Thanks Wingnut I'm learning too!

Michael...

To many misses here lately, little small things, like that 5grs difference... LOL... Decided maybe I needed to give the glasses a good cleaning - boy what a difference it made, almost like a new pair of glasses. No guarantee though that I still won't miss the little things...

quote:

Originally posted by pagosawingnut:
(SOME on here don't consider a Blaser a true double)

You said it Hoss!!!

All, some of you may righfully beleive I should have put this in a p.m to Sam.
I decided to put this on this thread for anyone looking at regulating the C.E.B 475gn
non-cons in the .500 N.E.
Rifle is a V.C roundbody.

Sam, help needed please.

Still waiting for my shipment of .510, 475gn non-cons, which got missplaced in transit.

Got a little tired of waiting so I took the loads you left me down to the range and let 20 go through the chrony and onto a target at 25yds.
My apologies that I did not take pics of the targets as I did not have my camera with me.
(chrony was set at 15yds from the muzzles)

The results have me a little puzzled.

Velocity;
Velocities measured all the way between 1955fps right the way through to 2175fps ??
In excess of 200fps variation in velocity ?
Are all those loads you left me the same load ???
What could explain this variation in velocity ?

Regulation;
I fired groups of rounds in each barrel seperately to acheive a group for each barrel.

The right barrel groups 6 rounds into cutting a ragged hole about 2&1/2" - 3" to the right of the point of aim and about 1/2 to 3/4" low of p.o.a.
Going by this result alone, is it fair for me to assume that I need more velocity to bring the barrel in to the p.o.a. ?
Velocities registered (from the right barrel) between 2015fps to 2175fps, much more varitation than I expected.

The left barrel shot totally different.
The group from the left barrel still printed to the right of the p.o.i but much closer to the center, about 1/2" to the right of p.o.i and about 2" to the left of the right barrel group.
Velocities registered much LOWER then from the left barrel, between 1955fps and 2050fps.

Now comes the stupid question of the year !
Is it even possible to have one barrel shooting faster than the other ??
Are the loads you gave me mixed up possibly ?
Why could it be that my left barrel is still shooting to the right side of the p.o.a, am I possibly canting the rifle incorrectly ?

Overall,
* both barrels are grouping well individually, and both are about 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch low at 25yds.
* the right barrel is grouping nearly 3" to the right of point of aim at 25yds
* the left barrel is grouping about 1/2" to the right of point of aim at 25yds
* there was a much larger variation in velocity than I expected, 200fps +

Thanks in advance,

Paul.

Don't know about the velocity variation as they were Sam's loads, but you need to drift the rear sight over to bring the POI closer to the center of the target.

My Merkel printed in a similar manner. Both barrels shot to the right. I moved the sight over to center the center of the two barrel's individual groups onto the bullseye. That solved that issue.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Don't know about the velocity variation as they were Sam's loads, but you need to drift the rear sight over to bring the POI closer to the center of the target.

My Merkel printed in a similar manner. Both barrels shot to the right. I moved the sight over to center the center of the two barrel's individual groups onto the bullseye. That solved that issue.

Thanks Todd.

Having a regulation target come with the rifle that showed one shot either side of center had me assuming that I would get the same result with me firing the gun but obviously there is a difference between the way I shoot and who-ever regulated it.

I think I still need to check how the factory stuff prints even though I won't be shooting much of it, just to compare how it prints for me.

I'm still at a loss to explain the variation in velocities recorded.

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Truccolo:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Don't know about the velocity variation as they were Sam's loads, but you need to drift the rear sight over to bring the POI closer to the center of the target.

My Merkel printed in a similar manner. Both barrels shot to the right. I moved the sight over to center the center of the two barrel's individual groups onto the bullseye. That solved that issue.

Thanks Todd.

Having a regulation target come with the rifle that showed one shot either side of center had me assuming that I would get the same result with me firing the gun but obviously there is a difference between the way I shoot and who-ever regulated it.

I think I still need to check how the factory stuff prints even though I won't be shooting much of it, just to compare how it prints for me.

I'm still at a loss to explain the variation in velocities recorded.

Paul,

These doubles are funny beast sometimes. With the Merkel that I described above where I needed to move the rear sight over, that gun has now been sold to Lionhunter here on AR. I was speaking with him in the airport on the way to SCI and he told me the rifle was printing several inches to the left for him. I reminded him that I had moved the sights since it was shooting to the right for me. So yea, something about the way I hold the rifle is different than the way it was regulated. Or at least that is what I assume as it seems to be dead on with the sights set as from the factory with Mike, but it was off to the right for me. It also shot low for me as well so I had to place the bead level with the top of the wide "V" rear sight, instead of pulling the bead all the way down into the "V".

