The Nyati sucked as a full length cartridge! Reason why I developed the .600OK! Does sound like you have enough shoulder though!- Good luck! Do we really need a short Nyati?Rob

quote:

Do we really need a short Nyati?

LOL THAT IS THE $3,000 QUESTION

I puke on the Nyati in any length. Never has a worse cartrige been designed.-Rob

Really good news- Pac-Nor is shipping my 12 Ga rifled barrels on friday. The 12 GaFH Double rifle project finally starts moving again after a two month delay! The monoblock is ready to go and all I have to do is profile the barrels, thread and chamber them! I cant wait!-Rob

Baddest shotgun in the world comming up!

Double barrel QUADRACONES! It just doesnt get better than that!-Rob

Holy Moly...the creative juices are really flowing on this thread right now...or is it Hallucinations......doesn't really matter does it...it's definitely one way to get there..."with a little help from my friends".

Rob...you've got mail...

Rip...what size are the holes in that brake?...I'm guessing 3/8"??? Definitely gives the Handi a new look...

Thanks

FOOBAR,
Yep. .375" side-vent holes, 48 of them.
Only one .750" hole at the muzzle. See page 36 of this thread for "before" picture, when the muzzle hole was .530" diameter.

Rob,
I have a Zabala 10-gauge double from circa 1986.
I have two chromoly barrels from Ed Hubel of 1:22" twist that could be turned down to matching contours and up to 30" long ...
And I vow to endeavor to persevere at farting around here.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

And I vow to endeavor to persevere at farting around here.

Sure hope that isn't part of your bedside manners!

.366torque,
The cyberspace of AR.com has nothing to do with "bedside."
Besides, flatulance under the white coat is not a good idea anytime!

Now, back to your research on that biography of Gil Van Horn with catalog of all his wildcat cartridge specs, and photos (in color) of all his custom rifle builds.

Wait, wait, don't tell, me ... Gil did the 12GaFH in 1967?

Thanks again...Yeah, I saw the first picture...quite a difference. I have a piece of 4130 in the lathe right now getting all turned, bored and all spiffied up ready to thread... if I can get the wobblie theading problems sorted out...the hair on my bald head is starting to stand straight up, I'm getting a bowed neck and my eyes are turning to slits with some of the little things that Murphy keeps throwing at me...not to mention the continued bad weather freezing my fingers and ba*** while I stand there watching the chips fly. I need a vacation to sunny Vegas I think...

Enjoy your projects.

Whats the ball park cost on the reamers, and who makes them ?

Thanks

So when do the strong 12GFH "shotguns" go into full production

Dave Kiff at Pacific Tool and Gauge
Offers reamers for about $180.
His standard 12Ga3.5" fits the RMC brass
as does the 12Ga3.85" I had him make.
Rob's reamer will not allow RMC brass to chamber, though it seems to accept plastic hulls.
Specifics on Rob's reamer are classified,
until he desides to release it to the gun trade.

NEF-ers:
Just facing facing off the top of the hammer, where it strikes and stops on the receiver,
may allow the recessed portion of the hammer (below the "proud" spot)
to hit the transfer bar a harder blow and protrude the firing pin a bit more.
Did Ed Hubel suggested this earlier?
How long ago was that?
Headed for page 50 and 2000 replies.

Maybe Ed could opine on reamer specs?

I am about to resign myself to RMC brass only in the NEF-ers.

I need a "strong shotgun action" to best utilize the 3.85" Nohbozo brass,
with a tighter reamer in a virgin barrel,
like Rob's Borchardt.

Rob's reamer in the NEF-er just adds a 0.85" length of tighter neck to the sloppy 3" shotgun chamber.

Rob's reamer size and my Savage chamber size,
that I made with my special lathe tools, are very
minimum for thinner BMG based brass and just allows
a 2.75" plastic case to chamber.Cuts down the
expansion of bmg based cases on firing.
RIP, Savage is easy way to start with virgin barrel and go with
new, tight, chamber. My chamber base is .807-808" and
mouth is .775-777". ; where factory 12ga is .811"
base and .800-802"" mouth. All I fire mostly now in NEF is
3.5" plastic and RMC brass, both able to get real good power,
for simple break action guns. My Savage now is in
a laminated, thumbhole Boyd stock as shown in pic.
Much nicer taming recoil than old regular stock,
along with internal brake porting on barrel.The
Savage makes a beautiful gun with heavy barrel.

