I think all parties involved are guilty of level of dishonesty.
That is more than enough for me to not want anything to do with any of them.
Adam, you need to strike this operation from your books or you are just as guilty.

All gone, you are not innocent here and have smeared your own name. You should have paid for the buff in full as a gentleman would. This is a moral issue and has stuff all to do with being a first timer.

You and that good for nothing PH are not far apart in my book

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:
So to summarize the hunt>
- The Ph chased down and cut-off the kudu and appears to have allowed AG to shoot the kudu from the vehicle
- The PH colluded with AG to bribe the game scout for the wounded and lost buff
- The PH had the client shoot the bushbuck form the boat which is illegal
- Finally, the PH made AG shoot a juvenile elephant

How any one places blame on all this on ACST is beyond me! IMHO, ACST would do good to simply refund his commission and strike off of his good business list both client and outfitter.

WD on the other hand, needs to refund the client's safari in full and report TL to the authorities to have his license withdrawn.

+1

How sad on all accounts......

I sure don't want your job Adam!

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
On second thought, bring two ropes, we need one for the lawyers too!

Now your talking!

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:
So to summarize the hunt>
- The Ph chased down and cut-off the kudu and appears to have allowed AG to shoot the kudu from the vehicle
- The PH colluded with AG to bribe the game scout for the wounded and lost buff
- The PH had the client shoot the bushbuck form the boat which is illegal
- Finally, the PH made AG shoot a juvenile elephant

How any one places blame on all this on ACST is beyond me! IMHO, ACST would do good to simply refund his commission and strike off of his good business list both client and outfitter.

WD on the other hand, needs to refund the client's safari in full and report TL to the authorities to have his license withdrawn.

My only concern with ACST was to be associated with WD & TL to begin with or to ever let a client to be involved such a shoddy outfit. I am sure Adam will remove hisself...but if he is the agent for the client...he owes (and apparently is trying to give) the client all of the help he can lend to rectify.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:
So to summarize the hunt>
- The Ph chased down and cut-off the kudu and appears to have allowed AG to shoot the kudu from the vehicle
- The PH colluded with AG to bribe the game scout for the wounded and lost buff
- The PH had the client shoot the bushbuck form the boat which is illegal
- Finally, the PH made AG shoot a juvenile elephant

How any one places blame on all this on ACST is beyond me! IMHO, ACST would do good to simply refund his commission and strike off of his good business list both client and outfitter.

WD on the other hand, needs to refund the client's safari in full and report TL to the authorities to have his license withdrawn.

My only concern with ACST was to be associated with WD & TL to begin with or to ever let a client to be involved such a shoddy outfit. I am sure Adam will remove hisself...but if he is the agent for the client...he owes (and apparently is trying to give) the client all of the help he can lend to rectify.

I think you are stating the obvious. If the booking agent's default recourse is to refund commissions when things go bad, why use a booking agent? Aren't we using one to vet out the bad operators?

I have been reading this thread for some time with interest. No surprize that AAZ and a few others would start making excuses for truly inexcusable behavior in Zim. It was only a matter of time before someone started dragging the hunter through the mud. I'm only surprised it took so many pages. The post by GeorgeS contains more knowledge than most will recognize.

I've had my name and reputaion dragged through the AR mud for simply not responding to false and maliscious accusations. The crazy accusations and wild speculation left me really wondering about many posters on this site. People fabricate e-mails, invent fictitious animals shot and even unknown safaris areas and unlicensed PH's. Nobody really cares because it makes for great entertainment. And a few real assholes on the board seem to go on a crusade for their own sanctimonious benefit.

Trial by internet does nothing to uncover the whole truth. People that were never present make up their minds based on a few paragraphs, or on how their "friend" is perceived. I understand that ACS and the safari companies involved have their reputation at stake. Most people think the hunter puts nothing at risk in these arguements, but that is far from the truth. All Gone has now admitted that serveral parts of his safari were conducted illegally. He bears considerable risk should he decide to import trophies from this hunt. The Lacey Act is far reaching and carries serious consequences. I truly sympathize with his current situation.