So, I would think that you are doing something to cause it to shoot off center. As long as you are getting a good group, I think I would just adjust the sights as mentioned instead of trying to change your technique, unless you know you're doing something strange.

About the two barrels, I think it's not uncommon to have a bit of difference in the average velocities between the two tubes but 200fps sound a bit extreme. Sam will have to chime in but it does sound as if maybe some of the loads were mixed. My CEB loads are not showing that large of a spread. Two and a half inches apart doesn't seem too bad but I would think you can get a bit better than that at 25 yards. Have you shot it at 50 to see what kind of spread you have there? If it's not wider at 50, I would think you are pretty much good to go.

Fun messing around with doubles isn't it?!! I love em!

quote:

So, I would think that you are doing something to cause it to shoot off center. As long as you are getting a good group, I think I would just adjust the sights as mentioned instead of trying to change your technique, unless you know you're doing something strange.

I think that your right about this, but I tried shooting the gun as naturally as I could so I also think your right about adjusting the sights rather than adjusting the technique that I'm using, even though my technique may not be "proper".

quote:

My CEB loads are not showing that large of a spread. Two and a half inches apart doesn't seem too bad but I would think you can get a bit better than that at 25 yards. Have you shot it at 50 to see what kind of spread you have there? If it's not wider at 50, I would think you are pretty much good to go.

I actually started off shooting at 50yds in actual fact with only one shot which blew the target frame apart (quite spectacular) as it hit a good 6 to 8 inches to the right of p.o.a.
As I shoot at a regulated rifle range that meant waiting until the next cease fire etc etc which is when I decided to reduce what I thought was human error and bring the target back to 25yds.

What is acceptable/desirable spread of barrels at 25 and 50yds ?

I understand that each barrel should also be capable of grouping reasonably good groups and the gun has displayed this quite clearly but now I need to get thse bullets centered around the point of aim at 50yds and "regulated" to an acceptable spread between barrels.

Thanks in advance,

Paul.

Paul,

I'm not sure I can give you the "technical" answer at what you should see at 50 yards in terms of spread. Ideally, the center of each barrel's groups should be the distance between the centers of the barrels, but that is just theory and seldom practical!

But, as alluded to earlier, I think if you can get 2 inches or so spread at 50 yards between the center of each barrel's groups, you would have an excellent working rifle.

Below are targets of my doubles at 50 yards, all of which are right on right, left on left with no crossing. I'm very happy with these groups from a double rifle and they have served me well to date.

577NE


500NE


9.3X74R


Again, all at 50 yards and all with the CEB BBW# 13 and Non-Con bullets.

Paul,

This was my 500NE prior to drifting the rear sight to compensate for the rifle shooting right, or rather my technique causing the rifle to shoot to the right.

Todd, your groups are MUCH closer together at 50 than what my gun displayed today.

At 50 yds there is a good sized hand width of spread between the group of each individual barrel.

If I'm reading this correctly I think I need more velocity to bring the "groups" of each barrel closer together.
That can't be a bad thing I suppose so long as pressure doesn't become an issue.


Thanks again for your help,

Paul.

Paul,
Sorry, have only just chimed in but have you checked velocity's? I found that my VC shoots tighter with factory Hornadys that it was regulated for but they are travelling just faster that 2000fps which is about 100fps faster than my hand loads. Perhaps you might need to back them off?

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Truccolo:

What is acceptable/desirable spread of barrels at 25 and 50yds ?

I understand that each barrel should also be capable of grouping reasonably good groups and the gun has displayed this quite clearly but now I need to get thse bullets centered around the point of aim at 50yds and "regulated" to an acceptable spread between barrels.

Thanks in advance,

Paul.

Paul,
This is on average what can be archived at 40m off hand with the vc as far as I'm concerned;
6 at 60m off hand prior to sight adjustment;

6 shots off hand at 40m today with v sight filed;

Note bullet position in relation to sun shadow and work on averages.

Paul,

If they are spread, but NOT crossing, then you need to increase velocity not slow them down. And yes, pressure can become an issue. However, with a double gun, you aren't likely to see pressure signs with the possible exception of being hard to open the action.

On my 9.3, I had a hell of a time getting to that regulation that you see with the scope mounted on the rifle. Just about everything I fed it regulated fine without the scope, but this is what I went through with it.

First, TSX. They crossed off the target at 50 yards. I could not slow them down enough to get them to uncross. Then I went to the CEB with IMR 4064. They crossed just a very small amount. Then went to IMR 4831 and they were spread about 10 inches. I increased powder until reaching the max per the manual. However, when I reached the max, I was still 6 inches apart. I found another manual that had a max load of 4 grains heavier. I tried that and got the spread to close to 4 inches. Still not good enough. I tried several other loads with similar results.

