quote:

Originally posted by AfricanHunter:
Well, I guess I'll be taking an unpopular position or saying an unpopular thing, but so be it.
The PH was entirely wrong for telling Richard to shoot the little elephant. BUT, and it's a very big but Richard should have known it wasn't a proper sized trophy. I don't care if it was his first trip to Africa! A trip to any zoo that keeps elephants should have clued him in as to how big an adult elephant will be. (Even and elephant from the species in India that one sees in a circus are big animals compared to what he pulled the trigger on. In my opinion, anybody that calls themselves a trophy hunter should have some idea what a trophy looks like, then consider the advice of the guide or PH at the moment of decision. Naturally, when being charged by a dangerous animal, all bets are off and you shoot to kill. However, I read nothing of a threat to life in the case of the elephant being discussed that Richard shot.

Therefore, I cannot agree with those of you demanding full refund to Richard.

Just for the record, my elephant hunting experience spans 39 years. And I can assure you I knew the diference between little elephants and big Ivory & big elephants before I went the first time.

And to my friends that have posted here, such as Buzz that has posted here, I say well done.

I stand by.

I guess that like Dawnroar Adam has you on retainer too? I hate passive-aggressive behavior.

quote:

Originally posted by Robert Wilde:

quote:

Originally posted by AfricanHunter:
Well, I guess I'll be taking an unpopular position or saying an unpopular thing, but so be it.
The PH was entirely wrong for telling Richard to shoot the little elephant. BUT, and it's a very big but Richard should have known it wasn't a proper sized trophy. I don't care if it was his first trip to Africa! A trip to any zoo that keeps elephants should have clued him in as to how big an adult elephant will be. (Even and elephant from the species in India that one sees in a circus are big animals compared to what he pulled the trigger on. In my opinion, anybody that calls themselves a trophy hunter should have some idea what a trophy looks like, then consider the advice of the guide or PH at the moment of decision. Naturally, when being charged by a dangerous animal, all bets are off and you shoot to kill. However, I read nothing of a threat to life in the case of the elephant being discussed that Richard shot.

Therefore, I cannot agree with those of you demanding full refund to Richard.

Just for the record, my elephant hunting experience spans 39 years. And I can assure you I knew the diference between little elephants and big Ivory & big elephants before I went the first time.

And to my friends that have posted here, such as Buzz that has posted here, I say well done.

I stand by.

I guess that like Dawnroar Adam has you on retainer too? I hate passive-aggressive behavior.

Robert, sorry to have to tell you I am on no person retainer list. I call it as I see it.

quote:

Originally posted by AfricanHunter:
Well, I guess I'll be taking an unpopular position or saying an unpopular thing, but so be it.
The PH was entirely wrong for telling Richard to shoot the little elephant. BUT, and it's a very big but Richard should have known it wasn't a proper sized trophy. I don't care if it was his first trip to Africa! A trip to any zoo that keeps elephants should have clued him in as to how big an adult elephant will be. (Even and elephant from the species in India that one sees in a circus are big animals compared to what he pulled the trigger on. In my opinion, anybody that calls themselves a trophy hunter should have some idea what a trophy looks like, then consider the advice of the guide or PH at the moment of decision. Naturally, when being charged by a dangerous animal, all bets are off and you shoot to kill. However, I read nothing of a threat to life in the case of the elephant being discussed that Richard shot.

Therefore, I cannot agree with those of you demanding full refund to Richard.

Just for the record, my elephant hunting experience spans 39 years. And I can assure you I knew the diference between little elephants and big Ivory & big elephants before I went the first time.

And to my friends that have posted here, such as Buzz that has posted here, I say well done.

I stand by.

AfricanHunter,

I have hunted with many people who were on their first African safari, and I would guarantee you 99% of the would never argue with what their PH told them to shoot.

Those of us who have had a few safaris under our belt, have the advantage of what to expect, and we can discuss it with those we hunt with.

Individuals on their first African hunt normally havfe no idea what size an animal is, which is a trophy and which is not.

That is precisely why they follow their PH's instructions.

This year one of my friend, who has been with us on safari several times, has never seen a sable before.

