quote:

Originally posted by KPete:
Dawn Roar:

It strikes me as curious that, while All Gone has posted his version of events, none of what you are alleging has been mentioned by either Jimba Safaris or Adam Clements Safari Trackers. Indeed, instead of the other principals to this story presenting these shocking allegations personally, you appear on the scene as one or the other's 'proxy', we have to presume.

This is disturbing in that by having a proxy attacking All Gone's veracity, your masters - whomever they may be - keep their hands clean here on AR and, of course, should any of this reach the courts. Personally, I don't believe that Adam would have a hand in what you're doing, so my guess is that you are shilling for Jimba Safaris and Tim Lamprecht.

If that is the case, what does it say about them that they are unwilling to make these extraordinary charges - one of them criminal no less - themselves? Is this their attempt at intimidation? If someone goes after them, they'll sully the accuser's reputation with sordid allegations from anonymous third parties like you? Despicable.

Without providing sources for your allegations, that is a logical way to interpret your most recent post.

Did it ever occur to you that because of people exactly like you others could care less about coming to your cross burnings held here on AR? You are wrong and still fight to the end for some guy who has failed to tell you about wounding an animal (and yes the PH was complicit) and the complicating factors that created for Adam. The fact that you continue to defend a liar tells me all I need to know.

Saeed, I agree both good and bad should be published here but don't you think a few safe guards are necessary so that reputations are not smeared wrongly? Save the arguments that go against the owner and PH as I have made it clear that regardless of any excuse offered by either side this animal should not have been killed. My comments to date are about Adam being wrongfully smeared here and saying how bad the others are is avoiding what is owed by some here to Adam...an apology.

Dawnroar,

Answer this simple question for me. Is Adam an agent for the hunter that has first hand knowledge of the outfitters he books for and a person qualified to advise people on where to have a proper hunt? Or...is he a salesman peddling wares of various quality and buyer beware?

Really...I am confused right now...and trying figure out which?

The answer will tell me how I should feel about this situation and how to view him as an agent in the future.

This thread reminds me of a cartoon that I have posted in my office. A defendant and his lawyer are standing in front of a judge and the judge says, "Since you have already been convicted by the media, I imagine that we can wrap this up pretty quickly." I am sure glad the jury system does not work the same way as the internet.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Dawnroar,

Answer this simple question for me. Is Adam an agent for the hunter that has first hand knowledge of the outfitters he books for and a person qualified to advise people on where to have a proper hunt? Or...is he a salesman peddling wares of various quality and buyer beware?

Really...I am confused right now...and trying figure out which?

The answer will tell me how I should feel about this situation and how to view him as an agent in the future.

What the hell does that have to do with anything other than you love Aaron and have different opinions about Adam because of something unrelated to the issues raised in this thread? But let me try and answer.

This guy put a budget on Adam and got a hunt for Ele, buff and leopard for 30k. How many 30k hunts like that you been on or have found available? Adam communicated specifically that Wayne was to do the hunt and no other. He specifically made it clear he did not want the very PH who ended up with the hunt. Wayne breached the agreement and sent an email to the hunter before he set foot in Africa leaving Adam no opportunity to correct the situation.

I don't know Wayne but I have not seen a single person in this thread say anything but good things about him and that is who Adam thought was doing the hunt. Do you know something to add that is in any way negative? Do any of Aaron's outfits he uses have PH's that he specifies shouldn't be used? Do you think Aaron could have done something more without knowing the PH swap took place? While you are at it see if Aaron has any recommendations on 30k hunts like this that fits the clients budget. Will it be with the best of the best?

Come on guys you may have legitimate complaints about Adam for something else and like this case I am sure there are two sides but what the hell is wrong when a guy gives you half truths and whips up a frenzy when in fact he is just as guilty of wrongdoing as anyone. Where is your sense of what is right?

I am quickly beginning to see why some people simply chose to ignore this place. I am dumbfounded that we are still debating Adam when the guy who started this mess lied to you all and left out crucial facts that show he is dirty. Makes me wonder about the motives of those who continue to ignore this so called hunter wounded a buff, was complicit with the PH is bribing the game guard, hid it from wayne and Adam, and gladly took a refund for same and is now upset because Adam is having a hard time making a deal on another mistake killing.

