Thanks again Michael and Sam for all of this work. I know it is expensive in terms of money and time. We very much appreciate you guys.

To further your comment a bit, as per my PMs, I had felt that 105grs of IMR 4007 SSC and a 570gr CEB was a bit "hot" in my Merkel. So while working up loads for my new VC, I found that 104grs gave me 2,108fps, and cases fell prior to ejector engagement. Then yesterday, I loaded 10 rounds of 105grs. Velocity dropped to just under 2,100fps, regulation spread opened, and the cases DID NOT fall prior to ejector engagement. Obviously the point of diminishing returns in terms of the velocity and it showed up right where the cases stopped free falling. This could well be coincidence but it sure came together exactly at the same point for me yesterday. Obviously, I only shot 2 rounds of that load per barrel. I've now pulled those remaining bullets and will be reducing the powder charge accordingly.

Good stuff you boys are puttin out!

Take this with a grain of salt cause I do not own a 500 NE anything - that said, I don't recollect anyone posting loading information identifying the brass manufacturer they're using as well as the H2O overflow capacity of the case resized in the manner they use for their DR reloading. The brand/manufacturer of brass as well as the extent of case resizing; i.e., FLR vs some form of partial-FLR can/could account for differences in the load volume and pressures being identified...

Just something to think about...

quote:

So while working up loads for my new VC, I found that 104grs gave me 2,108fps, and cases fell prior to ejector engagement. Then yesterday, I loaded 10 rounds of 105grs. Velocity dropped to just under 2,100fps, regulation spread opened, and the cases DID NOT fall prior to ejector engagement. Obviously the point of diminishing returns in terms of the velocity and it showed up right where the cases stopped free falling.

Todd.......

This is an EXCELLENT EXAMPLE of getting to that top end pressure. Once you reach little or no gain in velocity, and in this case even less velocity, then you are at that point and need to back down. You cannot go further with 4007 in that rifle! You worked it PERFECTLY..........

This goes for anything, any cartridge/rifle combination......

Michael

Todd,

When you check to see if the "shells fall out prior to ejector engagement"
do you take the barrels off?

Awesome work by both Mike and Sam,
a very big thank-you to you both.

This is priceless information that to my knowledge has not been done, or at least made for public record, prior to this.

There are many of us out here that genuinely appreciate your time, expense and efforts.

Thank-you both.

quote:

Originally posted by Double BC:
Todd,

When you check to see if the "shells fall out prior to ejector engagement"
do you take the barrels off?

No,

I crack the action open just a bit, hold the barrels straight up, and watch to see if the cases fall from the chamber prior to the ejectors "pinging" and throwing the case as I continue opening the action very slowly. So far, with this new rifle, the left barrel's case usually falls free even before the extraction begins but the right barrel needs a bit of extraction before it falls out.

I suspect Kwan is referring to total case capacity measured with S365, a load commonly used is 105gr S365 with a 570gr cup and core bullet which gives 2150fps in my 24" barrel (with minimal powder compression). I use the Dzombo 570 gr monolithic brass solid and would have 3/8 inch powder compression if I tried that load, I use 85gr S335 which gives 2080fps with a 570gr brass solid. However this load is fired in a custom built on a Ruger No1 action and is predicted by Quickload to be a touch above max for 500NE (whatever standard they use for 500NE in QL)

quote:

Originally posted by Balule:
I suspect Kwan is referring to total case capacity measured with S365, a load commonly used is 105gr S365 with a 570gr cup and core bullet which gives 2150fps in my 24" barrel (with minimal powder compression). I use the Dzombo 570 gr monolithic brass solid and would have 3/8 inch powder compression if I tried that load, I use 85gr S335 which gives 2080fps with a 570gr brass solid. However this load is fired in a custom built on a Ruger No1 action and is predicted by Quickload to be a touch above max for 500NE (whatever standard they use for 500NE in QL)

Thanks Balule, yes, you are absolutely correct.... That is total case capacity, I was off base on that one without even thinking about it....... Keep us straight on that SA Powder!

I hope to be loading some this morning... Range is busy this morning, and I have a 10 am here to help a fellow sight in a rifle.. After that, I am hoping to get a 458 B&M ready to go out, then do some pressure tests with the Nitro after.....