When he saw the sable I shot this year, he was very surprised on its size.

only a thought , maybe a bit of research using any of the "modern media" such as Bodington on Elephant with Ivan Carter, Hunting the African Elephant CM Safaris, Boddington on Buffalo, Africa Most Dangerous by Kevin Robertson, The Perfect Shot by Kevin Robertson could have helped avoid the entire, you did, I did, you said and I say situation, Total Cost under $300.00 Australian
and for any records I am a "newbie" on this site, but does that make my opinion any more or LESS valuable. Though i must admit keeping up with it all has improved my non exist computer skills

IMO it is much easier to estimate the size of the animal when it is in a group than it is when it is standing alone as my ele was.

Up to that point i still thought my PH walked on water. I felt i had no choice but to do what my PH instructed me to do.

It's real easy to see things clearly after the fact. Now i know better but now is too late.
I was their standing in my shoes, you were not.

If if ands and buts were candy and nuts all of our pockets would be full.

I guess if this ele turns out to be a cow, that will be my fault too?

Saeed, is there anyway to save this thread some how so someone going to Africa for the first time could read and learn what to do, what to look out for and most importantly what not to do? There is lot of great information here!

IMO if i could have read all this before i went i would have been a lot more informed and maybe could have averted some of the pitfalls.

If it would save just one person from ever having to go through what i am it would be worth alot.

AG

We do not delete any threads off the African Hunting Forum,so this should be accessible to anyone who searches for it.

On my 1st trip to Africa my bullet was on it's way before my PH even finished saying "Shoot".

Ridiculous to blame All Gone for shooting.

quote:

Originally posted by AfricanHunter:
Well, I guess I'll be taking an unpopular position or saying an unpopular thing, but so be it.
The PH was entirely wrong for telling Richard to shoot the little elephant. BUT, and it's a very big but Richard should have known it wasn't a proper sized trophy. I don't care if it was his first trip to Africa! A trip to any zoo that keeps elephants should have clued him in as to how big an adult elephant will be. (Even and elephant from the species in India that one sees in a circus are big animals compared to what he pulled the trigger on. In my opinion, anybody that calls themselves a trophy hunter should have some idea what a trophy looks like, then consider the advice of the guide or PH at the moment of decision. Naturally, when being charged by a dangerous animal, all bets are off and you shoot to kill. However, I read nothing of a threat to life in the case of the elephant being discussed that Richard shot.

Therefore, I cannot agree with those of you demanding full refund to Richard.

Just for the record, my elephant hunting experience spans 39 years. And I can assure you I knew the diference between little elephants and big Ivory & big elephants before I went the first time.

And to my friends that have posted here, such as Buzz that has posted here, I say well done.

I stand by.

It's easy preach on what you would do after the fact. I propose that most, if not all of us can not predict what we would do in any given situation no matter how much we prepare ourselves. Look at the stats on how many hits are registered on LEO shoot outs and these guys train for this all the time. When the adrenalin flows the brain sees and operates differently. So africanhunter, do not presume what you would have done in AG's case because you can not, no one can. Not even AG and he was there.

quote:

Originally posted by AfricanHunter:
...but Richard should have known it wasn't a proper sized trophy. I don't care if it was his first trip to Africa!...I knew the diference between little elephants and big Ivory & big elephants before I went the first time.

I can't begin to remember the number of whitetail bucks that I shot in my youth that I KNEW were giant trophies...but which then suffered from such extensive ground shrinkage as to cause them to appear like fawns when I actually walked up on them! These were whitetails, i.e. a species that I see on almost a daily basis year-round right on my own property. The excitement of the hunt, combined with the desire to see and shoot a trophy, added to the mental visualization of said trophy, all conspired to turn every antlered deer into a Booner...until he was on the ground. Black bears are another example of an animal that I have hunted all my life, but still require some careful and dispassionate observation to accurately judge when presented with a shot opportunity. You see what you want to see.

So how can you possibly state, with a straight face, that a first-time African hunter in the field, faced with an elephant which his PH is urging him to shoot, should instead coolly consult his mental file of elephant reference snapshots and decide to pass? You can do this? Congratulations...are you a robot? I think most mere mortals would react just as I would, and as AG did. They would hear "Shoot!" uttered by the PH that they are paying to make exactly these type of judgment calls, and they would send a bullet. I didn't hunt elephant, but I know that I hesitated only long enough on every African animal to ascertain that I was indeed looking at the same critter as the PH and that I had a clear shot. After that...BANG!

