quote:

Originally posted by All Gone:
Saeed,

Obviously your suggestion carrys a lot of weight and suggestions are what i am here for.

I feel like i am walking a fine line between doing the right thing and seeing my trophys again. I have stated before and still feel that no one would be benefitting from destroying my trophys. Maybe i was being a little selfish in my thinking.

It seems that most here think that i should come out with the agents name so that is what i will do.

The booking agent is Adam Clements Safari Trackers.

Uh Oh !

Where's Mark on this??

Oh shit!!

All Gone
Knowing who the agent is I think you do not have to be too worried about it.
Adam and Mark are both great guys who have a reputation for doing whats right and getting their clients their monies worth.

If I were you I would not import the elephant trophy, maybe bring the tusks home and turn them into something, but dont have it mounted.
I get the feeling that you will be hunting a 70+lbs Elephant bull with Buzz in the near future.

Mark and Adam will do what is right, rest assured.
HQ

quote:

Originally posted by martin pieters:

Please confirm this hunt was conducted in Sijarira.

Martin

Why does that matter? What is the significance of Sijarira? I haven't hunted Zim.

Just a question to get the facts right!

Gentlemen,

Please do not jump to conclusions.

Let us wait and see what the booking agent does to help in this matter.

One thing for sure though, I hope no one ever books to hunt with the PH who had that baby elephant shot!

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
All Gone,

I guess you must realize that this is an international forum so basically you've already let the cat out of the bag so to speak and made your intent to write a negative report quite clear.

Mark

I am a bit confused here by Mark's answer.

Did he not know that this hunt was booked through his company?

Guys,

Until yesterday I didn't know All Gone was a client of ACST. Adam is working All Gone's problem and will continue to do so upon his return from Scotland next week. There are always two sides to every controversy but there is no doubt that the shooting of that juvenile elephant was a terrible thing.

Mark

Saeed,

We evidently were typing at the same time.

Mark

Mark,

I would be very careful for what I say from this point forward, since this could greatly affect your reputation.

Correct, there are always 2 sides to every story but a picture is worth a thousand words.

There cannot possibly be any excuse for killing that Elephant, so I hope that your company makes it right.

Anything less is going to cause great damage to your reputation. There is no excuse for this, someone has to pay.

Someone with knowledge please help me. Every item sold carries a profit margin. The "trophy" fee for the ele was $10,000 USD. What is the cost to the PH? Meaning how much does he have to pay Zim? Seems logical that any amount over the govt fee would be refunded.
Some might argue for more but I believe that would be a logical starting point.

Ski+3

Shooting that ele is inexcusable...he should get a 100% refund no questions asked...none!

From whom should this refund be given? The person who took the money i.e. the booking agent? Should the booking agent give poor Mr. Martin a refund immediately and try to get a refund from his outfitter? Should Mr. Martin have to wait and see what the booking agent can get out of the outfitter? What is the "right and honorable" thing to do. Shouldn't Mr. Martin be given the same courtesy as he has given? He prepaid for the hunt so he should be prepaid for the refund, no?

quote:

Shouldn't Mr. Martin be given the same courtesy as he has given? He prepaid for the hunt so he should be prepaid for the refund, no?

I think so...after all...that IS the reason to use a booking agent.

Assuming the PH did direct All Gone to shoot that elephant(remember there are two sides to every story), a full refund of the elephant trophy fee is due.

Whether the money has passed from the booking agent to the outfitter is going to have a huge impact on whether this is possible.

George Hoffman(RIP-he is one one of my heros, BTW) once instructed a client to shoot an elephant that turned out to be some type of dwarf with tiny tusks that matched his tiny body. George sucked it up and paid the trophy fee himself.

Russ Broom once had a client's tusks stolen from the camp's storage room(they were later recovered after a witch doctor was paid to make a visit). I asked what would have been done if the tusks were not recovered. I was told that Mr. Broom would have flown the client back to Zim to shoot another elephant, with Mr. Broom covering all costs.

