Good Morning All My Double Rifles Buddies!

I have been waiting on Sam to start this thread, but I suppose he is a little shy! HEH.....

Not me, I will get it rolling for you! I struggled for a proper title to this, I looked at Load Data, that did not seem right, looked at investigation, a little too much detective there, then it hit me, An Exploration! An Exploration into new territory! That seemed just about perfect to me.

First, how did I get here! A few things, while I am not a double rifle sort of chap everyone here has welcomed me with open arms! That means a lot to me, or I would not bother with doing projects like this. Another, Sam my test buddy, shooting partner, genius extraordinaire is a double rifle nut! Double rifles are big bores generally, and that peaks my interest a good bit. Bullet tech for them peaks my interest a great deal, and most of what we learn from bullet tech, load data, barrel strains and these sort of things carry over from one rifle to the next, and bullets don't give a rats ass what sort of rifle they are being shot in! Sam and I have worked on many projects together. At some point in the past I know I mentioned my affection for the 500 Nitro Cartridge, even in a double, it has always been one of the cartridges that not only peaked my interests, but I have considered it just about the perfect cartridge for dangerous game. It has it all, caliber, velocity, and now it even has proper bullets. My own 500 MDM was a hope to equal 500 Nitro--Just in a Win M70! Which I had to compromise some things to make that work. In reality my 50 B&M is closer to that goal, and easier to work with. Another story.

Sam mentioned this project a month or so ago, knowing my affection for 500 Nitro I am sure! In reality he would not have got much interest out of me had it been many other cartridges.

While not a double rifle chap, this can work to your advantage. I am not affected by nostalgia, I am not affected by the history aspect of double rifles, I have no prior prejudices to influence my thought processes, so I can be outside the box of conventional thinking. I may challenge certain traditional thought, that might not go well, but as I said, an exploration of new powders, ideas, bullets, loading tech, and many other things as we move forward. I think it will be an interesting adventure myself.

We will not be concerned too much with terminal performance of bullets. We have done that, been there, got the T'Shirt, and that has been explored extensively. What we intend to explore is loading tech, powders and pressures, a new barrel strain study in .510 caliber, fillers and probably many other things as we learn new avenues to explore. Many things we learn here, will carry over to other cartridges to some extent.

One of the first things I intend to challenge is the extensive use of fillers! Is it really needed today with our selection of modern powders, I contend right now it is not! I hate fillers, it introduces yet another component that I know effects things we have not yet began to understand. While it might have been needed years ago, is it really needed today!

Different powders, how they burn, how they react, and what is really going on with them when ignited?

Barrel Strain, always an important consideration in the arena of doubles!

Crimp? No Crimp?

The first work done on 1/24/2012 is nothing conclusive about anything. It is only a starting point. Primary reason for all of it was to give directions into other avenues of exploration. This first work brings me to the question about fillers? It brings up some different powders that really looked good, like V-N550! It brings to light many directions in which we will now begin to explore. This will not be an overnight success story. It will require lot's of time, and lot's of shooting to come to any conclusions about anything.

There will be very few "Absolutes", there will be a good bit of "Probability", and there will be many many "Possibilities" during this work.

I have dedicated a page on my B&M Website to this "Exploration of 500 Nitro", it is located on the main page known as "Additional Research", and a link to the page inside that. There will be PDF documents located there that you can download, the first work is there now for you. I will update those documents as data is gathered and compiled. I always have the date of data attached to the document, you will see it like this 1242012 which is 1/24/2012.

Here is the direct link to that page;

http://www.b-mriflesandcartrid...--Barrel-Strain.html

Do realize this, when doing this sort of data with big bores and limited time, I work with 2 shot strings. Most of the time this works well and gives direction, but is by no stretch conclusive. For instance, as we work through and start load data on a particular powder, we move up in increments with 2 shot strings, when something starts to really shine, really look good, then I will change it to 3-5 shot strings to confirm the 2 shot data. Or, if there is an anomaly in the two shot string, and deemed important to the research, then that will be shot again with 3-5 shot strings to confirm. So you will see a lot of 2 shot string data, which is not conclusive and only gives direction. Remember this please.

