Those B&M cartridge slides are awesome !

I used both of mine all season, every day for five months, interchanging between 500mdm and 458 Lott.

No stretching, and no cartridges lost.

I find the spacing between each cartridge perfect for quick removal, four downward facing fingers removes three cartridges very quickly with no fumbling.
Or three fingers gets two shells.

At the end of the season I gave them a service with standard leather treatment oil and they look as brand new as the day I got them.

Great bit of gear that !

Paul-

Thanks for your input, you likely have more practical field wear on your B&M slides than anyone out there.

Honestly, I've not heard one negative from those who used them in the field during 2012; only positives. I did put a lot of thought into the design and Henry worked hard to execute it perfectly, which he did. Michael placed his first order sight unseen (well maybe he saw a photo of my originals) based upon my endorsement of the first prototypes. He had no regrets and now we have them embossed with the B&M logo. A product that will last a lifetime and is, IMO, second to none in the marketplace.

Carl and I need to come shoot some Buff with you. Maybe 2014.

quote:

Michael,

Just for clarification, where do you plug your hair dryer in when they lossen up while you are on a buffs trail? I have never seen any current bushes in Africa.

465H&H

465HH



Buddy, when I am "Shooting" buffalo, I am so "CHARGED" I could probably just hold any electrical device and I could send enough current through to make it run!!!!!




Paul, good report on the slides. I love them, obviously or I would not endorse them. And, I just got in a bunch of new elephant leather, and 7 full tanned leather buffalo yesterday... So guess what? Having Henry make some more stuff! In fact, I have him working on a double rig of elephant holsters for my matching twin Kimber Super Ultras right now! He is a Master leathersmith!

Mike is right, on his recommendation I sent some stuff to Henry sight unseen. On the same afternoon I received my leather goods I was on the phone to Henry, explained to him what I wanted to do with the B&M logo and have him go to work making slides and slings, he was all in, and in a couple of weeks we had B&M embossing plates. That is how impressed I was, I did not wait a day or two, or a week, or even an hour, I got on the phone immediately. Guys, if you have leather from some of your hunts, contact me and I will give you Henrys number and info, you will be happy with what he does for you regardless of what it is.

The B&M slides fit 500 Nitro well, but not 470s or 450s I don't think. But with a 500, you don't need those others anyway, especially 470s........

Michael

Guess what Sam and I did today?????

How about some new revealing 500 Nitro Load Data? Some new, well almost new, 510 #13 Solids, and 475 NoNCon Data? How about I tell you, that you can now forget about heavy 570 gr bullets in 500 Nitro?

Would you say I was "Insane" if I told you we were running #13 NonCons at near 2600 fps today, in a 500 Nitro Double Rifle?



I will be working on the data first thing in the morning, and maybe I can get enough data entered to make a small presentation to you tomorrow??? I will work on it....

Performance Levels have increased substantially today with 500 Nitro.

Michael

500 Nitro............ There is no need at all for any other cartridge in a double rifle, there is no where to go from here..... The Best of All Double Rifle Cartridges..... End Of Story......

Everything else is Less........ Even if it is More!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
500 Nitro............ There is no need at all for any other cartridge in a double rifle, there is no where to go from here..... The Best of All Double Rifle Cartridges..... End Of Story......

Everything else is Less........ Even if it is More!

Michael

Agree 100%.

Speak to us about regulation with these new lighter loads.

YEP Michael is trying to become a double man. He kept offering me more and more money for my Sabatti as the day went on. Boys now that says something!

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
500 Nitro............ There is no need at all for any other cartridge in a double rifle, there is no where to go from here..... The Best of All Double Rifle Cartridges..... End Of Story......

Everything else is Less........ Even if it is More!

Michael

Hey Michael; are you trying to stir up the pot again

Speak to us about regulation with these new lighter loads.