M

Ok guys..... I have been busy the last few days on and off with the 500 NE project. As you know, there are MAJOR differences in Powder, same powder, even same lot#. Your powder is NOT MY POWDER in many cases. This is rather disturbing to some of you and can be a major problem trying to work up data for your rifle. As if you did not have enough problems already with two barrels glued together, now I have to add this to your worries! Well, your worries are not over just with POWDER! You have two other major concerns.... Your Rifle and Your Brass is also different! This only adds to the BS you have to go through to get to where you want to be! Yep, its a bitch, and not one thing we can do about it, with the exception of use as many tools as we have available to keep up with pressures, velocity, and other factors.

#1.... Keep good records. Write everything down that you do while on the range. You may not even realize the root of a problem or issue until days later when you get home, and refer back to your data and notes. Very important, write everything down.


So, how do you guys out there, without strain gages, without all the tools we have here to monitor pressures and velocity and Blah blah blah, how do you keep up with where you are??????

Many of you know these things, many of you do not. So please, if you do know, bear with me.

One, you are going to have to monitor with a chronograph. You have to have velocity to confirm, and correlate your work. This is Tool #1 in your pouch. Without it, you are "Shooting In The Dark".

Case Study. Yes, your brass must fall freely, before ejectors take effect. Make sure your chambers are clean, of course, and your brass is CLEAN as well. Dirty brass or chambers make get sticky and give you incomplete data. If all is clean, then brass should fall out before ejectors take effect. If NOT, if they do not fall freely, then you may be at top end... Back Down!

I think your modern doubles are very strong, stronger than the limits we put on them. I think the actions are rather weak, and therein lies the issue with keeping pressures reasonable. I think the chamber and rifle can hold a lot of pressure itself, but continued use of hi pressure loads may damage other things.

Velocity! In many, most cases but not all, if you have a load that gives you a certain velocity, and the next load is a grain, or two more, and you get no substantial gain in velocity, this is a strong indicator that you are at the top end with that powder. In some cases, as Todd mentioned, he actually got a decrease in velocity with a grain more powder. This is a good indicator, back down and you are finished with that powder!

Watch your velocity in your rifle. And keep an eye on your brass. Unlike a bolt gun your brass in the double is harder to read. Brass does not have to be turned, so there are few indicators on the base of the brass for you to watch.

I have been working the last few days to help some with "Case Measurements".... Case Measurements, measuring the amount of expansion a case does from unfired to fired, is one of the very best ways you can keep up with pressures you are running, right below having pressure trace equipment. I developed the entire line of B&Ms using nothing but Case Measurements, long before I decided not to be so lazy and hook up strain gages to every rifle and cartridge. It worked, and I was dead spot on the money, over 90% of the time.

I had a distinct advantage over most situations however. That is "Consistency" Every barrel was essentially the same, same reamer, same brass, same everything, very little inconsistency thrown in the mix, so it was rather easy once I knew where and what those measurements would be on the B&Ms, and they were for the most part bolt guns, bolt guns like to talk to you when they get too much pressure. Lever guns too, they talk a lot, they let you know when things are getting ugly to them. I really don't have as much experience to understand the language of doubles when things get ugly to them, but keep working on it. Personally I am more afraid to take a double to beyond top end to be able to understand the language. I understand bolt language and lever language very well.

Since we really don't want to take the double beyond top end to try and understand the language they talk when not happy, then lets look at measuring these developments.

Now we have a little problem, "Inconsistency", different makers, different barrels, different reamers, different chambers and the list goes on. Sam had a 375 B&M once, chamber was so tight that I could not measure case expansion. Low pressure would expand the case to .001. HI pressure would expand the case to .001 and it was impossible to work with. Dangerous Game rifles SHOULD NOT HAVE TIGHT target chambers! They need to be loose. Tight chambers do not allow things that should be allowed, a piece of brass or a cartridge that is not quite up to specs, needs to be chambered and fired without difficulty. Too Tight, will get you in a bad place in the field.

I will need some feedback on case measurement, once some of you takes this to your data. It will help us all understand.

Now, this Sabatti of Sams is a great example to work with. Over the last few days I have been able to take case measurements and get great consistency matching pressures on the PTs with case expansion measurements. THe data I have does and WILL WORK with this Sabatti, and I can do this without a strain gage now and keep up pretty close to where I am with actual pressures.

Consistency is the KEY... You must use the SAME BRASS, I used HORNADY in this, as I would think it the most common available for you. If you don't have Hornady, get Hornady. You can develop your own measurements specific to your rifle if you are consistent, and methodical in your work. Using different brass may make a difference in expansion, you need to know this.

There is also a difference in NEW brass, and already fired, and resized brass. New brass will expand more on that first firing. I used fired brass, as that is all I have! I also used fired brass only during all the B&M case measurements for years. Don't mix NEW and Fired Sized.