With all this being said now, I am going to go to separate posts for each of the points I want to make on this first string of data gathered.


It's our sincere hope that we all can learn something from this and you find it useful.

Michael

POWDERS

Something that keeps pounding on my door every single week!!!!!!!!

YOUR POWDER IS NOT THE SAME AS MY POWDER---Even with the same NAME.

My IMR 4350 is not Sam's IMR-4350!

Sam loaded up a lot of loads for Benchmark loads with 106/IMR 4350 with several different kinds of bullets. Which is a Beginning! Gotta start from something! Not a consideration at the beginning of this work, but a very big consideration that for sure needs to be pointed out to you! Because you see some data somewhere, here, in a loading manual, or your friend tells you, or you get it from anywhere else, use care and caution and keep in mind those powders, components and many other variables are not the same as yours! I have been fighting a hell of a battle with RL10X the last year or so. Going through now 4 different 5 lb kegs of RL 10X, and every single keg giving EXTREMELY different results, and the worst of it is--They have ALL been the SAME LOT#!!!!! Dangerous results too--To the point that if I used the original data from Keg #1 for Keg #4 then I would be WAY INTO THE BLOW UP A DAMN RIFLE sort of Results!

My Powder is Not Your Powder!

We compared a quick load to Sams IMR 4350 and My IMR 4350. Sam brought primers and bullets, so those were out of the same box! The only difference is the powder kegs!







This is a difference of 3818 PSI. If you were running 45000 PSI load, well you know. Roughly 10% difference in the two kegs. While 3000-4000 PSI is not that significant if you are at 60000 PSI, at 37000-41000 it is more significant.

Beware and be careful, all Powder is not created equal! Nor components!

Michael

Michael,

I'm using IMR 4007SSC and have never needed fillers in the 500NE. Please include that powder in your tests.

Another important point that came out the other day as a reminder to Sam and I is the following;

A Woodleigh Soft Point is not the Same bullet as a Woodleigh FMJ


If you have two bullets, a Woodleigh Soft and a Woodleigh FMJ--They are not created equal!

I make no excuses, I HATE a Woodleigh FMJ bullet! First strike, it's a Round Nose! And that is all the strike I need to put it in the CRAP BULLET CATEGORY! I hate all round nose solids or fmj. I am not prejudice, I hate them all! Since this is not about terminals, lets' look at the chamber pressures of a soft/fmj with the same load.






We did not have any 570 Woodleigh FMJ--I had got rid of all of them. So we used the 535s for this. You can see a BIG difference here of close to 6000 PSI. If you were running your soft at 45000, where would your FMJ be!

I have nothing against Woodleigh Softs--I like them a lot. An excellent bullet.

Michael

Now you know why I was shy, I can't top that start.
As Michael said this is going to be an exploration of the 500 Nitro Express in a double rifle. We will be trying to show how different components will work in this caliber. We will be doing everything from blackpowder loads to full nitro loads. Reason for such a wide range is partly because I have many BPE(Black Powder Express) rifles that I shoot. I have always been a little uneasy about shooting smokeless powder in a gun made in the 1860s to 1890s. These tests that we do should help double rifle owners not just 500 nitro owners learn more about how different components affect pressures, ignition, barrel strain and maybe even regulation. That might be a whole different project.

Michael has been a great help to me with all of this testing. His has a beautiful indoor range that is lab clean until I've been there. There is no way to collect as much data as Michael has without having such a facility. For me I have to load ammo drive 10 miles to my range, shoot in the wind, rain, heat, cold and so on. OK I'm wondering a little. I'm just trying to show you that Michael and I are trying very hard to get good data and consistant data for you. This will be a long project but if we cover as much stuff in a session as we did the first test it might not take that long. Like Dirty Jobs, we need your help in finding out what you want to know. We will be willing to test most anything within reason and I will make the call on whether I want to shoot it in my gun.

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Michael,

I'm using IMR 4007SSC and have never needed fillers in the 500NE. Please include that powder in your tests.

Hi Todd! Yes, we did. Sam found a pound local and we started working with it.

