This thread won't be sidetracked simply because it is too interesting.

And don't worry about the name calling, by hiding behind your handle you are the immune.

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:
I believe the naming was an honest mistake. I hesitate to call it a mistake because this whole "internet handle" thing is a bunch of BS in my opinion. Are all you guys too candy-assed to use your real names?

Maybe we can collectively "grow a pair" an start posting under our real names(like Brett, Anne, Mark, Saeed, Bobby, Ray and Jeffe.)

Jason, you are either remarkably naive, sheltered from the real world, or absent commonsense. However, as I suspect you already know, many posters on AR use an 'internet handle' to insulate themselves from unintended consequence, not because they lack your sense of cojones.

More than a few members on AR have employment that could be placed at risk from 'blowback' by the often faceless hoards of rabid anti's. Is that really being "candy-assed" in your estimation? Of course, that's only one of several reasons a person might use a nom de plume.

I never made a great effort to conceal my identity, and that decision came back to haunt me. A former member of AR took violent exception to one of my posts and contacted me by personal message. (Not that it matters, but I had taken to task several highly racist posts denigrating Africans and Muslims.)

In his PM he wrote that I was the worst kind of American, that me and my philosophy represented a threat to the security of our country – and that he and others had found out who I was and where I lived. The message? He and his friends could find me if they wanted to at a time of their choosing.

I have a wife and nine year-old son, Jason. If in your mind "growing a pair" means courting risk to your job, home, or family in order to satisfy your sense of manhood, then I'd prefer to be a "candy-ass" in your eyes.

I use a screen name on all of the forums I am on and it is not intended to hide a damn thing.

I list both my name/cell phone number/physical address and email address on the hunts I offer.

As KPete alluded to, just because a person uses a screen name on a site does not mean they are trying to hide anything.

Why don't you lobby the PTB's on here to force members to only use their real name and see how far that gets you.

You really don't appear to be very observant either as lots of members that have screen names list their own name in their signatures, such as you do.

The discussion however has nothing to do with screen names and whether or not people that use them are trying to hide anything, it has to do with a member experiencing several very questionable/ethical incidents involving a PH and Booking Agent/Outfitter on a recent safari.

Kim

You have given your identity away through your handle, signing your posts with your name, numerous hunt reports with names and photos of yourself and your faimily, etc.

So I have no problem with you(keep in mind that I have given out nearly the identical amount of info that you have) or anyone else who has placed a name/face with their handle.

My problem is that there seem to be a lot of fairly new guys(with zero personal information given) jumping in on this post.

I guess I just think we would be more civil if we were conversing as real people and not anonymous internet identities.


So.... Back to the issue at hand. I really hope Adam can get All Gone the refund that he deserves. Anything less will have a huge impact an his future business.

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:
Kim

...

I guess I just think we would be more civil if we were conversing as real people and not anonymous internet identities.

So.... Back to the issue at hand. I really hope Adam can get All Gone the refund that he deserves. Anything less will have a huge impact an his future business.

Jason:

Your point regarding civility is very true; there is a corresponding level of cowardice to vitriol in many of the anonymous posts one reads on AR (and elsewhere on the internet). Unfortunately, anonymity also emboldens persons harboring potentially more dangerous inclinations than simply being an asshole - as I found out. One reason for anonymity begets another ...

And reflecting on that thought, perhaps my previous post was less than civil towards you, and for that I apologize.

As to your last point regarding All Gone's hunt, I think many of us will agree that Adam and the contracting PH need to step up to the plate and provide a full refund on the elephant. Reputations are made not so much when safaris go well as they do when things go seriously wrong.

quote:

Originally posted by KPete:

As to your last point regarding All Gone's hunt, I think many of us will agree that Mark and the contracting PH need to step up to the plate and provide a full refund on the elephant.

I believe you mean Adam do you not?

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

I believe you mean Adam do you not?

Yes, thanks.

Mark,

You are 100% correct when you say that Adam has no obligation to post anything here...it is between him and his client.

The underlying issue seems to be that Adam has done NOTHING yet to instill any confidence in All Gone. Remember it took a week for All Gone to hear from Adam and obviously All Gone is stressing about this.

