I have been a member for less than a year.In that time i have learned many things about hunting in Africa from those who post here. I did not post questions here because after reading everything i could on here i thought that i was ready for Africa.

I recently got back from a hunt in Zim. that i booked through a well known booking agent.

I don't consider my hunt to be a bad one. It's that i think it could have been much better than it was due to the actions and behavior of my PH. I won't get into all that happened here but would like to enter a hunting report to let others know about what went on with the PH and hunting outfit so they can make up their own minds whether or not to book a hunt with them in the future.

My concern is my trophys. At this time they are still in Zim. and the booking agent is helping to get things worked out for there shipment home.

The hunt took place in the last half of Sep.. I have not recieved a final bill for the hunt yet.

My main question is when do you think it would be the best time to enter a hunt report? After the money has been sorted out? I did ask for trophy money back because because of the issues with the PH and him telling me,{ not asking if i wanted it or talking it over at all} to shoot an Ele. that was much smaller than i was told was average for the area.After telling this to the booking agent he said there was about 0% chance of ever getting money back. He said ultamatly it was my decision to pull the trigger or not.

Or when i know my trophys are shipped and on there way here?

At this point i'm not sure who i can trust.
I want to trust the booking agent, but trying to get info from him is like pulling teeth. I know he has talked to the owner of the hunt co.
but has not shared any info with me. I think he would like to put this behind him ASAP and move on. And wants me to chaulk it up to an expensive education and get over it.

Tell me what you think,good or bad.

Thanks,
All Gone

One of the reasons this site exists is to help others avoid "expensive educations", identify situations that other AR members should avoid, and ask advice in how to solve problems. So, other then a lawyer's advice recommending non-disclosure when a negotiated settlement or litigation is under way, you might as well tell it all.

I should add that, in my experience, you will get fairly opiniated replies, some of it worthwhile and the result of extensive experience, but not necessarily "friendly". Forums are like that.

All Gone,

I guess you must realize that this is an international forum so basically you've already let the cat out of the bag so to speak and made your intent to write a negative report quite clear.

Mark

This doesn't sound good.

Regarding the agent.....

quote:

I think he would like to put this behind him ASAP and move on.

Then he ought to be working on your behalf to finalize the bill & get your trophies to you ASAP. This would at least help his reputation.

I bet he was at your beck and call before you booked....

If the PH was less than a "professional" professional hunter I am sure others here would like to know how he treats clients.

I would get my trophies & bill sorted out then file a report. The trophies would matter more to me than venting my spleen at this point and I wouldn't want any "unexpected" trophy shipment problems to crop up...post report.

I hope it works out for you.

Dave

My suggestion is to try negotiate a fair deal which is amicable to all concerned. Now and again a PH will make a bad call or mistake and I am afraid that is way the cookie crumbles.

Saying that if the PH was consistently at fault then you do have cause for complaint and some sort of compensation.

How much is owed on the hunt? Final bill? Trophies paid? Dipping and packing paid? Do you have a contract? What was promised and what not?
Deduct after you get bill .
Then post the report how you were treated.


Mike

If I can make a suggestion, even if you wait to post the trip report, write it now while all of the facts are still fresh in your mind.

All Gone,

Hell of a first post. Welcome aboard. How many PM's have you gotten?

This sounds eerily familiar. Did you have any travelers checks stolen?

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
.... Now and again a PH will make a bad call or mistake and I am afraid that is way the cookie crumbles....

Have to agree.
Too bad, it does not sound good.
Wish you luck in your negotiations.

Hellova first post. Not many details. There certainly could be some complaints that are legitimate, I just don't have enough information. However, choosing to shoot an animal that is not as good as the average for the area is on the hunter, IMHO. I've gone home empty handed on a number of occasions, but if I shoot it, I owe the trophy fee.

quote:

ultamatly it was my decision to pull the trigger or not.

That is 100% correct and should be written at the top of every contract and tattooed on the PH's forehead.