Having no direction to go in Sam loaded up starting at 95 grs with a foam filler. We got some funny secondary peaks. We kept going up until 100/IMR 4007 with foam fillers and still had that secondary peak that was higher than primary. Secondary peaks are funny, strange things, and many things can cause secondary peaks, from an improper strain gage attachment, to specific burning characteristics, or possibly adding an unknown such as a filler. In the case of IMR 4007, I think this secondary was coming from internal combustion rates from low powder charges and possible filler interference at the same time.

Here is a sample trace of 100/IMR 4007 with a foam filler, showing the secondary peak, which is beginning to come DOWN from early loads below 100 grs. The Trace PSI Pressures showing are from the secondary peaks, not the primary.



Now we move to 103/IMR 4007 with NO FILLER and we see that even the Primary Peak is lower, and that secondary peak is about to go away. It's still present, but it is of little importance.



Now I can't remember why we only have one trace on the above, I think we had run out of Woodleigh Softs at that point to be honest.

This next test we took it directly to a 570 BBW#13 with 105/IMR 4007 and no filler. You can see the secondary peak is gone now, and pressures are good, nice long curve back to zero. Appears to be a pretty good load, and has the velocity one likes as well.

Before anyone blames the foam for the secondary peaks I'll tell you. Not all powders had secondary peaks with foam filler. Two powders did show this however but they stopped when more powder was added and no filler was needed.

Why do we use fillers? When reloading of these large express cartridges began the only suitable powder available at the time was IMR 3031 and it seemed to be grain for grain with cordite. It was the old standard which everyone used to load NE cartridges. Some do swear by it and some at it. Cordite being long sticks like spaghetti didn't need a filler to keep it against the primer for good ignition. IMR 3031 however had a lot of airspace and needed something to hold it against the primer or hang fires would result. Fillers and their effects have been explored in other calibers and will be again in these tests. The 500 Nitro with its 3 inch case has less capacity than many of the other nitro express cartridges so filler aren't quite as big of an issue.

A bit about these secondary peaks. I found secondary peaks when I first started using this system. To this day I am not sure if THOSE Secondaries were real, imagined, or a poor strain gage hookup. At times, changed the gage, secondaries went away! For sure, secondary ghosts, and not real.

Other Secondary Peaks ARE REAL. I have come to learn, and interpret correctly some of these.

The one you see above with IRM 4007 is a real secondary peak. While in the scheme of the big world a secondary peak is of little importance. You won't see this in the field by any stretch. You won't see this over the chronograph, and you can't measure this by measuring cases either. You can only see this secondary peak if you have a very sensitive piece of equipment hooked up like these strain gages. No other way.

I don't think secondary peaks are a "Pressure Concern" Leave that for Primary Peaks. I have had REAL secondary peaks in cartridges like 458 Lott and FACTORY HORNADY ammo for testing purposes, that reached over 100000 PSI, while Primary Peaks were at 50000 PSI or so. While not dangerous, and did not blow my rifle up, it is indicative of something in the combustion rate, possibly catching back up to the bullet as it travels down the bore, giving a "Secondary Bump". I don't like Secondary Peaks! But have found little harm in them as of yet.

If I had a choice of two loads, one with a secondary peak, one without, both same velocity, both close to same Primary Peak, and all else equal I would choose the load without the Secondary Peak, just because!

Sam is right, secondary peaks here were not caused by foam filler, or any filler, but by the amount of the powder charge.

Michael

I don't think I'll ever have a double rifle but Michael's stuff is sooo interesting !

Michael would you make comments as you go along about the different fillers especially as to possible residue in the bore .Melted dacron doesn't sound like a good thing to have in the bore.

How Do Bullets of the Same Weight and using the same Powder Charge Show Pressure?

In case you did not already know, All Bullets are Not Created Equal! Well, this is true in many aspects of the statement, terminals for sure. But how about the same caliber, same weight bullet with the same powder charge?













As I recall we used MDM IMR 4350 with this load--Which we know is not the same as Sams IMR 4350.




As you see there are vastly different results shown.