However, the one thing I noticed is that I was seeing the bullets cross with powders that did not fill the case and a spread with powders that were compressed. With the knowledge that some were crossing and others not, I realized that my issue was centered around load density. Evidently, that was affecting the harmonics of the barrels or something. Eventually, I struck upon going back to the IMR 4064 with just a pinch of pillow stuffing for filler and that uncrossed the barrels and gave me what you see in the target above. I went through a total of 14 load combinations before getting it sorted.

But to answer your question, yes, faster should bring the barrels together and slower should spread the barrels apart, all other constraints being the same.

Adam's groups pictured above are very good Paul and if your gun is shooting to that level, I'd say you are in very good shape with regulation, just move the POI over with the sights.

Thanks for posting Adam.

The general left/right layout of your groups is very similar to Todds in that they are MUCH closer together then mine are showing.

With both yours and Todds if you didn't know which were fired first and last you can't actually detect left from right but with mine there is a definitive clear open target space of over 2+ inches between the left barrel group and the right barrel group.

It needs to be remembered that this is with the 475gn non-con (100gns lighter than the regulating load) for which extensive load testing has still not been undertaken, at least not to my knowledge.

Sam has already indicated that the load charged inot the rounds i am currently firing does not represent a maximum load and therefore I am going to assume (????) that these 475gn non-cons being lighter and being "bore-riders" as well are going to take a little more steam to get them to regulate close to where the heavier slugs have been printed for.

If that IS the case then I'll have very little trouble living with the extra velocity so long as the gun can handle it all.

Cheers,

Paul.

Yes, you would be best to try some of that factory ammo as per regulation to get a feel of things.
I have seen such variant in velocity as you are indicating when there is insufficient quantity of powder for case capacity. Is there a lot of spare room the the case?
In relation to your question about varied velocity between barrels.A I once owned a double that produced about 35fps difference in velocity between barrels.

Paul,

First things first. The loads left with you were a mix of 475,510,535 and 570 grain. You need to be sure what you are shooting. I really didn't think any of the 475s were left but maybe. The 475 non con would have a groove half way from the nose to the first band. The 510 grain solid would also have this groove. The 535 gr non con would just be a hollow point and the 570 gr a plain solid. All of these loads regulated in my wonderful Sabatti just fine. As to the difference in velocity your gun could very easily have a loose and a tight barrel thus giving you different velocities. How far are you from your chrono when you are shooting? Don't get too close as this will give you crazy readings. Now if you know what load you are shooting and make sure you have same load in each barrel try again. If you still have a big swing in velocity then you know its the barrels. Doubles are finicky things sometimes and you have to caress them alittle to find that perfect spot. I'm going to read over all your posts again and try and understand exactly what is going on and get back to you.

Sam

Paul,

I have read your post again and from the sound of it your gun is not crossing which is good. I still think you need to be sure you are shooting the same load in each barrel to know what is going on. As Todd said you need to drift your rear sight to bring groups to the center. Now as far as regulation goes it is a result of many things. Number one is the bullet weight and velocity that it was regulated for. Most of the factory ammo tested in my 500s with a 570 gr bullet had a velocity of around 1975 fps out of 24 inch barrels. This is probably right for most guns. Regulation is a matter of recoil and barrel time. Even if velocity is right if the recoil is different then you can have wide or crossing shots. This is the reason sometimes faster powders regulate better than slower and vise versa. Faster powders tend to have less recoil. In my Sabatti the best regulating load for Michael was WW760 at 2170 fps I think. It shot about 1.5 inch total group for him. For me it shot 3 inches apart. I switched to RL-15 and about 2100 fps to get the 1.5 inch group. Michael holds a gun like a gorilla and I hold one relaxed. This is another factor in regulation. The way you hold the gun and the way your body moves can effect how the gun shoots. This is why I think when you are doing final regulation you should be shooting just like you would be hunting. Now one thing that kinda doesn't jive is I have found very little difference in the grouping I get from a bench or from standing. I don't rest the gun on the bags when shooting from a bench I have my hand under the forend on the front bag so gun can move. One other trick you cna do is after you have sights adjusted shoot at two different targets the same size. Use as small an aiming point as possible. Shoot the right barrel at one target then move to the other target and shoot the left barrel. After shooting maybe 6 rds from each barrel take the two targets and overlap them. This will show you what the indivigual barrels are doing plus show you how far apart the two barrels are in regulation. If you are shooting at same target you may be trying to adjust the second shot without thinking about it. Hope this helps and I'll keep thinking.

Sam

Sam, thanks so much for chiming in here, you've releived some of my concern.

I had completely forgotten that there was a mixture of loads and had fired them thinking that they were all the same (Doh !!, dumbass).

I did not fire any of the solids only the non-cons but still that would explain the difference in velocity.

The strange thing is though that despite the velocity variation the individual groups of each barrel were quite impressive, even considering it was only 25yds.