John

quote:

Originally posted by AfricanHunter:

A trip to any zoo that keeps elephants should have clued him in as to how big an adult elephant will be. (Even and elephant from the species in India that one sees in a circus are big animals compared to what he pulled the trigger on.

Maybe he should have ridden one and fed it peanuts while he was there to be able to REALLY understand what a big elephant looks like?

Is this really the best defense for the mistake the PH made is to tell a first time African hunter that he should have gone to the zoo before embarking on a safari? I laugh just thinking about the conversation that would have gone down with the PH's before the hunt as he pulls out zoo pictures when explaining expectations.

Maybe the PH needs to go to the zoo

Drummond

quote:

Originally posted by All Gone:

Up to that point i still thought my PH walked on water. I felt i had no choice but to do what my PH instructed me to do.

I have been following this thread and have not felt the need to reply with my limited (one timer) experience in Africa. However, this particular sentence and the fact that 1st timers to Africa may indeed believe this to be the fact concerns me.

I would hope AG, that you realize now that is not in fact the case. You and you alone are responsible for the payment of the trophy fee, the elephant in this case not withstanding. If the PH puts you on an animal he deems worth taking but you don't, it's your call to not shoot, after all you're the one footing the bill. If the PH puts you on an animal but you're not comfortable with the shot, then don't shoot because one again you're footing the bill even if the animal is not recovered.

On my first safari, on what was really "bonus" hunting time on the day of my arrival, we came across 3 Nyala bulls, 2 of which were shooters. After about a 20 minute stalk, we got pretty close to the bulls. The first one available was the lesser of the two shooters, but I would have taken him. However, the light was fading fast and Nyala are dark colored making the situation worse. And finally he was presenting a frontal shot with a fair amount of thick bush around him. My PH calmly told me if I felt comfortable with the shot, to go ahead and take him. I just could not pick out a spot on that bull that I could feel good about pulling the trigger. So, I told my PH that I wasn't comfortable with it and I wanted to wait for a better shot. His reply, "No problem, we'll wait this out." About that time the other two bulls were moving in and the largest of the three presented a broadside shot when he passed through an opening in the bush. He was recovered about 40 yards from where he was shot.

Now again with my limited experience known, I'd still like to think that most PH's would respect my wish to not take a shot that I was not comfortable with. It's my integrity and my dollars on the line. If I ever hunt with a PH that pressures me to take a shot I'm not good with, well all I can say is we will be having a discussion about who makes the final decision to pull the trigger.

EDIT: Having re-read my post I want to just make sure that it is clear that I'm not trying to criticize AG. This thread may be read by would first timers and would hope that they indeed do not go on safari thinking they must shoot if the PH says too. It would certainly be a tight spot to be in having the PH putting the pressure on you to pull the trigger even though your own mind is telling you not too.

I don't fault AG from shooting the elephant at his PH's insistance. As mentioned in my previous post, I had the same thing happen to me on my first DG hunt in 2005 in Russia with a Brown Bear. In my opinion, the guides were more concerned with their 100% success rate since 1992 instead of getting everyone a real trophy. Actually had a similar thing happen again in 2008 on my first leopard in Southern Zim. PH told me to shoot and ended up with a female! This one was an honest mistake by the PH, I think. Here is the difference in my mind.

1) I realized that even though I was influenced to shoot the bear, (not strong enough word), I pulled the trigger. So I paid for it. Same on the leopard hunt. No questions asked except was there an opportunity to take a second bear (up to that time in Russia, most guys got a chance at 2 bears if they wanted). But they had stopped issuing the second tag in the previous season I was to find out. Since my leopard hunt was at the end of the season with no other hunters coming in, there was a second leopard available on quota. It was offered to me but at full price. I didn't have the $'s so I passed and never looked back. I'm not sure I would have felt right about taking 2 cats on the same hunt anyway. I don't know, it was on quota but something just didn't seem right about it even if I had the cash.

