Michael,

I'm pretty sure Kynoch is using Woodleigh softs in their ammo. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

We can pull one of those factory rounds and do a strain test to be sure. I had ordered solids but couldn't get any from Midway.

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
While guide and gun-trade tout sponsors are the bread and butter of AR and NE, this thread deserves an award. Let's call it the MM, for the Most Mercantile offering of the year.

Forgive me if someone else has already presented the award - reading one page was all I could manage.

Now I'm not marketing anything! This thread was for those who shoot doubles especially the 500NE. Research of powders and bullets and loads was the purpose of this thread.
I usually never let someones comment bother me but this one did. Maybe Michael and I should just stop posting our results!

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Michael,

That W760 sure looks good to me. What more could you want?

Sam

WW760 for sure is the shining star of these tests in 500 Nitro. At least so far. Somewhat of a surprise, but I swear, you just never know sometimes. Low pressures, high velocity. 40000 PSI is near 2100 fps. We did go to 114/WW 760, gave 2129 fps and still holding at 40000 PSI. To pin WW760 down, more work needs to be done. As I recall the 114/WW760 the trace was ugly, but that could have been electrical as well. Over more time we will check it out.

2050 to 2100 fps with this bullet is more than enough to do anything asked of it, and then it will still have plenty of steam left! No worries Pauly!

Michael

Yup - I have always been pleased with W760 in the 600OK, 600NE and 585AHR.
Nice to see some science supporting my preference.

quote:

Originally posted by srose:

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
reading one page was all I could manage.

Maybe Michael and I should just stop posting our results!

Sam

Sam,
No need to stop posting for fear of insulting his sensibilities - according to sambarman338, he wont be back.

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:
Yup - I have always been pleased with W760 in the 600OK, 600NE and 585AHR.
Nice to see some science supporting my preference.

I should have put a strain gage on that 600 OK!

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
While guide and gun-trade tout sponsors are the bread and butter of AR and NE, this thread deserves an award. Let's call it the MM, for the Most Mercantile offering of the year.
Forgive me if someone else has already presented the award - reading one page was all I could manage.

OK, I must be missing something? Most mercantile offering of the year? Exactly what is it we are offering? WW 760 perhaps? Except we don't work for any powder company? Bullets? Well, I have prejudices no doubt about it, but with good cause, because of "performance". Still yet, we don't work for any bullet company either? Not sure what mercantile is being offered?

I am a Forester by profession, Sam is a BlueBerry Farmer? I don't see Sam hocking off BlueBerries, and I ain't selling you any trees?

Perhaps I misunderstand the entire matter, if so, then I give you a "free pass", and my apology for the next comment.

If I don't have a misunderstanding of the comment, then "Free Pass" is gone, consider yourself an Uneducated Ass Wipe!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Michael,

That W760 sure looks good to me. What more could you want?

Sam

Try some H414 now.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Sam

Have 3 Kynoch loads left. Says on the box, 570 Soft. Is that a Kynoch soft? If so, then I suppose we need a barrel strain on that? Problem is, don't want that 42000 to 44000 PSI pushing behind it to cause interference? Maybe best to just run another Chamber test?

M

I believe they are Woodleigh softs.

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
While guide and gun-trade tout sponsors are the bread and butter of AR and NE, this thread deserves an award. Let's call it the MM, for the Most Mercantile offering of the year.

Forgive me if someone else has already presented the award - reading one page was all I could manage.

Kiss my !!!

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:

quote:

Originally posted by srose:

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
reading one page was all I could manage.

Maybe Michael and I should just stop posting our results!

Sam

Sam,
No need to stop posting for fear of insulting his sensibilities - according to sambarman338, he wont be back.

We can only hope!

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
While guide and gun-trade tout sponsors are the bread and butter of AR and NE, this thread deserves an award. Let's call it the MM, for the Most Mercantile offering of the year.

Forgive me if someone else has already presented the award - reading one page was all I could manage.

I've been off line for a few days and saw this nonsense comment...really stupid considering the excellent work and enlightenment Michael and Sam have brought into this dark subject and reported on this thread and others....takes all kinds of folk, smart and dumb.