On NEF only take a little off from hammer, for if you
take too much, the transfer bar will hit reciever and
peen it so that firing pin won't retract. You remove metal
from reciever evenly top to bottom of surface so that transfer
bar stops on the firing pin, not reciever, as the top of
hammer hits reciever, at same time. Ed

quote:

Dave Kiff at Pacific Tool and Gauge
Offers reamers for about $180.
His standard 12Ga3.5" fits the RMC brass
as does the 12Ga3.85" I had him make.
Rob's reamer will not allow RMC brass to chamber, though it seems to accept plastic hulls.

So I take it that the reamer for RMC casings has no issue with standard 12G plastic hulls ?
Thanks

Yes the regular spec 3.5" 12ga reamer works
perfect with 3.5" plastic and 3.5" RMC brass.
RMC makes brass same thick sidewalls as factory heavy
duty plastic, like REM cases. You ask for regular
3.5" reamer.Ed

Thx Ed.
I forgot to ask before, how far does this reamer allow a projectile to stick out of the casing in the chamber ?

RIP:
Also would you happen to have the Stock Item N° that Pacific Tool and Gauge gave your particular reamer, or do I just quote your name ?

Since I dont have any specs to give them, I just want to make sure I order the right one is all.

Side note. Whats the difference between these? :

A Removable Pilot Finish Reamer
A Solid Pilot Finish Reamer
and
A Pull-Through Finish Reamer.

Are any or all of the above needed ?

Gib- The regular shotgun reamer has a long enough
forcing cone length, that bullets can stick out
like rifle cartridges are loaded, about an inch.
As for solid pilot or removable pilot it is just what
they have to sell, they may have both. Removable is
good, in case guns have slightly different bores.
Some rifled barrels are .730", some .729" ,
some down to .727". My Pacnor barrel is .729" groove
diameter and .719" land diameter so it takes a .719"
pilot bushing. Nobody makes 12ga reamers in
pull through that I know of.Ed

quote:

Originally posted by Gibs:
Thx Ed.
I forgot to ask before, how far does this reamer allow a projectile to stick out of the casing in the chamber ?

RIP:
Also would you happen to have the Stock Item N° that Pacific Tool and Gauge gave your particular reamer, or do I just quote your name ?

Since I dont have any specs to give them, I just want to make sure I order the right one is all.

Side note. Whats the difference between these? :

A Removable Pilot Finish Reamer
A Solid Pilot Finish Reamer
and
A Pull-Through Finish Reamer.

Are any or all of the above needed ?

Gibs,
Ditto Ed.
The 3.85" reamer is shown on Dave Kiff's print #: 15429
www.pacifictoolandgauge.com

The diameters at the base and neck on the 3.5" reamer are the same as on the 3.85" reamer.
The Dave Kiff reamer is just stretched from 3.5" to 3.85" in chamber length.

The "throat/forcing cone" is the same on both.
They are removable pilot reamers.
You see that the 3.5" reamer will indeed allow a bullet/slug to be seated out quite far before it narrows down to groove diameter.
About 3/4". Refer to reamer drawing.
The 3.5" standard reamer could be used by me with Darwin slugs in RMC brass.
The 3.85" reamer gives an effective parallel-sided freebore of .35" run added onto the 3.5" reamer. No big deal either way.

The 3.85" PT&G reamer (print# 15429) does allow beginning to form Nohbozo 12GaFH brass,
for later resizing to fit a custom virgin barrel done with a tighter reamer, for 50BMG brass.

I may have to start that shopmule on a Savage 210 using one of Ed's barrels.
That will do single-shot firing of Nohbozo 3.85" cases in a chamber with a tighter reamer.

The standard pilot that comes with it for smoothbore is .725" diameter.
The pilot specified for work in the NEF rifled barrel is .719".

Nominal groove diameter is .729" and bore/land diameter .719", which requires a .719" pilot.
That works in the NEF-er barrel and should work in most .729"/.719" rifled barrels.

You want to specify a .719" pilot, and order a .725" pilot extra in case you want to improve the patterning of some other 3.5" 12Ga smoothbore shotgun that has heavy enough barrel for the 3.85" reamer.

Ok!

