Consensus seems to be a full refund is in order. Will really be watching this one to see what goes down.

Richard really does deserve a full refund. We argue about lions a lot and at least I can see how some would be a difficult call. But to shoot that calf ele...that was just blatant disregard for ethic in any definition of the word...pitiful!

I hope it ends well for you Richard...and don't give up on Africa...there are some really good folks there!

quote:

Originally posted by JBoutfishn:
Consensus seems to be a full refund is in order. Will really be watching this one to see what goes down.

+1

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Richard really does deserve a full refund. We argue about lions a lot and at least I can see how some would be a difficult call. But to shoot that calf ele...that was just blatant disregard for ethic in any definition of the word...pitiful!

I hope it ends well for you Richard...and don't give up on Africa...there are some really good folks there!

I didn't tell my wife any details about this but pulled up the thread and scrolled to the pictures only. Then I said, "Hey check out this Elephant" (she's used to me doing this for other hunt report pictures). She walked over to the computer, looked at it, and said, "Nice photoshop!! That's not real right?"

Then I had her read the thread. Bad idea!!

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

Originally posted by JBoutfishn:
Consensus seems to be a full refund is in order. Will really be watching this one to see what goes down.

+1

+2

Brett

Thanks guys, I appreciate your suggestions and support.

I am not sure at this time if the money has been sent or not. I would hope not, if Adam is serious about trying to get a refund.

When i found out this ele was a calf i e-mailed Adam and asked that the full trophy fee be refunded.

I had indeed sent Adam pictures of the ele. After about a week of no response from Adam i called him. I stated that i thought the ele was really small and he agreed. There were no other comments about the size of the ele from Adam.

Richard

quote:

Originally posted by bwanamrm:
One last thing, I agree with Nganga that Mark never should have given out the hunter's name in his post. Totally unprofessional. Client confidentiality is sancrosact in any business. It is no different in the travel business. Which brings up another discussion altogether, who is the booking agent working for? The client or the outfitter?

Bwanamrm is spot on. Mark needs to remove All Gone's real name from his post. Posting his name when the hunter chose to use a handle is completely unprofessional and I can't think of any reason for doing so other than to try to bully the guy. Also, the man's picture has been posted as well and the state he lives in and it would be very easy for a crazy greenie or anti to find out where he lives. The killing of a calf elephant like this even though it was done mistakenly is just the type of thing that really affects the antis emotionally and could set off a crazy and prompt them to do something stupid and we know that the other side monitors this website. If something were to happen to the hunter or one of his family as a result of his personal information beiung posted without his consent Mark and Safari Trackers would be responsible and liable and from a business standpoint posting it was stupid at the very least. MARK, YOU NEED TO REMOVE HIS NAME FROM YOUR POST.

I think the hunter wanted his photos posted.

I have a feeling that this situation started out bad and will only get worse.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I think the hunter wanted his photos posted.

I agree on the pics but that is different than posting a man's name, especially in a situation such as this. Why is the posting of his personal info okay given that he signed up here using a handle? And for what purpose would Safari Hunters post his name and why are you defending them? I think that Mark is a piece of shit for coming on this thread and attempting to bully All Gone not only with the first post Mark made but also his second where he called All Gone out by name and tried to intimidate him. Mark doesn't garner a lot of repeat business and this thread is indicative of why that is.

This guy got screwed and deserves a refund, and not just for the trophy fees, he should get a discounted return hunt since Adam and Mark both knew there were problems with the operator and sent him anyway.

Save the profane and nasty PMs, Mark. We've been through it before and I won't read them.

Good luck, All Gone, you were screwed and I hope it is all made right for you.

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
All Gone,

I guess you must realize that this is an international forum so basically you've already let the cat out of the bag so to speak and made your intent to write a negative report quite clear.

Mark

And the problem would be.

quote:

Originally posted by Robert Wilde:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I think the hunter wanted his photos posted.

I agree on the pics but that is different than posting a man's name, especially in a situation such as this. Why is the posting of his personal info okay given that he signed up here using a handle? And for what purpose would Safari Hunters post his name and why are you defending them? I think that Mark is a piece of shit for coming on this thread and attempting to bully All Gone not only with the first post Mark made but also his second where he called All Gone out by name and tried to intimidate him. Mark doesn't garner a lot of repeat business and this thread is indicative of why that is.

This guy got screwed and deserves a refund, and not just for the trophy fees, he should get a discounted return hunt since Adam and Mark both knew there were problems with the operator and sent him anyway.

