Hey Michael,
In my post above...where I said bigger is not always better...I was talking weight not diameter.

I know that clarification must be clear for Michael to support!

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Hey Michael,
In my post above...where I said bigger is not always better...I was talking weight not diameter.

I know that clarification must be clear for Michael to support!

Lane, thanks for clearing that up, while I understood that, as I know you better, some might not have.

Which brings me to a thought that also might help clear some things up as well. Let me see if I can line this up proper, so we can understand.

How do we increase our effectiveness on animal tissue in the field? Increased Trauma Inflicted!

1. Type Projectile.
2. Velocity, assuming projectile integrity.
3. Diameter, or Caliber.

OK, for everything to be Equal, across the board, lets choose the same projectile, that is not limited by its velocity. There are but a few. Brass NonCons, Cup Points, and perhaps a TSX type copper bullet as well. In this case, lets choose the Brass NonCon. This sorts out #1, type projectile.

Velocity. I was never a high velocity fan. Mainly because many conventional bullets cannot stand but a limited amount of velocity before performance, or penetration becomes less. Todays NonCon, there is NO LIMIT to the amount of velocity. But, even with conventional bullets, velocity makes a difference. Point in fact.

Back in the day, I loved 45/70. .458 caliber, big bullet, moving slow, 1800 or so fps, small gun, Marlins Guide Gun. I figured it had to be the hammer of Thor! That is until I took it to the field. I already had some great experience with 458 Winchester, and lighter bullets 400s at 2350 fps, it was the hammer of Thor, no doubt. I watched my Win M70 458 Win with 400 Swifts just hammer zebra, wildebeast, kudu, eland, sable, and 3 lions straight to the dirt, very impressive. Not so with 45/70, very little trauma inflicted, no hammer of Thor, critters running off for long distances when well hit, there was little animal reactions to the shot. Even chasing warthogs for 500 yards before they piled up and died with good frontal hits! Very disappointing. Today, choosing a better projectile, a Brass NonCon, does seem to increase the effectiveness of the 45/70, and especially choosing one that we can get more velocity, without sacrifice of penetration. We have increased the "Effectiveness" of the 45/70 by choice of #1.. Projectile. Now, if we take that same projectile, and we can run it 250 fps faster in a 458 Win or similar, then we have increased the effectiveness of the SAME CALIBER... By increase of #2... Velocity.

Well, how about #3... Caliber? In 2006 I went to the field with the first 50 B&M.. It was a shorter version of todays at 2.00 inches, and it ran typical 45/70 velocities, only it was .500 caliber. I was running a 500 Hornady at 1850 fps, 400 Sierra at 2000 fps, and a 385 Remington at 2100 fps. Very close, maybe slightly more than 45/70. My total expectations were 45/70 effectiveness, no more. Then I started seeing eland, wildebeast, zebra absolutely pounded to the ground, exactly like they were being hit with 458 Win with those 400s at 2350 fps!!!! I was amazed at how effective this increase in "Caliber" was, with conventionals! I had just increased my "Effectiveness" by #3... Caliber.

Lever Actions are like Double Rifles, they are limited in their velocity compared to bolt rifles simply because of the limited pressures the action can withstand. So how do we increase the effectiveness in the field with these two limited pressure actions?

The answer today is we can do ALL 3 to increase the effectiveness of these actions. Our Choice of Projectile is #1. We have better choices now, than even just a few years ago. More effective projectiles, NonCons +. But until VERY RECENTLY, we have not been able to increase velocity, simply because of Pressures. We got some increase in velocity with the BBW#13 because of the bands and bearing surface, which was a plus, no doubt.

But the other way, by #3... Caliber, has been in effect a long time. If you have two equal projectiles, assume projectile integrity, then a .510 caliber at 2100 fps will hit harder than a 458 caliber at 2100 fps. Now, not limited by pressure, I can take a 458 and choose a NonCon projectile, run it to 2400 fps, and it will be more effective than the .510 at 2100 fps. But, if I take that .510 and run it to 2400 fps........ Then it will be more effective than the .458!