There are some quality outfits in Zimbabwe, and I enjoy hunting there as often as I can. There is no excuse for that elephant, or excuse for shooting from the boat, etc.... It wasn't long ago that I was reading a thread that insisted that it was impossible for any Zim PH to knowing instruct his client to shoot a bull under 15#. A visiting hunter has to assume his PH knows the basic hunting laws. When he finds out the PH either didn't care or was too concerned about the money to follow the law he has very little recourse.

There is a reason most people leave out the negative details about their hunts. By definition (on this board), the problems were all the clients fault, and the success all attributable to the PH. PH's are gods, don't you know.... I used to post full hunt reports on all my trips. I was taken to task more than once for posting even one negative detail in a hunt report that was generally glowing. Unless you varnish the truth in your hunt report then you will undoubtedly recieve some criticism.
Simply a fact of life on this board. And if you dare to remain silent and not address the next wild accusation, well then, you obviously must be guilty. It won't be long before we hear how this hunter was involved in late night assignations with the local ethnic women or was wearing womens clothing except for in the pictures. Nothing suprises me anymore...

My recommendation is to work this out with the agent and outfitter in private and reach the best deal you can live with. Then move on. No matter how much you kick yourself for not seeing the signs, or blame the PH / outfitter, the hunt is over. Life is short. Move on and resolve to learn from the experience. And forget about the pot-stirrers on the board. They really don't mean anything.
Bill

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:
So to summarize the hunt>
- The Ph chased down and cut-off the kudu and appears to have allowed AG to shoot the kudu from the vehicle
- The PH colluded with AG to bribe the game scout for the wounded and lost buff
- The PH had the client shoot the bushbuck form the boat which is illegal
- Finally, the PH made AG shoot a juvenile elephant

How any one places blame on all this on ACST is beyond me! IMHO, ACST would do good to simply refund his commission and strike off of his good business list both client and outfitter.

WD on the other hand, needs to refund the client's safari in full and report TL to the authorities to have his license withdrawn.

My only concern with ACST was to be associated with WD & TL to begin with or to ever let a client to be involved such a shoddy outfit. I am sure Adam will remove hisself...but if he is the agent for the client...he owes (and apparently is trying to give) the client all of the help he can lend to rectify.

I think you are stating the obvious. If the booking agent's default recourse is to refund commissions when things go bad, why use a booking agent? Aren't we using one to vet out the bad operators?

AAZW,

I concur.

IMHO this attorney’s involvement is doing more to hurt Adams reputation than anything.

quote:

Originally posted by llamapacker:
I have been reading this thread for some time with interest. No surprize that AAZ and a few others would start making excuses for truly inexcusable behavior in Zim. It was only a matter of time before someone started dragging the hunter through the mud. I'm only surprised it took so many pages. The post by GeorgeS contains more knowledge than most will recognize.

I've had my name and reputaion dragged through the AR mud for simply not responding to false and maliscious accusations. The crazy accusations and wild speculation left me really wondering about many posters on this site. People fabricate e-mails, invent fictitious animals shot and even unknown safaris areas and unlicensed PH's. Nobody really cares because it makes for great entertainment. And a few real assholes on the board seem to go on a crusade for their own sanctimonious benefit.

Trial by internet does nothing to uncover the whole truth. People that were never present make up their minds based on a few paragraphs, or on how their "friend" is perceived. I understand that ACS and the safari companies involved have their reputation at stake. Most people think the hunter puts nothing at risk in these arguements, but that is far from the truth. All Gone has now admitted that serveral parts of his safari were conducted illegally. He bears considerable risk should he decide to import trophies from this hunt. The Lacey Act is far reaching and carries serious consequences. I truly sympathize with his current situation.

There are some quality outfits in Zimbabwe, and I enjoy hunting there as often as I can. There is no excuse for that elephant, or excuse for shooting from the boat, etc.... It wasn't long ago that I was reading a thread that insisted that it was impossible for any Zim PH to knowing instruct his client to shoot a bull under 15#. A visiting hunter has to assume his PH knows the basic hunting laws. When he finds out the PH either didn't care or was too concerned about the money to follow the law he has very little recourse.