All Gone, one of the dangers of sitting on this site is that you read well written reports, dripping with honey and all things good of other peoples hunts. They have all bar none been on a few hunts and learned the ropes, paid their school fees and found an operation that works for them.

It was your decision to pull the trigger, and I am sure you have read that written here time and again.

You do have a few things that you should not be happy about, like the lack of finalization of the paperwork etc. But the trophy quality is not one of them.

Once you have sorted out a way forward through courteous dialogue with your agent and PH then post your report in a gentlemanly fashion stating only the facts.
My advice to you is not to get caught up in t he usual AR style shit flinging fight but to conduct yourself as you would like others conduct themselves in dealing with you, and remembering that the hunting world is small.

I can see that you feel things were not delivered in the style they were promised. So my suggestion is to take your contract read it carefully and then make a list of obligations that were not adhered to.
If there are none and it was simply the quality of the PH that was not up to your expectation then you should probably contact a few guys like Saeed, Shakari or Larry Shores and relay your experience to them.
They will tell you whether you were wronged or not. They also have the experience to help, not the armchair experts who would just try to inflame the situation. Did you know many of them have never even been to Africa.

With this info in hand approach the Outfitter directly and speak to him about the service you received. Explain to him what you thought you were paying for.
Who knows, you may just have had a Bum PH that the outfitter would appreciate you telling him about.

Name and shame is a street fight tactic and rarely gets anything accomplished.
If I were in your shoes I would do this now, as when you write your report wouldn't you rather be writing a report of how the problem was amicably resolved rather than trying to bash his reputation into the next century.

There is enough fighting in this world for each of us to never have to go there. So I suggest you take the time to cool the tempers and find a way forward.

Feel free to PM me if you wish to chat
Kind regards
HQ

Thanks for the replys guys.

There is a hunt contract and the only thing in it that pertains to my issues is the fact that the owner/outfitter was to be my PH. The outfitter e-mailed a few days prior to my departure and stated that he had to attend a meeting and would be unable to be my PH for the beginning of the hunt but would take over ASAP after the meeting. That did not happen. He called my PH and told him to tell me that he would stop in and see me during my hunt. That did not happen either. The PH said he was fishing and camping. Thats the reason i do not care to deal with the outfitter. If thats how he wants to do bisness than thats how we will do it. The PH also stated that the outfitter had asked him to ask me how much the tip was going to be for the him so that he could add that to my bill so there would not be any mix up's because earlier i had told the PH i brought enough money for the staff but would send his tip later. I did it that way thinking i would be hunting with the owner and that he would understand and also did not want to carry so much cash. Could that have been part of the problem?

I sent the agent $40,000. $30.000 of it was for the hunt and trophy fees for the animals that i wanted. The rest was prebaiting/bait animals, tip for PH and any other trophys that were taken. I wanted to make sure that everyone involved knew that the money was there and that i was good for what ever i killed. At this time i have no bill or estimate for dippng and packing. The taxidermist part is another issue that i won't get into now.

As far as the ele. trophy fee. I asked for half of it back. The reason for that was because the way i saw it i was told to shoot an ele that was half of what i had told the PH i was willing to shoot. I was told the average was 30 to 35#, so i told the PH i would take a 20 to 25#der or what i could reasonbly expect from the area. As always the bigger the better. The ele i shot was what i guess to be about 10 or 12#. There were no scales in camp and no one has offered an estimate. I feel i am pretty good at guessing weight. The ele was shot on the 3rd day of a 14 day hunt. We were tracking buffalo after bumping them a couple of times. The PH said and these are his words,( We were frustrated with the buff and decided to take it out on the ele).Thats why i don't think it was a mistake. i feel these guys are more worried about the trophy fee than the trophy. IMO when the PH puts up the sticks and says shoot than i figure he is seeing something that i am not and it is time to shoot. Not have a discussion about it. Like i said it was my first time to Africa. now i know and that won't be happening again. Lessen learned. If i get no money back i will understand. I won't like too much but will now know thats the way it works.

When i get hit where it hurts i tend to hit back, but i also know that everybodys different.

