sure. I'm definately interested in building a 12gfh though and want to get my ducks in a row.

I appreciate the help and any info/advice you can give me.

So, this Dave Kiff PT&G reamer for the 12GaFH is intermediate between Ed's tight chamber and the usually sloppy factory 12Ga 3" chamber. Should work.

Maybe it will also clean up my NEF 3" chamber without leaving a ring at the 3" point as it goes on out to 3.85" and is .798" at the case mouth, whereas the NEF is about 0.800" at the 3"-length case mouth.

A tighter 12GaFH reamer could be used, but only to pop the cherry of a virgin barrel.
But this PT&G reamer might be good for that too, will see.

The max 50BMG base (.804")is a few thou bigger than the "spec" for 12GaFH base (.801" on ammoguide.com).

What is really needed now is some 12GaFH FL dies for reloading, 3-die set, made for the fireformed brass from a 12GaFH using Nohbohzo, LLC brass, to let the brass run on the max spec size for 50BMG base.

The price of the PT&G 12GaFH reamer complete with .719" removable pilot is only $169, and might be delivered in 3 weeks, best I can tell right now. Great price, even with the removable pilot I asked for.

Replacing that pilot with a .725" pilot, or whatever is needed for smoothbores, could surely liven up a turkey-shooter or goose gun.

3-ounce loads of shot from your 12 gauge anyone?

No word yet on the 3.3 ounce lead slug mould in progress at Brooks Tru-Bore.

The NEF Ultra Slug in laminate wood stock weighs 10.25 pounds, regardless of what the advertising claims.

The Savage Slug Warrior in plastic stock weighs 7.5 pounds, just like the advertizing claims.
Ouch.

I can ream encore barrels and probably NEF barrels for folks but can't accept actions.As for dies , I might be pursuaded to make a few sets. I use a simple hand die for sizing but the seating die requires a .50 bmg press. I use
A .50bmg shellholder with my screw on .50bmg adapter for all reloading. I need to consider a Lee loader on steroids approach though as the seated in a real bear to make.-Rob

Excuse my confusion.

12Ga brass max base diameter just above the rim: .809"

50BMG brass max spec base diameter just above extractor groove: 0.804"

Ammoguide.com 12GaFH base diameter, per Ed Hubel submission: 0.801"

If you actually measure 50BMG and 12Ga brass, they are all about 0.800" base diameter, or less.

It would seem to me that they are all a pretty sloppy fit in the standard 12Ga chamber.

0.002" bigger than max brass diameter seems to be the plan on most reamers, even the standard 12Ga chamber reamer.

Someday a 0.806" base diameter reamer for custom 12GaFH shotguns might be in order.

It all depends on what brass becomes available.

Rob,
I am interested in any 12GaFH paraphernalia you can come up with: brass, dies, bullets?

If I cannot find an action like your Borchardt, I am thinking of altering a 50BMG bolt action to handle skeet loads.

Do you have a muzzle brake on the Borchardt?
I guess you have to remove the muzzle brake when using factory 12Ga loads like 3" sabot-slugsfor deer, or No.8 shot with those plastic wads/shot cups for Sporting Clays.

All bmg brass I have here is .797" to
.800" base.. All of my 12ga Fh cases are
.801". And remember we are measuring the
flat just ahead of rim on the screwed on
rimpiece. Rim pieces were made by CNC so
they are one size only.Ed

Almost all of my .50BMG cases are as ED says .797-.800 at the base. Thats unfired brand new winchester stuff. I made my bases .800 also. Be carefull of once fired machine gun brass!
I dont have a muzzel brake on my Borchardt because I wanted it to always be able to fire a 2 3/4 regular shotgun shell so as to be unquestionably legal in CA. -Rob

Thanks for the help fellas!

Sometime down the road I'd like to build a 12gfh on the Savage 210 with the works but right now my budget won't allow me to do it. I'll have my .500 A2 around Christmas time and after that I will be saving up for a .416 Ruger and .600 OK to kinda round out my big bore collection before I start working up to ULTRA BIG BORE TRAIN WRECKERS like the 12gfh.

I might be able to squeeze in an Ultra Slugger with a laminated stock though and ream it out for the longer shells. Hey, it would be a pretty good start, lotsa fun, and pretty cheap too. We'll see how it goes.

This is a bit off the topic but I was wondering if the Savage 210 action would be good for the .505 Gibbs, .600 OK, .577 T-Rex, .700 AHR and other monster cartridges? I'm using the CZ 550 .416 Rigby action for my .500 A2 and was planning on using it for the .600 OK too but I was curious as to whether the Savage 210 would work well. It seems like a good action for the big .700's and the 12gfh. Hmmmmmmm?

The Savage probably could be made to work, but remember WE KNOW the CZ550 works and we have debugged extractor and ejector issues, feeding, ramp angles SS mag Boxes etc. On the CZ. Your on your own with the Savage.-Rob

I put my 700HE 3.25" in Savage, but for the smaller guys,
600 Ok, Trex and Gibbs use a CZ or similiar.
The Savage is good for 700NE, 600NE etc, Ed