So, All Gone, tell us about the buffalo....Your gamescout in Sijarira was Ollie I believe?

Dawn Roar,
Really??
"Others could care less" 10k hits and climbing.
A wounded buff? IF it went down exactly as you say, evidently it was worked out by everyone involved.
Reputations? yours is what you make it.
Apology? ACS, Jimbah, ph. Sorry you let it get this far when $5k would have settled it.

Scott

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
This thread reminds me of a cartoon that I have posted in my office. A defendant and his lawyer are standing in front of a judge and the judge says, "Since you have already been convicted by the media, I imagine that we can wrap this up pretty quickly." I am sure glad the jury system does not work the same way as the internet.

It's interesting how some of these stories start, everyone puts there thoughts in, a few more facts come in and everyone gets entrenched in a position often based on a previous opinion of a particular party involved....

Makes for an interesting read and even years later never really know what really happened. Basically nothing good comes out of it for anyone involvced. Along those lines I'll bet that no matter whatever Adam offers in the way of restitution there will be many who say it isn't enough.

Yes the buffalo incident happened.

And this is how it happened

We were looking at a bull through the thick bush, we were close enough for a shot but it was to thick. The bull layed down. I could see a small part of the bull through a hole in the bush. i told Tim i had i had no idea what i was looking at. Tim was looking over my right shoulder as i am right handed and told me that what i could see was all front shoulder and vitals. I turned my scope all the up and looked again and still had no idea of what part of the buff i was looking at. Thats when Tim told me to shoot it. I said, i don't know tim i just can't tell are you sure. He hissed, yes i'm sure shoot the facking bull. Shoot the facking bull now Richard.

I put it in the middle of the black spot that was visable as instructed and took the shot. I was only able to get one shot.

There was very little blood and the bull did not slow down or veer off.

Thats when we came across the ele. i cerntainly did not ask to shoot the ele. That was the last thing on my mind at the time. The ele ordeal happened just the way i stated ealier.

We tracked the buff 1 1/2 to 2 hours more when we caught up to them, by then the bull was not bleeding anymore and we could not find him in the herd before they blew out again.

Thats when Tim explained to me how things work. He said he would ask the tracker to talk to the game scout and work out a deal. The scout said for 300 dollors he would forget this ever happened.

I that time i didn't know what to think. I knew things were corrupt in Zim but i didn't realize they went this far. I thought that maybe this is how things are done all the time over here. Of course no one is going to post on the internet or say that they made a deal in the bush. At the time i didn't think about the laws that were broken.

Thats the deal Tim presented me and i took it. I know it was wrong but at the time i justyfied it by thinking the the bull would be ok.

Tim said we must keep this to ourselves and tell no one. Thats why i never said a thing about it.

Dawnroar,

Some of your points are the exact same ones that Adam had e-mailed me the other day.

AG

quote:

Originally posted by Scott Leonard:

A wounded buff? IF it went down exactly as you say, evidently it was worked out by everyone involved.


Scott

If it went down exactly as Dawn roar says, then it was illegal.

quote:

Originally posted by All Gone:
Yes the buffalo incident happened.

And this is how it happened

We were looking at a bull through the thick bush, we were close enough for a shot but it was to thick. The bull layed down. I could see a small part of the bull through a hole in the bush. i told Tim i had i had no idea what i was looking at. Tim was looking over my right shoulder as i am right handed and told me that what i could see was all front shoulder and vitals. I turned my scope all the up and looked again and still had no idea of what part of the buff i was looking at. Thats when Tim told me to shoot it. I said, i don't know tim i just can't tell are you sure. He hissed, yes i'm sure shoot the facking bull. Shoot the facking bull now Richard.

I put it in the middle of the black spot that was visable as instructed and took the shot. I was only able to get one shot.

There was very little blood and the bull did not slow down or veer off.