There is a reason most people leave out the negative details about their hunts. By definition (on this board), the problems were all the clients fault, and the success all attributable to the PH. PH's are gods, don't you know.... I used to post full hunt reports on all my trips. I was taken to task more than once for posting even one negative detail in a hunt report that was generally glowing. Unless you varnish the truth in your hunt report then you will undoubtedly recieve some criticism.
Simply a fact of life on this board. And if you dare to remain silent and not address the next wild accusation, well then, you obviously must be guilty. It won't be long before we hear how this hunter was involved in late night assignations with the local ethnic women or was wearing womens clothing except for in the pictures. Nothing suprises me anymore...

My recommendation is to work this out with the agent and outfitter in private and reach the best deal you can live with. Then move on. No matter how much you kick yourself for not seeing the signs, or blame the PH / outfitter, the hunt is over. Life is short. Move on and resolve to learn from the experience. And forget about the pot-stirrers on the board. They really don't mean anything.
Bill

Llamapacker:

You act as if you are a well respected member; I can't think of anyone more despised.

You really don't want us dredging up your sorry past, do you?

Just put down the shovel and walk away...you are so lucky AR is not set up for Google searches, or your name really would be mud. Also lucky no one wrote a letter to the University of Utah. Say, whatever happened to that fictitious character you invented to defend yourself? He must have died suddenly of a heart attack.

The fact is lots of folks have had fabulous safaris with Nixon. I just bought a ticket to Tanzania today for a hunt in Jan, but I had serious reservations about just walking away from my deposit and booking with Nixon.

And just where do I make excuses for anyone?

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:
So to summarize the hunt>
- The Ph chased down and cut-off the kudu and appears to have allowed AG to shoot the kudu from the vehicle
- The PH colluded with AG to bribe the game scout for the wounded and lost buff
- The PH had the client shoot the bushbuck form the boat which is illegal
- Finally, the PH made AG shoot a juvenile elephant

How any one places blame on all this on ACST is beyond me! IMHO, ACST would do good to simply refund his commission and strike off of his good business list both client and outfitter.

WD on the other hand, needs to refund the client's safari in full and report TL to the authorities to have his license withdrawn.

My only concern with ACST was to be associated with WD & TL to begin with or to ever let a client to be involved such a shoddy outfit. I am sure Adam will remove hisself...but if he is the agent for the client...he owes (and apparently is trying to give) the client all of the help he can lend to rectify.

I think you are stating the obvious. If the booking agent's default recourse is to refund commissions when things go bad, why use a booking agent? Aren't we using one to vet out the bad operators?

I use one for advice and to hold my trophy money in "escrow" until word from me verifying the animals taken.

I consider the latter of those two the most important because I do not want to travel with $20,000+ dollars even in traveler's checks. Also, I ask the agent to make the outfitter aware that $XXXX amount is sitting here in the agents hands awaiting verification of trophies taken BY ME BEFORE the money is sent.

That's what I want from an agent.

I will be the first to admit that i have never been accused of being the smartest person in the world. I have made some big mistakes in my life and the buff one is right up there at the top of the list. When givin the choice of paying 300 or 3000 i took the easy road.

It looked to me like it was standard operating procedure going on as no one even batted an eye when it was brought up.

That was a huge mistake. I admit it, I did it. I am not blaming anyone but myself for it. I am sorry it happened.

I'm betting that a lot of you have made some mistakes before also. Maybe not like the one i have made and surly not put it out here for the world to see as i have also done.

I have never asked for sympathy nor do i expect any. I asked for suggestions and that is what i got and then some.

I would like to apoligize for the corruption comment about Zim. I did not intend to make it sound like it was the PH's or Safari Co. that were corrupt. I was refering to the goverment side as i have heard some storys.
AG

I am going to state my position simply because certain people have asked me to, although I do not believe in solving ongoing issues by public internet or public opinions. I would have preferred this issue be solved first in private and then AG could state his hunt report with all the facts including the final outcome at once. I do believe it is good for any hunter to post a bad report on any hunt that they think was not good, but I also think it is prudent to make sure that when a bad report is made, that all the facts are listed and the final outcome has been determined one way or the other. I have tried to keep this matter private and tried to come up with a good solution even with the mud slinging going on and with some posters who have nothing better to do than jump on the misfortune of others. So, here are the facts from me and my position so there is no more assumptions as to who, what, how or where I stand. You want the details, so here they are since this has turned into a public affair.