In Namibia the client can refuse to accept a trophy that does not meet the NAPHA(?) bronze metal standard(10% below SCI min, IIRC).

It would seem that something similar should be possible in this case.

quote:

All Gone
new member

Posted 09 November 2011 17:49
Hide Post
I just e-mailed my agent. We'll see what happens.

Please don't tell us that you waited a month to contact your booking agent. If he sent the funds overseas before you contacted him it will be very difficult to resolve things.

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:


In Namibia the client can refuse to accept a trophy that does not meet the NAPHA(?) bronze metal standard(10% below SCI min, IIRC).

Is that true ? Never heard about that, sounds ridiculous

Gentlemen,

Let us not too far ahead of ourselves before all the facts are known.

My understanding is the booking agent gets a percentage of the DAILY rate. NOT the trophy fees.

Be that as it may, from what we know so far, the trouble lays with the PH in Zimbabwe, and the company that employs him.

I think we have to be very realistic at this, and not start putting the blame on those who are not responssible.

Saeed,

To me this is not about who is to blame. That is obvious to me, the PH is supposed to be in total control of the hunt. I do think Mr. Martin has some responsibility being the one that pulled the trigger. The issue to me is whether the booking agent is willing to back up the product he sold, the hunt. This is no different than the situation with Blair World Wide. We know what Blair World Wide's position is, "I'm only the travel agent". We see where that's gotten him. We are waiting on the response from Safari Trackers, hopefully it's not the same. It's easy when everything is on autopilot and a hunt goes well. I think where the booking agent earns his money is when the shit hit the fan as in this case. It will tell a lot of us watching whether this booking agent is worth his mettle. It is up to the booking agent to make this right for Mr. Martin, whether the outfitter/PH steps up or not. Whether they step up or not is irrelevant to many here I think, because I do think Jimba Safari's name is mud here already.

I booked through Adam so Mark most likely does not know of me.

I let Adam know how unhappy i was as soon as i got home and told him that i thought i should get half the ele trophy fee refunded.

About a week later i called Adam and asked about if he had talked to Wayne about the refund. Adam stated he had not had any coraspondance with Wayne yet. That is when he told me that Wayne would say no refunds, it was ultamatly my decision to shoot, but that he would try anyway. At that point i figured Adam would take care of it. If i was to get a refund i would if not than so be it.

I called a couple weeks later for an update on things. At that time Adam did talk to Wayne. I did not ask Adam about a refund because of our previous conversation. Adam said he needed to becareful of how he proceeded because of my trophys.

I was not happy with any of it. Thats why i decided to come here and ask suggetions on what to do and how to proceed.

Two days ago i recieved a credit memo with no refund for ele or any thing else. no explaination of anything no e-mail no phone call no nothing. Thats why i thought i was on my own. And thats when i e-mailed and called to see if what was going on AGAIN. Jamie, Adam's assistant said everything is fine but my trophys could take up to a year to get shipped back. Then Adam e-mailed from scotland and said he was still working on the refund. he also said that he would call me when he got home.
Thats why in my post yesterday i said i would wait to name the agent. After reading Saeed's post and thinking it over i decided to let you all know the agant. Still not sure if that was the right thing to do but it is done right or wrong. I am trying my best to not shoot myself in the foot here. I don't feel anyone is going to be happy after all this but i do hope to at least come to a fair agreement.

I thought Adam could have done much better at keeping me informed. I want to be kept in the loop. I do not think i should have to call everytime i want an update.

Richard

Sorry for your problems. This whole affair has got to be difficult. I've read this thread from the beginning and I couldn't help wondering.....


1) Did you know about this outfitter in Zim from your own research or did Adam suggest them to you?

2) If he suggested them did he mention any trouble in the past before you booked and sent money?

The reason I ask is you posted that when you contacted the agent about your poor experience he had mentioned trouble with the outfitter before. I just wondered if that information was only shared after the hunt and not before?