Great reading your awesome work guys.

Just curious about W760. I would be very keen to see the results from the same lot of ammo when you try it in summer - say July / August in North Carolina (or Zimbabwe in November). May I suggest that you load up a bunch and put them away for 5 months.

I have seen 200 fps diffence in W760 loads in a 7mm WSM - between a cold day and a hot day here in New Zealand.

How is Sam's Sabatti going?

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Michael,

That W760 sure looks good to me. What more could you want?

Sam

WW760 for sure is the shining star of these tests in 500 Nitro. At least so far. Somewhat of a surprise, but I swear, you just never know sometimes. Low pressures, high velocity. 40000 PSI is near 2100 fps. We did go to 114/WW 760, gave 2129 fps and still holding at 40000 PSI. To pin WW760 down, more work needs to be done. As I recall the 114/WW760 the trace was ugly, but that could have been electrical as well. Over more time we will check it out.

2050 to 2100 fps with this bullet is more than enough to do anything asked of it, and then it will still have plenty of steam left! No worries Pauly!

Michael

Nakihunter that is a good plan. We know that ball powder tends to clump so it might be effected over time being compressed. We know that was a lot of the early problems with the 458 Win. Could have possibly been WW760 in it.
I might just load some and let them lay in the sun a while before testing.
The Sabatti has done well so far. Shoots very good and the only problem has been the forend latch spring isn't strong enough. I've had to keep an eye on it while shooting from the bench. It wants to creep a little. Planning on making a lock for it or putting a heavier spring in it.

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

OK, I must be missing something? Most mercantile offering of the year? Exactly what is it we are offering? WW 760 perhaps? Except we don't work for any powder company? Bullets? Well, I have prejudices no doubt about it, but with good cause, because of "performance". Still yet, we don't work for any bullet company either? Not sure what mercantile is being offered?

I am a Forester by profession, Sam is a BlueBerry Farmer? I don't see Sam hocking off BlueBerries, and I ain't selling you any trees?

Perhaps I misunderstand the entire matter, if so, then I give you a "free pass", and my apology for the next comment.

If I don't have a misunderstanding of the comment, then "Free Pass" is gone, consider yourself an Uneducated Ass Wipe!

Michael

Sorry Michael,
from your constant use of the link, I assumed you were the proprietor of B&M. My mistake; obviously I've never met such a devoted fan before.

quote:

Sorry Michael,
from your constant use of the link, I assumed you were the proprietor of B&M. My mistake; obviously I've never met such a devoted fan before.

sambarman

I am B&M-- I am the M, but it is not a business I assure you! Yes, I absolutely promote the B&M rifles and cartridges, bullets that go with them the works, but I make ZERO from it, and I know the B&M website has a lot of pages, 60+ right now, and if you would have bothered to read the "About Us" page you would have known that before spouting your mouth off being ignorant to the facts!

You can see that here;

http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/About-Us.html


And on that same page you will find this;

quote:

I personally am not in the gun business and don’t want to be. I am a shooter, hand loader, and hunter, the same as you. I developed these rifles and cartridges because of a personal need for something to satisfy my needs and objectives, and I have been extremely successful and lucky in the B&M adventure, and it is my desire to share it with other shooters and hunters. From time to time I will also have rifles on hand for sale, but these must go to an FFL Dealer for legal transfer. These are for your convenience should you decide to go that route. Elite Tactical Sales here in Myrtle Beach will handle the transfer from this end to your dealer should you decide to purchase one of the available rifles I have on hand.

Had you bothered to go to the website you would have seen this, you will also see that SSK Industries does all the building the B&Ms, has all the reamers, and is made proprietary to SSK Industries, by my doing. Which there are reasons for that also. I get no rebates, breaks, $$ nothing from the B&Ms and in fact has cost me many 100s of THOUSANDS to get this project where it is, that I will NEVER recoup in any way. So I don't want to hear crap about MOST MERCANTILE OFFERINGS, the website is part of my signature and is on every single post I make. On the B&M website, which is MINE I do with it as I damn well please, and I involve myself in many areas of research and study as I am a curious sort of chap, so I can post anything I please there, such as this very data we are working on right now 500 NITRO-- Pal, I don't own a double rifle, I don't want one, I don't own a 500 Nitro, I do this because I enjoy doing it, it's what I do for fun. I do it so I can help out other shooters that do have double rifles, friends and pals around the world, many right here on AR. So I can post that same data in pdf format on MY FUCKING WEBSITE for everyone to go retrieve and have a permanent copy of the data. I can update it DAILY or HOURLY should I choose to do so! So yes, it's at the bottom of every post I make for all to see.