Save the profane and nasty PMs, Mark. We've been through it before and I won't read them.

Good luck, All Gone, you were screwed and I hope it is all made right for you.

Let us say Mark was representing me would you book through him or not?

Funny that Adam, who is an AR member, has NOT responded here yet.

BTW Ironically, Mark has just posted an Elephant hunt for sale over at the discounted hunts section...

I think Adam is out of the country.

And I sincerely hope that the elephant hunt Mark has posted is NOT with this safari company.

I think that's a bit much Robert. If Adam was handling this hunt and client Mark may very well not have been aware of him even at his initial post. I'll agree that he had no business posting the guy's name, but other than that I'll be inclined to give Mark the benefit of doubt until proven otherwise. That said Mark needs to remove the man's name and someone needs to get him a 100% refund on the elephant trophy fee. Also if Adam failed to inform him of a potential problem with the outfitter (if that was the case) how is that Mark's fault?

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I think the hunter wanted his photos posted.

Allgone emailed me the photos and wanted me to put them here. I can remove them if he wants..

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:


Let us say Mark was representing me would you book through him or not?

Why is everyone hung up on Mark ? This is Adams client, and Adams business.

and one more thing am I the only one that think a 100% refund are not right ?!?

Mark,

I have nothing to hide. I'm not afraid of the wackos. I don't think it's ths wackos i need to be afraid of!

I don't mind my name being on here but the possible reason why you felt compelled to put it on here does bother me a little.

What was your motive for doing so? Did you hope that someone would recognize my name and drag me through the mud.

Maybe I'm wrong but i have this feeling that your intentions are becoming quite clear also.

Could you clear up this small matter for me please?

Thank You,
Richard

If you would like to help other hunters avoid this same problem when the dust settles; post a report on some other sites like Africanhunting.com and The Hunting Report.

Google will never return a result of any of these postings on this forum the way it is set up; so none of this will get out there for other hunters to see.

I think you got hosed and unfortunately you will see little in the way of help. Not trying to be a downer but this is a business with little ability for the client to recover funds.

I had a lazy POS PH too for the start of a hunt so I feel your pain......Lucky I was able to correct it and move on.

No excuse for that young animal.....none.

quote:

Originally posted by A.Dahlgren:

This a baby elephant, no?

Richard-

No offense, but my post here is made with the assumption that you didn't intentionally and willfully shoot that ele against the PH's instructions (or the Kudu for that matter).

Having said that, I truly feel sorry for you!! With only one trip to Africa under my belt I can't imagine what it must be like to have had the experience you did....not sure I'd want to go back frankly!

However, since my trip was nothing like yours, I've been desperately trying to put together another one for the past couple of years and have contacted Mark Young and am/was considering ACST. Although he didn't book your hunt, Mark does have a dog in this fight and his lack of response to the reasoning behind posting your full name has tarnished his rep IMO. Won't be contacting him again unless he REALLY steps up!

As to Adam, all I can say is unless he not only refunds you 100% of the trophy fee or fees AND provides you with a significantly discounted ele hunt at your convenience, then he is definately on my S#!T list. You didn't just shoot a sub-par trophy, you were completely ROBBED!!!!

IMO a booking agent must assume complete responsiblity and liability for any services that he sells or arranges. Shouldn't matter whether or not the monies were already transferred to the outfitter...that's the booking agent's problem and shouldn't be the customer's. Aren't the booking agents always telling us that this is exactly why we should book through them?? If they want to sidestep this type of liability then they are not agents at all...they are more of a registry or referral service.

Richard, I think you are making a mistake if you settle for anything less than complete satisfaction here! I'm sure you're feeling some guilt about all this but IMO if you've never hunted elephant before and the PH told you to shoot that one then it's totally on him and those responsible for him....END OF STORY!!!!

Once again, if for some reason the facts are substantially different than what we have been lead to believe, then I'll retract my statements and make my apologies

Good luck and keep us posted please.

Regards,
Scott

I had the same thoughts about him shooting the wrong elephant.

But, below is a quote from his Hunt Report on the Hunt Report Forum.

"...We ended up running across a small herd of ele while tracking the buff. We went around most of them, when the trackers said there was one more ahead of us. I could tell it was a bull but could not get a good look at it because he was standing behind a small group of trees. Thats when Tim grabbed the shooting sticks from the game scout. He positioned the sticks then told me to get on them which i did. Then he told me where to shoot it for a side brainer and said shoot it now!...

