quote:

Originally posted by Mike70560:

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Does anyone here who knows anything at all about Africa think for a minute that Adam or any other PH would have done anything different than the one in question did with a first time African hunter and a wounded buff?

I do not believe it. Nor would I even consider it. My wife's first big animal was an eland. She wounded it and we tracked it all day until we lost the blood trail. It was never even a question that we would pay the trophy fee. She was upset, not about the trophy fee, but for the animal suffering. That is what a hunter should do.

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Originally posted by JBrown:

...Why was Adam dealing with such a dodgy outfitter?...

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Originally posted by DawnRoar:

This guy put a budget on Adam and got a hunt for Ele, buff and leopard for 30k. How many 30k hunts like that you been on or have found available?

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Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:
Adam,

I'm not sure what happened to your second post but thank you for the thoughtful reply. I didn't figure most booking agents work as an escrow service. That said I thought it was possible you could have conditions before money was released to the outsider. And yes I have no doubt that you have many happy customers that I could speak with. Thank you for the reply.

Brett

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Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:
Adam,

I'm not sure what happened to your second post but thank you for the thoughtful reply. I didn't figure most booking agents work as an escrow service. That said I thought it was possible you could have conditions before money was released to the outsider. And yes I have no doubt that you have many happy customers that I could speak with. Thank you for the reply.

Brett

Second post?

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Fulson:
To LHOWELL in particular, but for all. In my opinion, as a booking agent with a deep history in this business I would like to offer MY feelings on the AGENT LOYALTY issue. It may not be the practice or feelings of other agents, but it reflects our outlook from a Safari Classics standpoint and , I believe, many other outfits in our business.
Yes, the safari outfitter pays a commission to the agent who represents and sells his hunts. But, and this is a big but, neither the outfitter or the agent make any money without THE CLIENT, thus the agent is working for the betterment of both the parties that he is representing. Both are vital, both must honor their commitments, and the agent is in the middle to make sure both parties have a clear understanding of laws, expectations,fees, dates, staff, general understandings and the list goes on and on. The agent works for BOTH parties, and he will , as is his job, work like hell to handle any issues that come up. Problems do happen, in all businesses, and sometime it's due to the client, sometimes it may be due to the outfitter. I have seen both, as have all experienced agents, and I have supported both as needed. That the agent is only loyal to the outfitter is simply not true, and to state it as such shows a complete lack of understanding of the relationship. Broad brushes often paint over unintended lines ! If the outfitter is in the wrong-the agent backs the client. If the client is in the wrong, the agent backs the outfitter. If you are using a agent that feels otherwise, you have chosen the wrong guy.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Fulson:
To LHOWELL in particular, but for all. In my opinion, as a booking agent with a deep history in this business I would like to offer MY feelings on the AGENT LOYALTY issue. It may not be the practice or feelings of other agents, but it reflects our outlook from a Safari Classics standpoint and , I believe, many other outfits in our business.
Yes, the safari outfitter pays a commission to the agent who represents and sells his hunts. But, and this is a big but, neither the outfitter or the agent make any money without THE CLIENT, thus the agent is working for the betterment of both the parties that he is representing. Both are vital, both must honor their commitments, and the agent is in the middle to make sure both parties have a clear understanding of laws, expectations,fees, dates, staff, general understandings and the list goes on and on. The agent works for BOTH parties, and he will , as is his job, work like hell to handle any issues that come up. Problems do happen, in all businesses, and sometime it's due to the client, sometimes it may be due to the outfitter. I have seen both, as have all experienced agents, and I have supported both as needed. That the agent is only loyal to the outfitter is simply not true, and to state it as such shows a complete lack of understanding of the relationship. Broad brushes often paint over unintended lines ! If the outfitter is in the wrong-the agent backs the client. If the client is in the wrong, the agent backs the outfitter. If you are using a agent that feels otherwise, you have chosen the wrong guy.

quote:

Originally posted by Adam Clements:
I am going to state my position simply because certain people have asked me to, although I do not believe in solving ongoing issues by public internet or public opinions. I would have preferred this issue be solved first in private and then AG could state his hunt report with all the facts including the final outcome at once. I do believe it is good for any hunter to post a bad report on any hunt that they think was not good, but I also think it is prudent to make sure that when a bad report is made, that all the facts are listed and the final outcome has been determined one way or the other. I have tried to keep this matter private and tried to come up with a good solution even with the mud slinging going on and with some posters who have nothing better to do than jump on the misfortune of others. So, here are the facts from me and my position so there is no more assumptions as to who, what, how or where I stand. You want the details, so here they are since this has turned into a public affair.