Richard was booked on this hunt in the Sij area which I have personally hunted myself several times in the past and I know for a fact the area does produce a good safari. I offered this area to clients who wanted an option on a hunt where they could get an affordable hunt. This area is not the easiest area to hunt and Richard and I discussed all of the details pros and cons of the area prior to his booking the safari. The area does not produce “big” elephants and a client should expect 25-40 pounds on average. Leopard is good in area and Buffalo are there, but tough hunting and Richard was very happy with this option. Everything was booked and should have gone smoothly and there should not have been any problems! Because some of the past clients who had hunted with Tim complained about him being lazy and moody, I made it clear to Wayne that he would need to be the PH with any of my clients and never wanted Tim around my clients.

Richard returned from his hunt and told me that he had a good hunt and enjoyed the experience, but thought that his elephant was small and he thought Tim had made a mistake. I asked him why Tim was there, and he then told me that Wayne had e-mailed him prior to his safari and said he would not be able to be the PH. I asked why he had not informed me of this before he left, so I could have put my foot down and either forced Wayne to do the hunt, or find another PH to do the hunt? He had no answer and did not know why he did not inform me of this. I asked him to e-mail pictures, which he did. As soon as I saw the pictures I was furious about the elephant and shot an e-mail to Wayne asking him what happened, why it happened, why he did not do the hunt, and that he better be in the process of firing Tim right away. I was very angry and not acceptable for any PH to allow this type of mistake to happen. We all make mistakes, but this was one that was preventable and should not have been made.

I then talked to Richard on the phone and apologized for the elephant and explained that should have never happened. Keep in mind I was still blindsided by the fact that he had hunted with Tim without my knowledge. I asked Richard if there was anything else that went wrong and besides the elephant how was the rest of the safari? He then mentioned that he thought Tim was moody, lazy, was not happy with the baiting or checking of baits, but that he was very happy with his leopard, bushbuck and kudu. Richards main concern at this time was his trophies and wanted me to make sure that his trophies were safe and would be shipped correctly and that nothing would happen to them. I had advised Richard before his safari to use a particular taxidermist in Bulawayo for his dipping & packing etc that I knew was trust worthy, had used before and was recommend by other PH’s in Bulawayo. Richard said that the trophies had been picked up and sent to another taxidermists while he was there in camp and was now worried about his trophies. I told him not to worry that both Jamie and myself would get onto it right away and make sure his trophies were fine and would be shipped with no problems to the best of our abilities. We got onto the matter with the trophies and made sure all was in order. I was still waiting on a reply from Wayne, so I could talk to him. My accounting office did what it does with every outfitter and once they got the final trophy fee bill from the outfitter, they wired the money for the trophy fees listed in order for there not to be any delay in the govt payment and trophy process from our side. Richard still had some money left over on his trophy fee credit and when my office sent him his final invoice and stated they were going to refund him his remaining credit, he asked my office not to send him any money refund as he did not want it to look like he was accepting a refund from us and for us to hold the money and not to send the $1,500 tip that he was going to give Tim until his trophies arrived. Did not make sense to us so they held his credit until further notified.

A few days later, Richard contacted me again and asked if Wayne would be willing to refund his trophy fee for the elephant. I told Richard that I would get with Wayne and do everything I can to see what I could do about the elephant and see if I can get a refund and that it would be a hard job and long process and to be patient with me while I did my best in coming up with a solution. I explained that there would be many excuses made as there is always two sides to a story, but will do my best and get back to him once I had some answers.

I finally got to speak with Wayne on the phone and we went over everything of the safari. I made sure that the trophies were in good shape and would be handled properly and shipped out asap. We discussed the elephant and Wayne was mad about it as well and I asked him if he would refund the trophy fee for the elephant to make this right for Richard on his part. He said he would think about it and he wanted to talk to Tim in detail to get his side of the story and find out what happened and would get back to me. Richard kept calling me very often checking in and asking if I had gotten anything for him. I told Richard I was working on it and thought I would get something worked out, but I needed time and patience. If I was not in the office, then Jamie would answer him and advise I was traveling and would get back to him when I could.