Best regards

Malek
Good shooting/hunting and God's best

OK guys about the regulation of the lighter bullets. We worked up lots of loads and found the perfect load for my Sabatti with the 510s and 475s. They shot almost into one hole. The 350s did cross but with a little more work we might be able to get it a little better. The best load with the 350 gr was no faster than the 475s so why bother. We did get fantastic velocity with the 350 gr but it crossed at the high velocities. Another gun might shoot them great. Every double is an individual so you have to find that best match for your gun.
I'm sure Michael will get our results posted soon and you will see how well these lighter bullets worked in my 500NE. When I hunted in Australia this past summer we saw how effective the 475 gr non cons were on buffalo and that velocity was about 2100 fps with a tipped non con. The tip makes the velocity say up at shooting distance and made a big difference. I was amazed at how a 535 gr non tipped non con failed to exit buffalo but the 475 tipped noncons exited on every shot. The 475 was far more effective than the heavier 535s were. Not saying there was a problem with the 535s killing just fine. Now the loads we have worked up FAR surpass the 2100 fps I was getting with the 475s on that hunt. We have just upped the bar quite a bit.

Sam

quote:

We have just upped the bar quite a bit.

This will go down as the understatement of 2013 !

quote:

Originally posted by malek:

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
500 Nitro............ There is no need at all for any other cartridge in a double rifle, there is no where to go from here..... The Best of All Double Rifle Cartridges..... End Of Story......

Everything else is Less........ Even if it is More!

Michael

Hey Michael; are you trying to stir up the pot again

Speak to us about regulation with these new lighter loads.




Best regards

Malek
Good shooting/hunting and God's best

Malek,

You are hearing it over and over lately. The truth can only be denied for so long before it is realized! Forget the popularity created by Ruark.

Come on, jump in, the 500NE water's fine!

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by malek:

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
500 Nitro............ There is no need at all for any other cartridge in a double rifle, there is no where to go from here..... The Best of All Double Rifle Cartridges..... End Of Story......

Everything else is Less........ Even if it is More!

Michael

Hey Michael; are you trying to stir up the pot again

Speak to us about regulation with these new lighter loads.




Best regards

Malek
Good shooting/hunting and God's best

Malek,

You are hearing it over and over lately. The truth can only be denied for so long before it is realized! Forget the popularity created by Ruark.

Come on, jump in, the 500NE water's fine!

Hey Todd:


I don't know about that, I have to wait till I hear what Michael and Sam are saying here. Form the sounds of it they are bringing the level of the 500 down to the level of the proper African hunting cartridge, that is the 470 of course.

Best regards

Malek
Good shooting/hunting and God's best.

Malek,

I think you will see that we went way above what the 470 does. Not saying anything bad about the 470 but we got some really good results out of the 500 that will be hard to match in a 470. That bigger bore diameter allows you to get more velocity out of the same weight bullet than a smaller bore.

Sam

I don't own a double rifle, I never have, and most likely never will, just not my thing. I require far more versatility than what a double can provide to me. I suffer no nostalgia, nor desires to own one for any reason. Now, that does not mean I don't like them! As I do, and doubles in BIG BORE, I love, as I love big bore bullets and cartridges, and that is all I can get interested in at all with rifles of any sort. I have NO USE at all for "RAT" calibers............

I have shot enough critters with 416, 458, .474, and .500 to without doubt make this statement;

416 causes animals FAR more trauma than ANY MEDIUM lesser Caliber. 458 Causes animals more Trauma than 416 caliber. I have yet to see a difference in .458 and .474 caliber. .500 causes far more trauma to animals than 458/474. Not only internal damage/trauma........ But ANIMAL REACTIONS to taking the shot.

.500 is King Daddy with my bolt gun cartridges.

In the world of Double Rifles, to me, then 500 Nitro is King Daddy of them all. Its only natural and if you shoot enough animals with various calibers, this will start to show up. Now you can't go shoot one animal with each one and expect to find definitive results, its over several animals taken......