Richard was booked on this hunt in the Sij area which I have personally hunted myself several times in the past and I know for a fact the area does produce a good safari. I offered this area to clients who wanted an option on a hunt where they could get an affordable hunt. This area is not the easiest area to hunt and Richard and I discussed all of the details pros and cons of the area prior to his booking the safari. The area does not produce “big” elephants and a client should expect 25-40 pounds on average. Leopard is good in area and Buffalo are there, but tough hunting and Richard was very happy with this option. Everything was booked and should have gone smoothly and there should not have been any problems! Because some of the past clients who had hunted with Tim complained about him being lazy and moody, I made it clear to Wayne that he would need to be the PH with any of my clients and never wanted Tim around my clients.

Richard returned from his hunt and told me that he had a good hunt and enjoyed the experience, but thought that his elephant was small and he thought Tim had made a mistake. I asked him why Tim was there, and he then told me that Wayne had e-mailed him prior to his safari and said he would not be able to be the PH. I asked why he had not informed me of this before he left, so I could have put my foot down and either forced Wayne to do the hunt, or find another PH to do the hunt? He had no answer and did not know why he did not inform me of this. I asked him to e-mail pictures, which he did. As soon as I saw the pictures I was furious about the elephant and shot an e-mail to Wayne asking him what happened, why it happened, why he did not do the hunt, and that he better be in the process of firing Tim right away. I was very angry and not acceptable for any PH to allow this type of mistake to happen. We all make mistakes, but this was one that was preventable and should not have been made.

I then talked to Richard on the phone and apologized for the elephant and explained that should have never happened. Keep in mind I was still blindsided by the fact that he had hunted with Tim without my knowledge. I asked Richard if there was anything else that went wrong and besides the elephant how was the rest of the safari? He then mentioned that he thought Tim was moody, lazy, was not happy with the baiting or checking of baits, but that he was very happy with his leopard, bushbuck and kudu. Richards main concern at this time was his trophies and wanted me to make sure that his trophies were safe and would be shipped correctly and that nothing would happen to them. I had advised Richard before his safari to use a particular taxidermist in Bulawayo for his dipping & packing etc that I knew was trust worthy, had used before and was recommend by other PH’s in Bulawayo. Richard said that the trophies had been picked up and sent to another taxidermists while he was there in camp and was now worried about his trophies. I told him not to worry that both Jamie and myself would get onto it right away and make sure his trophies were fine and would be shipped with no problems to the best of our abilities. We got onto the matter with the trophies and made sure all was in order. I was still waiting on a reply from Wayne, so I could talk to him. My accounting office did what it does with every outfitter and once they got the final trophy fee bill from the outfitter, they wired the money for the trophy fees listed in order for there not to be any delay in the govt payment and trophy process from our side. Richard still had some money left over on his trophy fee credit and when my office sent him his final invoice and stated they were going to refund him his remaining credit, he asked my office not to send him any money refund as he did not want it to look like he was accepting a refund from us and for us to hold the money and not to send the $1,500 tip that he was going to give Tim until his trophies arrived. Did not make sense to us so they held his credit until further notified.

A few days later, Richard contacted me again and asked if Wayne would be willing to refund his trophy fee for the elephant. I told Richard that I would get with Wayne and do everything I can to see what I could do about the elephant and see if I can get a refund and that it would be a hard job and long process and to be patient with me while I did my best in coming up with a solution. I explained that there would be many excuses made as there is always two sides to a story, but will do my best and get back to him once I had some answers.