Believe me when i tell you that i really wanted to be able to file a great report but things just didn't work out that way.

No it's not Blair worldwide.

Yes i did write everything down,thanks.good point.

I would like very much to settle this amicably. The way i see it the ball is in there court. They have my money, i hope they are fair and take what they feel they deserve and send back the rest.

I guess i have already crossed the line so whatever will be will be. It is what it is.

All Gone

did you pay with travler cheques and I would like to see a photo of your elephant

My goodness. Is US $40,000 typical of hunts these days? Paid in advance?

That's not the way I would do it, even if I weren't a lawyer.

quote:

Originally posted by Anjin:
My goodness. Is US $40,000 typical of hunts these days? Paid in advance?

That's not the way I would do it, even if I weren't a lawyer.

Some booking agents, mine included, recommend placing an amount to cover at least potential trophy fees in "escrow" with them to be released after the hunt in an agreed upon amount per animals shot and the cost. Beats the heck out of traveling with 20,000 - 30,000 and up.

The outfitter can be notified by the booking agent before the hunt that $XXXXXX amount is being held so they can feel comfortable they are actually going to get paid.

HQ,

PM. sent.

All Gone,

Sorry you had a less than perfect experience in Africa. I would appreciate seeing your pictures and hearing your story. Good or bad. I read all the posts and formulate my own opinion as to the validity. Your opinion on your hunt is "yours". It may help me be more prepared next time I talk to a booking agent or PH.

Ski+3

quote:

The ele i shot was what i guess to be about 10 or 12#.

Please do post pics for us all to see for ourselves.

Exactly what did the PH say when he told you to shoot a 10-12lb elephant as you were stalking it and when it came time to shoot?

I do not see where it would hurt to post a pic of the Ele. As soon as i figure out how to post pics here i will do it. Unless somone is willing to let me e-mail them a pic so they can post it. As always i am open to suggetions on how i can post a pic or let me know if doing so is a bad idea.

Thanks,
All Gone

McKay,

I must have been typing the same time you were.
I probably wasen't as clear as what i should have been about shooting the Ele.

We were tracking buffalo when we came across this Ele. He didn't have a clue we were there.
The PH didn't say anything except shoot that Ele side brainer. Bang! That was my Ele hunt.

Thats why i do not feel like it should be 100%
on me. I know most people are skeptical of me and what i am writing and i do not blame you but when you see the picture of the Ele i think some of you will understand my point. I am not trying to destroy
anyone i just want what is IMO a fair outcome.

When i post my hunt report i would very much like to let everyone know we met in the middle and we are all good with it.

No one wants a happy ending to this more than i do. PH's ain't gods, they put there pants one leg at a time just like i do. Mistakes happen i know but when they happen at this magnitude than someone ought to man up and come forward and make it right. I will gladly take half the blame but i was not the only one there. There is always plenty of blame to go around.

Thanks again, looking forward to your replys.

All Gone

If what you say is true the PH allowed you to shoot the elephant. No question - he could have stopped you or said something.

How much was the trophy fee??

You look the part and good shot, but that teenage elephant is an embarrassmt, just like some of the lion I see pictured on this site under the reports. I hope that you can work it out with the agent and meet in the middle. I see you are smiling so at the time you were pleased bute guide should have done better.

That looks like a calf.

quote:

Originally posted by Aspen Hill Adventures:
That looks like a calf.

Cause it is!

I am on your side now...no PH worth his salt would have LET you shoot that calf...much less have told you too! I think you have a bone-to-pick for sure.

Not sure about Zim but here you cannot export ivory under thirty pounds?

Could always get your taxidermist to stick them in a warthog skull?

I feel sorry for you my friend. Yes you did pull the trigger, but you are paying your PH to judge animal quickly. I probably would have done the same thing you did in the same situation.
I don't know about you, but I have never even seen a wild Elephant, let alone judge it's ivory accurately

Fairgame,

Thats ironic because i joked to my friends that i had shot a large warthog instead of an Ele. I thought that was funny until i seen it in writing, now i don't think it's funny anymore.