Michael

Another question! Why are Nitro Express cartridges so big? Well unlike today where we have modern steels and great powders that aren't temparture sensitive back in the day of cordite we had basicly dynamite that when heated in the tropical sun of Africa caused high pressures. Double rifles being basicly a shotgun action were weak and couldn't handle high pressures. So in that age the only way to reduce pressures was to increase capacity of the case and get more airspace. Boy that sounds wrong for us today and it is. Today we make a case bigger to get more powder into it and push the pressures to the max.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
POWDERS

Something that keeps pounding on my door every single week!!!!!!!!

YOUR POWDER IS NOT THE SAME AS MY POWDER---Even with the same NAME.

My IMR 4350 is not Sam's IMR-4350!

Sam loaded up a lot of loads for Benchmark loads with 106/IMR 4350 with several different kinds of bullets. Which is a Beginning! Gotta start from something! Not a consideration at the beginning of this work, but a very big consideration that for sure needs to be pointed out to you! Because you see some data somewhere, here, in a loading manual, or your friend tells you, or you get it from anywhere else, use care and caution and keep in mind those powders, components and many other variables are not the same as yours! I have been fighting a hell of a battle with RL10X the last year or so. Going through now 4 different 5 lb kegs of RL 10X, and every single keg giving EXTREMELY different results, and the worst of it is--They have ALL been the SAME LOT#!!!!! Dangerous results too--To the point that if I used the original data from Keg #1 for Keg #4 then I would be WAY INTO THE BLOW UP A DAMN RIFLE sort of Results!

My Powder is Not Your Powder!

We compared a quick load to Sams IMR 4350 and My IMR 4350. Sam brought primers and bullets, so those were out of the same box! The only difference is the powder kegs!







This is a difference of 3818 PSI. If you were running 45000 PSI load, well you know. Roughly 10% difference in the two kegs. While 3000-4000 PSI is not that significant if you are at 60000 PSI, at 37000-41000 it is more significant.

Beware and be careful, all Powder is not created equal! Nor components!

Michael

Michael,

Thank you for reminding all of this.

I haven't read the "Introduction" to any of my reloading manuals in many years so I don't know if this is still written there

BUT

That statement or something very much like it was in every one of the manuals in the past. I haven't re-read the intros in the new versions since I assumed it continues to be printed there.

Why should this be news to any reloader?

For all of the people I PM'ed or emailed my load data I always include that very statement or something very much like it.

And recently I reminded a few folk who were posting loads - some of which were in excess of what was printed as "Max" in some manuals - that they should ALWAYS start low and work up and that they should do so every time they change any component or open a new can of powder and that the chamber in one gun may not be to the same tolerances as that of another. Even of the same manufacture.

This is not and should not be news to anyone; not a single person who reloads or has read about reloading or has read the introduction and sometimes even the particular cartridge load data in any of the reloading manuals. This should be part of our DNA by now.

Like Don't run with scissors we have heard it a million times, ignore it most times and do just fine. Ever see the 4 year old kid who didn't do just fine? I saw that kid this morning and others like him every day. I am glad you posted that Michael and hope you include some form of that info in every post - it is that important.

Thanks,

Paul

One last example, for this morning, I have an 11 am meeting to prepare for.

How does it look as we work up a load data base. Like I said, 2 shots per string, until we get to a very interesting point, then we go to 3-5 to confirm. If 3 does it, fine, that's where we go. Have not made it to the X3 or X5 yet. But moving in that direction.

On this example Sam went in 1 gr Increments. Good advice in some cases.








As you can see each step up you get increased velocity, along with increased pressure. Use the two elements to measure each other. If one stops, such as you get an increase in pressure, but no real increase in velocity, then you are at a point of diminishing returns. And you should stop at that point.

Another example;





In the above example we reached a point of Max Safe Pressures, close to 45000 PSI, which for right now we are considering that the Max Safe to go to.

Had we went to 108, for sure would have been over that point.

More to come, more to show, and many directions to explore. We have entered the "Main Shaft", now we have arrived at a junction with a half dozen different paths to follow, and each one of those paths will lead to other paths, down that branch. So you see, this is just a minor beginning to this "Exploration". I expect a great deal of feed back, as many of you will have Branches of Study, that we might can explore as well. It's a team effort, and we are not alone, you are part of this as well.