Case measurement is a valuable tool and it does work. I have what I have come up with listed below on this sheet........




Now where exactly do you measure???? Before and After.... OK, about .335-.350 up from the BOTTOM of the rim. On a fired case, you will see it clearly, right on where expansion of the case starts, that is where to measure. Measure carefully, and turn the case until you get a consistent reading.

Measure roughly right here before and after......






I think with case measurement, case study, and keeping up with your velocity close, then I think you will be able to keep things safe, and within limits.

Give some feed back please on this, in your rifles and lets see what happens....

Michael

I have been asked several times this week why the inconsistency in some powder, even from the same lot#???

I don't really know, but I suspect "Environmental" conditions to be a major part of it with some powders. Once shipped from the powder factory, there is no telling where that powder has been and the conditions in which it was kept? Did it sit in a hi humidity warehouse for 6 months? Dry? Hot? Cold? There are lots of environmental conditions this stuff is stored in, some powders may very well be more effected than others by environmental conditions.

This would be my first thoughts on this.

Just saying............

Michael

May I ask the 500NE SABATTI'S bbl length?

And this thread has convinced me that my next D/R will be a 500 NE,
and it will be bought brand new and regulated with 510 grain BBW #13
flat tip bullets.

Michael,

Thanks once again for all of the valuable scientific work you and Sam are doing.

I've never been a fan of RL-15 as these fora are filled with the variability that powder seems to exhibit. The work you and Sam have done suggests it is even less stable than previously Considered. The opposite of some of the "extreme" powders out there - assuming the manufacturers claims are valid. Given your work, that assumption might live up to the saying associated with it.

Thanks again and keep on digging - you're hitting gold with every excavation

Doc my experiences with RL-15 mirror yours. Tried it several times with different wad/fillers and I got significant variations in velocity (a lot) and pressure.

RL 15 is not so bad, buy 20 lbs, mix it all together, and that will last a bit! No crap, it is a good powder for many many things, but you have to watch your batching! From one batch, keg, to the next!

Oh, Hey, I will be happy to BLEND SOME POWDERS for you guys????? Now that I got PTs back up and running... I can Blend? Who wants some of Michaels Special Elixir ??????? Guaranteed to Cure All Your Powder Woes....................





We have been working like hell for you, and have found some alternative powders that have not been tried, not here anyway, IMR 4064, and IMR 8208. Both are very promising, I ran the data to the top end on the IMR 4064, it looks good with 570s and better with 510s, pressures and velocities.

IMR 8208 is My Miracle Powder here for many things. Why not 500 Nitro too! Well, its a tad faster than you might be used to, but I was at 44500 PSI and 2050 fps with a 570 today in that Sabatti with 24 inch barrels. This tells me it is going to kick some ass with the 510/475s, and be another very viable option. I ran out of time before I got to the 510/475s, sorry, can only do so much!

Data is not posted yet on the B&M site, hope to gather the rest of the IMR 8208 data then get it online for you to look at.

Michael

Hey Michael,

Here's some hot off the press reloading info for you:

1963? That must be Michael seated on the left side of the bench :-)

Biebs, Doc, crap, I think that is me! Trying to get the old man on the left to Blend Some Powder, have some fun! Obviously you can see how much fun I am having.... HEH HEH...... Lets see I was just a tad over 3 1/2 yrs old there! That looks about right I reckon!

The kid cant be Michael---hes not wearing a black shirt----

I wish I could superimpose a caption over his head that says "When I get older, I want to start a thread on AR that goes 300 pages!!!"

quote:

Originally posted by Cross L:
The kid cant be Michael---hes not wearing a black shirt----

Momma was still dressing me then!

Good Evening Guys!

We have been rather busy the last couple of days, and some of that with the 500 Nitro and new data....

Over the weekend we ran some IMR 4064 data, last couple of days some IMR 8208 and working on some other things as well. In todays shortages of powder, I thought maybe we should look at all sorts of things, some that we have not investigated before. At least some alternatives with the shortages as they are.

Both of the above powders were successful and good solid data is available now. In fact, I just updated the data on the BBW#13 Sheet 3262013 pdf here.....

http://www.b-mriflesandcartrid...a-Barrel-Strain.html


I have a little story to tell you about today! You should like it.

First, let me make a statement..... Run out and buy ALL THE SABATTIS you can, they are the STRONGEST DOUBLE EVER MADE............




OK OK... Now I will tell you why!