I really did not think i would have to tell my PH that i only wanted to shoot mature animals.

All Gone

All Gone

You do have a reason to be unhappy with that animal.
I would proceed with trying to get your final bill etc out of the agent/outfitter and then chat to them both about what discount is being applied to your hunt.

Make sure you keep the agent involved. His job is to keep you happy when things get to this so don't let him take his commission and put his feet on the table.

Just so we are clear, I dont care about the tusk, but animal maturity is something that should not be ignored. This was not a mature animal. In the same vane, the quality of the other trophys was not up to standard for a high dollar hunt.

If things do get nasty and you decide to go down the route of naming and shaming as your last resort, you can be sure that it will be very bad for the outfitter and agent concerned.


Good luck
HQ

All Gone,
It looks like they had you shoot some very poor quality animals. I had a similar incident, but with a dik dik. I told my PH that I wanted a 4 inch dik dik or nothing (no jokes please) . My PH told me to shoot one that ended up being under 3 inches and I told him that i wasen't going to pay for it. He agreed. There is a very noticible difference between a 3 inch and 4 inch dik dik. I feel I am paying the PH to make those decisions and when I'm told to shoot an animal I focus on the kill zone and not the horn length. I hope your booking agent and PH do the right thing.

I feel sorry for you really. I have never hunted Africa but that elephant and Kudu are not mature animals.

Does Zim not have PH association who could look at this issue?

I think you should name names and put ALL FACTS on the table.

quote:

Originally posted by Lhook7:
This sounds eerily familiar. Did you have any travelers checks stolen?

Doesn't look like it was about travelers checks eh?

You have VERY legitimate reasons for not paying full fare on this safari. I cannot believe that ANY properly licensed PH in Zim would allow you to shoot a small, immature, juvenile ele like that. Incredible, simply incredible. The kudu is not real trophy quality either for Zim in any sense of the word. Names should be brought forth here on AR, as I for one want to know who is involved in order to steer clear of them. Seeing this makes me very, very angry. This is not only an embarrassment and black eye to all Zim PH's that I personally know and have hunted with, but it is a clear slap in the face to all African Hunters who, in good faith, try to listen to a PH's instructions and rely on their expertise and experience. Shameful at very best. You are a victim here, no question about it. Is it any wonder why there is no real smile on your face in any of the pics?

Oh my... If I where the PH I would be too embarrassed to charge you more than a "non Trophy Ele fee". Even if the such does not exist.

I am sorry to see and read that this hunt did not turn out as you may have expected. There is absolutely no reason that the PH should have let you take that elephant.....It honestly could be mistaken for a cow!!! I hope you can come to an agreement with everyone involved.

Gee All Gone I do feel for you. Sure you pulled the trigger but it is pretty plain to see that that ele is not much more than a baby teenager. I don't know about your other trophies but they don't look to be anything special. I don't want to be critical but you obviously have had a bad time of this and seem to have spent a big sum of money to get to this stage.

I do wonder if 'trophy hunting' does not produce more unhappiness and dissatisfaction than it's worth. Sure I have shot a few good examples of heads only by chance that the animal happened to come along or I came across it, but I have shot far more heads representative of very old animals or animals that have provided a thrilling hunt experience and have had damaged antlers or horns, or I have taken an animal purely for meat.

I don't care for trophies and when I do get to Africa that same philosophy will apply then. I would prefer to stalk and take big old animals with worn or damaged horns and tusks. Not sure about in Africa but in other parts of the World animals have got old because they are cunning and have kept out of harms way so to finally catch up on one of these is an achievement and usually a memorable experience.

Sorry you have had this experience and good luck in your efforts to extract something worthwhile from it all.

Man, I really do feel bad for you! Your face say's it all.

I think that you should 100% put the squeeze on your booking agent, since you will get nowhere dealing with the PH directly. It is def NOT the agent's fault here, but he is the only one who can put pressure on the PH.

Good Luck!