Michael

How do you know when you are at maximun pressure in a double rifle designed for low pressure? What is the max pressure for a double rifle? Different actions may show high pressure sooner than others. If enough pressure to stretch the action during firing happens the case pushes back against the breech face and locks the action tight. Sometimes you have to hit the action over your knee to break it open. I have seen this many times with loads that were thought to be safe. Now in our tests Michael and I have had some pressures that I would consider over max. The gun opened easily and cases popped right out of the chambers. I have seen it the past when you open the gun the ejectors don't fire and the cases are stuck in the chambers. This is often what breaks extractors and ejectors. Now if you are getting these kinds of problems you are way over pressure in my opinion. You can't look and primers to judge pressure in a double rifle. By the time you get flattened primers you are doing damage to your gun. Now some of the newer doubles made today might just be strong enough to handle higher pressures but you still aren't working with a bolt action.

Holy crap! I wanted to buy a 500 NE, but now I think I need to go get my PHD in Physics first!!!!!!!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
Holy crap! I wanted to buy a 500 NE, but now I think I need to go get my PHD in Physics first!!!!!!!!!!

You need to stick to a Daisy Red Rider and nothing more than that. You just can't handle it.

Yes...I'm almost 60 !!!! Besides, I might put my eye out!

Seems to be lot's of good powders to work with in 500 Nitro. We only touched on a few, and will explore more as we move forward.


Bear in mind we are not doing accuracy nor regulation--That is just not part of this study. What might be great for this one rifle we are working with, might not be worth a damn in yours. We are studying the various loads and powders, pressures and such, and you can pick and choose what might regulate or shoot well in your rifle.


We had requests on RL 17 and IMR 4007. Which we did to some extent, not completely, but touched on. These two look like peas from the same pod, giving similar results across the board.






RL 15 has always been one of my standbys in 458 Lott, 470 Capstick and many others of that sort. It also has a great place here with 500 Nitro as well. This one, NO Filler!




Varget and RL 15, normally pretty close. We actually started at 97/Varget, it was a bit strong. Dropped it to 96/Varget, and it is still a little bit much for Max Safe. We will explore Varget a bit more.




We looked at WW 760, and something else, that escapes me just now, both showing promise, but we were way low on pressures and velocities to even have a start.

We also tried one load with V-N550. Right now, of new powders tested and looked at, this looks like it can have a tremendous potential as being a top end powder for 500 Nitro. While in this test of two, the traces are not all that close, the velocity is just 10 fps under 2100 fps, and the pressure only 40000 PSI, with 103 grs. No Fillers of course. 105 grs might really start to look impressive? Looks like good potential to me. We will find out this coming week.




I must take time, try this today, to sit down and document the different areas in which to start our exploration. Of course some are easy, we explore more in depth some of the powders, like V-N550. There is of course the barrel strain work, which is a separate study. There are questions such as fillers and how they react, and are they even needed today. There is Black Powder data, and it's compiled and ready. I just have not had time to print, scan, and convert, then upload the Traces to show you this part yet. It's on the Data Download sheet, but that is another area to explore as well. I am sure, once I sit down, review again the data, there will be directions both Sam and I will discover that we need to explore.

I am also sure, once you guys think some of this over, that you will see areas that also need to be explored. So don't hesitate to ask or let us know.

About time for me to go now!

Later

Michael

Biebs, stick with the 375!!! Scoped of course!

Michael and Sam,

So I am running 105/IMR 4007SSC, no filler, in my Merkel with the 570gr BBW#13. That load is giving me right at 2100fps with what I would think is perfect regulation, ie the two bullets are just touching each other at 50 yards without crossing. I like this load but it appears from your data that it is over 40,000psi in your setup. Would you consider this to be too much for a modern double?

I've been shooting this same load with the 570gr Barnes Banded Solid and had no questions about it. However, I noticed an increase in velocity with the BBW#13 of nearly 100fps. Knowing there is no such thing as a free lunch, I wondered if this velocity increase is coming at a price of excessive pressure. What do you think?

Todd,

I think that 105 grains of 4007 & a CEB#13 is at the max limit in my gun. In your gun it may be totally different. Sounds like your gun is regulating well with it & as long you're not having problems you should be good to go.