Bullets make a hell of a difference as well...... Yes, one can enhance a smaller caliber with a bullet like a #13 NonCon... but only as compared to a larger caliber with a less desirable type bullet. Both equal, Larger Caliber Wins every time in the long haul...... Ultras? Sure, but Ultras suffer other disadvantages such as weight for one. Give me a 8 lb 20 inch 500 Nitro that will shoot 350s to 510s in the same hole at 50 yards and there is no telling what I might do??????

If Sams Sabatti had put those 350s yesterday closer than 4 inches crossing at 50 yards, say 2 inches, it would not have left home with him..... Especially with the fact that it was shooting the 510/475 #13s at what it was, and how they were shooting........ Yes, its true, I came very close to becoming a double rifle owner yesterday, whether Sam wanted to or liked it or not!!

quote:

bringing the level of the 500 down to the level of the proper African hunting cartridge

Oh No, nothing could be further from the truth!

We are taken levels UP....................

Michael

I want to say this before Michael posts any of the data on the 500 NE tests we did yesterday. These tests were do with my Sabatti double rifle in 500 NE 3 inch. All loads were carefully loaded by me and we increased the charge one grain at a time to be sure we stayed in what I felt were normal safe pressures for my double. We did not have pressure strain gages hooked up so we can not give any actual PSI ratings to these loads. All loads fired in tests showed no signs of over pressure for my double. When opening the gun I would barely crack breech to see how tight cases were in chambers. Cases all fell out of chambers with not sign of sticky extraction. Even before the extractors started to move the cases would fall free. Now this is in my gun with my brass and my powder. Do not think that you can just load up your gun with the same charges and any old bullet weighing the same and think you will be safe. Neither Michael or I are saying these loads will be safe or regulate in your gun. It is your call to decide whether you wish to work up to these loads in your gun.

Sam

Bullet Tech


Bullet tech has taken yet another stride, and now is being applied to "Double Rifles" instead of being only limited to the other actions, bolt at the top of the list........

Oh Sure, Doubles now have the mighty BBW#13, with its superior nose profile, meplat size, banding for reduced barrel strain and pressures, and its mighty matching #13 NonCon HP with the same attributes, designed to work at the same POI with the solids, all major strides forward in bullet tech, and more.

But as we have discovered over the last couple of years, one no longer needs that traditional "Conventional" weights to equal the same performance levels. In fact, we have discovered that we can get far more terminal performance with far lighter bullets than normal conventional wisdom has taught us.

All the BBW#13s have been designed for the doubles around traditional "Conventional" weights, concerns about regulation being of most importance. While there would be some gains made in velocity, because of the less pressures the #13s produce, still we have maintained those traditional weights. And in most ALL cases that I am aware of, not many rifles have had any issue with regulation with any of the #13s regardless of caliber, cartridge or rifle. Most have regulated rather easy. So, it would seem that by keeping these traditional weights we have all been correct on that point concerning regulation.

Last fall Sam decided to break tradition, and had a special run of 510 gr BBW#13 Solids and matching 475 gr BBW#13 NonCon HPs made in .510 caliber for his 500 Nitro..... Loaded the same as the 570/535 gr versions, POI and regulation basically the same in his Sabatti 500 Nitro...

A that same point in time, I changed the cavity thickness of all the .500s and .510s, wider, for LVSP, and better performance. New Talon Tips were made to fit these wider cavities, and the old smaller cavity and tips were discontinued. The new heavy NonCon is now 530 grs, and new tips will not fit the old bullet.

I told Sam add the tip to the 475s, and watch the reactions of buffalo when hit with the higher retained velocity of the 475 over the 535, and both basically starting out at 2100-2150 fps last year in Australia. There was a HUGE difference in not only buffalo reaction, but penetration, and trauma inflicted as well, with the 475 gr #13 NOnCon winning the race by quite a margin. We recovered several of the 535 NonCons in buffalo, but we did not recover 1 475 NonCon, all of them exited regardless. Probably guessing at this, but the 475 with the tip, hit 100-150 fps higher impact velocity than what the 535 did, and it made a hell of a difference, even starting at 2100-2150 fps only!