Thats when we came across the ele. i cerntainly did not ask to shoot the ele. That was the last thing on my mind at the time. The ele ordeal happened just the way i stated ealier.

We tracked the buff 1 1/2 to 2 hours more when we caught up to them, by then the bull was not bleeding anymore and we could not find him in the herd before they blew out again.

Thats when Tim explained to me how things work. He said he would ask the tracker to talk to the game scout and work out a deal. The scout said for 300 dollors he would forget this ever happened.

I that time i didn't know what to think. I knew things were corrupt in Zim but i didn't realize they went this far. I thought that maybe this is how things are done all the time over here. Of course no one is going to post on the internet or say that they made a deal in the bush. At the time i didn't think about the laws that were broken.

Thats the deal Tim presented me and i took it. I know it was wrong but at the time i justyfied it by thinking the the bull would be ok.

Tim said we must keep this to ourselves and tell no one. Thats why i never said a thing about it.

Dawnroar,

Some of your points are the exact same ones that Adam had e-mailed me the other day.

AG

In a nutshell, the PH made you shoot again. getting old.

Dawnroar,

How come you are privy to things discussed between Adam and the client?

And why would a client, who has never hun ted Africa before, not take the word of his PH?

After reading ALL of this I remember why I haven't been on AR or posted much here in the last 3 years. Same old shit.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Dawnroar,

How come you are privy to things discussed between Adam and the client?

And why would a client, who has never hun ted Africa before, not take the word of his PH?

I am wondering the same thing. Seems DawnMeow is privy to info only the hunter and PH would know.

Lets be careful about painting ZIM with a broad corruption brush. I know David, Martin, Buzz, my Chifuti team and all the other reputable outfits operating in Zim would not allow that deal to go down regardless if the game scout offered it up for consideration. I get it that you had difficult safari, but not all Zim operators are cut out of this cloth. Be careful not to generalize here as AR is home to some mighty good outfits with ZIM connections.

You said it Dave.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Fulson:
Lets be careful about painting ZIM with a broad corruption brush. I know David, Martin, Buzz, my Chifuti team and all the other reputable outfits operating in Zim would not allow that deal to go down regardless if the game scout offered it up for consideration. I get it that you had difficult safari, but not all Zim operators are cut out of this cloth. Be careful not to generalize here as AR is home to some mighty good outfits with ZIM connections.

Absolutely correct!

It is obvious DawnRoar is big pals with Adam and is playing shill. Since he wants full disclosure from AG, how about he reciprocates? He obviously knows stuff a disinterested observer would not.

Frankly, I don't think Adam's reputation was being smeared here. People wanted to see how he responded. And if you can't offer a hunt for 30K, don't sell it.

I don't see where Adam would be responsible for the actions of the PH. Should he refund the entire hunt? Of course not. I guess if he refunded the ele trophy that would be all anyone could expect. Refunding his commission in cash might help; that is between Adam and this guy.

I would guess MJines is a lawyer. Trial by internet may not be our court system, but to say it has absolutely no place is pretty arrogant. Remember the show "Who Wants to be a Millionaire?" When the audience voted on the correct answer, they normally got it right. In our court system, those with the most money (and sometimes that is the state/prosecution) wins. Not exactly fair either. One need only look at the llamapacker post; his initial post about shooting the wrong ele, his responses afterwards, the stupendous accusation that Nixon stole his checks and then presented them for payment himself, etc. was just so incredulous it is insane. Does it take a jury to figure that out?

Is there any doubt Blair is a scumbag? Without "trial by internet" bad behavior would remain undisclosed.

I know this: if I was AG, I would be very disappointed. But Adam is no Blair, so let's see what happens.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Dawnroar,

How come you are privy to things discussed between Adam and the client?

And why would a client, who has never hun ted Africa before, not take the word of his PH?

Well I guess that is a fair question and I will answer if you will so kindly do the same for a few I have. As you know Adam has had his reputation attacked here and he refuses to engage this crowd here. I am a lawyer who has his interest at heart and asked permission to get the entire story and the truth out to mitigate the damage done. I remind you it was all gone who chose this public place as the place to air the story.