2) I did not engage in bribing the guides in order to get a chance at another animal. Did I mention that I mistakenly shot this small bear on the FIRST day of the hunt after anticipating the trip for 2 years! Discouraged and embarrassed doesn't even begin to describe my feelings. Man, I dreaded speaking to my wife and friends back home to tell them how bad I screwed up after waiting so long and spending so much money. I felt like crap and wondered if international hunting was for me after all.

3) I didn't call out on a public forum, the outfitter / booking agent who was not in the field with me for screwing me around while he was trying to clean up my mess.

4) On the bear hunt, I didn't go on to take other fine trophies on this same trip and then call out the outfitter / booking agent who was not in the field with me for screwing me around while he was trying to clean up my mess.

The ele was not AG's fault entirely and was an honest mistake on his part as he didn't know any better, not an honest mistake on the PH's part. The bribe was not his fault entirely either, but he participated knowing it was illegal and just plain not the right thing to do! Not an honest mistake on his or the PH's part. 1st hunt or 100th, it matters not. Right is right and wrong is wrong. Then to call Adam out in public while he is trying to fix the mess, and do so in a manner as to portray himself as the innocent first timer with no issues to hide ... doesn't sit well with me. If it sits well with you, let's you and I not go hunting together, OK?

I knew guys like this in the military. You know, the ones that make themselves look good by making others look bad! We called those guys OneWay. Maybe that should be AG's new handle, OW!

Saeed has summed it up well, and has been quoted and elaborated on well by members here.

I just want to vent some spleen.

Re: Wayne Dietrechsen & Tim Lamprecht of Jimba Safaris

Tim L. ("L" is for "Loser") has serious psychiatric issues and criminal acts galore, judging only by what is reported here, and not denied by multiple parties on either side of this fiasco.
Tim L. is not qualified to be a PH, nor even to carry a loaded firearm, for his own safety as well as the safety of the innocent.
Hopefully ZPHA takes care of this soon.

Wayne D.: "D" for ... dishonorable, delinquent, dereliction of duty, dumbass?
This entire fiasco started with Wayne D.'s failures, if we are to believe Adam C.'s recounting here.

Understandable that Wayne and Tim cohabit in their den of theivery and dishonesty, but why would Adam C. have any dealings with them, infamous as they are?

Richard, AG, if Adam C. sent you more than 9K USD refund of your payments to him, that is probably the end of it.
Good luck with getting anymore satisfaction out of this FIASCO.
Don't let punks and criminals corrupt you any further.
Move on.

Ron The Unforgiven

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Then to call Adam out in public while he is trying to fix the mess,

With all due respect to you and Adam... You have a right to your opinion and Adam may have been "trying to fix the mess", but the fact that Adam had already sent the trophy fee for the elephant makes it really had to believe that he was doing anything other that hoping AG would give up and move on.

Let's just assume for a second that Adam was really trying to resolve this problem with Wayne. Do you believe that it is possible that Adam simply "forgot" to tell the financial department to withhold payment to Wayne(while he was working so had to get a refund)?

To me it really looks like Adam payed the bill in full hoping that the problem with AG would just go away.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Richard, AG, if Adam C. sent you more than 9K USD refund of your payments to him, that is probably the end of it.

Of the $9k refund nearly $6.5K was unused prepaid trophy fees.

It looks like Adam refunded:
$1,800 (Adam's commission)
$3,000 (Trophy fee for the bribed buffalo)
$1,500 (Tip for the PH) All Gone, were you really going to tip this POS $1,500!?
$3,323 (other unused prepaid fees from the $10K AG left with Adam)
=$9,632 refund Adam sent AG

I believe that Adam's current resolution is very fair(including the credits for a future hunt). I really don't believe this would have been resolved as fairly if All Gone had kept quiet.

quote:

Originally posted by Adam Clements:

It has also been mentioned what I have personally offered which is my commission of $1,800, $5,000 credit for a TZ safari if he so wishes, if he wants to do the repeat safari, I will pay out of my pocket the PH fees for another PH. Even after I found out about the Buffalo and was suppose to send that money as trophy fee, I did not and returning the $3,000 to Richard. That is $4,800 in cash I am returning, plus we are returning the $1,500 cash that he wanted to tip Tim with (which he never asked to be refunded), plus the offer of credit for $5,000. I do not see what more I personally can do with the way the situation has turned out which was all out of my control and should have never happened in the first place. My office sent Richard a check for $9,632 refund and he still has the option of using $5,000 credit toward another safari in TZ.