Now, yesterday, same old Sabatti, only Sam decided to see where we could go with the 510/475 combo. Now, before I go further, a few weeks ago, with the 500 Nitro, we had a test box set up..... Not an official one, or you would have seen it reported, we just kinda threw one together to satisfy our own curious nature, and tested the 570 and 510 solids, side by side in a quickly thrown together terminal box. Both at near the same velocity 2100 or so, penetrated the same distance, with the 510 going about 1 inch further, both well in the low 60 inches of penetration! Both just as dead straight as an arrow, and found dead straight nose forward, absolutely a beautiful thing to behold. This was an unofficial test, not documented, but for our own observations.

Now just what could we do with this new 510/475 combo and what advantages would they produce in performance, recoil, handling, but oh crap, would they regulate? If you can run higher velocity, would they cross? Time to find out.........

The data is available, I am not going to post it here, as the data on the sheets have disclaimers on them. But as always, you must approach data with much care, what Sam and I did yesterday was safe in that Sabatti, and that is the best we can tell you, it might not be safe in your gun, hell it might blow your gun all to HELL for all we know, so if you follow ANY data, start low, work up in your gun. Not all doubles are created equal!

We also DID NOT RUN the pressure trace, I still am not up and running, so all we did was "Case Study", and in NO LOADS TESTED, did we run into any sticky cases, or any issues at all with pressures... But that don't mean you won't! Bear this in mind!

We started with the 510 BBW#13 Solid at 2050 fps and took it all the way to 2320 fps! All tests conducted with RL 15 At no time did they cross at 25 yds, and any load we used from start to end would regulate without issue. At 2320 fps we started seeing some signs of case stress, still not sticky, just getting there. So we dropped back 1 gr. With the 510 #13 Solid we got 2285 fps steady, with no signs of pressure in Sam's Sabatti.

With that established, we moved to the 475 NonCon, however we increased the powder charge by 2 grs!!! Weight equals pressure, less weight, less pressure. We were able to get 2348 fps with the 475 #13 NonCon. No pressure signs, no issues at all, and boy, at 25 yds they are shooting............



At this point, I told Sam that I would give his money back on the Sabatti, and he could leave it with me.

Now, I have NEVER IN MY LIFE, made such an offer on a double rifle, and most likely never will again.... But I did yesterday. LOL........ This was beginning to get my interest.

Now, what does that mean? What that means is with that 475 BBW#13 at 2348 fps, add a tip to maintain higher impact velocities, it is going to knock the SH*T out of buffalo, and I mean knock the life right out of them. I know this, as this is not far under what I run my own .500s at 450 grs at, and you should see the effect on buffalo, ask Paul Truccolo about the 500 MDM and what effect it has on big brawny bovines...... Now, this can be experienced in 500 Nitro.... Penetration? You won't recover any, unless you are full frontal, and even then its going to be way past vitals....... Start at the ass and work forward to find!

Penetration with the 510 Solid at 2285 fps........ Don't look to recover very many, not even from elephant...... Want to consider how that 67% meplat is going to hit an elephant at those higher impact velocities? You can see a difference!

500 Nitro, solids at 2285 fps and NonCons at 2348 fps........... Oh yes, Performance just increased beyond any point in the 500 Nitro's History.......




Michael

The success of the 510/475 was so incredible, nothing would do, but we had to see what we could do with that 350 gr BBW#13 I had made for the bolt guns and the lever guns some time last fall or last year at some point, don't remember......

After we loaded some of the 350s up, I told Sam, that if these would regulate, and did not cross, then I would add another $1000 to my offer on the Sabatti. What I did not tell him, that if this thing would shoot those 350s like it did the 510/475s, the Sabatti was NOT LEAVING THE COMPOUND.........