Adam preferred it be solved in private so I am not inclined to hear any complaints about Adam letting the whole story go public. I would like to think I have been careful to stick to the truth. All gone has admitted the buff mistake, though he not surprisingly still blames others, and I think if pressed will admit everything I have said is true including his failure to simply email Adam about the PH swap.

I get that regardless of the circumstances the PH should have never allowed this ele to be killed and Adam has vigorously said the same to Wayne. But please do not hold that in your right hand hoping we will ignore what is in the other hand. He is a hunter and whether you have been to Africa or not he knew it is wrong to hide the buff. No amount of rationalization can absolve him from what he on his own chose to do. And if you can not understand how that situation put Adam in a difficult spot when trying to sort the ele I just don't know what to say.

My question to you is you now have proof that a member omitted very important information about all the relevant circumstances, caused reputations to be harmed based on 1/2 truths, engaged with the PH in illegal activities and violated basic hunting ethics. What do you intend to do about his membership here?

Wow. Let's get a rope and find a tree.

First we have some suggesting that HIV is a blessing in the sense that it takes out indigenous people and that will result in less poaching and more animals to hunt. Hooray for AIDS. Now we have others suggesting that trial by mob and innuendo is an appropriate means of resolving disputes. I guess when you cite Who Wants to be a Millionaire as support for your position, that should tell you how much weight an opinion is entitled to.

DawnRoar,

Sometimes there isn't a good side or bad side to every story. Sometimes all sides are in the wrong. Thank you for proving this.

You say Adam refuses to "engage this crowd" but I see he has no problem selling hunts to "this crowd"

Still simple to me. The elephant should not have been shot. Period. The trophy fee should be returned. Period.
Other "events" from the hunt are subjects for another thread.
Adam should get the money for AG or he won't get any of mine in the future.

Ski+3

Here is what needs to be done. Ph should refund ele trophy fee minus buff trophy fee which should be paid. Adam should post and defend himself and dawnrawr should excuse himself from the discussion due to personal bias. I do not think Adam's reputation will be harmed if he speaks up and shows that he is doing his best to make things right. Making things right dosnt mean giving the client his way but making reasonable efforts to make things right. If I were the client I do not think I would go back and hunt with the Ph after the prior experience either.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Wow. Let's get a rope and find a tree.

First we have some suggesting that HIV is a blessing in the sense that it takes out indigenous people and that will result in less poaching and more animals to hunt. Hooray for AIDS. Now we have others suggesting that trial by mob and innuendo is an appropriate means of resolving disputes. I guess when you cite Who Wants to be a Millionaire as support for your position, that should tell you how much weight an opinion is entitled to.

You must be a lawyer. Again, very arrogant. Because I am not a lawyer I am not entitled to form an opinion on this? What would you suggest? That AG sues in court? Ah...I can see that. More money for your profession.

As for the show cited, it is an interesting social phenomenon that the audience normally got the right answer. Focus on that fact, not insulting me for citing the show.

Both parties have equal opportunity to lay out their positions and facts. The rest of here can judge the responses. We can then choose whether to do business with Adam in the future or not.

It is not like your media analogy because the media chooses what to expose.

And the fact AG hid that buffalo has nothing to do with the fact his PH screwed up on this ele. But that is only my opinion. Others may have theirs.

It is funny that every time a contentious issue like this comes up, the group crying foul are lawyers. But how often is the crowd correct? I would submit just as often as our court system.

On second thought, bring two ropes, we need one for the lawyers too!

O.K so apart from the elephant, Tim allowed,no sorry, ordered the client to shoot an animal ( the bushbuck ) from a boat, ILLEGAL! Secondly, he openly bribed the game scout for $ 300 ( for the wounded buffalo ) , ILLEGAL I have talked to investigations RE the above fact of which we are able to do things about, shooting a calf, well, that is between Wayne and Allgone.

As the chairman of ZPHGA I can act on this even though Tim or Wayne are not members anything other than that hands are tied.

Mart

quote:

Originally posted by DawnRoar:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Dawnroar,

How come you are privy to things discussed between Adam and the client?