All the he said, she said, issues aside. A hunter, especially a hunter new to an animal, an area, etc, etc, is and should be 100% reliant on his guide/PH to make sure he shoots only a respectable/mature/reasonable trophy, period! The hunter in the case of this elephant, did exactly what he was expected to do - listen to his PH.

Guys, in almost 20 years of guiding hunters all over the west, for animals/species that many of them have hunted lots of times before. I can tell you without any question, 90% of the time, the hunter has absolutely no idea what he's looking at, how big it is (or isn't), etc, etc. The hunters simply just don't know, period! Nor should they be expected to either, that's what a quality guide (professional) is there for, and what the hunter is paying for. Sure, we all can make a mistake, but that elephant is no mistake, that's just a PH who doesn't give a damn!!

So to think that a first-time African hunter should be expected to know a big elephant from a little one, just isn't fair or accurate to the hunter. As for all the other stuff, I have no idea, and no opinion, as I know nothing of the facts and that wasn't really my point. But just as Drummond has mentioned, the PH is absolutely, positively, 100% responsible for the baby elephant, end of story!

Some of you guys have a short memory.

AG said from the very beginning, "Mistakes happen i know but when they happen at this magnitude than someone ought to man up and come forward and make it right. I will gladly take half the blame but i was not the only one there. There is always plenty of blame to go around." Consistent with his "I will gladly take half of the blame" position, he only sought a refund of HALF of the $10,000 TF.

He accepted that he pulled the trigger and was responsible ON PAGE ONE. That's not changed. It was admirable then and it still is. Personally, I'd tell the PH and outfitter that they can keep the ivory, I ain't paying, period. All Gone apparently is much more magnanimous than I.

The calf elephant is indefensible, period. No amount of smoke, mirrors, innuendo, second guessing, or attacks on AG changes the fact that a horribly immature, possibly female, and otherwise wholly indefensible animal was shot as a trophy and that it would not have been shot but for the PH putting up the sticks and telling AG to shoot.

This elephant is on the PH.

Thats the question that i have. Why did he not stop the payment as soon as he seen the pics of the ele. He said he was furious but he didn't seem mad at all when i talked with him. All he said was "yes the ele is small".

I ain't buying, "I got so busy i forgot" excuse either. Adam knew from the get go that Wayne wasen't going to refund anything because Adam told me so. Sounded to me that they had this kind of issue before and Adam already knew the answer.

I'm new at this but why does it take so long for negotiations to happen between the agent and outfitter? Why wouldn't the outfitter be able to make up their mind in a few days or a week if they were going to give a refund or not? To me it is just stalling and buying time maybe in the hopes the client will give up or settle for less.

AG

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Then to call Adam out in public while he is trying to fix the mess,

With all due respect to you and Adam... You have a right to your opinion and Adam may have been "trying to fix the mess", but the fact that Adam had already sent the trophy fee for the elephant makes it really had to believe that he was doing anything other that hoping AG would give up and move on.

Let's just assume for a second that Adam was really trying to resolve this problem with Wayne. Do you believe that it is possible that Adam simply "forgot" to tell the financial department to withhold payment to Wayne(while he was working so had to get a refund)?

To me it really looks like Adam payed the bill in full hoping that the problem with AG would just go away.

Jason, you missed my point entirely. Don't just pull a portion of the sentence out to quote. Read the entire sentence. Then if it sits well with you, the next sentence applies to you, OK?

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

Jason, you missed my point entirely. Don't just pull a portion of the sentence out to quote. Read the entire sentence. Then if it sits well with you, the next sentence applies to you, OK?

Todd
You are correct. I took the quote out of context and it lost your original meaning.

I should not have quoted you, I just wanted to clarify my point which was: AG had every right to bring this public(I know that you were not saying that he shouldn't go public, but others are). It is clear that he was not satisfied that his agent had his best interests at heart.