All Gone,

As stated above I think this is a sad situation and wish you the best, along with other innocent bystanders to the situation.

I feel compelled to ask though (since it might have an effect on your future course of action) who told you the kudu measured out at 50 inches?

Obviously difficult to tell from the photos and if am wrong apologies to all concerned, but I would think that's not anywhere near 50 inches.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I had the same thoughts about him shooting the wrong elephant.

But, below is a quote from his Hunt Report on the Hunt Report Forum.

"...We ended up running across a small herd of ele while tracking the buff. We went around most of them, when the trackers said there was one more ahead of us. I could tell it was a bull but could not get a good look at it because he was standing behind a small group of trees. Thats when Tim grabbed the shooting sticks from the game scout. He positioned the sticks then told me to get on them which i did. Then he told me where to shoot it for a side brainer and said shoot it now!...

I read the report.....regretful experience for sure!!
PH should have his license pulled.

All Gone:

""I could tell it was a bull but could not get a good look at it because he was standing behind a small group of trees"".

If I was going to expedite a 300gr bullet valued at $10,000 I would make sure it was money well spent before squeezing off the shot.

Not saying you shot the wrong elephant but shooting something you were not sure of also holds you culpable to some degree.
You had a side brain shot which therefore also gives you a picture of the head and tusks (at least one anyway); part of the body must also have been visible, all of which would have given a clear indication of what you were shooting at.

Distance at which this elephant was shot was not mentioned in your report.

Had I been a newbie on an African safari (and I'm sure most everyone out there would have done the same) I would have looked at as many DG hunt reports and seen what a trophy elephant, buffalo, 6+ year old Lion looks like, knowing what to expect once I got there and being in a position to question the PH if I thought it didn't make the grade.

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

Had I been a newbie on an African safari (and I'm sure most everyone out there would have done the same) I would have looked at as many DG hunt reports and seen what a trophy elephant, buffalo, 6+ year old Lion looks like, knowing what to expect once I got there and being in a position to question the PH if I thought it didn't make the grade.

Me too!!!

But I still think he deserves a fefund...as no PH I hunt with would have allowed such a thing...much less advocate it.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

Had I been a newbie on an African safari (and I'm sure most everyone out there would have done the same) I would have looked at as many DG hunt reports and seen what a trophy elephant, buffalo, 6+ year old Lion looks like, knowing what to expect once I got there and being in a position to question the PH if I thought it didn't make the grade.

Me too!!!

But I still think he deserves a fefund...as no PH I hunt with would have allowed such a thing...much less advocate it.

Lane:

For sure - am not suggesting AG should bear the brunt of the cock up. What we have seen in terms of photographs is evident that his PH had little (if at all, any) experience on elephant hunting.

Fujo,

Very good point you bring and something that should definitely be done by every hunter...esp on a lion hunt.

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:

quote:

Originally posted by Robert Wilde:
I think that Mark is a piece of shit for coming on this thread and attempting to bully All Gone not only with the first post Mark made but also his second where he called All Gone out by name and tried to intimidate him.

I think that's a bit much Robert. If Adam was handling this hunt and client Mark may very well not have been aware of him even at his initial post. I'll agree that he had no business posting the guy's name, but other than that I'll be inclined to give Mark the benefit of doubt until proven otherwise. That said Mark needs to remove the man's name and someone needs to get him a 100% refund on the elephant trophy fee. Also if Adam failed to inform him of a potential problem with the outfitter (if that was the case) how is that Mark's fault?

Brett

You are right Brett I shouldn't have called Mark that and I retract it. I was out of line. However, I still think the guy is a jerk and a bully not just in this instance but in others as I have read a lot of his past posts and this sort of continual behavior confirms for me why I would never book a hunt through him.

This from the hunt report about Leopard......

We waited until he got settled in and started feeding. By then i was in my rifle and ready. Tim knew i was in position when he whispered OK i'm going to turn the torch on now. When the light hit him it was the most beautiful sight i have ever seen. Tim hissed shoot,shoot! BANG!

I have never hunted Leopard but how would the PH know in a split second of torch light that it was a male?

The lack of response from both Adam and Mark have convince most of us not to book with them I should think. I'm also think where the other outfitters who were all over the Blair fiasco are? Is there a double standard here?