Now, in the mean time without my knowledge at first Richard decided to go to the public and ask for suggestions, where things went down hill and thanks to many of you posters who seem to think you know everything and know how to handle others issues, you jumped right into the boat and started smearing names without any full story or any final conclusion. Why would Richard need suggestions from the public internet who cannot help anything when he knew I was in the process of trying to work something out is beyond me. But because of this now and his post going like a wildfire with everyone putting in their jabs. Well Wayne saw all of this on AR even before I did and when I talked to Wayne again on the phone thinking I was going to get a refund for Richard, everything had changed and he was now angry due to the smearing on AR and was not willing to give any cash refund and would only offer a repeat hunt. He also just then informed me that he had just found out from Tim that there was a wounded and lost Buffalo in the mix now and why was Richard not honest about this? I told Wayne that Richard had not said anything to me about a buffalo at all and I would find out his story. Wayne then gave me Tims side of the story from the safari which has already been mentioned, but of no interest to me really as my concern was to try and solve the issue at hand and try to get something back for Richard.

I called Richard up and asked what the story was on a Buffalo? He said yes he had wounded and lost a buffalo and did not know why he had not told me of it and that he had bribed the game scout $300 and thought not to mention it again. I told him that this new news caused a second spanner in the spokes and it kept getting harder for me to negotiate any type of deal. Wayne was by now in no mood to deal much or listen to any reason from me. So I had no choice but to offer Richard what Wayne’s offer was at this time. I do not have the power to force any outfitter to make their own decisions or what to do, and in this case my only power and reasoning was gone due to the smearing on AR and the hiding the Buffalo. Keep in mind I still have to be polite and professional as I still have Richard’s trophies that need to be shipped.

I feel terrible for Richard and that this safari went so wrong in so many different ways without me knowing anything until his return when I was blindsided by so many different issues. It is very misfortunate that any of this happened and hope that Wayne takes my advice and fires Tim.

Outcome as it is now: It has already been mentioned what was offered by Wayne which is a repeat hunt for $12,500 all inclusive. Whether Richard takes this or not is his decision, but I have done everything I can with Wayne on this. Because of everything said on AR and the hidden buff story, my hands are now tied with Wayne as he is done negotiating.

It has also been mentioned what I have personally offered which is my commission of $1,800, $5,000 credit for a TZ safari if he so wishes, if he wants to do the repeat safari, I will pay out of my pocket the PH fees for another PH. Even after I found out about the Buffalo and was suppose to send that money as trophy fee, I did not and returning the $3,000 to Richard. That is $4,800 in cash I am returning, plus we are returning the $1,500 cash that he wanted to tip Tim with (which he never asked to be refunded), plus the offer of credit for $5,000. I do not see what more I personally can do with the way the situation has turned out which was all out of my control and should have never happened in the first place. My office sent Richard a check for $9,632 refund and he still has the option of using $5,000 credit toward another safari in TZ. I am sure some of you will continue to question and judge. The only 2 reasons I was not able to negotiate any further with Wayne was because of this posting and because of the secret buffalo, and I do not think it is fair to question why I did not do more! Thanks to these 2 reasons my hands got tied very quickly. Richard made the decision to go public before I had time to complete any conclusion and he was not straight with me about the Buffalo. How do I fight for a client when I get blindsided and the public jury can't wait to hear the final conclusion before they start smearing and throwing accusations? That is all from me and will not post again publicly on this matter as the facts are above and nothing else to debate.

quote:

Originally posted by Adam Clements:
...That is all from me and will not post again publicly on this matter as the facts are above and nothing else to debate.

Thorough. Enlightening. Well-stated.
Good on you Mr. Clements.

Cheers,

Brian

I think that is a very stand-up response Adam. Giving up your commission is the right response and offering to pay for a PH for a return hunt or a $5,000 discount on a Tanzania hunt is above and beyond.

It is now up to Wayne to refund the elephant trophy fee, less the buffalo trophy fee, to make things right. By doing this and firing Tim, his safari company could come through this OK.

quote:

Originally posted by Allout:

quote:

Originally posted by Adam Clements:
...That is all from me and will not post again publicly on this matter as the facts are above and nothing else to debate.

Thorough. Enlightening. Well-stated.
Good on you Mr. Clements.

Cheers,

Brian

+1

Well stated Adam. It says a lot about your character.

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:
I have a feeling that this situation started out bad and will only get worse.

I hate to say "I told you so"................

Well done Adam.

It is obvious that there were two victims in all of this: All Gone and Adam Clements Tracking Safaris. Adam, your actions on behalf of your client were and are commendable, as is your illuminating post.