First load out was a tad over 2400 fps, and they did cross a bit. At 25 yds, it would be NO ISSUE at all, and in fact the POI at 25 yds would work with the 510/475 combo. The very fact it did cross, we had to check it out at 50 yds and see just how much it would be apart. We did, and regardless of all efforts yesterday, it crossed and the two barrels were shooting from 3-4 inches apart, at all velocities from 2300 fps up to nearly 2600 fps. Height, no issues, well within POI..... We only manipulated velocity and nothing more.. Possibly by seating bullet OUT, it might come closer together? Who knows....... Maybe a different powder? We never made it that far, but the potential is most certainly there. A 350 gr #13 at 2500+ from a double rifle would be rather impressive on plains game and such! Especially if it could shoot with the 510/475 combo! We ran into no pressure issues at all, right on up to very near 2600 fps, (2592 fps Actual).

At 25 yards..........





Michael..........

Peep

Mike,
you and Sam have uncovered some extroardinary findings.

I had my suspicions that these lighter slugs had a lot left in them.... simply from the results of shooting some of Sam's left over loads.
I am still nearly three inches apart at 25yds with 2175fps velocity.

You beat me testing these loads by a few days as I was going down the range this week-end to try them !

This is absolutely ground breaking.

The vels you have recorded for the 475 non-con and 510gn solid transforms the .500 into an absolute dinasaur slayer with two barrels !

I remember well when Sam switched out to the lighter slugs on the hunt this year and am flabberghasted to consider what the 475gns will do at 2300fps+ !!!!
Bolt rifle ballistics in twin tubes thanks to the incredible technological advances of
"The Double Rifle bullet of the Future.".

WHAT A HAMMER !


Fore-ever indebted,

Paul.

Thanks Paul,

If you are still shooting apart at 2175 fps and your right barrel is right and left is left you should be able to bring them together. I think you are in good shape to get to the top loads.

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Brooks:
Peep

quote:

I am still nearly three inches apart at 25yds with 2175fps velocity.

Bigger Powder Dipper!!!!!!......

Michael

I'm REALLY hoping that my V.C will regulate at something close to what you fellas got from the testing.

A .510cal, 475gn monolithic brass non-con travelling at 2300fps is virtually what I am firing
from my M.D.M Ultra mag bolt-gun !

This wopuld have to be THE buffalo load to end all other buffalo loads !

I'm not sure if no-one else has read these latest test results,
or if they have and they just aren't as excited about these results as I am.

I think this is stunning news for .500 double shooters !

Thank-you again Mike and Sam, awesome results, I can wait to go to the field with these this season !

Paul.

So Michael...for ele only for me...would you recommend I try some 510 solids or stay with the 570's? I have the 570 load down pat for my rifle. But a little less recoil is always a good thing.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
So Michael...for ele only for me...would you recommend I try some 510 solids or stay with the 570's? I have the 570 load down pat for my rifle. But a little less recoil is always a good thing.

If they shoot to the same POI and regulate, by all means, you have everything to gain, nothing to lose.

M

+1 Peep
Good stuff Michael!
You could get a set of barrels made to regulate these "super" bullets.
Your tests have shown these higher velocity Non Cons around .2 SD have out penetrated premium softs around .3 SD so that 350 grain .510" bullet is right about there at .192 SD. Should be a great buffalo shredder at 2,500 FPS.

Ledvm,

My Sabatti shoots the 475,510,535 and 570s all in a wad. After seeing what my little slow load with the 510 gr did the other week at Michael's I'd have no problem shooting an elephant with them. The 510 actually went 1 inch deeper than the 570 at about the same velocity. Recoil is much less with the 510s even when you get on up there in velocity.

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

bringing the level of the 500 down to the level of the proper African hunting cartridge

Oh No, nothing could be further from the truth!

We are taken levels UP....................