I would think that a "Don't Worry All Gone, I'll make it Right" would have gone a long way...anything less would worry me if I were him.

I hope that they come to an agreement...there are allot of us here waiting to see how this pan's out.

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Leopardtrack,

Adam has been in contact with All Gone while he has been in Scotland and has promised to call All Gone on his return from Scotland. This correspondence is between Adam and All Gone and I don't think Adam is obligated to copy in AR on the details of private correspondence with a client. If All Gone chooses to share that is his business.

Mark

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JBrown:
Kim

You have given your identity away through your handle, signing your posts with your name, numerous hunt reports with names and photos of yourself and your faimily, etc.


My problem is that there seem to be a lot of fairly new guys(with zero personal information given) jumping in on this post.

I guess I just think we would be more civil if we were conversing as real people and not anonymous .


So exactly how much personal information does Saeed (the owner of this site) not Jason (a member not unlike any other registered member) require before a participant can post an opinion on this site? I would say that this thread is pretty civil compared to many I've read on this forum.

"...Mark and Adam
I know that my opinion does not hold much weight(but I am a potential future client and I would really like to book through Mark as he is a "good guy" IMO) but a fair resolution would be to refund elephant trophy fee(if WD is such a POS that he won't agree to this then it is your fault for selling hunts for him) and refund your commission, then offer to send him on a hunt of his choice with your commission fully discounted.

I know that this resolution would be a big money loser, but that is the chance you take when you book for a half-assed outfit. And your reputation is worth more than the potential loss...

Jason"

Very true statememnt.

Also may I add that ANY controversy regarding a hunt which gets posted here, and the final outcome is not cleared up, leaves a bad taste regarding the reputation of the both the outfitter and and client.

Some hunters DO encounter problems, with either the booking agent or the PH, sometimes both, and never post it on a public forum.

But, they do talk about it in private.

That, of course, is their privilage and choice.

But, at least in some instances, I thi nk they should make their problems public, at least as a service for other to avoid falling into.

Let me belatedly congratulate you on your first safari, All Gone. Coming away with the incomparable experience that is hunting Africa, coupled with a nice leopard and several other representative trophies, is a fine accomplishment. The fact that your hunt was severely tarnished, what with your being saddled with an unprofessional professional hunter, is understandably bitter medicine so early in your safari career. While your situation has been exhaustively commented on, I would like to weigh in with a couple of personal observations.

First, while still a tyro myself on the subject of African hunting, I nevertheless believe that you are absolutely correct in your expectation of having your PH discuss with you your trophy before being told to bust it. Let me contrast your experience with my recent hunt with CM Safaris.

Buzz Charlton was my PH and we were pursuing tuskless elephant in the Dande North concession. On our second day out we encountered a small herd containing a large and ancient tuskless. Buzz took several minutes glassing the herd and the one tuskless in the group before he felt confident that this was a shootable elephant. What surprised me was when he beckoned me to his side and asked me to use my binos to carefully inspect the tuskless. He then whispered to me, "Kim, this is a good, old tuskless. But it's only your second day here ... are you sure you want to take her"? At first I thought it was a trick question. Yet I could see in his eyes and hear in his voice that he was completely sincere in making sure that I wanted to shoot that tuskless at that time. Had I said, "No, Buzz, let's let this one go and keep on hunting" he would have been fine with that. His priority then, and throughout the hunt, was to ensure that he found the best trophies he could, and then let me decide if I wanted to take them.

Bear in mind, this was for a tuskless elephant, not a trophy bull. And quite frankly, beyond a certain age and assuming no dependent calf, a tuskless is a tuskless. And yet Buzz was still eager to determine if this was an elephant I wanted. For this (and many other) reasons, I have an abiding respect for Buzz Charlton. He deserves his sterling reputation.

My point here is this: While it is your decision to pull the trigger, it is the responsibility of the PH to tell you when to pull the trigger. You are paying for his services, which include trophy judgment. In the case of your 'trophy elephant' you were deprived of the services you paid for. As you undoubtedly have learned, the AR membership is a fiercely opinionated body that would readily debate the rising of the sun tomorrow; yet there is by my reading a unanimity of opinion that you paid for a trophy elephant that was never delivered.