I am B&M RIFLES AND CARTRIDGES-- But not for the reasons you state. So yes, you have met a devoted fan of, user of, and dead straight serious about doing research in several areas of interest, all related to larger bore rifles.

I own and operate a company called Southeast Woodland Services, Inc. I am a forester by profession. I have a job already. But I have to tell you this, the B&Ms have become a damned job and the problem is, no pay!

Michael

Sam,

I finally got home yesterday after 3 weeks of being on the road, including SCI in Vegas. I do have a box of 570gr .510 TSX bullets. I'll get them in the mail for you tomorrow. How many do you need?

Todd

Thanks Todd you don't need to send a whole box. 4 to 6 should be fine unless you want me to work up some loads for you.

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by McKay:
I think I might have just a few .510 GS custom bullets. I will have to dig. Believe they are 540 grains.....

Mac

HEH................

Found a box with 4....hopefully that will be enough. Let me know if not. I should have some loaded in a 500 jeff if I need to pull some and send to you. They are 540 grain GS custom solids with thier Moly they put on thier stuff. PM me your address again and I ill get my gal to send them to you in the morning.

Mac

Filled out the on-line form to order some 500NE GSC bullets -the 500s and 540s and am waiting to hear back.

Mac

PM sent! 4 of the GSCs should do fine. 2 for barrel strain and 2 for chamber should give us a good indication.

Todd

Do you still have my address????

Like Sam says, 4-6 will be plenty.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Mac

PM sent! 4 of the GSCs should do fine. 2 for barrel strain and 2 for chamber should give us a good indication.

Todd

Do you still have my address????

Like Sam says, 4-6 will be plenty.

Michael

Michael, I have Sam's address and have 4 boxed up ready to go tomorrow. Would you prefer me to send them to you?

Todd,

Send them to Michael as it might be a week or more before I can go to his place.

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Todd,

Send them to Michael as it might be a week or more before I can go to his place.

Sam

No problem. But I don't know if I have Michael's address. Can you please PM it to me.

Thanks,


Todd

Todd PM sent.

Got it. Thanks.

Michael,
busy as I am, I have read into your website and see you are indeed the enthusiast you claim. So now I turn the other cheek and apologise for having mistaken your altruism for the normal commercial vigour that has made your nation great.

So, what else can I say? Well, a few years ago I saw a TV program on an American gun show. The only thing I remember of that show was a man asked about the danger of an expo like that promoting violence, to which he said: The armed community is a polite community.

Now that may or may not be true, but I'm inclined to think it makes sense to try.

- Paul

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
Michael,
busy as I am, I have read into your website and see you are indeed the enthusiast you claim. So now I turn the other cheek and apologise for having mistaken your altruism for the normal commercial vigour that has made your nation great.

So, what else can I say? Well, a few years ago I saw a TV program on an American gun show. The only thing I remember of that show was a man asked about the danger of an expo like that promoting violence, to which he said: The armed community is a polite community.

Now that may or may not be true, but I'm inclined to think it makes sense to try.

- Paul

Paul

Thank you very much. It is much appreciated, and your apology accepted, no ifs, ands or buts! I do appreciate the fact you took the time to dive deeper and take a look, thank you!

What else can you say? How about "Michael you are great, wonderful, distinguished, brilliant, fabulous, awe-inspiring, blah blah blah" that would be a good start! LOL...... Just kidding of course. What you said goes beyond sufficient!

Cheers my Friend!
Thanks again.

Now, I have to go back to the range, I have something I could not deal with any longer and I had to find out how to "Blend" powder and see if I can blow something all to hell!