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
I must take time, try this today, to sit down and document the different areas in which to start our exploration. Of course some are easy, we explore more in depth some of the powders, like V-N550. There is of course the barrel strain work, which is a separate study. There are questions such as fillers and how they react, and are they even needed today. There is Black Powder data, and it's compiled and ready. I just have not had time to print, scan, and convert, then upload the Traces to show you this part yet. It's on the Data Download sheet, but that is another area to explore as well. I am sure, once I sit down, review again the data, there will be directions both Sam and I will discover that we need to explore.

About time for me to go now!

Later

Michael

N550 and N560 are two of my favorite powders for big Weatherby cases and big NE cases. It willb e interesting to see how things work out with these.

Great work, Michael and Sam!

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Todd,

I think that 105 grains of 4007 & a CEB#13 is at the max limit in my gun. In your gun it may be totally different. Sounds like your gun is regulating well with it & as long you're not having problems you should be good to go.

Sam

Sam, I'm not having any issues such as stiff opening, abnormal extraction, or flattened primers, but as you said, that is an indication of being way over! The Barnes #4 manual lists 105/IMR 4007SSC as Max with the BBS and that is what I had worked up to. Worked up to it again with the BBW#13 and the only difference I noted was the increase in velocity.

I also notice that in your gun, with 24" barrels, the same as mine, you are getting roughly the same velocity. Absent any issues developing, I'll stick with it. If you guys notice any issues with this load, please advise and I will do the same, although I don't have the test equipment you do!

Thanks again for all the efforts!

This may have been covered somewhere before but just for ease of finding the info, can we talk a little about what is considered to be a safe working pressure in doubles?

For some reason, the 40K number is stuck in my head. Is this low?

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Todd,

I think that 105 grains of 4007 & a CEB#13 is at the max limit in my gun. In your gun it may be totally different. Sounds like your gun is regulating well with it & as long you're not having problems you should be good to go.

Sam

Todd

I concur with Sam on this. If this is working for you, I see no reason to change it. Sam and I are using 45000 PSI as Max Safe Pressures. I don't think one will get in any trouble with using this, but again, this is with modern rifles, others I don't know. This seems to be a magic load for you, and it shows good to go here as well. This load shows in Sams rifle 45837 PSI. Now to keep things in perspective, that was for 1/24/2012 under those environmental conditions, that day, that hookup! Next week, this load could show 44000, or 46000 or different. It won't be far, but it won't be the same either. Sam and I had several loads that peaked from 46000 to 51000 PSI--None showed any issues with extraction or over pressure signs. Setting Max Safe at 43000 to 45000 PSI will keep things safe for THAT RIFLE. Other rifles??? Should be in the ball park I would think.

Now most all of you are far more familiar with max safe pressures in doubles than I am, so if I am wrong, speak up!


Doc

Yes, will work on that V-N550, that is one of the top priorities I intend to look at.

Michael

Thanks Michael.

Michael/Sam,

Would it be of assistance to the DR guys if you listed in your final data compilation a +/- pressure next to your avg pressure reading...or perhaps just list the low, high, and the average pressure - much as you're doing with the velocity readings?

Otherwise you guys are doing some very valuable work.

Todd,

As for your question on safe pressures in a double rifle I will say this. In Graeme Wright's book he shows 16 tons max with cordite in the 500 NE 3 inch and 14 tons in the 470 NE 3 1/4 inch. I our earlier tests with the 470 NE we fired original Kynoch Cordite loads that showed a pressure of a little over 45000 PSI on the strain gage and gave perfect velocity. Now I have not been able to locate any 500 Nitro Cordite loaded ammo yet to test. I hope to find some to add to this work. It would make since that everyone would agree that original Kynoch ammo would be safe in a nitro proved double. Michael and I have several different factory loads to compare in these tests. We did not have any of this available to test last week but it is on the table soon. Hopefully we can show better how our reloaded ammo compares to factory in both pressure and velocity. I do not claim that the pressures we show in our data is exact it is only a comparison of ammo and loads known to be safe.

Your test are reiterating what I have thought for a while...You can't get enough IMR 4350 in a .500 NE 3" case to get velocity up to 2150. Max loads with quite a bit of compression are barely over 2000.