Michael

Michael and Sam: All kidding aside you guys have done a fantastic job with them new Non Conventional bullets. It is really great to see dedicated people go at it relentlessly and end up rewarded with results such as these.
Congratulation.

It only makes me wonder though, what would a 470 do with treatment like this!!!! Just wondering.


Sam; that Sabbatti have done you well so far. it still looks good, it seems like it held up quite good so far under all this tasting’s. Wonder how many shoots have been fired through it so far, aren't you glad that Michael did not lay his claims to it?


Best regards

Malek
Good shooting/hunting and God's best.

Sam,
How much R-15 are you putting under you 510 gr solids?

Michael,
What should my target velocity be for the solid...knowing regulation may dictate it???

Malek,

Thanks! My Sabatti has been a great gun and has held up great. It has fired many hundreds of rounds, I have no clue really how many. It is regulated about as gun as any double I have owned. If Sabatti would have done all their guns like my 500 they would not be able to make them fast enough. I will say that the Sabatti doubles do need more tweaking like stock shape and better sights. The original sights were junk and the stock still has too high a comb and not enough drop. I'll fix that sometime like I did the sights.

Ledvm,

Michael has posted data on his B&M site. I didn't have time to write everything down but M did. We do so much when I'm down at the lab that I forget half of what we do. Thanks to Michael for being so thorough in posting everything.

Sam

475gn brass non-cons at 2300fps out of a .500 double,
that's some pretty big medicine right there !!!!!!

.510gn solids at 2250fps +, big hammer

quote:

Originally posted by malek:


It only makes me wonder though, what would a 470 do with treatment like this!!!! Just wondering.


Malek
Good shooting/hunting and God's best.

Whatever it would do in a 470, it WILL be less than what the 500 will do. Really no way of getting around that one!

Michael & Sam,

If the "light" bullets will shoot to the same POI as the heavyweights in our 500s, Beau and I are all in! That is if we can get the loads in time for our June Ele hunt.

You guys are doing incredible work, as always.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Sam,
How much R-15 are you putting under you 510 gr solids?

Michael,
What should my target velocity be for the solid...knowing regulation may dictate it???

Lane...... A Lot of RL 15! HEH HEH...... Load data has been up since yesterday. You guys all know this, but approach with caution, especially since we were NOT running Pressure Traces on this.

These loads are Safe in Sam's Sabatti, with that keg of RL 15, on Tuesday! Start way below, do like we did, work up slow in your Rifle. All Double Rifles are Not Created Equal. You may be able to surpass what we did in yours....... Or you may not be able to get to where we did in yours? Personally, I think you won't have any issues, just go at it with the normal cautions that any hand loader should do anyway.

Data Here;
http://www.b-mriflesandcartrid...a-Barrel-Strain.html

Target velocity 2250+ as long as it regulates for you......... Really that can go for the 475 as well... Do use those Talon Tips... Make a BIG difference in performance by increased Impact Velocity...

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by malek:


It only makes me wonder though, what would a 470 do with treatment like this!!!! Just wondering.


Malek
Good shooting/hunting and God's best.

Whatever it would do in a 470, it WILL be less than what the 500 will do. Really no way of getting around that one!

Malek

Because of the 475 B&M, bullets are already available for you to check out in your 470. With the success of the 500 Nitro, you are correct that you might be able to get increased performance with the 470 as well. And with that caliber you need everything you can get..... Sorry, had to could not help myself.. LOL.............

Available in .474 caliber is a fantastic 450 gr #13 Solid and matching 420 gr #13 NonCon..... Even less that is designed for the 475 B&M Super Short... A 350 gr #13 SOlid and matching 320 gr #13 NonCon. My Son Mark David used the 320 #13 NonCons on Buffalo with Paul T this past August, with incredible success... Doing around 2300 fps as I recall.... Hammered buffalo, including one very large big bodied Bull. Yes, 320 gr BBW#13 NonCon in 475 Super Short "Buffalo Hammer"....