This cannot be, the audience on Who Wants to be a Millionaire always gets it right. I am so confused.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
This cannot be, the audience on Who Wants to be a Millionaire always gets it right. I am so confused.

They did get it right. And we did it without lawyers.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
This cannot be, the audience on Who Wants to be a Millionaire always gets it right. I am so confused.

They did get it right. And we did it without lawyers.

And the best part is the client got it sorted out VERY quickly.

I wonder how long this would have dragged on if it wasn't made public?

In hearing of most of the controversies like this, the threat of going public seems to be the best way to resolve it quickly.

Adam,

Well done.

What you have done and offered in this case goes far beyond your involvemnt in this sad fiasco.

You certainly were not to blame for what had happened.

And if Wayne thinks he can get away with this sort of joke by making an excuse because it was posted on a public forum, he is doing more damage to his own reputation than has become obvious from past reports on his operation.

I think Allgone is absolutely right to refuse to hunt with Wayne again.

All one has to do is a Google search, and he will find all sorts of controversies Wayne in the past.

quote:

Originally posted by Adam Clements:
Richard returned from his hunt and told me that he had a good hunt and enjoyed the experience, but thought that his elephant was small and he thought Tim had made a mistake......As soon as I saw the pictures I was furious about the elephant and shot an e-mail to Wayne asking him what happened, why it happened, why he did not do the hunt, and that he better be in the process of firing Tim right away. I was very angry and not acceptable for any PH to allow this type of mistake to happen.......I then talked to Richard on the phone and apologized for the elephant and explained that should have never happened.........I was still waiting on a reply from Wayne, so I could talk to him. My accounting office did what it does with every outfitter and once they got the final trophy fee bill from the outfitter, they wired the money for the trophy fees listed in order for there not to be any delay in the govt payment and trophy process from our side............A few days later, Richard contacted me again and asked if Wayne would be willing to refund his trophy fee for the elephant...........Well Wayne saw all of this on AR even before I did and when I talked to Wayne again on the phone thinking I was going to get a refund for Richard, everything had changed and he was now angry due to the smearing on AR and was not willing to give any cash refund and would only offer a repeat hunt.........

Adam,

I think that's a thoughtful post and over all I feel for you being in a hard position. Considering that Wayne had the money and your negotiating power was diminished I'd say you came up with a very generous offer and out of your pocket no less which speaks well of you. I still have a question/remaining thought on this. Please take this as friendly constructive criticism rather than slinging mud becuase I am NOT. I think you're a good guy and run a good outfit. I'm just a little puzzled about this:

Why did Wayne get all the money (including the full elephant trophy fee) imediately sent to him when you had seen the elephant yourself, knew there was a serious problem, and were waiting to speak to Wayne about the issue? I think it's pretty obvious that it would be exponentially harder to ever get a cash refund if the money was paid. I understand that Richard asked for the refund after it was sent, but I'm just wondering if Richard was consulted about releasing the funds or if you had considered that Richard deserved some sort of discount/refund because of the "unacceptable mistake" as you put it? I ask this because one of the main reasons I hear for using a booking agent is the safety said service provides for your money. If the booking agent sends the money in full before the hunt or after the hunt and before everything is confirmed by their client as ok then they aren't really protecting the client's money. And if their is a problem and you send the money anyway how is that an asset to Richard or any client me included? Was this an issue where accounting sent it out by mistake without your knowledge? I understand fees must be paid to the government asap, but does that mean all the money has to be sent immediately even when there's a large problem like this one? When do you release the money? How does this work? Again I hope you will take this as constructive criticism/a honest question rather than a poke in the eye which is NOT how I intend it. Thanks.

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
And if Wayne thinks he can get away with this sort of joke by making an excuse because it was posted on a public forum, he is doing more damage to his own reputation than has become obvious from past reports on his operation.

+1

Plus.....
.....hiring an incompitent PH
.....breaking his promise to PH Richard
.....swithing to a PH he had promised Adam would not be near his clients
.....not telling Adam about the PH change either
.....and yes not giving a refund


Brett

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
This cannot be, the audience on Who Wants to be a Millionaire always gets it right. I am so confused.

They did get it right. And we did it without lawyers.

