Well the 500 exploration is over for now. I picked up my gun from Michael today and the gages are probably coming off it.
One very interesting thing I'll tell you about doubles. They can be a joy and a pain in the @##. You remember several posts back when Michael shot the nice groups with our final load of WW760, the target with all the blood on it? I had made a new peep sight for this gun to bring my point of impact down a little. So when I got to Michael's today I loaded that same load of WW760 with same can of powder and same box of bullets and primers. I shot two lefts and rights and had two holes about 4 inches apart. What is going on here. First thought was my barrels had separated because this gun has shot so well but we had put over 300 rounds through it. Went back to the old load I was shooting of IMR 4350 that regulated for be earlier, same stinking thing 4 inches apart. OK I'm getting upset now. Go back load two 4350, two VN550 and two WW760. I shoot the 4350 and VN550 loads and 4 inches apart. OK I give Michael the WW760 loads, the same load he shot the bloodly target with and left right are on top of each other dead center between all my shots. Looked just like his bloodly group. My shots all match up but are left and right of center. Just goes to show you that just because a load regulates for one person doesn't mean it will regulate for another. I've said this for a long time and few believed it or understood it. Its all in how you hold the gun. Michael and I are the same size give or take a lb or two and inch or two. We shoot the bolts guns identical but not the double. So its back to the drawing board for me to find a load that shoots well for me.

Oh and this was just the start of a bad day all around. Nothing seemed to go right today shooting a number of things!

Sam

I reckon that 500 Nitro got to liking it here in the lab, better than at Sams house! Reckon it just wanted to stay with me, so it was showing out for Sam! can't figure anything else on that! Add another odd thing in the world of shooting, to many I have seen in the past! This one is close to being "strange" however I must say!

quote:

Oh and this was just the start of a bad day all around. Nothing seemed to go right today shooting a number of things!

You know, I suppose every day cannot be a grand success! Take the good days with the bad days, figure out how to fix tomorrow! Very frustrating day today. New .500 and .475 Raptors, probably too heavy, did not shoot well, troublesome things! First one thing, then another.

I mentioned this on terminals, but we did manage to get a "Low End Velocity Shear Point" of the 535 BBW#13 NonCon--it's 1800 FPS at impact. Taking the BC we got today, if you start at 2100 fps you are at or just above 1800 fps at 75 yards. As things are right now, keep impacts at 75 yards or less for positive shear of the blades.

Michael

Sam,

Sorry for your disappointing day.

Thanks for the suggestion via email!

Sam and Michael- again my thanks for your great efforts and education.

I just measured the distance between my shots and it was 3 inches not 4 so not quite as bad as I thought.

I wasn't too worried about Michael wanting to keep my double, he hates opening them. The thing he likes the most is watching the brass fly over his shoulder. We were all lucky he put up with my doubles as long as he did.

Michael again thanks for all the help!!!!!!!!

A bad day shooting is better than a good day working!

Sam

Michael probably likes Jack in the Box and those snakes in a can gags too!

Michael and Sam,

Thanks again for all the work you guys have done. Thanks Michael for getting the low end shear point on the 500NE.

Todd

CCMDoc and Todd you are welcome. Even with bad days it is fun doing all of this. Wish I had time to explore more.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Michael and Sam,

Thanks again for all the work you guys have done. Thanks Michael for getting the low end shear point on the 500NE.

Todd

Todd

And all 500 Nitro guys, based on the work yesterday with the low velocity shear point, I instigated a change in the cavity--wider. This should bring low velocity shear down to 1600-1700 fps. Any and all new .510 BBW#13 NonCons will have a wider cavity, we decided to keep the exact same length of bullet, to match the 570 Solid--so the new NonCon might weigh 525-530 grs, not 535. Length and bearing surface is far more important to regulation, and keeping the same POI as the solid than weight. Weight is of little import unless you go more than about 20% difference.

Just FYI--I think we needed a lower shear point than 1800 fps. I am changing all the .500 caliber NonCons as well for my use.