Second, not enough has been commented on regarding Wayne Dietrechsen - the owner of Jimba Safaris and the PH you contracted to accompany you - bailing out of your hunt in the penultimate moments before your hunt. Unless he, or someone in his family, was sick and dying, he should have honored his agreement and served as your PH no matter how inconvenient. Having to attend a meeting – unless it was to arrange for a kidney transplant – is entirely unacceptable. That he promised to be there for part of your hunt and failed to show up at all is even more telling of his alleged professionalism. Imagine if you had notified Jimba Safaris (or Adam Clements Safaris) that a last minute meeting came up and you couldn't make it to the hunt. Undoubtedly you would have been greeted with a substantial penalty levied against your deposit. Why doesn't it work the other way around? Why shouldn't Jimba Safaris pay a penalty for failing to perform in accordance with your contract?

The bottom line is that Jimba Safaris appears to have breached your agreement before you ever showed up, leaving you with little recourse inasmuch as you had already - I assume - taken time from work, paid for airline tickets, etc. For that breach alone you should have been provided a substantial discount. Given that they took money from your deposit for a trophy elephant that was never delivered, there is also an argument for fraudulent conversion. As Saeed very correctly said, "any controversy regarding a hunt which gets posted here, and the final outcome is not cleared up, leaves a bad taste regarding the reputation of the both the outfitter and client".

Anything less than a discount on your total bill and a full refund on the elephant, and I suspect that Jimba Safaris, Wayne Dietrechsen, Tim Lamprecht, and sadly, Adam Clements Safaris will never recover the confidence of the hunting community or their respective reputations.

quote:

Originally posted by KPete:
Second, not enough has been commented on regarding Wayne Dietrechsen - the owner of Jimba Safaris and the PH you contracted to accompany you - bailing out of your hunt in the penultimate moments before your hunt. Unless he, or someone in his family, was sick and dying, he should have honored his agreement and served as your PH no matter how inconvenient. Having to attend a meeting – unless it was to arrange for a kidney transplant – is entirely unacceptable. That he promised to be there for part of your hunt and failed to show up at all is even more telling of his alleged professionalism. Imagine if you had notified Jimba Safaris (or Adam Clements Safaris) that a last minute meeting came up and you couldn't make it to the hunt. Undoubtedly you would have been greeted with a substantial penalty levied against your deposit. Why doesn't it work the other way around? Why shouldn't Jimba Safaris pay a penalty for failing to perform in accordance with your contract?

The bottom line is that Jimba Safaris breached that contract before you ever showed up, leaving you with little recourse inasmuch as you had already taken time from work, paid for airline tickets, etc. For that breach alone you should have been provided a substantial discount.

Kpete

I sorta disagree with you on the substitution of a PH.

I was slated to have Rory Muil as my PH but when I showed up at the airport in Harare George Parkin was there with a company rep. I was told that Rory was unavailable(due to a bout of malaria) and George would be my PH.

I had a great hunt and George did a great job. Over the course of the hunt I figured out that Rory did not have Malaria, but had been held over by a client and was in need of some R&R(I overheard several conversations).

Bottom line: I had a great hunt with a hungry replacement PH. As great as I know Rory is, I would not have wanted to have him as a PH if his mind was somewhere else.

It is clear that All Gone's PH won't be in this business long.

And to stir more "stuff".

It is clear that there are questions regarding Wayne Dietrechsen's PH license situation. I would like to know if Tim Lamprecht was the "PH of record" on the hunts Wayne was conducting.

My point: I would be willing to bet that Tim was not Wayne's "right hand man", but was rather an unemployed PH who Wayne used when needed(for his license) then Wayne decided to let Tim run the hunt with a newbie client(All Gone).

quote:

Originally posted by KPete:
As you undoubtedly have learned, the AR membership is a fiercely opinionated body that would readily debate the rising of the sun tomorrow; yet there is by my reading a unanimity of opinion that you paid for a trophy elephant that was never delivered.

Kim,

Please don't tell me you're one of those narrow minded "the sun rises every day" fools!!!