"We", you have got to be kidding me. All most folks did on this thread was to pass judgment with incomplete and inconsistent facts. The only reason this was successfully resolved -- and we have yet to hear that the client views that it was successfully resolved, the people declaring success are all the folks that were previously prepared to tar and feather Adam -- was because Adam stepped up to the plate, something he was already doing apparently well before this thread was even started. Also sounds to me like this thread resulted in a suboptimal resolution of the matter compared to what Adam felt he could have accomplished if given the time to work the problem. If you call that success, there is less hope for you than I thought.

Brett,

Adam told me he forgot to tell accounting to not send the ele TF. It was an honest mistake.
That was my main question for Adam the whole time. Why was i not notified before the TF was sent? I found this out a couple of days ago.

AG

quote:

Originally posted by All Gone:
Brett,

Adam told me he forgot to tell accounting to not send the ele TF. It was an honest mistake.
That was my main question for Adam the whole time. Why was i not notified before the TF was sent? I found this out a couple of days ago.

AG

Ouch! That's not good!

Adam,

I'd still like to get some clarification as to how this money holding thing works with ACST. Is this a true escrow or are you simply holding money to keep the client from traveling with it and to keep the outfitter reassured it's available with no requirements for release like an agreed favorable outcome between the client and outfitter or a confirmation from the cleint of animals killed? How does this work? Please feel free to chime in Mark as I'm sure you're familiar with proceedures at ACST.

Brett

PS. Does the country the hunt was conducted in make a difference in payment proceedure? Zim requires X so we do X when paying for a hunt in Zim. Where as Zam requires Y so we do Y for a hunt in Zam. And Tanz does Z so we do Z to pay for a hunt in Tanz. Or is it even outfitter to outfitter specific? Thanks.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

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Originally posted by MJines:
This cannot be, the audience on Who Wants to be a Millionaire always gets it right. I am so confused.

They did get it right. And we did it without lawyers.

"We", you have got to be kidding me. All most folks did on this thread was to pass judgment with incomplete and inconsistent facts. The only reason this was successfully resolved -- and we have yet to hear that the client views that it was successfully resolved, the people declaring success are all the folks that were previously prepared to tar and feather Adam -- was because Adam stepped up to the plate, something he was already doing apparently well before this thread was even started. Also sounds to me like this thread resulted in a suboptimal resolution of the matter compared to what Adam felt he could have accomplished if given the time to work the problem. If you call that success, there is less hope for you than I thought.

I think Saeed said it best. You didn't.

Adam
Given the circumstances, that is about all you can do for AG. You've stepped up and did all you can. I would hope that this is the of your relationship with Jimba and Wayne. Thanks for a concise and informative post. Wayne is still an outfitter to be avoided at all costs.

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Originally posted by Heym 450/400:
DawnRoar,

Sometimes there isn't a good side or bad side to every story. Sometimes all sides are in the wrong. Thank you for proving this.

You say Adam refuses to "engage this crowd" but I see he has no problem selling hunts to "this crowd"

instead he engaged a lawyer to act as a "concerned" poster instead of a shill. give me a break.

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Originally posted by GeorgeS:

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Originally posted by Bwanamich:
So to summarize the hunt>
- The Ph chased down and cut-off the kudu and appears to have allowed AG to shoot the kudu from the vehicle
- The PH colluded with AG to bribe the game scout for the wounded and lost buff
- The PH had the client shoot the bushbuck form the boat which is illegal
- Finally, the PH made AG shoot a juvenile elephant

How any one places blame on all this on ACST is beyond me! IMHO, ACST would do good to simply refund his commission and strike off of his good business list both client and outfitter.

WD on the other hand, needs to refund the client's safari in full and report TL to the authorities to have his license withdrawn.

Probably the best course of action, but it will never happen.

BTW, PHs and game guards have been known to "work around" tricky situations for the price of a cash "fine" paid at the time (wink, wink).

A visiting hunter would be very hard pressed to decline if under threat of incarceration.