Do not be fooled by SD with these bullets, SD is at the bottom of the list of Factors Effecting Terminal Penetration of Solids. In case some of you have forgotten see the list below;

1. Nose Profile
2. Meplat Size
3. Radius Edge Of Meplat
4. Barrel Twist Rate
5. Velocity
6. Construction/Material
7. Nose Projection
8. Sectional Density

If the Nose Profile is of proper design, and Meplat Size is minimum 65%, then Twist Rate is not such a factor. Twist rate comes to play when you are trying to use a "Less than Desirable" nose profile or meplat size! Velocity with a proper designed solid, only increases performance, depth of penetration and trauma inflicted up front. Should you be trying to work with an inferior designed solid, then velocity can help stabilize for some extra straight line depth.

And I will NOT get involved in any StupidAss arguments concerning solids, I have been doing that since 2008, and I just refuse to be involved any longer. If you are too F**K**G Stupid to not know by now, then I am inclined to allow you to remain Stupid for the rest of your life, I won't waste my time on you. If you are just Ignorant, thats different....... I think you might be educated, but if you want to argue "I have been using _______ Solids for 20 yrs and never had a problem" then go somewhere else...... and by all means continue to use _______ Solids.....

If you want to learn, go here;
http://www.b-mriflesandcartrid...id--FMJ-Bullets.html

http://www.b-mriflesandcartrid...ntional-Bullets.html

As a side note, I have been shooting buffalo, elephant, and hippo with the B&Ms and 500 MDM since 2007 and my heavy Solid has been a 500 gr .500 true. I have not recovered many of those. Most exit.

NonCons like velocity, more velocity provides more trauma. There is no upper end of velocity for them, at least in nothing I can find hand held by mortal man.....

450 Nitro guys, already have bullets in place waiting for the same exercise, 450/420 #13 Combos, and many many more designed for 458 Super Shorts and 45/70s that would do great... Maybe, if they regulate.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
Michael & Sam,

If the "light" bullets will shoot to the same POI as the heavyweights in our 500s, Beau and I are all in! That is if we can get the loads in time for our June Ele hunt.

You guys are doing incredible work, as always.

Mike

If we had some RL 15 we could do as we pleased with that.... Maybe some will turn loose in the coming weeks.

M

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by malek:


It only makes me wonder though, what would a 470 do with treatment like this!!!! Just wondering.


Malek
Good shooting/hunting and God's best.

Whatever it would do in a 470, it WILL be less than what the 500 will do. Really no way of getting around that one!

Malek

Because of the 475 B&M, bullets are already available for you to check out in your 470. With the success of the 500 Nitro, you are correct that you might be able to get increased performance with the 470 as well. And with that caliber you need everything you can get..... Sorry, had to could not help myself.. LOL.............

Available in .474 caliber is a fantastic 450 gr #13 Solid and matching 420 gr #13 NonCon..... Even less that is designed for the 475 B&M Super Short... A 350 gr #13 SOlid and matching 320 gr #13 NonCon. My Son Mark David used the 320 #13 NonCons on Buffalo with Paul T this past August, with incredible success... Doing around 2300 fps as I recall.... Hammered buffalo, including one very large big bodied Bull. Yes, 320 gr BBW#13 NonCon in 475 Super Short "Buffalo Hammer"....

Do not be fooled by SD with these bullets, SD is at the bottom of the list of Factors Effecting Terminal Penetration of Solids. In case some of you have forgotten see the list below;

1. Nose Profile
2. Meplat Size
3. Radius Edge Of Meplat
4. Barrel Twist Rate
5. Velocity
6. Construction/Material
7. Nose Projection
8. Sectional Density

If the Nose Profile is of proper design, and Meplat Size is minimum 65%, then Twist Rate is not such a factor. Twist rate comes to play when you are trying to use a "Less than Desirable" nose profile or meplat size! Velocity with a proper designed solid, only increases performance, depth of penetration and trauma inflicted up front. Should you be trying to work with an inferior designed solid, then velocity can help stabilize for some extra straight line depth.