Lane remember the 2150 fps figure everyone thinks of came from 28 to 30 inch barrels not 24 inch. Factory Kynoch out of my VC 500 clocked in at 1960 fps.

I just went back and looked at the Original Cordite 470 NE load we tested, it showed 45909 psi and 2084 fps velocity.

Thanks Sam.

Todd you are welcome.

One other thing I should mention. Tons, CUP, PSI, Chamber pressure and breech thrust pressure are all different. I know of no way to get one from the other and don't think there is a formula to do it either. So don't ask me which is which and is it the same because I'm not that smart and it ain't the same.

We are comparing here thats all.

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Todd you are welcome.

One other thing I should mention. Tons, CUP, PSI, Chamber pressure and breech thrust pressure are all different. I know of no way to get one from the other and don't think there is a formula to do it either. So don't ask me which is which and is it the same because I'm not that smart and it ain't the same.

We are comparing here thats all.

Understood and I think that is really all that is necessary to get a good feel for where things stand. If our reloads are similar to original Kynoc or current factory loads, I would think that unless something very unusual is happening, we are on the right track.

You and Michael have no idea how much I have learned from you guys. I'm sure I speak for others as well. If you guys are going to SCI, I'll gladly buy you a few rounds should we happen to meet up.

Thanks Todd is that a few rounds of ammo or drinks????
I've got some original Cordite Kynoch 500 ammo on the way!!!

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Thanks Todd is that a few rounds of ammo or drinks????
I've got some original Cordite Kynoch 500 ammo on the way!!!

Drinks brother! Those Cordite 500's will be interesting, eh?

Ditto what Todd said. Great work by Sam and Michael!!

Sorry I'm not going to make it to SCI but thanks for the offer.

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Lane remember the 2150 fps figure everyone thinks of came from 28 to 30 inch barrels not 24 inch. Factory Kynoch out of my VC 500 clocked in at 1960 fps.

I just went back and looked at the Original Cordite 470 NE load we tested, it showed 45909 psi and 2084 fps velocity.

Agreed...but it looks like we can do better with other powders. With 106 gr of IMR 4350 out of my 23.5" barrels...I got ~2025 fps with the front screen of my chrono 15' from the muzzle. My barrel groups were 3-4 inches apart at 25 yards with that load. I don't think 1 more grain is gonna make that load a winner in my rifle. 96 gr of R-15 was almost there for a perfect 25 yard group. I was fixing (and still am) to shoot some 97 gr loads think it would be the ticket...and y'all's test confirm that it has the potential to be the sweet spot. And...as I already had thought...as NFMike had planted the seed with me early on...filler probably is not needed with R-15 in the .500 NE. I wish y'all would go back and shoot those lower R-15 loads with out a filler and see if they had the secondary peaks still.

Michael, a quick note validating your foam observation. When I was test loading for my 450NE, I was told by a lot of experienced folks that RL-15 was the cat's meow for this and other big bore rounds but a filler was needed and a few folks recommended rod filler types. Well when I used those a got significant and erratic velocity excursions some way above 2150.

Jorge

Well, Sam likes, and I have to concur, the foam rod fillers, if you use a filler at all. From the test work we did in 470 the foam rod filler really proved itself there, if you use a filler. But the other day, or night or something, Sam and I talked and why use a filler at all? Hell, I have done downloaded ammo in some big bores all my life, many far less than 1/2 case capacity, and never once had an issue. Now granted, not in the traditional big bore double cartridges, but for the life of me a cartridge is a cartridge and there just should not be such a need for these fillers, that I can "Filler" out anyway? But, we will find out, and I think it's most important to do so.

I think Lane mentioned above, the 95/RL 15 load, yes Lane, I will add that to the list of "To Dos" and NO FILLER. Gees, I hope I have not started something ugly!

I think when you introduce another object-or factor into this, that it might now always be a good thing. Some of these things we see, you won't see on your chrono, you won't see by case study, you can only see it with one of these contraptions I have here. Sensitive these gages are, pick up everything. Sometimes you wish they would not, kinda like XRay glasses, seeing you naked or something! HEH...... Jorge, just on the info we did the other day, I get the feeling we get better loads without the filler, with most of these powders.

We will find out for sure.


Michael