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by txlonghorn:
Brett,
Wasn't All Gone paying for ACST's expertise to know problems with the outfitter? Is Adam going to tell All Gone the food is great but the PH can't tell a baby elephant from a hole in the ground or he's prone to get pissed at a buffalo and have you shoot a baby elephant. In this case Adam failed in every angle you look at it.

Mark still haven't explain why it was necessary to name All Gone in this thread and as stated earlier. Adam is in a first world country but choose not engage and the longer he waits the worse it's going to get.

I'm not sure what your point is. I agree the agent needs to give full discloser. When you consider that the PH was switched on him perhaps Adam didn't know about the PH. As for Adam I quite agree with Mark it's All Gone's decission to keep us up to date. Adam hardly needs to post a minute by minute report or have the situation satisfied by noon on the four day of the thread so sayth the lord of AR......can I get an Amen!!!

I'm sure from All Gone's point it would be nice to even hear nothing yet, but I'm still working on it now and again. As for Mark I'll continue to give him a pass on the name thing. I've made a few less than optimal decisions in my life. I shall not cast the first stone........and Mark picked his stone back up so kudos to him.

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:

quote:

Originally posted by KPete:
As you undoubtedly have learned, the AR membership is a fiercely opinionated body that would readily debate the rising of the sun tomorrow; yet there is by my reading a unanimity of opinion that you paid for a trophy elephant that was never delivered.

Kim,

Please don't tell me you're one of those narrow minded "the sun rises every day" fools!!!

Brett

Now Brett, just because you choose to live above the Arctic Circle where the sun really won't rise tomorrow, doesn't mean that it won't for the rest of us.

By the way, I Google Earthed your house and was wondering if you'd checked out your back door lately ...

quote:

Originally posted by txlonghorn:
Brett,
Wasn't All Gone paying for ACST's expertise to know problems with the outfitter? Is Adam going to tell All Gone the food is great but the PH can't tell a baby elephant from a hole in the ground or he's prone to get pissed at a buffalo and have you shoot a baby elephant. In this case Adam failed in every angle you look at it.

Mark still haven't explain why it was necessary to name All Gone in this thread and as stated earlier. Adam is in a first world country but choose not engage and the longer he waits the worse it's going to get.

The original PH was to be Wayne Dietrechsen. That is the PH that the agent promoted to the client. Tim Lamprecht was a substitute Ph selected by Wayne the outfitter (not the agent) and possibly out of the booking agent's control! Nowhere does AG mention that ACST knew of the Ph swap (he mentiones Wayne emailed him directly?)or had any info on Tim's abilities or lack thereof. All the anger and calls for retribution are towards the agent while I see more fault on the outfitter who apparently swapped the PH for the hunt and provided an obvously sub-par elephant PH.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
"...Mark and Adam


Also may I add that ANY controversy regarding a hunt which gets posted here, and the final outcome is not cleared up, leaves a bad taste regarding the reputation of the both the outfitter and and client.

Some hunters DO encounter problems, with either the booking agent or the PH, sometimes both, and never post it on a public forum.

Another sideways hunt from Adam Clements. Who would have thought...?

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:

quote:

Originally posted by txlonghorn:
Brett,
Wasn't All Gone paying for ACST's expertise to know problems with the outfitter? Is Adam going to tell All Gone the food is great but the PH can't tell a baby elephant from a hole in the ground or he's prone to get pissed at a buffalo and have you shoot a baby elephant. In this case Adam failed in every angle you look at it.

Mark still haven't explain why it was necessary to name All Gone in this thread and as stated earlier. Adam is in a first world country but choose not engage and the longer he waits the worse it's going to get.

The original PH was to be Wayne Dietrechsen. That is the PH that the agent promoted to the client. Tim Lamprecht was a substitute Ph selected by Wayne the outfitter (not the agent) and possibly out of the booking agent's control! Nowhere does AG mention that ACST knew of the Ph swap (he mentiones Wayne emailed him directly?)or had any info on Tim's abilities or lack thereof. All the anger and calls for retribution are towards the agent while I see more fault on the outfitter who apparently swapped the PH for the hunt and provided an obvously sub-par elephant PH.