All Gone,

I have deleted your name from my earlier post. I honestly had not considered that some nut might choose to harass you because of the elepant. I do apologize for my lack of forethought.

As for the quote below I had no idea you were a client of ACST at the time nor was it an attempt to intimidate you in any way. That's not my style. If I want to say something to you concerning business it will be crystal clear.

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
All Gone,

I guess you must realize that this is an international forum so basically you've already let the cat out of the bag so to speak and made your intent to write a negative report quite clear.

Mark

Personally I feel that it is obvious you have some serious and legitimate concerns about your safari that need to be addressed. My hope would be that Adam can find you a satisfactory resolution upon his return from Scotland.

Mark

Thoughtful response from you Mark, you seem to be taking the hight road on this issue...good for you.

Adam however, is going to have a black eye on his reputation when this is over.

He made the client call him after not hearing from him for a week??? Now he's in Scotland...how convenient. This is really starting to stink!

Funny that Adam "Cannot" respond from Scotland....he has posted stuff from Tanzania in the past, what's the problem with responding from where he is now?? Scotland is not the Congo, and I'm sure that he has access to a computer, and is most likely reading this all now.

As I said before, this is really starting to stink!

Leopardtrack,

Adam has been in contact with All Gone while he has been in Scotland and has promised to call All Gone on his return from Scotland. This correspondence is between Adam and All Gone and I don't think Adam is obligated to copy in AR on the details of private correspondence with a client. If All Gone chooses to share that is his business.

Mark

Good stuff Mark.

I'd still like to know if Adam was aware of problems with the outfitter before the hunt was booked and failed to tell All Gone of the problems. Is this the case All Gone? If that is the case I'd be more upset about not being told the whole story about the outfit more than the money or refund. To me that's the basics of a booking agent/client hunter relationship. You pay for someone who knows the outfit in and out to tell you this is the good, this is the bad, I think they would fit your needs, so what do you think? If the booking agent tells me food and accomodations on a hunt will be fair I'm not going to be upset when I go there and find they aren't 5 star. If the booking agent tells me a PH isn't the most verbose, but produces well and I go on a hunt I'm not going to come back unhappy that the PH didn't talk my ear off. If they tell me I'm taking a chance booking at a certain time due to water availability and I book and have a tough hunt because of water availability I'm not going to complain. If my booking agent doesn't tell me about these things or about problems with the company itself and I have a problem.....yeah I'm going to be upset!!! FULL disclosure is key!

Brett

Brett,
Wasn't All Gone paying for ACST's expertise to know problems with the outfitter? Is Adam going to tell All Gone the food is great but the PH can't tell a baby elephant from a hole in the ground or he's prone to get pissed at a buffalo and have you shoot a baby elephant. In this case Adam failed in every angle you look at it.

Mark still haven't explain why it was necessary to name All Gone in this thread and as stated earlier. Adam is in a first world country but choose not engage and the longer he waits the worse it's going to get.

Brett, good post amd well thought out. Thanks for the insightful position without the drama of anti agent or anti client.

Tom

quote:

Originally posted by Leopardtrack:
Thoughtful response from you Mark, you seem to be taking the hight road on this issue...good for you.

Adam however, is going to have a black eye on his reputation when this is over.

I disagree. If Adam is working on getting the client a refund and has not sent his money overseas I don't think he has to contact him daily(or weekly) to tell him, "I haven't heard from them yet...."

IMO, the only thing that will affect Adam's reputation is the final resolution.

Mark and Adam
I know that my opinion does not hold much weight(but I am a potential future client and I would really like to book through Mark as he is a "good guy" IMO) but a fair resolution would be to refund elephant trophy fee(if WD is such a POS that he won't agree to this then it is your fault for selling hunts for him) and refund your commission, then offer to send him on a hunt of his choice with your commission fully discounted.

I know that this resolution would be a big money loser, but that is the chance you take when you book for a half-assed outfit. And your reputation is worth more than the potential loss.

quote:

Originally posted by txlonghorn:

Mark still haven't explain why it was necessary to name All Gone in this thread and as stated earlier.

I believe the naming was an honest mistake. I hesitate to call it a mistake because this whole "internet handle" thing is a bunch of BS in my opinion. Are all you guys too candy-assed to use your real names?

Maybe we can collectively "grow a pair" an start posting under our real names(like Brett, Anne, Mark, Saeed, Bobby, Ray and Jeffe.)

No need for name calling. And no need to sidetrack this thread, it's too interesting