And I will NOT get involved in any StupidAss arguments concerning solids, I have been doing that since 2008, and I just refuse to be involved any longer. If you are too F**K**G Stupid to not know by now, then I am inclined to allow you to remain Stupid for the rest of your life, I won't waste my time on you. If you are just Ignorant, thats different....... I think you might be educated, but if you want to argue "I have been using _______ Solids for 20 yrs and never had a problem" then go somewhere else...... and by all means continue to use _______ Solids.....

If you want to learn, go here;
http://www.b-mriflesandcartrid...id--FMJ-Bullets.html

http://www.b-mriflesandcartrid...ntional-Bullets.html

As a side note, I have been shooting buffalo, elephant, and hippo with the B&Ms and 500 MDM since 2007 and my heavy Solid has been a 500 gr .500 true. I have not recovered many of those. Most exit.

NonCons like velocity, more velocity provides more trauma. There is no upper end of velocity for them, at least in nothing I can find hand held by mortal man.....

450 Nitro guys, already have bullets in place waiting for the same exercise, 450/420 #13 Combos, and many many more designed for 458 Super Shorts and 45/70s that would do great... Maybe, if they regulate.

Michael

Michael/Sam

Thank you for doing all this research, for a guy like me this is sooo helpful.
I’ve been doggedly following this post and your last post (Michael) has cleared up some things I was trying to work out regarding large bore short bullets and sectional density.
I just ordered a 450 NE and am looking for components (lighter bullet options) for use in North America. I am very interested in testing out what you guys have done. I was a little concerned about the poor sectional density of the short 458 bullets. Originally I was looking at the North fork 350 or 400 ss soft, but with 458 cal in NA why not just use a solid, probably less meat damage any way, probably a big enough hole. I am still interested in the north fork softs but am defiantly ordering some # 13 light solids heck might as well order some non-cons to boot.
Thanks again you guys for removing so much of the guess work.

Just goes to show you though that ole Mike Brady...the founder of NF bullets...was a pretty smart guy. He always told me that he had already tried all the other powders in the .500 NE and that they were all inferior to R-15 in some form or fashion and...that with "proper bullets"...bigger is not always better.

A long time ago...when I was shooting a .458 Win Mag...he told me to quit trying to shoot 500 gr bullets. He told me years ago that a 450 gr NFFP solid going 2250 out of my .458 WM was the way to go!

Double BC you're welome! The 450 is a great cartridge and I have worked a bit with that caliber also. Have gotten very good regulating loads with 300 and 405 grain 45-70 bullets. These work great for practice and hunting thin skinned game. With the new non conventional bullets you can do much more with light for caliber bullets. The old myth that you have to have heavy bullets in a big bore is busted. They make a big bore much more enjoyable to shoot also.

Sam

quote:

A long time ago...when I was shooting a .458 Win Mag...he told me to quit trying to shoot 500 gr bullets. He told me years ago that a 450 gr NFFP solid going 2250 out of my .458 WM was the way to go!

And Lane, he was absolutely correct on that point! I have never used 500s in 458 Win, have experimented and played with, but in 458 Winchester going to the field, 450s all the way, softs/solids. And was no issue at all getting 2250 with them, and plenty of hitting power, and penetration.

Because of Regulation and Pressures, doubles have some limitations, and require more experimentation to get more versatility than a bolt gun. But, it can be done and you can increase your effectiveness in the field by doing so.

Sorry I missed some of you guys yesterday, I was on a burning mission all day, late getting in, and showered and hit the bed when I did get in.

Oh, and good news, weekend of March 1st we have North Fork for a weekend visit. Plenty of drinking moonshine, shootiing, and lots of "Bullet Talk" I am sure........ HEH HEH........
Michael