Sits here scratching his head!

All I want is a chamber like a true rifle chamber, no forcing cone's ( very bad for accuracy). So do I just tell them, No forcing cone on reamer ?
Thanks

Gibs...Go to the PT&G website and you can download a case design form to fill out to whatever dimensions YOU want...You can also email, call, fax, or snail mail a drawing with the numbers...

Dave will grind the reamer to his OEM specs if he has them or something close on hand or YOUR specs, for the same price as far as I've know...I've used Dave's reamers many times and have emailed and phoned him several times when working out whatever project I happened to be playing with at the time. He's good people.

PT&G's site... http://www.pacifictoolandgauge.com/

lol this thread has more posts and views than some whole boards here... 50 pages has to be for some good reason and lots of good hard ingenious work.

Does FOOBAR get a prize for starting the 50th page?

Good advice to Gibs from FOOBAR.
You need to have a brass case specified and a good idea on the range of "bullets" to fit the throat,
if you want to get fancy tight about it.

The shotgun forcing cone is no worse than the standard throat on the .458 Lott and .458 WinMag.
They are the same for those two .458's by CIP spec.
Just a long funnel leade that has about 1.1" run from case mouth until it narrows down to bore diameter.

In comparison, the standard PT&G forcing cone/throat is only about 3/4" run from casemouth diameter down to bore diameter.

Sounds like you would be best off sticking to RMC brass with the standard specs up to the neck,
for the 12Ga-3.5",
then design your own throat.

Standard 12Ga-3.5" with the forcing cone shown ought to be more accurate with slugs/bullets than a standard .458WinMag or Lott.

Maybe the next NEF-er I shall chamber myself by hand, and will insert the 3.5" PT&G reamer only to whatever depth will allow a Nohbozo dummy to enter the chamber all the way?

Then ream a little more until the Nohbozo just drops in,
with at least .004" neck expansion to release the slug on firing.

If the 3.5" reamer is not sufficient, then switch to the 3.85" reamer and advance it gradually.

The forcing cone will become the neck of the Nohbozo NEF-er chamber.
That will cut out some freebore effect.

That might be very close to just using the 12Ga-3.5" standard reamer and standard forcing cone.

I will start there and see if a Nohbozo 3.85" dummy can be loaded into that standard shotgun chamber with standard forcing cone.

That has got to be very close to using Rob's reamer in the 3" NEF-er chamber.

Using a 3.5" reamer will produce a slightly tighter chamber than advancing the 3.85" reamer to 3.5" depth.

Chambering to full 3.5" depth with the standard 3.5" 12ga reamer will allow use of RMC 3.5" brass and any plastic hull up to 3.5".

Will it allow insertion of a Nohbozo 3.85" cartridge?
Yes it will if the 3.5" reamer has the same forcing cone on it as Dave Kiff put on the 3.85" reamer.
There is actually room to spare.
The Nohbozo 3.85" brass really deserves a virgin barrel and a custom reamer.

I'll post my reamer specs tuesday. My reamer has a non-removable pilot and no forcing cone. Just a std Rifle cartridge reamer. It was designed to just take std 12Ga 2 3/4 cases so it would be Kalifornia legal as a shotgun. I kept the dimensions as tight as possible to minimize case expansion. My NEF will fire std 12Ga Cases 23/4, 3 and 3.5 including sabots but wont chamber a RMC case. My Nohbozo cases really move when fired in the NEF at full power. i.e 1750fps. It really takes some effort to resize them FL. In the Borchardt chamber they hardly move at twice the pressure. Interestingly, I tried fireforming .50BMG cases directly in the Borchardt and 35 grs of bulleseye with Cream or wheat filler to the case mouth gave 100% opened and fully formed cases. I get inconsistent results in the NEF probably because the case is getting blown out in too many directions all at once.-Rob

Rob,
That makes sense.