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

quote:

Originally posted by Aspen Hill Adventures:
I'm sorry for sounding like I am beating a dead horse here but the photos of that elephant calf is very disturbing (in fact, mortifying). There are several Zim PH's who post here and I can't imagine any one of them guiding a client to such an animal and calling it a trophy and then being able to show their faces in public after the fact.

I realize it takes two to tango but this is just plain embarassing or just complete laziness on the part of the PH.

W T F ???

That kudu is lackluster as well if the PH said, 'shoot him'.

Zim has a lot of great trophy quality and people don't spend thousands and thousands of dollars to be guided to this sort of trash.

I'm gonna say it again, ' W T F ?' This is rediculous.

All Gone,

I think all of us here need the whole story, no more curtains, ok? Did the PH tell you to shoot these animals as trophies? If so, I want to know who he is and what outfit he is working for if he isn't the 'owner'.

It equates to the killing of a 2 yr old lion.

Fujo,

You are 100% correct about this fact!

I do not want to hi-jack this thread...so...for those who care...I wrote a thread pertaining to this in the Lion Conservation Forum called "young ele...why not young lion???"

I would like to know why this gentlemen's real name, first and last was brought into this?

Steve

I had no idea this outfitt existed. One day while on this forum i had read one of Mark Youngs post. I seen Adam's name at the bottom and decided to google it. I contacted Adam and told him about what i was looking for and how much i could spend. When he told me that for what i could spend he could set me up with Jimba safaris to hunt ele, buff and leopard on a 14 day hunt. I knew of no one else that offered this so thought i hit the jackpot.

Adam sent me references and i called all of them. Most of the guys said they had good hunts some even said they had great hunts. There was no red flags that i could see. I was told the buff hunting could be tough but that was ok by me. I had heard there were lots of cats which there were. The place was crawling with ele which was correct. No real negitives that i could tell.

After i returned and complained to Adam about my experience he admitted that there were some complaints in the past. He did not elaborate on specifics but i would have to assume some of the complaints were about Tims laziness and pissy attitude at times. Please remember those are my assumtions, what Adam was referring to i do not know for sure.

I do know that Jimba's website is new. They did not have one when i booked. I believe it is only a few months old.

As always feel free to ask any question you like. I promise you i will be as honest as possible. Maybe a little long winded at times but i want to put ALL the facts on the table in hopes of a fair outcome.

Richard

quote:

Originally posted by All Gone:
I booked through Adam so Mark most likely does not know of me.

I let Adam know how unhappy i was as soon as i got home and told him that i thought i should get half the ele trophy fee refunded.

Richard

Sounds pretty reasonable to me. You employ a outfit and PH to guide you on your Safari when a mistake is obviously made in a mutually required decision it might be best to compromise .

quote:

I would like to know why this gentlemen's real name, first and last was brought into this?

Why not? In line with what Saeed said, if he does what he should and upholds the reputation he has on the site then Adam will greatly benefit from the attention.

The old addage, "there is no such thing as bad press" should have added to it, "dependent on your conduct in finding a resolution"

You can be sure Adam will find a good solution for both parties.

Allgone, well done for being open and honest. Your conduct has been quite acceptable.
HQ

quote:

Originally posted by All Gone:
I had no idea this outfitt existed. One day while on this forum i had read one of Mark Youngs post. I seen Adam's name at the bottom and decided to google it. I contacted Adam and told him about what i was looking for and how much i could spend. When he told me that for what i could spend he could set me up with Jimba safaris to hunt ele, buff and leopard on a 14 day hunt. I knew of no one else that offered this so thought i hit the jackpot.

Adam sent me references and i called all of them. Most of the guys said they had good hunts some even said they had great hunts. There was no red flags that i could see. I was told the buff hunting could be tough but that was ok by me. I had heard there were lots of cats which there were. The place was crawling with ele which was correct. No real negitives that i could tell.