Gotta go, I have one more experiment to conduct to finish the first test!
Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
What else can you say? How about "Michael you are great, wonderful, distinguished, brilliant, fabulous, awe-inspiring,

Now, I have to go back to the range, I have something I could not deal with any longer and I had to find out how to "Blend" powder and see if I can blow something all to hell!
Michael

I just doubled the padding on the walls of your cell ... uh, I mean room ...

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Now, I have to go back to the range, I have something I could not deal with any longer and I had to find out how to "Blend" powder and see if I can blow something all to hell!
Michael

I just doubled the padding on the walls of your cell ... uh, I mean room ...

I have been off my medication for over a month, what do you expect?

I did not blow up!

Now it makes sense why Michael has so much foam on the walls of his range. I thought is was for sound proofing not him bouncing off them.

quote:

Now, I have to go back to the range, I have something I could not deal with any longer and I had to find out how to "Blend" powder and see if I can blow something all to hell!

Now this is definately going to be interesting. We know the manufacturers blend powder to reach a 'certain performance mark'... So can the individual perhaps eliminate the cannister to cannister variance of certain powders by blending the cannisters together?

Next question would be, "How to safely blend the powder?"

Well Michael and I were at it again today with the 500NE. Shot several factory loads and did quite a few new loads both for light nitro and full nitro. The more we test the more I hate fillers of anykind. We did get some good results out of card wads though. Some of the factory stuff wasn't even close to what it is supposed to be, just like the others we have tested. We shot some original Kynoch cordite loads and they had beautiful curves and fell right in where we thought they would.
Michael I'm sure will get the data posted in the next day or so. We did not do any barrel strains as we are waiting on a few more bullets to complete it. We want to try to do them all on one day. Now again if there is anything we have not covered or something you want us to try please let us know. When I go back to do the strain tests it will probably be the last testing of the 500NE. I'm getting busy and that gun has got to be tuned and ready for up an coming Austrailian buffalo hunt.

Sam

Yes, I will start recording data, printing out traces to show you, converting them to jpg so I can post them, and get the data updated and posted to the B&M site, well I will start tomorrow and get some things up and going. I place great importance on getting the data transferred from my chicken scratching notes to something legible first and foremost, which I will begin in the morning. I think there is some good things you will be interested in.

This study is going along well, but still not complete, but closing in. Sam and I will do one more test concerning fillers. We have chosen the different fillers to use, and the powder, and will choose the bullet for comparison next week, if we both can get the time for another day of it.

And one last barrel strain. I think Todd sent us some Barnes TSX, but they have not shown up yet! Thank you very much USPS. I have 5 boxes of .585 BBW#13s that I sent to White Hunter Black Heart, gess 10 days or more ago, far as I know, they have not made it to him yet either! Hmmmm????? Lost in, well, if they knew where they were lost, they would not be lost I suppose? Anyway we decided to delay barrel strain until we get our hands on the TSX. We have a great barrel strain coming, including GSC that Mac sent, several things that Lane sent including 570 North Forks and some others I can't recall now, then of course will be doing repeats of the Benchmark Woodleigh, FMJ Woodleigh BBW#13s and others, so it will be a good strain test to finalize the 500 Nitro Data.

My opinion on some things, in a conventional barrel, 24 inches, your choices of powder are some limited on getting a 570 to actual 2150 fps or close to 2150 fps and not stepping over the threshold of 45000 PSI. Which with the orginal Cordite loads shot today, they come in at 44000 PSI, so I deem 45000 PSI to be the mark, like the 470 Nitro as well. Safe Max Pressures. Some of the hotter factory loads all hover in that direction, Hornady and Kynoch, and the original Kynochs.

Fillers! Well they do bring things together for the lighter loads, those less than 25000 pSI. On Nitro full loads, I would choose a powder that fills the case, and not use fillers. But, some of this I need to review the data as well, I think I can make a case FOR fillers in lighter loads, and a case AGAINST fillers for full Nitro loads. I don't personally like fillers, it's another foreign object in the mix. I don't like component bullets either, too many components inside a bullet is not conducive to proper behavior! I also don't like gadgets in my scopes, introduction of other things to break! And so on, and so forth. Don't make me right but that's how I see it.