The forcing cone has same purpose as the
freebore section on rifle chambers. It is just
a little different shape. You got to have one
style or the other to shoot slugs protruding
from the case, to keep peak pressures down
to lower shotgun levels. In Rob's Borchardt
it isn't a great factor to have forcing cone
or an ectra long rifle type freebore.
If you want exact freebored rifle reamer,
ask them and they can make them.
But if you look at schematic with dimemsions,
RIP posted the slug will be into the rifling
before it clears the case, so there isn't any
pressure lost, even in 3.5" plastic as well as
RMC brass. Brett in MN has a full length freebore
on his 835 Mossy, it is in essence a 12ga chamber
in a 10ga barrel, and he gets ounce slugs over
2300 in plastic cases.And can hit a pail 5 for 5
at 75 yds.Ed

Here is another schematic of the standard 12Ga3.5" max cartridge
and
12Ga3.5" min chamber
which uses a shorter forcing cone than the Dave Kiff reamer.
(This one is from an old edition of the Lyman Shotshell Reloading Handbook, 4th ed.)
This shorter forcing cone on the 3.5" reamer will not allow a Nohbozo 3.85" case to be chambered:



The common 12ga forcing cone angle is 5 degrees.

I think Dave Kiff might use this 3-degree angle on request for better patterns with shot,
a custom forcing cone built into the reamer, just my first stab at a 12gaFH reamer:



The end-neck dimensions shown here (Nohbozo and RMC actual brass)
are after the necks were crimped firmly on 1400-grain 30:1 lead Darwin slugs,
using the 5C collett and the 20-gauge MEC Supersizer, used on the neck instead of the base, of course.
The ammoguide.com "proper dimensions" are the maximum 12GaFH cartridge dimensions submitted by Ed, with credit to Rob:

A lot of the old NE cartridges had "forcing cones" for throats, and as Ed says, they serve a purpose.
These are just long leades that taper down to full bearing at the narrow end of the cone segment. No parallel-sided freebore at all.

I may have mentioned this before, but my reamer leaves a Ghost ring where the end of the old NEF 3" chamber ends. You can see it if you look into the chamber with a borescope but cant feel it with a wire. Fired cases show the ring very very faintly but I have not been able to polish it completely out. Although I have not tried real hard as its just cosmetic. Doesnt help or hurt anything. I think the bottom line is if you want to shoot RMC brass youll need reamer dimensions different than mine. My brass will still fire in such a chamber, but will move quite a bit and may need a separate set of reloading dies. If you want to shoot std Shotgun shells and Nohbozo brass than a tigher chamber and not use RMC brass then my chamber dimensions will be fine. -Rob

Ok, the reason I mention that I dont want a big (long) Forcing Cone, is that when I look down my 210F's stock barrel, it has this humungus rough as guts forcing cone thats almost ½ the length of the barrel. Not good. This is what affects a SG's accuracy, more to the point, lack off, over extended ranges. I then look down my rifle barrels, big difference. Since I'm trying to basicaly make a .729 RIFLE that just happens to be a 12G Shotgun, a chamber reamer would need to be more rifle like than SG like. That make any sence ?

So given the above, the first reamer by Pacific Tools, would that fit in with what I have in mind.
I'm sorry for all the questions guys, but I'm only going to get one shot at this. I really cant afford to frak it up and never having done anything like this, well you get the idea.

Below is a rough picture of what I see in my Rifles and my 210F. Just remember that the forcing cone, is far longer than what I have shown and is so bloody rough it peels wads apart.

I'm wondering if it would be better to smooth up the forcing cone then measuring it, then emailing Dave to see what he can come up will...having a long straight section in front of the chamber in this application probably won't cause too much problem in the accuracy department as long as there is a gentle transition into the rifling...it's the last couple of inches of the barrel that has the most effect on accuracy, that's why it is so important to have a uniform crown.

I had one of the original Remington 700 in 17 Rem that had a very rough bore to begin with and after about 2000 rounds the rifling was just about non-existant for the first 12-14" past the chamber...only the last 5-6" of bore was doing the accuracy work. When I finally pulled the barrel I could still put 5 rounds into a nickel at 175 yds, but could only shoot 8-10 rounds before that rough section of the barrel was loaded with copper and the groups turned into patterns. It took a overnight soak with Wipe Out to get the copper out and 3-5 rounds to get the fouling built up good enough to get a few long 250-300 yd hits.

I've used brake cylinder hones, automotive ball hones, emery rolled on brass rods in drill motors, valve grinding compound on cotton bandages on rubber plugs, lead laps, etc., to solve a lot of roughness problems in many hydraulic castings, cleaning out engine coolant and oil passages, in rusted shotgun bores, and to polish chambers.