And why would a client, who has never hun ted Africa before, not take the word of his PH?

Well I guess that is a fair question and I will answer if you will so kindly do the same for a few I have. As you know Adam has had his reputation attacked here and he refuses to engage this crowd here. I am a lawyer who has his interest at heart and asked permission to get the entire story and the truth out to mitigate the damage done. I remind you it was all gone who chose this public place as the place to air the story.

Adam preferred it be solved in private so I am not inclined to hear any complaints about Adam letting the whole story go public. I would like to think I have been careful to stick to the truth. All gone has admitted the buff mistake, though he not surprisingly still blames others, and I think if pressed will admit everything I have said is true including his failure to simply email Adam about the PH swap.

I get that regardless of the circumstances the PH should have never allowed this ele to be killed and Adam has vigorously said the same to Wayne. But please do not hold that in your right hand hoping we will ignore what is in the other hand. He is a hunter and whether you have been to Africa or not he knew it is wrong to hide the buff. No amount of rationalization can absolve him from what he on his own chose to do. And if you can not understand how that situation put Adam in a difficult spot when trying to sort the ele I just don't know what to say.

My question to you is you now have proof that a member omitted very important information about all the relevant circumstances, caused reputations to be harmed based on 1/2 truths, engaged with the PH in illegal activities and violated basic hunting ethics. What do you intend to do about his membership here?

DawnRoar:

I don't think you need to remove yourself from this debate; if Adam chooses to have you post here on his behalf there is nothing wrong with that. AG might have lost out on this hunt, but Adam realizes this might have a major impact on his business.

Thanks for stating your position. I may not agree with everything you state, but at least I know where you are coming from.

Good luck getting AG banned. Even if he is, others will bring this issue up and until the majority of the members on AR think this has been adequately addressed, it will have an impact on Adam's business. At least that is how I am reading the tea leaves.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
On second thought, bring two ropes, we need one for the lawyers too!

No, we don't need two ropes. But we don't need lawyers to debate the facts that each side presents. This is not a lynch mob, it is a public debate.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
This is not a lynch mob, it is a public debate.

That is generally the crowd's view. Wonder if Mark and Adam see it the same way?

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:
DawnRoar,

Sometimes there isn't a good side or bad side to every story. Sometimes all sides are in the wrong. Thank you for proving this.

You say Adam refuses to "engage this crowd" but I see he has no problem selling hunts to "this crowd"

I guess I said it wrong. Adam is in a no win situation here. Just read what others are still saying despite having all the facts. There are a lot of people here who are very respected both by myself and Adam. Unfortunately a few make it a no win situation no matter what is true. I would hope those who get what happened here will still do business and bet they will.

The situation with the buff is very different from the ele and you can rest assured that is exactly the position Adam has taken and is working hard to get it addressed. BUT it makes it difficult when dealing with the owner to un-bundle the two as they both have financial consequences. If you don't get that I am sorry as there is nothing else I can say to make it plainer. Also lost in the white noise is the fact that the PH change which was the gravamen of his complaint in the beginning is a situation where the hunter could have simply forwarded the email. Something the hunter as of this moment not denied.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
This is not a lynch mob, it is a public debate.

That is generally the crowd's view. Wonder if Mark and Adam see it the same way?

What does Mark Young have to do with this? He is totally unconnected in any way that I can see. And Adam certainly didn't do anything wrong; the issue is how he handles this and does it rest well with the members here. And there is nothing wrong with him taking time to make a decision, even gauge the reaction/opinions of us on this site. Pretty simple.

Look, AG bribed a game scout but the PH was complicit. Knock on AG. Not the first time it has happened in Africa. But the facts are his PH told him to shoot a calf. If there are other extenuating circumstances, perhaps DawnRoar can present them.

Personally, if I were Adam, I would refund the ele TF minus the buffalo TF and call it good. What do others think?

DawnRoar,

Adam is not in a "no win situation".

He can come on here and give a refund on the TF minus the buffalo TF, regardless of weather he deserves it or not. IMO you cant seperate the different issues.