How to increase velocity in the double? Can't do it by the same weight bullet at higher velocity, pressures catch up with us! But now, we know, at least in ONE INSTANCE, we can reduce the weight of the projectile, lets assume .510 caliber, and common weight 570 grs, to 510 grs, weight equal pressure, run the 510 at 2285 fps and REGULATE, another limiting factor with doubles, and not sacrifice penetration and increase effectiveness by #2.. Velocity! We can do the same in the lever guns as well! All the while, without ever sacrificing our main component of terminal ballistics, Penetration!

Not always this easy of course..... But with just a little bit of thought, little bit of work on your part, even now, you can increase your success rate, you can increase your performance in the field by all three of these factors, and can do it in your double rifle.

#1... Projectile
#2... Velocity
#3... Caliber


Just some random thoughts before heading off to the "Lab" and the range this morning!

Michael

sorry for posting this here its sort of off topic but sort of not. I was going to start another thread and can move it.

Is conventional double rifle regulation obsolete with the advent of modern projectiles?

Should we start thinking about having our new double rifles regulated with non-convetional "light for caliber loads".

There does not seem to be a down side to the lighter pills. Less recoil, more velocity and better terminal performance (with modern projectiles) from traditional NE calibers.

Why not just get your 500NE builds regulated for the 510 grn bullet right from the start? If you reload it doesn't matter.

Or for instance the 450NE I am having built, from all the bullets i have been looking into it seems like the 450grn pill is optimal with modern bullets. It would do what? 2300fps over a full house load? That seems to me like big medicine.

Maybe i'm missing something or haven't looked into this enough. Why shouldn't our modern doubles evolve with modern projectiles.

Kelly.

BC: My450 was regulated with Factory Hornady ammo as it's readily available and "good enough". I've since switched to 450Gr CEB NON-CONS and 40gr Solids with no problem. I'm sure you can have our rifle regulated with whatever you want, the issue becomes one of supplying your rifle maker with the ammo.

It is not my intention to look for advise, just trying to start conversation.

Sorry Jorge that came off short. Al I have done is ask for advise on this forum. Just trying to contribute.

Michael458
What powder are you and Sam going to recommend if the RL15 shortage doesn't clear itself up? For right now, I'm in good shape but at 100 + grains of powder per shell, my supply won't last that long if I really get out and shoot my .500 very often.

Rick,

As mentioned elsewhere, I've switched back to IMR 4007 SSC. That's what I used prior to RL-15. I've been in 4 gun stores over the last 3 days. All of them had a good supply of 4007 SSC. I purchased 6 more pounds today.

Todd-

What was your load with IMR 4007 SSC under the CEB solids for our Merkel 500NE?

Just want to prepare for all contingencies.

quote:

Originally posted by pagosawingnut:
Michael458
What powder are you and Sam going to recommend if the RL15 shortage doesn't clear itself up? For right now, I'm in good shape but at 100 + grains of powder per shell, my supply won't last that long if I really get out and shoot my .500 very often.

WW 760 looked very good to me, and IMR 4350 did well too.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
Todd-

What was your load with IMR 4007 SSC under the CEB solids for our Merkel 500NE?

Just want to prepare for all contingencies.

105gr of IMR 4007 SSC. I got this directly from the Barnes #4 manual Mike. The load for the TSX is a bit lighter but I used the data for the Banded Solid as it more closely approximates the CEB bullets. Please do work up to it however as all warnings of good reloading practices apply considering powder lot variations. I liked the 15 a bit more as it seemed to tighten the groups ever so slightly. But, as mentioned, at this time, it seems to be available where 15 isn't.

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
Todd-

What was your load with IMR 4007 SSC under the CEB solids for our Merkel 500NE?

Just want to prepare for all contingencies.

Mike,

Michael also tested IMR 4007 SSC and the data is listed in his stuff on his web-site. It was definitely a viable powder.

quote:

Originally posted by malek:


It only makes me wonder though, what would a 470 do with treatment like this!!!! Just wondering.


Malek
Good shooting/hunting and God's best.