As to AG's character, I can understand people having a problem with how he handled some things(buffalo, etc.) I can also read between the lines and as much as the PH is/was a POS I can also see that other things were at play. Regardless there is NO excuse for the PH to have AG shoot the elephant calf.(Edited, thanks Aaron)

And I may be the only one here who has a problem with AG tipping his PH $1,500, but come-on. If he was really as bad as AG says, why in the world would he send him a tip?

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

Regardless there is NO excuse for the PH to have AG shoot the client.

Man, I really must have missed something!! Now we're shooting people too???

quote:

Maybe the PH needs to go to the zoo

On to Chapter 2:
If AG does actually import his trophies, would that not make him a potential felon due to a lacey act violation, which would also incriminate Adam Clemens for his part?

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:
:
If AG does actually import his trophies, would that not make him a potential felon due to a lacey act violation, which would also incriminate Adam Clemens for his part?

The lacey act covers transportation of illegal animal products(Poached trophies, etc).

What would AG be importing that is illegal?

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:
:
If AG does actually import his trophies, would that not make him a potential felon due to a lacey act violation, which would also incriminate Adam Clemens for his part?

The lacey act covers transportation of illegal animal products(Poached trophies, etc).

What would AG be importing that is illegal?

There is the possibility that ivory was from a cow and not a bull, thus making it non-exportable. There has also been the implication (way back somewhere in this thread) that substitute ivory was offered as part of a settlement. Where this substitute ivory would come from was not answered.

I believe AG made it clear that he had no intention of taking Wayne up on his offer. I think that he just mentioned it to show what a slime-ball Wayne is.

quote:

Originally posted by All Gone:
That might explain why Wayne asked Adam if he wanted him to ship bigger tusks back. When Adam asked me this i said hell no i don't want someone elses tusks! Then both Adam and i wondered where he would get another set of tusks??? I wouldn't think that you would have extras lying around, but with these guys, i suppose anything is possible.

You think they won't send the tusks from my ele? Maybe it's best in the end.

AG

It sounds like AG is saying that Adam offered him this as an option. I really hope that I am reading this wrong, or that AG is mistaken.

If Adam did offer this as an option....

I was thinking that Buzz is right and has great reports here on AR. I looked at his website: http://www.cmsafaris.com/ to get more info and I noticed that he is affilited with Global Marketing Consultants, LLC, as in "in association with Global Marketing Consultants, LLC" Is this just a coincidence of names?

quote:

SEC v. David William Thomas and Global Marketing Consultants, LLC, Civ. No. 08-CV-02026-REB-MJW (D. Colo.) (filed September 19, 2008)
SEC Brings Fraud Charges Against David William Thomas and Global Marketing Consultants, LLC The Securities and Exchange Commission ("Commission") charged David William Thomas ("Thomas"), of Loveland, Colorado, with misappropriating investor funds through two fraudulent investment schemes. According to the Commission's complaint, filed September 19, in federal district court in Denver, Colorado, from at least June 2002 through February 2005, Thomas, through his company, Global Marketing Consultants, LLC ("GMC"), offered and sold unregistered securities in the form of investment contracts, and raised approximately $6.3 million from over 140 investors nationwide.

and I would not do business with ACST- my good friend was invited to a dinner that they hosted only to see gifts of dozens of elephant hair bracelets being handed out to prospective clients-This was in Reno, Nevada. I assume that this was not completely legit unless these were from Elephants that ACST personally shot?

From someone else on another thread:

quote:

Elephant are protected by CITES Appendix 1 - this means that any part of an elephant can only be legally owned under cover of a CITES permit.

Hunter 54

Fortunately it is a pure and unfortunate coincidence of names and was bought to our attention for the first time by a concerned client last season!

I can assure you if I was that way inclined and had anything to do with "Thomas" I certainly would not be trying to make a living hunting but enjoying my ill gotten gains living under a different name in the Seychelles!!!

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

The lacey act covers transportation of illegal animal products(Poached trophies, etc).

What would AG be importing that is illegal?

The kudu shot from the vehicle and bushbuck shot from the boat perhaps?

Jason,

I never intended to give Tim a 1500 dollar tip.