Of course you should not be shooting those any further than an 1800 fps shear point anyway, but this gives you a lot more room for starting velocity as well as added range if needed.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Michael and Sam,

Thanks again for all the work you guys have done. Thanks Michael for getting the low end shear point on the 500NE.

Todd

Todd

And all 500 Nitro guys, based on the work yesterday with the low velocity shear point, I instigated a change in the cavity--wider. This should bring low velocity shear down to 1600-1700 fps. Any and all new .510 BBW#13 NonCons will have a wider cavity, we decided to keep the exact same length of bullet, to match the 570 Solid--so the new NonCon might weigh 525-530 grs, not 535. Length and bearing surface is far more important to regulation, and keeping the same POI as the solid than weight. Weight is of little import unless you go more than about 20% difference.

Just FYI--I think we needed a lower shear point than 1800 fps. I am changing all the .500 caliber NonCons as well for my use.

Of course you should not be shooting those any further than an 1800 fps shear point anyway, but this gives you a lot more room for starting velocity as well as added range if needed.

Michael

Michael,

Agree with everything you said. I never thought about it until seeing your low velocity shear point on the 9.3's. It just started me thinking about some of the NE's that are only starting with 2000fps or so, such as with 24" barrels, or the 577 and 600.

It just goes to show, that new little items of knowledge are still popping up and you guys are doing a bang up (no pun) job of defining what does and doesn't work.

There are still threads being started that focus on the "Old" theories of what bullets are safe or not for use in doubles. I still see references to the Woodleigh FMJ's as being above reproach and all mono-metals being just short of evil. The data you guys have put together, especially concerning barrel strain, has removed the need to rely on opinion and given us objective comparisons to work with.

IMO, the CEB bullets are a great design and all, but I think the research you guys have done, and are doing, are going to have far reaching implications beyond this forum at some point in the future. I really hope you and Sam publish this research to go along with the great books of shooting reference.

Todd

quote:

I never thought about it until seeing your low velocity shear point on the 9.3's.

I know that you realize this, but the 9.3 Raptors are of course light for caliber. I would guess right now that these lighter Raptors are going to fall in line with that 2000 fps or so low end shear point.

Big difference moving up to the big bores, and larger BBW#13s, basically all have more "ass" to push forward, shearing blades at lower velocity. Good Example is the 9.3 255 BBW#13 NonCon--A Low Velocity Shear point of 1650 fps--Still 9.3, but a lot more tail end pushing those same blades, and same width cavity.

With this change in cavity of both my .500s and the .510 NonCon, this will bring those down to that 1600-1650 fps mark as well, I think! The cavities on both of these will be as big as we can get them, without broaching the walls of the outside meplat.

I tested the 420 and the 450 BBW #13 NonCons some time ago, largest cavity we can go with, and they shear down to 1600 fps---Honest, they actually shear down in the mid 1500s and a bit less--But I give you guys some margin there.

My dumbass never updated my 416 NonCons from the first runs--all the ones I have currently are smaller cavities than the newer 416s. I forgot about them, and I was testing the smaller cavity down to 1800 fps last week! I found out talking to Dan this morning, I am still shooting the small cavity! No worries, I have 15 boxes each coming of the real 416s--so I have to test those again!

Very pleased with todays work, everything going right today!

Soon as the new bullets in .510 are run I will get a low shear velocity. The weight is going to be 530 I think, not 535.

I see those threads from time to time when I am browsing as well. I can't believe that folks don't look around just a little bit to see what is what.

I think honestly that right here on our little forums we are changing the way the world will be shooting in the future. I know myself, and can only speak for myself, I can't imagine why I would ever use any sort of conventional bullet again in the field. Why would I use something that I know for a fact is inferior to what I have in my hands now? Never again! Midway is a bit sorry about my $500+ a month bullet orders I think, but oh well, I spend enough with them anyway! Just not bullets anymore! I have a new source for that. HEH HEH..........