Malek

Because of the 475 B&M, bullets are already available for you to check out in your 470. With the success of the 500 Nitro, you are correct that you might be able to get increased performance with the 470 as well. And with that caliber you need everything you can get..... Sorry, had to could not help myself.. LOL.............

Available in .474 caliber is a fantastic 450 gr #13 Solid and matching 420 gr #13 NonCon..... Even less that is designed for the 475 B&M Super Short... A 350 gr #13 SOlid and matching 320 gr #13 NonCon. My Son Mark David used the 320 #13 NonCons on Buffalo with Paul T this past August, with incredible success... Doing around 2300 fps as I recall.... Hammered buffalo, including one very large big bodied Bull. Yes, 320 gr BBW#13 NonCon in 475 Super Short "Buffalo Hammer"....



Michael:

Thanks for the info and since My 470 needs all the help that I can get it, . I have been considering the use of your 450gr Solids in it. On the other hand, some folks did report on another thread that they have been getting around 2250 with the 500gr CEB solid out there 470s. Now I am not sure what kind of pressure those loads were running at, but I suspect not much since the CEBs are known to run around 100f/s faster than conventional bullets. Any experience you had running them faster than norm in your tests and if so what kind of pressure you were getting and at what velocity?

I am going to search your other thread and see if I can find any info. mean while if you happen to know where it is you can save me a looooooooooooots of time, if you know what I mean.



Best regards

Malek
Good shooting/hunting and God's best.

Males,

There was a very good thread here on the DR Forum regarding Mike70....'s (can't recollect his full AR moniker) testing of CEB bullets in his 470 NE. From my recollection the penetration in his bullet box (constructed like Michael's) was in the 68" range with the 500gr CEB BBW#13 FN Solid (NE banding). I also seem to recollect that velocity with the CEB and NF solids was higher than conventional C&C FMJ style bullets.

So search this forum first, then Michael's Terminal Bullet Performance thread...

Thanks; I will try to look up the thread you mentioned, mean while I ended up last night reading the first full page in the bullet of the future thread. It has most of the testing done with the 470. Also today I went on Michael's web site and searched it out till I found the 470 testing results.

For some reason I did not see much gain in velocity over the other bullets as many have reported are getting, but reduction in pressure and strain yes.


Best regards

Malek
Good shooting/hunting and God's best.

Malek,

In the 470 tests Michael and I did we didn't do much testing of lots of different loads. 106 of IMR 4831 worked so good and was a load that most people use in the 470. At the time of testing we weren't that interested in working up loads for lighter weight bullets. Now that there are several good lighter .474 bullets out there it gives the 470 new life. I no longer have a 470 so I can't help too much with load data. I would start with a standard RL-15 load for a 500 gr bullet and then work up a grain at a time with the lighter bullets until you get the velocity you want and proper regulation. As long as you gun opens easily and cases fall free of chambers before the extractors engage you should be fine on pressure.

Sam

quote:

At the time of testing we weren't that interested in working up loads for lighter weight bullets. Now that there are several good lighter .474 bullets out there it gives the 470 new life.

At that point in time we considered traditional weights because of regulation concerns. And, over all, in most all calibers/cartridges for doubles we were correct, most rifles seem to regulate with the #13s without much of an issue..... Lighter bullets to increase performance were not considered until the last few months.......

Michael

Now, speaking of lighter bullets, and increased performance standards, we move right along to part of yesterdays work, continued work I should say, with the .510 caliber, 510 gr BBW#13 SOlid and its matching NonCon, the 475 BBW#13 HP in the mighty 500 Nitro Express.

After the incredible results with Sam's Sabatti on 2/20/2013, Sam decided we had to look at what his BRAND NEW Heym 500 Nitro would do, with these same bullets, and same loads. This Heym has a set of 26 inch LONNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNG......... Very LONG Barrels, at least to me! Personally, I think Sam should have taken advantage of this NEW BULLET TECH, and chopped those barrels of to about 18..... Maybe as long as 20 inches.......

Oh Please, I can see some of you now...........

Anyway...........

The Heym did incredibly well, We took velocity with the 510 #13 Solid to a full 2350 fps +, and I say plus, because that was the reading at 1 gr less RL 15, than we tried. Our last load, we did not get a reading?