Before the hunt took place i figured on tipping 1500. 100 a day for this type of hunt seemed to me to be about right. I was ready to tip more if things turned out fantastic. Well as you see it didn't.

At the end of the hunt after dinner and a few drinks Tim asked me how much his tip was going to be. He stated that Wayne had asked him to ask me how much the tip would be so Wayne could add it to the bill. I thought that was very tacky but was very happy with the leopard at the moment and told Tim 1500.

After returning home i told Adam that the 1500
tip would be held until my trophys were safely in the states with no unusualy high dipping, packing or shipping fees and i knew they were in good shape.

Adam said OK thats fine send me an email stating all this and i will forward it to Wayne. So that is what we did.

The dipping and packing is a whole different story.

At the beginning of the hunt there was a nice canvas bag in my chalet with a new pair of gaitors in it and a brochure of a different taxidermy co. than the one i was going to use.

I thought that was very nice but never give it a whole lot of thought at the time.

About half way through the hunt i mentioned the taxi co. i wanted to use for dipping and packing. Tim said no no no you must not use them. He went on for quit some time telling me why i should avoid them and go with the folks that left me the nice gifts. Tim was clearly not going to take no for an answer. Wayne already had the taxi co. coming to pick up the trophys on the last day of the hunt so i agreed.

After returning home and telling Adam this he said that what Tim had told me about the other taxi co. was not true at all but my trophys should be fine with the other folks.

At this point i don't know what is going on!!

That is why i said keep the 1500 until i know my trophys are safe. Like i said i never intended to give Tim a 1500 dollar tip.

AG

I wasen't awhere that shooting from the vehicle or the boat were illigal.

How does one know what is legal or not on a hunt in Zim. Is it my obligation to find this stuff out or should the PH point these things out and not allow it to happen?

If it is my responsibity i was not told this before hand by ACST. Should i assume that it was not ACST's responsibity either?

Is it possible that it is all taken for granted?

AG

quote:

Originally posted by All Gone:
I wasen't awhere that shooting from the vehicle or the boat were illigal.

How does one know what is legal or not on a hunt in Zim. Is it my obligation to find this stuff out or should the PH point these things out and not allow it to happen?

If it is my responsibity i was not told this before hand by ACST. Should i assume that it was not ACST's responsibity either?

Is it possible that it is all taken for granted?

AG

AG:

In all fairness I do not believe you or any other client for that matter is obliged to know the hunting regulations for each and every country they visit though there is nothing preventing you from asking the outfitter to send you a copy to browse through while killing time in anticipation of your hunt - otherwise this is the PHs job.

Common sense however should prevail most of the time.

quote:

I wasen't awhere that shooting from the vehicle or the boat were illigal.

In most places hunting regulations forbid shooting from a vehicle, from or near permanent water sources except for species common to water with exception maybe on private land and at the sole discretion of the landowner/rancher/farmer.

However, there have been and will be numerous cases of clients who cannot walk; some not at all because they are crippled, others due to obesity cannot make more than 50 paces before they collapse and last but not least, those very senior folk who because of old age can hardly get out of the vehicle, let alone walk, and are probably on their LAST hunt.

I know of one such individual who is about to flip the page at 100 years and hunts Tanzania annually.
While the laws may be in place, I have reservations that the authorities impose them
and of course, as the good old saying goes: "what happens in the bush stays in the bush"

quote:

Originally posted by All Gone:
I wasen't awhere that shooting from the vehicle or the boat were illigal.

How does one know what is legal or not on a hunt in Zim. Is it my obligation to find this stuff out or should the PH point these things out and not allow it to happen?

If it is my responsibity i was not told this before hand by ACST. Should i assume that it was not ACST's responsibity either?

Is it possible that it is all taken for granted?

AG

It is certainly not your responsibility to know what is/isn't legal. Nor is it ACST responsibility to inform you. IT IS 100% THE PH'S RESPONSIBILITY! To suggest that you are responsible for any of this madness is absurd.

I see a disturbing trend starting to gain traction here. Too many of us are starting to hold Richard more and more accountable for problems on this hunt, to a point that the real problem has taken a back seat.

Everyone says, "listen to your ph, he will know best" nobody here says ,"listen to your ph unless he is wrong."