Agreed, but looking at the hunt report and if we exclude the elephant I would say that the hunt was very successful. Whilst there seems to be a clash of characters I personally think that All Gone (and note he is a first timer) was a bit too quick to judge the PH's qualities and decisions. We do many things in the bush which the client may ponder but ultimately there is a reason and the report proves the PH got him onto very good animals?

I would have like to seen more about the camp, game, location, staff etc in the report rather than just the woes.

The elephant was poor to say the least as so is Adams response.

Wow! The elephant is most certainly shocking. Is there more to the story? Was the elephant injured or ill? I once shot one about the same size that was severely injured. It was not however shot as an exportable trophy.



Perhaps I am wrong. Does anyone see Mark's original post as a "warning" rather than intimidation? The warning being that this is in Zimbabwe where his trophies are. The fact of the matter is that AG could lose his trophies if WD really wanted to do a number on him. As a practical matter there isn't much that can be done about it should they elect take such action.

The fact of the matter is that AG could lose his trophies if WD really wanted to do a number on him. As a practical matter there isn't much that can be done about it should they elect take such action.

Hello All Gone

Some 10 years ago in Cameroun I was in a very same situation as you. The PH ordered me to shoot and down goes the female elephant that should have been an bull. To cut a long story short. The French agent together with the outfitter gave med a new full bag hunt the year after.

I hope your agent does the right thing.


Good hunting

Carl Frederik

quote:

Originally posted by KPete:

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:

quote:

Originally posted by KPete:
As you undoubtedly have learned, the AR membership is a fiercely opinionated body that would readily debate the rising of the sun tomorrow; yet there is by my reading a unanimity of opinion that you paid for a trophy elephant that was never delivered.

Kim,

Please don't tell me you're one of those narrow minded "the sun rises every day" fools!!!

Brett

Now Brett, just because you choose to live above the Arctic Circle where the sun really won't rise tomorrow, doesn't mean that it won't for the rest of us.

By the way, I Google Earthed your house and was wondering if you'd checked out your back door lately ...

That's why people have anonymus screen names!!!

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:

quote:

Originally posted by KPete:

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:

quote:

Originally posted by KPete:
As you undoubtedly have learned, the AR membership is a fiercely opinionated body that would readily debate the rising of the sun tomorrow; yet there is by my reading a unanimity of opinion that you paid for a trophy elephant that was never delivered.

Kim,

Please don't tell me you're one of those narrow minded "the sun rises every day" fools!!!

Brett

Now Brett, just because you choose to live above the Arctic Circle where the sun really won't rise tomorrow, doesn't mean that it won't for the rest of us.

By the way, I Google Earthed your house and was wondering if you'd checked out your back door lately ...

That's why people have anonymus screen names!!!

Brett

You'd have more money for a new double if you stopped leaving all the lights on.

Does Tim Lamprecht have any relatives in the safari business? the name sounds familiar...

I am surprised that the government authorities who regulate hunting have not been all over this matter and pulled up the outfitter & the PH for shooting a juvenile elephant. Do they not have any standards and controls?

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Does Tim Lamprecht have any relatives in the safari business? the name sounds familiar...

Leon?

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Does Tim Lamprecht have any relatives in the safari business? the name sounds familiar...

The surname "Lamprecht" is common in Namibia. I believe the president of their PH association was a Mr. Lamprecht at one time.

I doubt there is any relationship.

quote:

I am surprised that the government authorities who regulate hunting have not been all over this matter and pulled up the outfitter & the PH for shooting a juvenile elephant. Do they not have any standards and controls?

It is quite likely that under the previous administration, (colonial) action would have been taken against the PH, possibly in the form of a fine and or suspension of license - since then, times have changed

quote:

Originally posted by safari-lawyer:

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Does Tim Lamprecht have any relatives in the safari business? the name sounds familiar...

Leon?

I know Leon Lamprecht fairly well and I don't believe they are kin.

I talked with Adam yesterday and we had a good 45 min. discussion. Then he e-mailed me what he and Wayne were willing to do along with a few remarks that i still need to discuss with him.
This is the break down of what they offered.

All the money has been paid to Wayne, including the trophy fees.

Wayne has offered no refund period, but has offered me another 10 day ele hunt for 12,500
all inclusive, which normal price would be 20,500. Adam said that he would provide one of his PH's if i was not comfortable hunting with
Wayne. Wayne told Adam that he wanted to contact me himself. For what i do not know yet. I am still waiting for Wayne to contact me.