We had a sort of a malfunction when we were testing the OSR barrel in .458 with a steel #13, in which one of those bullets took out the chrono screens! So we had to work a bit to get the chrono back up and running, and we missed a few velocities here and there.

So in reality, we went beyond 2350 fps with the 510 BBW#13 Solid, and the Heym soaked it up like a pro, and cases just fell out of the gun, zero signs of any pressures at all. From 2261 fps up to beyond 2350 fps it was shooting fine at 25 yds, had not crossed that we could see. One thing about the Heym, its got a tiny tiny little front sight, I think Sam is going to make some modifications to that before even considering shooting beyond 25 yds...

We moved right along to the matching 475 #13 NonCon HP.... We were able to take it to 2450 fps without issues, no pressure signs, no problems............. Put a Talon Tip in this, and you have a buffalo smasher.... I know, because this is the velocity I run a 450 #13 in my own 500 MDM, and it gets a buffalos attention in a very serious way!

Because of the velocity, your penetration with the 510 #13 Solid will be as much, and a bit more than the 570 #13 Solid. In addition this velocity absolutely knocks the hell out of anything it hits, a noticeable difference, a visually noticeable difference in how this hits animals. Even if penetration was ever so slightly less, you would still be ahead by hitting so hard up front with increased trauma. But, fortunately with this bullet design, you CAN in fact, have your cake, with the icing, and eat it as well. And, why not just add some ice cream with it while you are at it.

No Compromise here................

Load data has been updated, and is available here;

http://www.b-mriflesandcartrid...a-Barrel-Strain.html

Approach Load Data with EXTREME CAUTION ALL DOUBLE RIFLES ARE NOT CREATED EQUAL.....

Oh, I almost forgot, would you like to see Sam's new Heym... Maybe we can call it the "Super Enhanced Heym" now, with these bullets..............

Of course, this barrel just won't do..............................
















Sam, bring it back down Saturday, Yes, the Heym, I just sent Chip for some new hack Saw Blades, we will work on and fix this Heym's barrels on Saturday.................................


Michael

Michael,

I'LL bring my Sabatti and you have the cash and saw blades. We'll chop and lop. HUMMM maybe a 16 inch double 500 NE. Hey maybe you can buy one of those DREMEL TOOL REGULATED guns for a song to chop off.

Sam

Michael,

I am curious how the 510 grain and 475 grain bullets regulated compared to the 570/530 versions out of the same rifle? Major differences or just some tweaking needed?

The reason I ask, is because I am loading up some ammo to regulate an under construction double. I would love to be able to develop a load for the 510/475 CEBs as well as the current 570/530 versions.

Thoughts?

STGS,

I'll try and answer your question since I'm the owner of the double we used. I have found that most doubles if regulated properly with a heavy bullet can usually be loaded with a lighter bullet to shoot close to the same as the heavier one. The faster lighter bullet produces less recoil but leaves the barrel sooner thus will shoot into the same group. Sometimes the lighter bullets will cross if velocity is too high. Most of the time the load can be adjusted to get it shooting properly. The Sabatti 500 I have likes just about everything I put it it but when we tried a 350 grain bullet it crossed when we got to the max load. When we reduced the load on it to stop crossing its velocity was about the same as the 475 gr bullets so it didn't make since to use that bullet except for a reduced recoil load. Regulation is a matter of recoil and barrel time. This is why you may have to adjust the load even with the same weight bullet the gun was regulated for. I hope this helps.

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Malek,

In the 470 tests Michael and I did we didn't do much testing of lots of different loads. 106 of IMR 4831 worked so good and was a load that most people use in the 470. At the time of testing we weren't that interested in working up loads for lighter weight bullets. Now that there are several good lighter .474 bullets out there it gives the 470 new life. I no longer have a 470 so I can't help too much with load data. I would start with a standard RL-15 load for a 500 gr bullet and then work up a grain at a time with the lighter bullets until you get the velocity you want and proper regulation. As long as you gun opens easily and cases fall free of chambers before the extractors engage you should be fine on pressure.