After i returned and complained to Adam about my experience he admitted that there were some complaints in the past. He did not elaborate on specifics but i would have to assume some of the complaints were about Tims laziness and pissy attitude at times. Please remember those are my assumtions, what Adam was referring to i do not know for sure.

I do know that Jimba's website is new. They did not have one when i booked. I believe it is only a few months old.

As always feel free to ask any question you like. I promise you i will be as honest as possible. Maybe a little long winded at times but i want to put ALL the facts on the table in hopes of a fair outcome.

Richard

Richard,

Thank you for being so open about your hunt. I certainly appreciate what you are doing, and I am sure many members here do so too.

This is the way I look at it, and this is purely my personal opinion, no one else's.

I am assuming this is your first hunt for elephants, hence you going ahead and shooting the elephant you did. I am not putting any blame on you at all, as I have been hunting for many years, and have seen many hunters who have had no previous experience with some animals have extremely bad time judging them, and would just go ahead and shoot as soon as his PH said so.

A hunter with more expereince would not have shot that elephant.

Ultimately, the blame falls on the PH guiding you, and the company that employs him.

The responssibility of the booking agent is limited to a certain extent, IF THIS IS THE FIRST TIME they have had serious complaints about this outfit and PH.

If it is a repeat, as you have been told by Adam, them I would say they have more responssibility towards making this right. You are being very generous in accepting 50% refund. I think you are entitled to a full refund on the trophy fee of the elephant, as that elephant is not a trophy at all. I know, some will say you hve pulled the trigger. But as I mentioned previously, if this was your first elephant hunt, you probably just went ahead as your PH said and shot it.

The outfitter cannot refund your trophy fee, as that was paid to Wayne.

The most the outfitter can pay you back is the commission they made on the hunt, and blacklist Wayne and his outfit for any future hunts.

If Adam goes this far, he would have done all he can do, as far as I am concerned.

Blaire was mentioned above, but Blaire flatly refused to do anything to help the client.

Which means members of AR are absolutely right in blacklisting Blaire for any future dealings.

Let us not paint Adam with the same color.
Give him a chance to see how much he can help you.

quote:

Originally posted by African Hunters Quest:

quote:

I would like to know why this gentlemen's real name, first and last was brought into this?

Why not? In line with what Saeed said, if he does what he should and upholds the reputation he has on the site then Adam will greatly benefit from the attention.

The old addage, "there is no such thing as bad press" should have added to it, "dependent on your conduct in finding a resolution"

You can be sure Adam will find a good solution for both parties.

Allgone, well done for being open and honest. Your conduct has been quite acceptable.
HQ

I was referring to the hunter NOT the agent. His name is of no relevance to "us" and Adam and Mark know it already. (his name)

quote:

The outfitter cannot refund your trophy fee, as that was paid to Wayne.

The most the outfitter can pay you back is the commission they made on the hunt, and blacklist Wayne and his outfit for any future hunts.

Shouldn't the two paragraphs read "agent" instead of outfitter?

Shouldn't that refund of the commission happen already? Shouldn't that have happened immediately upon seeing the picture of the poor elephant? I didn't see anywhere that Adam have stepped up for at least that much. And if Adam is as upstanding as some claim him to be more would be forthcoming out of his own pocket maybe not all of the trophy fee but at least the half that Richard is generously willing to accept.

quote:

Originally posted by A.Dahlgren:

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:


In Namibia the client can refuse to accept a trophy that does not meet the NAPHA(?) bronze metal standard(10% below SCI min, IIRC).

Is that true ? Never heard about that, sounds ridiculous

Mr. Dahlgren
I misspoke. Bronze metal status is 5% below SCI minimum. NAPHA minimum trophy standards(Namibia quality control
minimum measurements as
accepted by NAPHA) are 10% below SCI record-book minimums. See here.

In other words, if your PH has you shoot a young sub-par animal you don't have to pay.

It makes sense to me. Any PH worth his salt can judge trophies to +-10%. I believe that is part of the NAPHA basic hunting guide test.