George

This is the most honest post on this entire thread. Shame on Adam for feeding dirt about the buff to his lawyer and also having his lawyer, bring it up to the forum which will most likely result in AG losing his other trophies in addition to getting screwed on the baby ele. If All Gone thought, as an African first-timer as he said he was in one of his first posts, that the bribe was standard procedure with a wounded buff I wonder why he thought that???????? Trackers and Scouts never work that shit out after an animal is wounded and lost and then approach the PH with a "plan". And PHs never offer clients who wound an animal a deal and add that "what happens in the bush stays in the bush unless you book with Adam Clements in which case he will tell his his lawyer who will rat you out and post your sins on an internet forum". I wonder how AG could have ever gotten the idea that this stuff was kosher?

Was it right? No. Is it Africa? Yes.

Does anyone here who knows anything at all about Africa think for a minute that Adam or any other PH would have done anything different than the one in question did with a first time African hunter and a wounded buff? They all want their hunter to go home with a buff! I don't believe for a second that either of them are strangers to this sort of thing and for them to try to hang it around All Gone's neck is a farce.

Who here can say that as a first time African hunter who has probably saved for a lifetime to afford a hunt that when offered the choice after wounding a buffalo between paying a two or three thousand dollar trophy fee and going home empty handed or paying the gamescout a couple of hundred bucks for another chance at a buff and then paying the trophy fee wouldn't take the "wink and a nod"?

excellent points. As a virgin you trust the PH to keep it legal.

Adam,

I'm not sure what happened to your second post but thank you for the thoughtful reply. I didn't figure most booking agents work as an escrow service. That said I thought it was possible you could have conditions before money was released to the outsider. And yes I have no doubt that you have many happy customers that I could speak with. Thank you for the reply.

Brett

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paying a two or three thousand dollar trophy fee and going home empty handed or paying the gamescout a couple of hundred bucks for another chance at a buff and then paying the trophy fee wouldn't take the "wink and a nod"

I'll tell you what, If you trust people in a suspect foreign country to the point you can bribe them without fear of some wise-ass reporting you for the bribe only to bribe you right back under the threat of sending you to the local pokey, you are much braver than I. Maybe a waste to you, but a 2 grand lost trophy fee to guarantee I'll make it back stateside is cheap when you consider the alternative.

So let me get this straight….

Adam was working on a partial refund, and simple “forgot” to let the accounting departmaent know to hold the Elephant trophy fee back? I guess that can happen in a big, huge company like ACST.

Wayne was P.O.ed beacause the half assed, lazy PH he hired(he hired!) did a back door deal on a a wounded buffalo? As far as I can see this cost Wayne nothing. It was illegal, but again, it was set up by his(HIS) employee.

Why is Wayne upset at the client when it was his employee who set up the “dirty deal”?

I guess this gives Wayne a good excuse to nix any refund?

Why was Adam dealing with such a dodgy outfitter?

And what does any of this have to do with the shooting of a calf elephant? Nothing.

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Originally posted by BaxterB:

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paying a two or three thousand dollar trophy fee and going home empty handed or paying the gamescout a couple of hundred bucks for another chance at a buff and then paying the trophy fee wouldn't take the "wink and a nod"

I'll tell you what, If you trust people in a suspect foreign country to the point you can bribe them without fear of some wise-ass reporting you for the bribe only to bribe you right back under the threat of sending you to the local pokey, you are much braver than I. Maybe a waste to you, but a 2 grand lost trophy fee to guarantee I'll make it back stateside is cheap when you consider the alternative.

Who's going to report you? The scout or tracker whom you just paid off? Or the PH who arranged it? This shit happens and it happens every day as well as other stuff, if you're scared or paranoid my best advice is to remain in the States and hunt here. Doesn't mean that its right but its fact.

Robert, you live your life the way you choose to, and I'll live mine the way I choose. I sleep well.

Robert, a lot of this type of crap is going on for sure, but it is not going on with the operators/hunters I and certain other chaps promote here, I can promise you that much. And it never has with that sort. Fine, carry on bribing when you/your 'PH' cock up, but make sure you don't get caught in Zim because it may be a long time before you get stateside.

BaxterB, IMO you live your life right, with principles.

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Does anyone here who knows anything at all about Africa think for a minute that Adam or any other PH would have done anything different than the one in question did with a first time African hunter and a wounded buff?

I do not believe it. Nor would I even consider it. My wife's first big animal was an eland. She wounded it and we tracked it all day until we lost the blood trail. It was never even a question that we would pay the trophy fee. She was upset, not about the trophy fee, but for the animal suffering. That is what a hunter should do.