Sam

Thanks sam; what you are suggesting does make sense; I will follow your advice when times come to play with them light bullets, mean while I am working on the heavy ones now.

That new Hymen of yours is gorgeous, congratulations on a very fine rifle.

Now you have the Hymen, what are you going to do with your Sabatti, let Michael have his way with it and hack at it and cut them barrels down to 18" or perhaps 16".




Best regards

Malek
Good shooting/hunting and God's best.

quote:

Now you have the Hymen

quote:

That new Hymen of yours is gorgeous

Malek




Its been a Long time since I saw a "Hymen".................

Thanks Sam. I will continue down the same path and work into a load for the lighter bullets once the rifle is regulated with the heavies....

This work you guys have done has saved me countless hours of searching for a combination that works.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Now you have the Hymen

quote:

That new Hymen of yours is gorgeous

Malek




Its been a Long time since I saw a "Hymen".................

OMG..been a very long time since I heard that "word".

Doc M, outstanding work, as usual!

quote:

Originally posted by malek:

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Malek,

In the 470 tests Michael and I did we didn't do much testing of lots of different loads. 106 of IMR 4831 worked so good and was a load that most people use in the 470. At the time of testing we weren't that interested in working up loads for lighter weight bullets. Now that there are several good lighter .474 bullets out there it gives the 470 new life. I no longer have a 470 so I can't help too much with load data. I would start with a standard RL-15 load for a 500 gr bullet and then work up a grain at a time with the lighter bullets until you get the velocity you want and proper regulation. As long as you gun opens easily and cases fall free of chambers before the extractors engage you should be fine on pressure.

Sam

Thanks sam; what you are suggesting does make sense; I will follow your advice when times come to play with them light bullets, mean while I am working on the heavy ones now.

That new Hymen of yours is gorgeous, congratulations on a very fine rifle.

Now you have the Hymen, what are you going to do with your Sabatti, let Michael have his way with it and hack at it and cut them barrels down to 18" or perhaps 16".




Best regards

Malek
Good shooting/hunting and God's best.

And after all, why play around much with the 470 when you have access to the 500NE. I mean, how much time does the second string quarterback see in a regular season game?

Sam,
congrats on the new Heym, very fancy looking piece of kit that !
Should look very good propped up against a big dead buff !

Mike,
.510cal, 475gn's non-cons at 2450fps
Big buffalo medicine !!

Thanks Paul, I might let you shoot it next time I come over. You surely won't be doing much backup shooting when I'm shooting this gun with tipped 475 gr non cons at 2450 fps.

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Now you have the Hymen

quote:

That new Hymen of yours is gorgeous

Malek




Its been a Long time since I saw a "Hymen".................

Me too.



Best regards

Malek
Good shooting/hunting and God's best.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by malek:

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Malek,

In the 470 tests Michael and I did we didn't do much testing of lots of different loads. 106 of IMR 4831 worked so good and was a load that most people use in the 470. At the time of testing we weren't that interested in working up loads for lighter weight bullets. Now that there are several good lighter .474 bullets out there it gives the 470 new life. I no longer have a 470 so I can't help too much with load data. I would start with a standard RL-15 load for a 500 gr bullet and then work up a grain at a time with the lighter bullets until you get the velocity you want and proper regulation. As long as you gun opens easily and cases fall free of chambers before the extractors engage you should be fine on pressure.

Sam

Thanks sam; what you are suggesting does make sense; I will follow your advice when times come to play with them light bullets, mean while I am working on the heavy ones now.

That new Hymen of yours is gorgeous, congratulations on a very fine rifle.

Now you have the Hymen, what are you going to do with your Sabatti, let Michael have his way with it and hack at it and cut them barrels down to 18" or perhaps 16".




Best regards

Malek
Good shooting/hunting and God's best.

And after all, why play around much with the 470 when you have access to the 500NE. I mean, how much time does the second string quarterback see in a regular season game?

Hey Todd; I bett you the owners of the 577 and 600 will be saying the same to the 500 owners, but still you are happy with your choice.



I will till you some think, you send me that beautiful 500 VC of yours and you will convert me in no time, to be believer in the superiority of the 500. By the way I will pay for shipping.