Michael

Michael...I've been following this thread dogmatically....it's helped to substantially broaden out the 500NE knowledge base, and my 500 shooting.

Now, how about some work on the 505 Gibbs? Obviously the velocities can be cranked up well beyond the 500NE, and closer to other 500 bolt gun chamberings out there. Did I miss something in searching your prior work?
Thanks

Hey Bob

Thanks buddy! I am very pleased you got something out of it. I learned a hell of a lot myself. It's always a great learning experience here, seems we learn something every day. Too bad I have lost so many brain cells now that I don't remember any of it!

Why 505? Why not just squeeze that down to a proper caliber--.500! HEH..........

Bob, if I had a 505 there would be all sorts of data on it. Problem is, I don't have one, and not likely to get one anytime soon. Things are just too big, the rifle that is.

I am not sure I have even seen a 505 in my life? If so, don't recall. I have a 510 Wells, and other than doing test work with it the thing is totally useless.

Michael

quote:

Now, how about some work on the 505 Gibbs?

+1

Thought I would let you 500 NE guys know that I have ordered new CEB bullets in 475 grain Non Cons and 510 grain solids. These bullets should give double shooters a light less recoiling bullet that will be perfectly capable of killing any game. I had these bullets made for my Sabatti 500 to reduce recoil as it is a light weight gun for the 500 NE. Some modified CEB 535 grain non cons to weigh 475 grains shot really well in my gun.
Michael will be getting some of thes bullets also for testing. I will not be able to do much with them until I get through my busy season. I hope to get some pressure data in the 500 NE by July. I plan on using these new bullet for my Australian hunt for buffalo.

Sam

Hi Sam.

Will these 475gn'ers be a regular offering from C.E.B or will the standard remain at 535 ?

For a gun that has been regulated with 570's, what velocity does it take to regulate these lighter pills ?

Thanks in advance,
keen to see how they "slay".

Paul,

I sure the standard 535 and 570 .510 will remain. The 535 non con may have been changed to 525 with the bigger hollow. The new 475 non cons and 510 solids should be available to anyone I assume. I ordered enough for Dan to do the program on them. I think Michael is also getting a few of each. Anyone wanting any of these should contact Dan at CEB.

Sam

I have 5 boxes of each Solid/NonCon coming. I will do the LVSP on the NonCons, along with the updated 525 or so. All will have the wider cavity for a lower LVSP. Tested my 450 BBW#13 Saturday, LVSP below 1500 fps--Perfect shears at 1500 fps--but did not get time to test lower velocity than that. The .510s should be the same, or better.

I would think there is a good market for this combination with the bolt guns--it would be the one I would choose.

M

Is there a standard max pressure for the 500ne and if so what is it? I can find nothing on SAMMI regarding the 500ne.

quote:

Originally posted by Brain1:
Is there a standard max pressure for the 500ne and if so what is it? I can find nothing on SAMMI regarding the 500ne.

We have had long discussions, and much consideration, nashing of teeth and such on that very subject. Seems we really came up with nothing definitive from other sources, and we can't find anything either, as you note.

What we decided is to compare factory ammo loadings. We did that in 470 Nitro as well, and both 500 NE and 470 most factory loads are right around 45000 PSI. So we hooked it at 45000 PSI and went from there, with no ill results from any load at that pressure level. No sticky cases, no ejection issues, no signs of pressure at all. These two doubles we used to do the 470 and 500 Nitro work got a lot of rounds fired through them at these levels, and they did not suffer any ills either. We stopped at 45000 PSI. We did have loads in both that went well above 45000 at times, but we never got to the point of having sticky cases or tough ejection. So I figure 45000 as Max--Safe Pressure.

Right? Not sure--but it works for us.

Hope that helps a bit!
Michael

I would like to add that we used both current factory loads and original cordite loads to arrive at the figure of 45000 psi. Original cordite loads were very consistant even with them being very old. I think anyone would say that factory cordite ammo would be safe in any double. Some of the older Axite loaded ammo may not be safe. These pressures were all comparisons. I don't think Michael or myself are saying they are actual pressures.