Rambling now, so I am off to roost!

Michael

Michael,

Those TSX's went into the mail last Tuesday so I would have expected them to show by now. Keep me informed. I can always overnight some via FEDEX if they are delayed beyond another day or so.

Just let me know!

Todd

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Michael,

Those TSX's went into the mail last Tuesday so I would have expected them to show by now. Keep me informed. I can always overnight some via FEDEX if they are delayed beyond another day or so.

Just let me know!

Todd

We will give it a few days. Same thing with those .585s I sent to WHBH--Phill, I don't know where they are? Should have been there days ago, have not come back here either????

I don't want to run a barrel strain without the TSX, so we will wait.

M

Did y'all shoot H414 behind CEB's???

I would really like to see it after seeing the WW 760.

Looking forward to the results with the GSCs. I was just about to PM Gerhard beause I had filled out the orm on his website to get a few boxes for the 500NE test but never heard back as to shipping. Now that I see youhave a few to try, I'll wait a bit more.

Lane we did use H414 in the first tests but it was surplus powder that I had from the 60s. It seemed faster than 760. Michael ordered some new H414 to try.

Sam

Lane

Yes, I ordered 30 lbs of powder the other day, and did get 1 lb of NEW H-414. When it gets in, we will get some new workups on it. The can Sam had was made in 1929 I think from the looks of it. LOL...............

Again, soon as the TSX arrive, then I will get another and probably final barrel strain test done, and GSC is on the list.

The NEW DATA from 2/21/2012 is up and posted on the B&M site, pdf format, so you can go down load it if you want.

http://www.b-mriflesandcartrid...--Barrel-Strain.html


Some interested new added things. Lane, we did a lot of what you had requested over the last week or two also. Comes to mind, light loads with the 450s with RL 15, AA 5744, some Kynoch Foam vs Foam Rod, and some other things I don't recall without looking at the data.

I am going to break the posts up some so everything is not on one. I am getting a little wore down today, so might save some for in the morning.

Michael

Sam and I got a good bit done yesterday, some worthy of note, some for the data sheets and not that important, or maybe it is, look at the data, I bet you will find something there that might assist you.

One of the things we are always interested in is the factory stuff of course and how it compares to our hand loading. While there are some decent factory fodder out there, I will always contend that there is a "Reason" we hand load, and it's not always because we are CHEAP--- Where is Dave? LOL, kidding Dave! Just Kidding!

I think the factories tell lies sometimes, well in fact, most of the time, they always have. Rarely do they do what they say they are going to do! That's been with shooters from the beginning! Some things don't change much.



Boys, I have to tell you this, there is not much on that label that I believe. Well, I suppose that it is a 500 Nitro 3" case loaded with a 570 gr bullet. Other than that, I don't think much else on that box is the truth! What do you think?????






Somewhere Sam got his hands on two ORIGINAL Kynoch Cordite Loads! The real deal. There is no telling what year this was made, it really did very very good in my opinion! Bullet is probably not worth a crap, but the load showed pretty spiffy!



Now let's see, I think that Original Kynoch Load is about the fastest Factory load we have tested. We did have one norma load go 2100, but honestly, I don't think that was correct, as we only got one velocity out of that, and all the rest were around 1950 fps or so? I suspect that one Norma velocity a great deal, so much so that I would disregard it. So the OLD Original Kynoch appears to run slightly more pressure than all the factory loads, and the highest velocity of all factory tested thus far.

Hmmmm? Now I know it is not the Cordite, and we have better more modern powders today than ever before! So what was it they had back then, that we don't have now? Or could it be they had less back then, than what we have now?? I think they had less Attorneys back in those days, so they could run higher pressures and faster loads!

LOL.......................

Enjoy! And don't forget, go down load the new data, it has 2212012 on the tail!

Michael

quote:

I ordered 30 lbs of powder the other day, and did get 1 lb of NEW H-414. When it gets in, we will get some new workups on it. The can Sam had was made in 1929 I think from the looks of it. LOL...............