I finally got to speak with Wayne on the phone and we went over everything of the safari. I made sure that the trophies were in good shape and would be handled properly and shipped out asap. We discussed the elephant and Wayne was mad about it as well and I asked him if he would refund the trophy fee for the elephant to make this right for Richard on his part. He said he would think about it and he wanted to talk to Tim in detail to get his side of the story and find out what happened and would get back to me. Richard kept calling me very often checking in and asking if I had gotten anything for him. I told Richard I was working on it and thought I would get something worked out, but I needed time and patience. If I was not in the office, then Jamie would answer him and advise I was traveling and would get back to him when I could.

Now, in the mean time without my knowledge at first Richard decided to go to the public and ask for suggestions, where things went down hill and thanks to many of you posters who seem to think you know everything and know how to handle others issues, you jumped right into the boat and started smearing names without any full story or any final conclusion. Why would Richard need suggestions from the public internet who cannot help anything when he knew I was in the process of trying to work something out is beyond me. But because of this now and his post going like a wildfire with everyone putting in their jabs. Well Wayne saw all of this on AR even before I did and when I talked to Wayne again on the phone thinking I was going to get a refund for Richard, everything had changed and he was now angry due to the smearing on AR and was not willing to give any cash refund and would only offer a repeat hunt. He also just then informed me that he had just found out from Tim that there was a wounded and lost Buffalo in the mix now and why was Richard not honest about this? I told Wayne that Richard had not said anything to me about a buffalo at all and I would find out his story. Wayne then gave me Tims side of the story from the safari which has already been mentioned, but of no interest to me really as my concern was to try and solve the issue at hand and try to get something back for Richard.

I called Richard up and asked what the story was on a Buffalo? He said yes he had wounded and lost a buffalo and did not know why he had not told me of it and that he had bribed the game scout $300 and thought not to mention it again. I told him that this new news caused a second spanner in the spokes and it kept getting harder for me to negotiate any type of deal. Wayne was by now in no mood to deal much or listen to any reason from me. So I had no choice but to offer Richard what Wayne’s offer was at this time. I do not have the power to force any outfitter to make their own decisions or what to do, and in this case my only power and reasoning was gone due to the smearing on AR and the hiding the Buffalo. Keep in mind I still have to be polite and professional as I still have Richard’s trophies that need to be shipped.

I feel terrible for Richard and that this safari went so wrong in so many different ways without me knowing anything until his return when I was blindsided by so many different issues. It is very misfortunate that any of this happened and hope that Wayne takes my advice and fires Tim.

Outcome as it is now: It has already been mentioned what was offered by Wayne which is a repeat hunt for $12,500 all inclusive. Whether Richard takes this or not is his decision, but I have done everything I can with Wayne on this. Because of everything said on AR and the hidden buff story, my hands are now tied with Wayne as he is done negotiating.

It has also been mentioned what I have personally offered which is my commission of $1,800, $5,000 credit for a TZ safari if he so wishes, if he wants to do the repeat safari, I will pay out of my pocket the PH fees for another PH. Even after I found out about the Buffalo and was suppose to send that money as trophy fee, I did not and returning the $3,000 to Richard. That is $4,800 in cash I am returning, plus we are returning the $1,500 cash that he wanted to tip Tim with (which he never asked to be refunded), plus the offer of credit for $5,000. I do not see what more I personally can do with the way the situation has turned out which was all out of my control and should have never happened in the first place. My office sent Richard a check for $9,632 refund and he still has the option of using $5,000 credit toward another safari in TZ. I am sure some of you will continue to question and judge. The only 2 reasons I was not able to negotiate any further with Wayne was because of this posting and because of the secret buffalo, and I do not think it is fair to question why I did not do more! Thanks to these 2 reasons my hands got tied very quickly. Richard made the decision to go public before I had time to complete any conclusion and he was not straight with me about the Buffalo. How do I fight for a client when I get blindsided and the public jury can't wait to hear the final conclusion before they start smearing and throwing accusations? That is all from me and will not post again publicly on this matter as the facts are above and nothing else to debate.