Anybody who has real African experience knows the PH's word is highly regarded, especially on your first safari! I would guess that the vast majority of us would not know to question the ph if he suggested something.

Richard did as he was told. Paid the game scout as he was asked to. Wasn't his idea to pay the game scout. He was just following his PH's advice.

Yes, it was a mistake, but not one so agregious that the ph now gets a pass for all his screw ups. I can't believe that 95% of us on our first safari would have known any better.

"When in Rome ..."

As for the Elephant, I am sure if it was in a position that Richard could have seen its size, and recognized it as a calf, the PH certainly would have recognized it as a calf. Ph screwed that up not Richard.

So cut the new guy some slack for following his PH's advice. PH Tim screwed the pooch here not Richard.

What Wendell said....

It would seem that Wayne Dietrechsen & Tim Lamprecht are still an "item". Appears to be deleted now, but there was a "late season special" on the hunts offered board for a DG hunt with Jimbah Safaris which was submitted after this thread started.
Caveat Emptor!
JCHB

quote:

Originally posted by Buzz Charlton:
Hunter 54

Fortunately it is a pure and unfortunate coincidence of names and was bought to our attention for the first time by a concerned client last season!

I can assure you if I was that way inclined and had anything to do with "Thomas" I certainly would not be trying to make a living hunting but enjoying my ill gotten gains living under a different name in the Seychelles!!!

Great sense of humor! I am relieved to hear that.

From what I've read so far Buzz, you seem to be one of the few that seem to hold very high standards and are very values/integrity focused. Thank you.

quote:

Originally posted by David Hulme:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike70560:

quote:

Does anyone here who knows anything at all about Africa think for a minute that Adam or any other PH would have done anything different than the one in question did with a first time African hunter and a wounded buff?

I do not believe it. Nor would I even consider it. My wife's first big animal was an eland. She wounded it and we tracked it all day until we lost the blood trail. It was never even a question that we would pay the trophy fee. She was upset, not about the trophy fee, but for the animal suffering. That is what a hunter should do.

100% Mike. And I know dozens and dozens of hunters who would never consider not paying for their wounded animal. People with honor, values and substance, the people who actually do keep the wheel turning. None of the PH's or clients I have had the pleasure of hunting with would consider getting involved in this crap - any of the crap that has surfaced lately on the various Zim threads. And if they did (yes I do know a few who do/have), I would not be hunting with them anymore. May not mean much to them as they fill their bank accounts with ill gotten gain, but it is true that the only constant is change. When core values are lost, when the difference between right and wrong becomes so blurred that there is no longer a difference, then only strict disciplinary action can help that person to change his ways.

This is not ours to abuse, we are generational guardians and some people are abusing that privilege. Call me a dreamer and idealist and I will call you (lawbreaking hunter) a dirty rotten scoundrel who will, sooner or later, be brought to book.

Thank you Saeed and thank you honorable hunting members for helping to bring to light this unacceptable lawlessness in our wildlife areas.

To those 'but I've got a permit' guys, you needn't have that permit, why did you buy it when you knew it was the 5th tag in an area which has, for 40 years, been allocated 1 tag.... Remember and ponder upon the basic fundamentals your parents taught you in your first few years of life. Bloody riffraff.

To those who are doing what they can to bring a halt to the unacceptable situation in many of our wildlife areas, I commend you, as do the vast majority of Zimbabweans. Future generations will thank you.

David Hulme

Well said Dave right is right and wrong is wrong and you dont need a ph or a phd to know which is which.

and is it not always funny to see how these things surface when it should not and they always do. i know a guy who went overseas had a fling on his trip when he landed back home his wife gave him her whole pedigree before she even said hallo .his mother in law saw him and the chic while watching the cricket on tv shows you that 2000miles is nothing in todays tecnology

quote:

Originally posted by JCHB:
It would seem that Wayne Dietrechsen & Tim Lamprecht are still an "item". Appears to be deleted now, but there was a "late season special" on the hunts offered board for a DG hunt with Jimbah Safaris which was submitted after this thread started.
Caveat Emptor!
JCHB

I think the booking agent that posted that hunt was unaware of this outfit's bad reputation. He said he has no wish to be associated with them.