Then Adam would have went above and beyond for someone who may not deserve it.

Then "He Wins"

So to summarize the hunt>
- The Ph chased down and cut-off the kudu and appears to have allowed AG to shoot the kudu from the vehicle
- The PH colluded with AG to bribe the game scout for the wounded and lost buff
- The PH had the client shoot the bushbuck form the boat which is illegal
- Finally, the PH made AG shoot a juvenile elephant

How any one places blame on all this on ACST is beyond me! IMHO, ACST would do good to simply refund his commission and strike off of his good business list both client and outfitter.

WD on the other hand, needs to refund the client's safari in full and report TL to the authorities to have his license withdrawn.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:
So to summarize the hunt>
- The Ph chased down and cut-off the kudu and appears to have allowed AG to shoot the kudu from the vehicle
- The PH colluded with AG to bribe the game scout for the wounded and lost buff
- The PH had the client shoot the bushbuck form the boat which is illegal
- Finally, the PH made AG shoot a juvenile elephant

How any one places blame on all this on ACST is beyond me! IMHO, ACST would do good to simply refund his commission and strike off of his good business list both client and outfitter.

WD on the other hand, needs to refund the client's safari in full and report TL to the authorities to have his license withdrawn.

Probably the best course of action, but it will never happen.

BTW, PHs and game guards have been known to "work around" tricky situations for the price of a cash "fine" paid at the time (wink, wink).

A visiting hunter would be very hard pressed to decline if under threat of incarceration.

George

quote:

Originally posted by DawnRoar:
The situation with the buff is very different from the ele and you can rest assured that is exactly the position Adam has taken and is working hard to get it addressed. BUT it makes it difficult when dealing with the owner to un-bundle the two as they both have financial consequences. If you don't get that I am sorry as there is nothing else I can say to make it plainer. Also lost in the white noise is the fact that the PH change which was the gravamen of his complaint in the beginning is a situation where the hunter could have simply forwarded the email. Something the hunter as of this moment not denied.

Most of us have acknowledged that Adam is doing the right thing and working to find a resolution to this. For you to say otherwise is disingenuous. The gravamen was not the change in PH but rather the demeanor and professionalism of the PH once the hunt began. With airline tickets purchased and vacation arrangements made, I wonder what would have happened if All Gone had in fact emailed the last minute change in PH to his agent? Would someone have provided a full refund had he elected not to go? Would they have covered cancellation costs for his flights? As I see it, All Gone didn't have much choice, and contacting the agent would have made little difference, but I'd be interested to hear the other side from Adam.

It's important to bear in mind that All Gone was admittedly new and naive about hunting Africa, and a PH in that situation is going to have considerable influence on how a tyro hunter behaves. Being told what is or is not a trophy animal is, I think, rarely going to be challenged by a first-time hunter, nor is the recommended shot placement. From my experience, for you to insinuate that All Gone fired on these animals absent the approval and direction of the PH is just silly. On the other hand, All Gone knew better than to agree with his PH's suggestion to bribe the game scout - corruption is wrong whether in Africa or America. Depriving the local community of the funds that flow from trophy fees is nothing less than theft from people who rely upon them for their basic survival.

If accurate, my only fault with Adam Clement Tracking Safaris was that they released the escrowed trophy fees without first consulting with their client hunter. But if that's incorrect, we should hear about it. To his continuing credit, Adam appears to be doing all he can to remedy this mess, though hearing from him personally rather than through a proxy would be smart. He's a sharp guy and plenty capable of handling these issues without you doing it for him. And I'm sure he will continue putting pressure on Jimba Safaris to refund the trophy elephant fee since none was taken. On the other hand, from such refund, Adam needs to deduct the trophy fee for the buffalo, and hopefully then ensure that the proper authority in Zimbabwe is paid.

Finally, given that the PH has admitted to illegally facilitating a bribe to a government official, along with shooting game in contravention of Zimbabwean game laws, he should be fired from Jimba Safaris and lose his PH license. Do your sources tell you what has happened to him?