Best regards

Malek
Good shooting/hunting and God's best.

Sam:

That is a magnificent Heym. Wow!

Can you tell us a little more about it, weight, barrel length, length of pull and such?

I have seen and handled a few Heyms but that is the prettiest one I have ever seen.

Thanks guys, Yep I like my Heym 500. Dave this is the new medium frame gun Newguy has been talking about. It has 26 inch barrels and fits me like it was made for me. I bought it from Chris at DSC so some of you may have drooled over it because I let Chris keep it for the rest of DSC and for SCI.

Sam

Well I finally got a chance to try some of Sam and Mike's loads for the lighter weight non-cons in my .500 V.C.
Posting this as it may be of interest to .500 shooters out there.

Notes;
* These loads prooved safe in MY rifle, with the batch of R15 that I was using.
All loaders are reccomended to start low and build up slowly watching for pressure as you go.
* The physical limitations of the range I shoot at dictate I cannot get my chronograph any closer to the muzzle than about 15 to 18 yds. All velocities were recorded at that distance.
Velocity loss in recordings taken at 15yds may be up to 50fps.
* Rilfe = V.C Roundbody action
* Barrel length = 23"
* Conditions; very hot (30 C), warm and bright.
* Projectile tested = 475gn C.E.B Non-con.

Load Vel Average
107gn R15 2220
107gn R15 2163 2184
107gn R15 2172
107gn R15 2183

108gn R15 2253
108gn R15 2265 2264
108gn R15 2266
108gn R15 2275

109gn R15 2268
109gn R15 2275 2283
109gn R15 2289
109gn R15 2300

110gn R15 2310
110gn R15 2315 2315
110gn R15 2340
110gn R15 2299

I also fired four Hornady (570gn DGX) factory rounds just to check their zero and to chronograph them.
They went between 1940fps to 2003fps !

The final load of 110gns of R15 brought the barrels in to shooting about two inches apart at 50yds.
Each barrel is shooting "groups" of around 1" or slightly more at that distance, the barrels are not crossing but are about 1" either side of the aiming point at 50yds.
They are also slightly low as is my preference for my shots to be hitting just slightly above my aiming pin at 50yds.

I noticed getting slight compression on the powder column from 109gns onwards.
There was no filler used in any of the above loads.

As more projectiloes are delivered I will be re-trying the 110gn load with a different tin of R15 as well as trying 111gns and 112gns of R15 behind these 475gn non-cons.

Cheers,

Paul.

500 Nitro guys.........

Holy Smoking Horse Piles..... We have a LOT OF DATA.... We were able to very successfully calibrate PT 2 with 500 Nitro, and have it spot on the money now.... We ran a lot of data with PT 1, all of it, control loads, matched up with early data done when we started, extremely close. That data today was used to calibrate PT 2 and both myself and Sam are very pleased, very satisfied with the results of what we see. So, this means we will never again be without a pressure testing device. PT 2s are available.

Problem is, PT 2 is NOT A STAND ALONE DEVICE. You cannot just hook it up and start getting correct readings. On every single rifle it has to be calibrated correctly. NOw, if you have old data for that rifle, then it can be calibrated to that. If not... You won't! PT 1 is a Stand Alone device, hook up, make the right measurements on your barrel, chamber ID, and other numbers, then PT 1 stands alone and will spit out correct, or very damn close to correct data! I will be getting an Oehler later this year, and I expect it to be a stand alone device.

At any rate, we have data, lots of it, and some of this is going to drive all of you insane! I can't even begin to tell you some things, but keep in mind, all powder is not created equal... Your Keg Of RL 15 IS NOT MY KEG of RL 15, even if it has the same Lot#!!!!!! All Brass IS NOT CREATED EQUAL! Brass makes even more of a difference than different kegs of powder! I still have the 500 Nitro, and still have some shooting and data to gather, Sam and I were at it all day today, and just ran out of steam. Once I can wade through everything, get it in something I can present to you so you can understand it, then I will let you know what is what, who is who, and how you can read this data, and equal it at home with your powder, and your brass.