Sam

Bringing this back to the top for those that may not have seen it.

Sam

Bringing this thread back to top for those interested in the 500 Nitro. There have been quite a few people asking about loads for this caliber.

Sam

The best DR caliber there is :-)

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
The best DR caliber there is :-)

, oh and

There are those more powerful (but heavy) and those lighter (but less powerful)....the 500 NE is the best combination of power, "shoot-ability", and weight that I've found...as much as I love the 577.

Michael and Sam, I've tried to look through all of the data that you've posted about various loads, so I apologize if I missed any. I know that you're not fond of fillers, but you guys seem like the experts in this field with the right equipment. My grandfather has shot cowboy action (SASS) and reloaded ever since I can remember, and he swears by using instant grits or cream of wheat (slightly compressed) as filler on reduced loads. Now I know there is a huge difference between a 44 mag and a 500 NE, but this still seems like it would word to me. Have you done any pressure tests using these ingredients as a filler for a reduced (practice)or Nitro For Black load? If not, would you be willing to? Thanks

500NitrEx,

The answer to your question about fillers, I have used just about every filler you could think of over the years. Lots of these fillers have been used by many others with no ill efect. In Michael's and my tests we found that all fillers gave higher pressures than the same loads without fillers. This stands to reason as you are getting better ignition with a filler thus better powder burn. In our filler test we did try grits which I have used many times. We got extreme pressures with this filler. In small capacity cases and light loads I don't think there is much of a problem. When trying to get full power loads I think you can get into big trouble using some fillers. We also noticed wide variations in pressures using certain types of fillers. It is my thought that some or maybe most of the problems caused in large capacity cases is do to the type of filler used not the type of powder used. I'm no expert but after seeing the results of our tests I strongly recomend not using a filler and if you have to choose a filler that does not compress. In straight walled cases I like using fiber, felt or card wads. The one exception would be foam wads, these seem to work very well and have very consistant results. If you go to Michael's B&M web site you can see the results of our filler tests in his additional researh part of his site. I hope this helps you with your question.
Page 6 of The Double Rifle Bullet of the Future thread has the filler test on it.

Sam

Sam, got a call from Daryl Lenkic (meplat) last night letting me know my order of .50 and .510 cal C.E.B's have arrived.

This means I'll be starting some loading/regulating work.
Can you remember what the loads were that you left with me in camp ?
I've ordered the 475gn non-cons and have just "upped" the order to include some 510gn ? solids ?
If you can tell me what powder and load you used it will give me some starting point.

Filler, no filler ?

Thanx,

Paul.

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
The best DR caliber there is :-)

Unless I invent a .500 Rimmed for double rifles ( ) I concur wholeheartedly--500 NE is the cats ass.

Don't hold your breath however for a .500 caliber rimmed, unless of course you look at 50 B&M Alaskan. Which I have two single shots coming, 1885 and Ruger #1. Those don't break open.

500 NE has always been my favorite big NE cartridge and caliber, hell I never even saw one until just a few years ago with one of Sam's, but it was always the top of the list, and exactly what I was after in my Winchester M70s. Magic when it comes to .500/.510.

Like many have said, it has all the attributes, can be had in a rifle that comes less than 12 lbs, still 4 lbs overweight, but not like an ultra bore. Plenty of punch, plenty of horse power, and if you use proper bullets, that enhances beyond what it has ever been.

500 NE--Really no where to go from there in a double.

Now, below is where you can find most of the actual data on what was done here on this thread, direct link.

http://www.b-mriflesandcartrid...a-Barrel-Strain.html

Direct link to the work done with fillers--470 NE (worst of the NE calibers)

http://www.b-mriflesandcartrid...0-Nitro-Fillers.html

Michael

Hey Paul,

My load with both the 475 and 510 CEBs was 100 grains of RL-15 and I think I used a 1/8 card wad. Filler isn't needed if you can't hear powder shake.