PHs make mistakes. Clients should not have to pay for the PHs screw-ups.

I don't care if the PH has to sell his landcrusier, any PH who instructs his client to shoot a calf should suck it up and cover the trophy fee.

BTW, All Gone, how much did you tip your PH?

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

Originally posted by A.Dahlgren:

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:


In Namibia the client can refuse to accept a trophy that does not meet the NAPHA(?) bronze metal standard(10% below SCI min, IIRC).

Is that true ? Never heard about that, sounds ridiculous

Mr. Dahlgren
I misspoke. Bronze metal status is 5% below SCI minimum. NAPHA minimum trophy standards(Namibia quality control
minimum measurements as
accepted by NAPHA) are 10% below SCI record-book minimums. See here.

In other words, if your PH has you shoot a young sub-par animal you don't have to pay.

It makes sense to me. Any PH worth his salt can judge trophies to +-10%. I believe that is part of the NAPHA basic hunting guide test.

PHs make mistakes. Clients should not have to pay for the PHs screw-ups.

I don't care if the PH has to sell his landcrusier, any PH who instructs his client to shoot a calf should suck it up and cover the trophy fee.

BTW, All Gone, how much did you tip your PH?

JBrown:

First and foremost:
- the current opinions being aired on AR indicate that most clients should book through reputable and honest booking agents of which there are no shortage here on AR;
- payment is normally made to the agent who keeps the figures in escrow, to release them at the client's call;
- the outfitter is ultimately responsible for the outcome of the hunt, including any fiasco;
- the PH is a "hired hand" and while he/she may be lambasted for a screw up, he/she is not directly answerable to the begrudged client (IMO).

All Gone should lodge his complaint directly to his agent, in this case Adam Clements, who is responsible for arranging the hunt and it will be Adam chewing the outfitter's balls!

How or from where any eventual refund is made is irrelevant.

Isn't that the reason for booking through an agent??

I think there is a misconception here about holding the payment in an escrow account.

It might be true of hunting in some countries - South Africa on a farm probably.

But, certainly not in Tanzania. Payment has to be made before any license nis issued.

If the Booking agent wants to go as far as paying from his own pocket, and wait u7ntil the end of the hunt to charge the client, t5hat is his choice.

I somehow doubt that many booking agents would do that - if any.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I think there is a misconception here about holding the payment in an escrow account.

It might be true of hunting in some countries - South Africa on a farm probably.

But, certainly not in Tanzania. Payment has to be made before any license nis issued.

If the Booking agent wants to go as far as paying from his own pocket, and wait u7ntil the end of the hunt to charge the client, t5hat is his choice.

I somehow doubt that many booking agents would do that - if any.

Correctly stated as far as GHP and govt. related royalties are concerned, which for a 21 day hunt would amount to approximately $13,000 which have to be paid 'up front'.
Daily rates are usually settled 50% up front as a confirmation to the booking with the balance being settled just prior to the start date of the hunt.

The figure held in escrow is mainly related to the trophy fees and charter fees, gratuities and possibly any other charges that may crop up unexpectedly (eg. additional hunting days).

This Elephant is not fully sexually mature yet and there is no honest outfitter that can market and execute on an animal of that caliber and expect the client to be happy after paying big $ for the trophy.

Had this been a PAC hunt, it may have been a different story and price - but it wasn't, so 'someone' needs to stand up for his mistake!!!

PH's in Zimbabwe go through a rigorous apprenticeship and several grueling exams (theory and practical), to be awarded a licence to conduct, for reward, a hunt with a client. Trophy assessment is certainly a quality that most PH's will have (within reason) but to not know the difference between an ADULT and a SUB-ADULT Elephant, never mind the difference of a 35lb'er and a 10lb'er!!!!

I smell a rat!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I think there is a misconception here about holding the payment in an escrow account.

It might be true of hunting in some countries - South Africa on a farm probably.