Yes, I am Blending Powder and doing it in 500 Nitro! This is an area of study that just peaks my interest immensely, and now I have PTs running, I intend to do a lot of research in this area, to what end, I really don't know just yet, but I am convinced that one can do better with some blends. Now, this is not something for you to do at HOME.... Do NOT ATTEMPT THIS without proper instruction and equipment!

I thought about 500 Nitro last night, and I was already working with a favorite powder, IMR 8208, and of course the hot powder for 500 Nitro for us has been RL 15. Hell, lets put them together, and see if we can stabilize RL 15!!!!! HEH........

So I did, for this first go I was heavy IMR 8208 at 65% of the load, and 35% of course RL 15. I started very low for either powder at 85/Blended. 85 grs of either powder is low pressure, and should be even if combined to get a start at...... SHOULD BE, Being the operative thought here!

So I could not WAIT to get hooked up and see what was going to happen!!!! OK, even though we absolutely know that this is going to be safe, it has to be, one is a bit apprehensive of diving off into the great unknown. Although I had dabbled a bit last year with success in the 500 MDM, you really sometimes just don't know what might or could happen when combining things that have not been done before???? So yes, there is a tiny bit of apprehension. But I was to not be deterred by anything at this point!

OK, here goes, all hooked up, drop a big 570 gr Loaded Solid in the chamber, ker-plunk! So far so good! Carefully close the action, not disturbing the wires! Safety on! OK, good so far. Alright, hunker down, safety off, squeeze the trigger..... Boooommmmm... I can't wait to see what the computer says, so I turn quickly for a look at the screen...... 84000 PSI

I turn, look, I still have all my hands, fingers, eyes, arms, everything still attached, no blood, rifle still sitting in the bag, not blown all to hell....... WTF??????

OK I settle in, logic takes over, NO WAY that was 84000 PSI, gun would have been talking to me, NO SCREAMING AT ME, if that were the case. I slowly opened her up, brass slides right out good as gold, zero issues there! OK OK OK..... We have an hook up issue, electrical...... Change the wires out, check all the connections, everything checks out, good to go, here we go again.......
Booommmmmmmm............... 92000 PSI ........ OK screw with me once, fine, but I won't be screwed twice! I ain't buying it.... Still all arms, hands and finger intact, no blood, rifle good, no issues. Check chrono, 1856 fps, so no way in hell that was a 92000 PSI load!

Screw this, go back, load up again... Same load 85/Blended... Back and hook up PT 1. I either have a bad strain gage, or PT 2 is screwing with me! Booommmm..... Now that is better... 27757 PSI!

And we are off and running now............

Later I finished with PT 2 on this little adventure, it appears it was a software glitch, once the computer was restarted, PT 2 software restarted, it was working like a champ the rest of the day.....

I ended up with 90/Blended at 44839 PSI and 2060 fps with 570 #13 Solids.... Not too bad, numbers were extremely tight as well.

Big Fun.........




Michael

BLENDING POWDERS is bad enough but its in MY GUN!!!!!!!!!!!!Next thing for all I know the barrels will be cut to 16 inches!!!!!!!! I guess I was not thinking when I left that rifle. Michael had been drinking shine and misunderstood when I said keep the OSR gun and see if you can blow it up! I guess this will teach me to be careful with what I say from now on.

Sam

Sam,
I'm picking your gonna be lucky to get that gun back !

I think he's taken a bit of a "shine" to your Sabbatti, pun intended.

Paul,

Michael is taking a shine I think and if he finds a load that works with those 350 grain non cons he's done. I should have sold the other week when he made an offer. I'm trying to talk him into having a double built in: .500 X 500NE 3 1/4. Give him an extra 1/4 inch of case and a .500 bullet he's got his ultimate. Oh it will have 18 inch barrels too.

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
BLENDING POWDERS is bad enough but its in MY GUN!!!!!!!!!!!!Next thing for all I know the barrels will be cut to 16 inches!!!!!!!! I guess I was not thinking when I left that rifle. Michael had been drinking shine and misunderstood when I said keep the OSR gun and see if you can blow it up! I guess this will teach me to be careful with what I say from now on.

Sam

It is a bit of a concern to leave things with me.... There is just no telling what I might take a notion to try? LOL.........

I thought I would show a few pics of the last few days of 500 NE work.......









Michael

Michael,

I always enjoy pictures of your range. I'm going to build one of those some day soon. Until then, here is a picture of my range. God Bless TEXAS!!

quote:

God Bless TEXAS!!

Like I always say, Second Greatest State in the Union!