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
Dawn Roar sure has disappeared here. maybe Adam forgot to send him his retainer. oh, that's right- for the first half dozen or so posts, HE FORGOT TO MENTION HE WAS ADAM'S LAWYER/ LEGAL ADVISER/CONFIDANT( whatever the relationship is/was), divulging info passed between Adam and Richard.

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Originally posted by David Hulme:
Fine, carry on bribing when you/your 'PH' cock up, but make sure you don't get caught in Zim because it may be a long time before you get stateside.

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Originally posted by Robert Wilde:

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Originally posted by David Hulme:
Fine, carry on bribing when you/your 'PH' cock up, but make sure you don't get caught in Zim because it may be a long time before you get stateside.

David,

I never said I had ever bribed anyone and I haven't, you can keep your accusations and don't put words in my mouth but I've spent enough time in your corner of the world to know how things work and how business in the bush is conducted. As far as not getting caught crossways in Zim, that's a laugh, there isn't a more corrupt shithole on the entire sub-continent ruled by a worse pack of white-hating thugs than Zim with Mugabe and his ridiculous ZANU cronies. Time to climb off the high horse and look around, pal.

RW

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From the pictures of the ivory when it has been drawn it looks like it has no tappering and is uniform from start to end=cow tusks

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Originally posted by Saeed:
Adam can answer this for you himself.

But, in a nutshell, all 4 parties are to blame to a lesser or greater degree.

Richard has the least blame, as he has listened to his PH to break the law. I am not certain that he knew this, or he assumed that it is normal practice.

Adam knows there was a problem with this PH, and he specifically asked that he does not conduct hunts for his clients. Which brings another point up. That one cannot trust Wayne at all. He has a track record of bad reports, and he is willing to go back on his word to a client - namely Adam in this case.

Frankly, I have no idea why Adam remains booking hunts with Wayne.

The majority of the blame rests on the shoulders of Wayne and his PH Tim Lamprecht, especially as previous clients have complaint about him.

Why does Wayne still employ him?

May be bad apples tend to gravitate together?

quote:

Originally posted by Adam Clements:
I made it clear to Wayne that he would need to be the PH with any of my clients and never wanted Tim around my clients.

quote:

Originally posted by Adam Clements:
I asked him why Tim was there, and he then told me that Wayne had e-mailed him prior to his safari and said he would not be able to be the PH. I asked why he had not informed me of this before he left, so I could have put my foot down and either forced Wayne to do the hunt, or find another PH to do the hunt? He had no answer and did not know why he did not inform me of this.

quote:

Originally posted by Adam Clements:
Now, in the mean time without my knowledge at first Richard decided to go to the public and ask for suggestions, where things went down hill and thanks to many of you posters who seem to think you know everything and know how to handle others issues, you jumped right into the boat and started smearing names without any full story or any final conclusion.

quote:

Originally posted by Adam Clements:
Why would Richard need suggestions from the public internet who cannot help anything when he knew I was in the process of trying to work something out is beyond me. But because of this now and his post going like a wildfire with everyone putting in their jabs. Well Wayne saw all of this on AR even before I did and when I talked to Wayne again on the phone thinking I was going to get a refund for Richard, everything had changed and he was now angry due to the smearing on AR and was not willing to give any cash refund and would only offer a repeat hunt.

quote:

Originally posted by Adam Clements:
He also just then informed me that he had just found out from Tim that there was a wounded and lost Buffalo in the mix now and why was Richard not honest about this?

quote:

Originally posted by Adam Clements:
I called Richard up and asked what the story was on a Buffalo? He said yes he had wounded and lost a buffalo and did not know why he had not told me of it and that he had bribed the game scout $300 and thought not to mention it again.

quote:

Originally posted by Adam Clements:
I told him that this new news caused a second spanner in the spokes and it kept getting harder for me to negotiate any type of deal.

quote:

Originally posted by Adam Clements:
Wayne was by now in no mood to deal much or listen to any reason from me. So I had no choice but to offer Richard what Wayne’s offer was at this time. I do not have the power to force any outfitter to make their own decisions or what to do, and in this case my only power and reasoning was gone due to the smearing on AR and the hiding the Buffalo.

quote:

Originally posted by Adam Clements:
Whether Richard takes this or not is his decision, but I have done everything I can with Wayne on this. Because of everything said on AR and the hidden buff story, my hands are now tied with Wayne as he is done negotiating.

quote:

Originally posted by Adam Clements: The only 2 reasons I was not able to negotiate any further with Wayne was because of this posting and because of the secret buffalo, and I do not think it is fair to question why I did not do more! Thanks to these 2 reasons my hands got tied very quickly.

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Originally posted by Adam Clements:
Richard made the decision to go public before I had time to complete any conclusion and he was not straight with me about the Buffalo.

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Originally posted by Adam Clements: That is all from me and will not post again publicly on this matter as the facts are above and nothing else to debate.

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Originally posted by Buzz Charlton:
What I am even more sad to see is fellow Zimbabwean "PH" bringing our whole industry and country into disrespect. Best of luck with the out come. Cheers Buzz

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Originally posted by Buzz Charlton:


What I am even more sad to see is fellow Zimbabwean "PH" bringing our whole industry and country into disrespect. Best of luck with the out come. Cheers Buzz

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Originally posted by Max Trauma:

Richard hopefully will have learned from this experience

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Originally posted by David Hulme:
Okay, yes he shouldn't have handed over the bribe but that's easy to say in theory... Complete newbie pressurized by the situation and everyone else....This sucks.

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Originally posted by dla69:

quote:

Originally posted by David Hulme:
Okay, yes he shouldn't have handed over the bribe but that's easy to say in theory... Complete newbie pressurized by the situation and everyone else....This sucks.

BS. Right is right and a bribe is not right.

quote:

Originally posted by Max Trauma:
Mistakes were made by all.
I feel Adam has done his best to correct the problems from his end
I think the Jimbo can partially save their rep by refunding ele trohy fee minus the buffalo fee that Adam returned
I think if Jimbo safaris fires the Ph responsible for the elephant then their reputation can be further improved
I think If the trophy fee is not returned the Richard should be happy he did not end up in jail for the bribe. Breaking the law because someone else told you too do so is not a good excuse.
As far as Jimbo safaris not wanting to refund a client money based on a clear mistake because they got pissed about internet posting is a bad move for future business
If I was the owner of Jimbo and knew of what had transpired I would have made the client happy asap to avoid this info from getting to the internet since laws were broken.

Adam has done his best to fix his mistakes and I feel his reputation is restored and I would not hesitate to use him in the future given his efforts. I would encourage him to defend his reputation personally as he did in the forum and to avoid letting his lawyer defend him since lawyers are not interested in right, wrong,or justice but only in winning an argument. Sorry to other lawyers on this site but this is my feeling.

If Jimbo safaris fires Tim and refunds trophy elephant fee minus buffalo fee then I would find it acceptable for Adam to continue to use them for a probationary period until they have proven their efforts to improve their business. I would feel Adam would have to watch the release of money closely until a probationary period has demonstrated better client satisfaction

Richard hopefully will have learned from this experience and even though he did the wrong thing with the buffalo he did get the shaft on the elephant and the buffalo incident does not excuse or nullify the elephant problem. I think that Jimbo safaris did have some positive actions by offering another hunt but if I were in Richards shoes I doubt I would want to go back with the bad experience that he had and possible hostilities between parties. I also do not know if I would ever go back to Zim if I were Richard and had broken the law with the buffalo trophy fee. Richard did get a great leopard from the experience and he was happy with his kudu so he has some positives from the hunt.