You CANNOT just look at what is tested here, and expect to get the same thing with yours! Maybe, but most likely NOT.... But I think we can tell you how to look at it, and then make the right judgement of where you stand, and how to equal.

Now this also goes for what you see in the load manuals, and even more so actually. We collected some very incredible data today.

For those wanting to shoot the lighter bullets in 500 Nitro... You are SAFE in doing so, at the velocities Sam and I have done, we have reliable and repeatable pressure data on them! In fact, everything we have tested and documented with the lighter bullets and extraordinary velocities, are under and in most cases WAY under Max Safe Pressures.

Remember this....... Weight Equals Pressure, and one more little thing.... Velocity Equals Pressure
With these two little thoughts in mind, you will be in good shape by knowing those two things.

Thats about all I can say until I get all this data sorted out, recorded, and analyzed properly...

Some of this is going to blow you away... It did us!

Also, OSR barrel and barrel strains.. Yes, we did that too, and I will just have to get that together as well, and analyze that too.....

Until.........

Michael

I have the data input now, but really need to actually collect a bit more before talking a lot about it.

One thing we can point out very easy, is that every time you change major components, such as BRASS, or Powder, even the same Lot# of powder, you need to play safe, and keep a close watch.

Here is a sample of some of yesterdays work, this is with MY BLEND of RL 15 and the only difference is BRASS.... As you can see, major changes in velocity and pressures......

Michael:

First things first, that is wonderful news about P1 and P2 gages and the ability to keep up the testing and bringing out the new info.

For instance the findings in the above post, that is quite interesting to see that much of a difference and variation in velocity and pressure, just by changing the brass brand. An eye opener, I knew that it made a difference but not that much.

Excellent work my friend, thank you for keeping us informed.


Best regards

Malek
Good shooting/hunting and God's best

Interesting results. It appears the Jamison and Bell brass have a lesser case capacity than the Hornady and Federal brass - hence the higher pressure and velocity...

Michael once again you and Sam are going crackers with this 500NE

I have only used the South African S365 which I have no idea is compatible to yours, I think RL19 maybe???

But the Jamison cases I have takes the least amount, case capacity for me was 130.5 gr only, whilts the Hornady and Norma Nickel Plated was about as close to equal as can get at 134,9 and 135.2 respectively

Keep it rolling gents this is an education on how to do things right

Jim..... More than likely you are correct.

Kwan.... S365... I will check and see where that falls in. If you are loading 130+ grs, it must be very slow powder....

Yes boys, I have some more loads we need to do before I finish inputting data, and posting new data on the B&M site under "additional research".... I am afraid that is going to be a few days out yet before I can get that done. In between, I will try and get time to get the loads ready at least.

In talking with Todd I am also going to work on some solutions that you can do to assist you with knowing where you are, or close, with pressures. Of course nothing is as full proof as watching this on the computer, but there are ways you can keep an eye on things, one of which I think I can add to your list is actual measurements of cases unfired and fired, which we should have been doing anyway, but you know how it is! Keeping an eye on sticky cases, fall free before ejectors are engaged... no increase in velocity at top end, matching velocity with data, and add some case expansion measurements to this, you will be able to judge pretty close to where you are I think.

I will be working on this for you in the next few days, or next week.......

Michael

In addition, just want to mention this, Lot to Lot powder changes, different pressures in different brass, and other factors, this is not just limited to 500 NE, this is across the board, regardless of cartridge, caliber or rifle type! I see this all the time here.

Some of the methods we are going to explore, and already know, for you to keep a better eye on things also goes across the board in caliber, cartridge and rifle type. Measurements of cases is particular to a cartridge type, I know how to work with bolt cartridges and belted cartridges, but to be honest I don't know what measurements and amount of increases we can handle with big rimmed nitro cases, but we are going to see if we can learn what that is, and this too will carry over to other large rimmed nitro cases too. It will be specific to manufacturer of brass however, at least in some cases. And, it is going to be a little more difficult in the fact that there are so many different makers of double rifles, and variance in barrels, and chambers and this and that... But we can try to get some guidelines for you regardless.

Michael