OK, so I know I am not wasting time in areas of study YOU guys don't need or want, help me out a bit so I can better help you.

Did the "Case Measurement" study in 500 NE help anyone?? Most of you already do this and know this????? Questions?

I have still have a few powders here that we will try out over the next week or two, but does anyone have a powder and charge you would like some numbers on????? If I have the powder, I will be happy to load some up for you?? Getting powder, Might be an issue?

What can I do here to help you guys out? What do you need, that I can do? Especially that I still have Sam's rifle, and have not yet blown it all to hell, and I am using some select pieces of LionHunters brass... LOL.........

Michael

Yes Michael,

I looked back over the data and I didn't see it but may have missed it. Since I can't locate RL-15 it appears that I'm going to be married to the IMR 4007 SSC and since I plan to shoot those lighter CEB bullets, can you run the loads for the 510gr #13 and 475gr Non-Cons with IMR 4007 SSC. If you already did, and I missed the data, my apologies.

I don't know what others across the country are finding in terms of powder, but I can still purchase just about as much of the 4007 as I want and at will. Several local stores carry it.

Thanks again for all the work you do there in the Second Best State in the Union!!

quote:

I'm going to be married to the IMR 4007 SSC and since I plan to shoot those lighter CEB bullets, can you run the loads for the 510gr #13 and 475gr Non-Cons with IMR 4007 SSC. If you already did, and I missed the data,

Todd

Absolutely, it would be my pleasure to do so. I will get geared up on that, and either complete it by Friday or Saturday at the latest.....

Good thinking, And that is why I asked, I did not think of that....

Michael

You changed your avatar! Looks good.

Thanks again. Yep, I've got nearly 10 lbs of it now and it's available.

BTW, I did find 4 batches of 5lbs each in RL-15 yesterday on GunBroker. Daayyyyuuummm! The bids were already up to $250 plus shipping with a couple of days remaining. Those will easily end up being 300% of the normal retail price by the time the auctions close. I would love to call that gouging in the face of adversity, however, it is purely market forces at work as it is an auction and every man bids what it's worth to him. I'm not quite that desperate. Not just yet!

Todd
Yes, changed Avatar, first time in a very long time, Love that B&M buffalo.... But the avatar got
squeezed.

I will sort that out for you first chance I get in the next day or so. Have you received the 510/475s yet?

I know of a 8 lb IMR 4198 went for over $500.00

And no, I did not buy or sell it, even though I would like to have some more IMR4198, that is what is fueling my 50 B&M Alaskan right now, and for the coming trip, but I have something like 8-9 lbs so I am good to go on it.

I hope this madness comes to a halt soon....................

Anyone else out there need me to do something, just holler! It does not take any longer to shoot a few more rounds! God I wonder how many rounds has been down that damned Sabatti? A bunch!

Michael

I'm hoping to get those lighter bullets either today or tomorrow. Looking forward to taking them to the range!

Hey Todd,

Were those photos taken on your lease?

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
Hey Todd,

Were those photos taken on your lease?

Yes, they were. Just a bit over 20 miles from my home! It's a great place to shoot / hunt / camp / barbecue, etc!

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
Hey Todd,

Were those photos taken on your lease?

Yes, they were. Just a bit over 20 miles from my home! It's a great place to shoot / hunt / camp / barbecue, etc!

10-4...the area looks pretty good.

Michael:

Again what a great job you and Sam are doing guys, I really commend you for your persistence and diligence.

As soon I am able to free myself from couple of the projects I took on, I will be loading some of those light weight 470 babies you sent me and will be out at the range blasting away. I will try to see what kind of velocities I will be able to ring out of them, of course at safe pressure and at the same time regulating in my gun.


Best regards

Malek
Good shooting/hunting and God's best

By the way Todd; that is some nice spread/range you get yourself out there. Keep on blasting away, sooner or later you will find you some RL-15.

Cheers

Best regards

Malek
Good shooting/hunting and God's best

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
I'm hoping to get those lighter bullets either today or tomorrow. Looking forward to taking them to the range!

I will have some data for you before then.... I should have something by this afternoon if all goes well.......
M

Got it Michael. Looks good. Better than IMR 4064 I think. But it still looks like RL-15 rules the roost concerning velocity for pressure. Looks like RL-15 is just going to be very hard to beat in the big Nitro Express rounds!

I just received the new lighter weight bullets from CEB. Mailman just left!

I don't know if I'll have a chance to get them loaded and out to the range this afternoon but I should have a chance to try them out by tomorrow at the latest.

I'll let you know how they work Michael!