Kalahari Lion (Bots 07)

quote:

Originally posted by DawnRoar:

quote:

Originally posted by Max Trauma:
Mistakes were made by all.
I feel Adam has done his best to correct the problems from his end
I think the Jimbo can partially save their rep by refunding ele trohy fee minus the buffalo fee that Adam returned
I think if Jimbo safaris fires the Ph responsible for the elephant then their reputation can be further improved
I think If the trophy fee is not returned the Richard should be happy he did not end up in jail for the bribe. Breaking the law because someone else told you too do so is not a good excuse.
As far as Jimbo safaris not wanting to refund a client money based on a clear mistake because they got pissed about internet posting is a bad move for future business
If I was the owner of Jimbo and knew of what had transpired I would have made the client happy asap to avoid this info from getting to the internet since laws were broken.

Adam has done his best to fix his mistakes and I feel his reputation is restored and I would not hesitate to use him in the future given his efforts. I would encourage him to defend his reputation personally as he did in the forum and to avoid letting his lawyer defend him since lawyers are not interested in right, wrong,or justice but only in winning an argument. Sorry to other lawyers on this site but this is my feeling.

If Jimbo safaris fires Tim and refunds trophy elephant fee minus buffalo fee then I would find it acceptable for Adam to continue to use them for a probationary period until they have proven their efforts to improve their business. I would feel Adam would have to watch the release of money closely until a probationary period has demonstrated better client satisfaction

Richard hopefully will have learned from this experience and even though he did the wrong thing with the buffalo he did get the shaft on the elephant and the buffalo incident does not excuse or nullify the elephant problem. I think that Jimbo safaris did have some positive actions by offering another hunt but if I were in Richards shoes I doubt I would want to go back with the bad experience that he had and possible hostilities between parties. I also do not know if I would ever go back to Zim if I were Richard and had broken the law with the buffalo trophy fee. Richard did get a great leopard from the experience and he was happy with his kudu so he has some positives from the hunt.

Reasonable reply and I have no problem with people who have different opinions as long as they do not make personal attacks. I just will not respond to that behavior. I am not at all directing this at you but at others who engage in personal attacks that I know are at their keyboards ready to lash out again.

I do want you to understand how I got involved and make it clear Adam did not ask me to make a single post. I posted early on saying give this some time and then see if it could get worked out. In my opinion I thought it unfair to drop Adam in the grease by his client when time would tell whether he deserved it or not. In my opinion Adam was getting flamed and as soon as I commented the sharks came after me. Adam knew of the thread and thanked me for my first effort to try and bring reason to the matter and advised me that he had no intention to come here because no matter what he said or did there is no justice to be found here. Seems he is right at least with some here, but again that is just an opinion.

Adam did advise me of the buff problem and how it really complicated his effects to negotiate with Wayne. Again just my opinion but this guy has hunted elk dahl sheep and lots of other N. American big game that is expensive. I simply choose to believe he knew better and I think if you read his earlier posts he admits he did. You draw blood you pay anywhere I have hunted because it is the right thing to do. Some here, mainly those who have attacked me think otherwise. That is fine but don't expect me to respond to your behavior . It was my choice to make it public simply because if you go back and read this thread from the start this poster was complaining about Adam and his inability to get his money back. If you can not see how this hidden buff relates to his very complaint about getting money back I am at a loss for words to help you connect those dots. Does that mean it excuses the els? Absolutely not. Does it explain difficulties adam had dealing with Wayne on money? How could it not?

Some believe the agent should keep this confidential but just food for thought here. How fair is it to take a dispute to a public forum and reveal word for word what Adam has said or written when it supports a claim that he is not doing enough then cry foul when all the relevant information is put on the table? The minute he quoted Adam he lost any expectation that Adam is bound to not reveal his side. Interestingly this is exactly how it works in the attorney client situation. A client can not reveal privilege information in an attack on his attorney and expect that the privilege will prevent or stop the lawyer from defending. The privilege can not be used both as a sword and a shield which is exactly what the masses are arguing for here.

In any event I agree with all you have said and hope for Adam's sake my role is better understood. Besides even those who are out to blast me surely will agree with me that Adam has done a better job than I defending himself. I am done with this thread so fire away boys you get the last word...just like my wife