Not being able to actually scope the barrel limits any actions I can give.

Luck on your project.

The Forcing cone on my Savage original rifled bbl
is about 3/4 inch long, and smooth shot barrels are
a little longer.I have one sectioned. The smoothbarrel
forcing in 1887 WIN barrel is 1.1". So forcing
cones look longer than they really are.
But reamer guys use programmed setups to grind
reamers so they can make rifle style freebore
like they can build regular ones.Ed

A rough forcing cone is a bad forcing cone no matter how abrupt or gradual.
The forcing cone job is not finished until it is polished smooth!
Surely Ed has pegged Gibs' optical illusion.
No forcing cone runs half the length of the barrel ... unless shootaway has been cleaning that shotgun!

Let us see what kind of rifle-style throat is is on Rob's reamer for 12gaFH.

If I designed the throat for use of RMC 3.5" brass with my 1400-grain Darwin slugs of .730" diameter,
as well as any other pointy-long jacketed projectile of .729" diameter:

freebore (parallel-sided)
diameter 0.7320"
length 0.7000"
plus
leade angle of 1.5 degrees

The reamer would be standard 12Ga3.5" up to the neck diameter of .798"
then an abrupt 45-degree step down to freebore diameter of .7320",
which would run for .7000" length (parallel-sided)
before tapering off into the rifling with that gentle 1.5-degree leade.

However, I like the Dave Kiff 3-degree forcing cone, polished smooth, just fine, for any application.

quote:

unless shootaway has been cleaning that shotgun!

If I get a chance to do a Cerrosafe mold of the NEF Chamber and compare the dimensions to my reamer, then I think the mystery of the ring will be solved. My best guess is in the 3" NEF chamber, my reamer is removing all of the forcing cone and cutting a new rifle style throat. The ring is the remains of the old 3" chamber mouth. In any event, Accuracy with brass Darwins and 3" federal Sabots has been excellent so far, and in fact way better than I expected.
I of course started with a 12Ga blank on my Borchardt so the chamber is not a CHIMERA like on the NEF and is a true 12 Ga rifle chamber that also is able to shoot 3" std shotgun shells.
Since my reamer wont work with RMC brass it sounds like Gibs needs one with some slightly different dimensions. I would design that reamer to produce a tight chamber TO REDUCE THE EXPANSION of those RMC cases as much as possible and to have a rifle style throat rather than a forcing cone. I'd also make it long enough to take 3.85 cases just in case some unscrupulous enemy of the state in OZ has squirreled away some .50BMG cases. You just never know what some wise ass could do with them do you? -Rob

Rob,
Could it be you have a 15-thou-and-5-degree-per-side "chimera shoulder" at the 3" point in your NEF-er chamber?
Maybe you need to get pressures higher to fully form the brass to the "chimera shoulder."
Fully formed NohBozo Brass may be tapered on both ends.

I have plenty of work yet to do with the RMC brass and 1400-grain lead Darwins.

I took RMC case on my case lathe/spinner and
thinned mouth and top 1/3 of case and sized it
and it fits in minimum Savage chamber.
RMC will do that also if anyone wants to use
Rob's designed reamers for our bmg based case,
and still chamber RMC 3.5" brass. He can go down to
like .018-020" per side thickness like I did, instead
of the thicker .032" ...That's my recomendation
on a new barrel blank project in Savage. Easiest
to use Rob's reamer size and then you can use both cases
with minimum expansion on firing. Brass lasts longer
and sizes much easier. Just specify case for .729"
slug and .770" mouth od, regular base.And it slides right in
minimum chamber.Because if you use regular 12ga spec
on long case reamer, then when you fire the bmg based
case, it expands more than needed..Ed

Ed- I think thats a great suggestion. I didnt know RMC would do that. Even when you use my reamer in a NEF, full power cases expand enough that resizing takes a vise or Hyrdaulic H frame press. I cant imagine how tough it would be in a chamber designed for a RMC case with 0.032 case walls. Using RMC brass cases in low power loads may be a advantage to some. Personally, I like the strong .50BMG brass and in particular those straight wall cases. for an added margin of safety.
As an aside, I'm making great progress on my .50BMG primer seating tool. The main parts are now set up for CNC and I have 5 tools nearly completed. Three are sold already so if someone wants one they need to let me know ASAP.-Rob