Adam is going to refund me his commission. And is going to go above and beyond and credit me 5000 towards any hunt in Tanzania with his companies there.

Adam is not happy with me for bringing this to AR. I can not blame him for that. But i didn't know where else i could go to find out what to do in this situation.

I still have many questions, the main one being if Adam really was trying to get me a refund why did he send Wayne the 10,000 then ask for it back. I guess you can come to your own conclusion on that one.

Richard

quote:

Wayne has offered no refund period, but has offered me another 10 day ele hunt for 12,500

Looks like Wayne is willing to add some insult to the injury!
I'm sure you're just jumping with enthusiasm to get back over there with that outfitter.

IMO,take your money elsewhere.
There are too many good companies in Africa to waste your time and money on them.

I feel like i should let you know that in a previous post i stated that Adam said he had a few issues with Jimba. That was incorrect, the complaints were with PH Tim L. not Jimba.

After that, Adam had an agreement with WD that his clients would only have him {WD} as a PH.

I was not aware of this until yesterday.

Which brings up another big question.

Why didn't Adam tell me this before the hunt so i would have known to call him right away when i found out that WD was not going to be my PH.

I feel that Adam is turning this on me as being my fault that i didn't call as soon as i knew this. How the hell was i supposed know all this was going on with an outfitter that he endorsed and was sending me with.

Is this a question i should have asked? How could i possibly ask all the questions to cover every possible scenario?

Adam also wanted to know why i didn't call as soon as the ele was shot so he could jump in and fix things right away. Was i supposed to ask Tim if i could use his phone so i could call Adam and tell him that Tim just told me to shoot a little ele? Like anyone was going to believe me over the PH until they seen pics.

Sorry for the rant and the negitvity but this whole thing really stinks. I just needed to let off some steam!

AG

i have a feeling Jimba Safaris may be in for a bit of trouble with their future bookings- at least with this crowd! unless of course an elephant calf is on your trophy list

Bwana,

If I could hunt elephant for 10 days all in with Brain Van Blerk or Wayne Clark for $12,500 I'd be all over it. All Gone does not even need to see Wayne Dietrichson. What All Gone didn't say is that this is the price Forestry charges for the hunt and Adam would be paying the PH's daily fees out of pocket for the hunt.

Mark

Plainly and clearly inform all concerned that you decline the offer of a "discounted" hunt and demand a full monetary refund. Do this often and emphatically, every time you communicate with any of the concerned parties. Be clear about what your expectations are, as there is no way to make this mess right.

You have nothing to explain regarding your actions or inactions involved in this deplorable incident. It is entirely "their" fault and you need to maintain that position.

Sorry Mark, but these guys don't deserve a second chance. Take another look at that dead Ele calf!

If this is true, then Adam Clements seems to be doing the right think.

The issue about the outfitter not refunding the trophy fee really sucks.

I think the outfitter has been less than fair

1 In deputising a PH that he had agreed not to use with the booking agent's clients
2 Not providing the client with good serive - by not turning up as the PH as promised
3 By accepting full payment for a very poor animal & not setting the matter right.

I hope I never face such a situation during my first safari hopefully in 2013.

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Bwana,

If I could hunt elephant for 10 days all in with Brain Van Blerk or Wayne Clark for $12,500 I'd be all over it. All Gone does not even need to see Wayne Dietrichson. What All Gone didn't say is that this is the price Forestry charges for the hunt and Adam would be paying the PH's daily fees out of pocket for the hunt.

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:


I hope I never face such a situation during my first safari hopefully in 2013.

You won't, if you do your research here on AR. Compare the elephants shot recently by clients of Zambezi Hunters, CMS, Barry Style, Nixon Dzingai etc to this one...

I agree that it appears Adam Clements is trying to sort this out to the best of his ability, and I never expected anything less. The shooting of this elephant was not the fault of Adam Clements but he is taking responsibility as any agent worth his salt would. Good man.

I need to book through an agent why

quote:

Originally posted by JBoutfishn:
I need to book through an agent why

Well said and to the point.