But, certainly not in Tanzania. Payment has to be made before any license nis issued.

If the Booking agent wants to go as far as paying from his own pocket, and wait u7ntil the end of the hunt to charge the client, t5hat is his choice.

I somehow doubt that many booking agents would do that - if any.

In my hunts in September 2010 to Namibia & Zambia all trophy fee dollars were held by my agent until my return to the States and verification of actual trophies taken.

I have taken some time to absorb all of the posts on this thread before making my comments.

First I must inform readers of this caveat, I have used Mark and Adam's services on a hunt they posted on AR and had an excellent trip. I hunted with Muchinga Adventures for buff, hippo and croc and it has been one of my all-time best trips in an area that was as promised. Wild, classic country and abundant game.

With proper disclosures out of the way, what most have not mentioned about a booking agent is that I expect them to be "the" expert on the area and outfitter I am contracting through them. I expect them to know the outfit thoroughly and be completely comfortable pairing me with said outfitter and they should have a "feel" that for the country I want to tour, the animals I want to hunt and my price range, they have made the "perfect" hunting arrangement for me, their client.

To simply sell me a hunt in their "inventory" to move products/services or earn them fees removes them from the category "consultant" and puts them on par with any other salesman. I have used the term "used car salesmen" to define some agents and have suffered some nasty pms on these forums as a result. However, sometimes the "shoe fits". This has not been my experience with Safari Trackers.

I also see a disturbing trend among hunters that expect 100% guaranteed success because they use a booking agent. Nothing could be more illogical. Unless you are headed for a high-fenced operation, no hunting is guaranteed. And even on some large high-fence operation there are chances you could come home empty-handed.

The elephant in the pictures that Richard shot is an embarrassment to the PH and outfitter that allowed such an animal to be taken. Mistakes can and do happen. If you have hunted long enough, something similar might have happened to you. But when those mistakes occur and the PH made the call to shoot... he has the responsibility and accountability that the animal shot meets the predetermined expectations of his client. If he blows the call, he eats the trophy fee.

In my opinion, the fault lies with the PH and Richard deserves a full refund on the trophy fee paid on that bull. Period.

Adam owes his client to try and recover as much of that fee as he can negotiate and any commission on the trophy fee that Safari Consultants earned should be reimbursed to Richard. If Adam was aware of previous issues with the Jimbah Safaris yet sent clients to them, in my opinion, his full commission should be refunded.

One last thing, I agree with Nganga that Mark never should have given out the hunter's name in his post. Totally unprofessional. Client confidentiality is sancrosact in any business. It is no different in the travel business. Which brings up another discussion altogether, who is the booking agent working for? The client or the outfitter?

Truly unfortunate dilemma and I do feel for Richard. My friend, do not give up on African hunting. Most of the outfitters you will find there are good, hard-working, honest folks who truly want to show you their beautiful country. Don't let this sordid affair sour you on Africa's riches.

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

All Gone should lodge his complaint directly to his agent, in this case Adam Clements, who is responsible for arranging the hunt and it will be Adam chewing the outfitter's balls!

How or from where any eventual refund is made is irrelevant.

Isn't that the reason for booking through an agent??

I agree that a full refund is owed, unless All Gone has released the funds(it sounds like he has not, and I hope this is the case). If the funds have been sent overseas.... Well, best of luck.

Assuming the details that have been put forth are correct, Adam Clements should be able to get a full refund on the elephant trophy fee. There is no way that anyone should expect a hunter to pay $10k for a calf elephant(unless the screw-up was his fault).

All Gone
In regards to the fact that is sounds like your booking agent was not being very helpful initially, had you shown him the photo of your elephant?(I ask because it is easy to make the claims that you have made about your elephant being sub par, but one look at that photo would have removed all doubt as to the fact that it was no "trophy bull". Just as it has done on this thread.)

if Jimba's trophy fee is $10,000 for a calf, what the hell do they charge for a REAL trophy bull??