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

I mentioned this on terminals, but we did manage to get a "Low End Velocity Shear Point" of the 535 BBW#13 NonCon--it's 1800 FPS at impact. Taking the BC we got today, if you start at 2100 fps you are at or just above 1800 fps at 75 yards. As things are right now, keep impacts at 75 yards or less for positive shear of the blades.

Michael

I wish I had read this BEFORE I loaded the 535 gr. non cons. Oh well, the pioneers get the arrows.

Don, Just shoot them up close and the bullet will shear. If it doesn't then you have a solid.
I shot buffalo in OZ with 535 and they worked fine.

Sam

Thanks Sam. I had intended to use them on a (non dangerous) critter of opportunity out to 125 yards. I will have to close the distance or possibly get the updated CEB from Dan at the show in Harrisburg next month.

quote:

Originally posted by DoubleDon:

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

I mentioned this on terminals, but we did manage to get a "Low End Velocity Shear Point" of the 535 BBW#13 NonCon--it's 1800 FPS at impact. Taking the BC we got today, if you start at 2100 fps you are at or just above 1800 fps at 75 yards. As things are right now, keep impacts at 75 yards or less for positive shear of the blades.

Michael

I wish I had read this BEFORE I loaded the 535 gr. non cons. Oh well, the pioneers get the arrows.

Eh… guys… Unless this photograph is mislabled the LVSP is 1500fps with the 530gr .510 CEB BBW#13 HP NonCon…

...and this was without the use of Talon Tips! [Extracted from page 238 of Terminal Bullet Performance thread, BB Forum.]

So this gives a 500fps range with a 2000fps MV before petals stop shearing; shouldn't this give a range somewhere between 125yds and 150yds without using Talon Tips and perhaps 150yds to 175yds with Talon Tips?

Don, Sam, Jim

I changed the width of the Cavity on all the .510s, and .500s at that time. The 535 .510 became the 530 NoNCon....... 530 NonCon will take new tips, same as the 475 NoNCon in .510.

Don, you need to just get some of the 530s, new version for the hunt---Use the 535s for whatever else. Get some Talon Tips while you are "Getting"...... Makes a difference.

Michael

Don,

Like Michael said get some of the new 530s and put tips in them. I was amazed at the difference the tip made in impact on buffalo. Now I was using the 475 gr tipped .510s and the 535 gr non tipped on my OZ hunt. The 475s smoked buffalo, not saying the 535s didn't work but after shooting a few with the 475 tipped non cons I used those until I ran out. The starting velocity of the two loads was almost the same but the down range velocity of the tipped was higher and you could see the difference. I had never thought you lost so much velocity in 50 yards with a flat tip. Thanks to Michael for having a chrono down range. Left my 535s for Paul to use in his gun. All of my non cons will be tipped in the future in my doubles.

Sam

Michael and Sam, thanks again for the info!

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Hey Paul,

My load with both the 475 and 510 CEBs was 100 grains of RL-15 and I think I used a 1/8 card wad. Filler isn't needed if you can't hear powder shake.

Sam

Thankx Sam, I can get any amount of R15 here at home so have no issues replicating that load.
Have you experimented much with the load ?

Bummer though, I think I may have forgotten to order Talon tips with the slugs !

Paul,

No I have not experimented at all with these lighter bullets, other than shooting your buffalo. It was kind of a last minute deal to get Dan to run them for me and the first load I tried shot perfect in my Sabatti so I stopped. Now the velocity of this load isn't much faster than the heavier bullets. I think you can safely up the load and get more velocity. As long as your gun regulates well with the loads you come up with. Michael's Pressure trace equipment is trashed so we can't hook up my 500 and test it again with these new bullets. Hey if you forgot tips I think we might be able to send you some.

Sam

I gotta say, with no more experience than I have with true doubles, (SOME on here don't consider a Blaser a true double) that there is an awful lot of work that has gone into this testing. Don't think that reading through it once will suffice. I knew I had a lot to learn and you guys are helping tremendously. Thanks Sam and Michael.