I stand by my earlier statement that Adam shouldn't be concerned about this issue being brought up here. The light of truth eventually shines most of the time. This situation is becoming more and more enlightened in my opinion.

It looks to me that Adam has not done anything wrong here. I can't see why his reputation would be damaged by this fiasco; quite the opposite in my book.

It looks to me like the problem lies with AG and the PH. The PH's actions have already been called out as unprofessional and illegal.

AG, I supported you in my original post but begging for sympathy here after this deal with the buffalo ... You've got some nerve, brother!

It doesn't take a handful of safaris to know right from wrong!

Delta Dawn,
Are you any relation to the famous lawyer, Doug Chester, hired by Mr. Ray Ray Atkinson, the man of 20,000 posts who had similar credibility issues?

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
What does Mark Young have to do with this? He is totally unconnected in any way that I can see.

I already pointed this out once. Seems it got missed then as well.

quote:

Originally posted by martin pieters:
O.K so apart from the elephant, Tim allowed,no sorry, ordered the client to shoot an animal ( the bushbuck ) from a boat, ILLEGAL! Mart

That was my understanding, as well.

quote:

Originally posted by DawnRoar:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Dawnroar,

How come you are privy to things discussed between Adam and the client?

And why would a client, who has never hun ted Africa before, not take the word of his PH?

Well I guess that is a fair question and I will answer if you will so kindly do the same for a few I have. As you know Adam has had his reputation attacked here and he refuses to engage this crowd here. I am a lawyer who has his interest at heart and asked permission to get the entire story and the truth out to mitigate the damage done. I remind you it was all gone who chose this public place as the place to air the story.

Adam preferred it be solved in private so I am not inclined to hear any complaints about Adam letting the whole story go public. I would like to think I have been careful to stick to the truth. All gone has admitted the buff mistake, though he not surprisingly still blames others, and I think if pressed will admit everything I have said is true including his failure to simply email Adam about the PH swap.

I get that regardless of the circumstances the PH should have never allowed this ele to be killed and Adam has vigorously said the same to Wayne. But please do not hold that in your right hand hoping we will ignore what is in the other hand. He is a hunter and whether you have been to Africa or not he knew it is wrong to hide the buff. No amount of rationalization can absolve him from what he on his own chose to do. And if you can not understand how that situation put Adam in a difficult spot when trying to sort the ele I just don't know what to say.

My question to you is you now have proof that a member omitted very important information about all the relevant circumstances, caused reputations to be harmed based on 1/2 truths, engaged with the PH in illegal activities and violated basic hunting ethics. What do you intend to do about his membership here?

The truth and attorney don't belong in the same posting.

quote:

Originally posted by DawnRoar:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Dawnroar,

Answer this simple question for me. Is Adam an agent for the hunter that has first hand knowledge of the outfitters he books for and a person qualified to advise people on where to have a proper hunt? Or...is he a salesman peddling wares of various quality and buyer beware?

Really...I am confused right now...and trying figure out which?

The answer will tell me how I should feel about this situation and how to view him as an agent in the future.

What the hell does that have to do with anything other than you love Aaron and have different opinions about Adam because of something unrelated to the issues raised in this thread? But let me try and answer.

First let me say that Aaron and I are friends for sure but we have not even spoken of this as Aaron is hunting in Wyoming...AND...I do NOT speak for Aaron. My opinions are mine and mine only.

Now...I am just trying to figure out what a "booking agent" is...an agent for the client or a salesman. Makes a big difference to me in how I view this.

The ele should NOT have shot...no matter what...that PH should NOT be in the field no matter what...if Wayne runs such a shoddy outfit to have a PH like this guy and to let a client get off to shoot a buff on his own...sounds like he is a person to be avoided at all cost. All Gone may be a complete @#$%, I don't know. Does not excuse how poorly the hunt was run...AND...if I was an agent working for a client...I would feel responsible for hooking him up with such a piss poor outfit...just my way of seeing it.

I personally don't refer people in my business to places that I am not 100% for sure that they will try to do a job just as well as I would do it myself. But...maybe thats just me.