When loads of equal, or near to, velocity were being fired bullet imprints were touching each other cutting a ragged hole.
At 25yds each barrel groups into 1", or thereabouts, at 25yds.

Both barrels shot to the right of point of aim; the right printed about 3" to the right of p.o.a
and the left barrel printed about 1/2 to the right of p.o.a.
I do not beleive they are crossing and going on feedback and pictures from Todd and Adam above I beleive my barrels are still far further apart then either of the groups on the targets shown by Todd and Adam.

Do I presume correct that I need to speed things up to get them closer together ???
The fastest load measured 2175 f.p.s and groups of this load fired seperately from left and right barrel were still 2" (or more) apart.

Can you confirm that the top load you used in these loads was 100gns of R15 ?

Note there was absolutely no difficulty in opening the gun nor fired cases ejecting with any of the loads fired.

I shot the gun off my hind legs with the forearm cushioned in the palm of my leading hand whilst resting atop of a tripod.

Cheers,

Paul.

Paul,

Can you take some pictures of what your groups currently look like?

Todd, I'm barely capable of opening a can of sardines let alone posting pics on a web site such as this.

It took me nearly a week to figuer out how to post a reply !

Sorry, I wish I could.

The groups I ended up with were great individually, for each barrel, but as noted previously they were spaced apart further than your groups posted in your pics, and Adams as well.

Both barrels hit to the right of p.o.a which we all agree is a simply tap of the rear sight across to the left but the composite group of both barrels is what I beleive to be too far apart (2 to 3" apart at 25yds).
Obviously I need to do more shooting and at 50 rather than 25 but when I started shooting at 50 the first shot was so far across to the right it blew that target stand apart (quite spectacular).

I think I might just pull these loads of Sams as i wait for my non-cons to be delivered and just reload them with a known load then take a bigger target stand with me and go punch some more holes.

Paul, Can you not get 570grn weight in those bullets? I am using Northfork mono's in the same weight as Woodleigh standard 500grn 470 bullets and have no point of impact problem.

Adam, if I'd never seen the effects of these non-cons on buffalo, and had not seen how the lighter, faster non-cons performed on buffalo I would have probably done just what you are suggesting, but I have seen it and know that they are well worth the effort involved in getting them set right for my gun.

Keep in mind that yesterdays session has been the very first with this double so it hasn't exactly been a drawn out affair, I allways expected a little work with a new gun.

Paul,

It sounds to me like you need to figure out what ammo of mine you have left and start anew. The 570 solids and the 535 non cons ( bullets without grooves on the nose were loaded with 97 grains of RL-15 and the lighter bullets with the groove were loaded with 100 grains of RL-15. Go back in this thread and look at some of the groups Michael posted when he was tweeking the loads. You'll see how things come together with increasing velocity. Indivigual groups should be in a ragged hole form each barrel and the two barrel groups should end up over the top of each other. It is good that your gun isn't crossing. A gun that wants to cross is a pain and much harder to find a correct load for. Are you set up and ready to load yet? If you are and have some kind of bullets you can slowly go up in charge to see how your gun reacts. Drift those sights over and start shooting. Don't get upset yet it takes time to figure these things out.

Sam

Sam, I was not stressed with the results just really confused as to why I was recording such velocity variation.

Now that you clarify that there was two loads each for the non-cons and solids it explains everything away.

For some reason I had it in my little peanut head that these were the 475gn loads and that they were all the same load.

The fact that the gun shoots a little to the right is insignificant and nothing a light tap to the rear sight won't fix.

I'm quite surprised though that the best groups acheived, and the closest that the two barrels shot, was when I was recording velocities in excess of 2150fps.
Even at this velocity, and even with the 535gns the groups of each barrel were still 2+" apart !
If that is any indication of how this gun shoots it is going to take a fair bit more velocity with a slug that weighs 60gns less (475gn).

I'm going to pull the rest of the loads and just use them for finishers at close range or maybe knock over an Ox here and there with them.

Unfortunately my order containing my 475gn, .510 cal non-cons went missing somewhere between the U.S and Aus and Daryl is busy trying to locate them now so I have to cool my heels a little and wait till they come in before I start loading.
I'll probably start at 100gns R15 with the 475gns and load up a grain at a time through to 104 or 105gns and see what happens.

Thanks for clearing my confusion.

Paul.

Let us know how it goes Paul. I know you'll get it sorted in no time.

I'm in total agreement with you about the CEBs. After you see how they work in person, Woodleigh just takes a backseat. So does most everything else however. They are just damn good performers.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Let us know how it goes Paul. I know you'll get it sorted in no time.

I'm in total agreement with you about the CEBs. After you see how they work in person, Woodleigh just takes a backseat. So does most everything else however. They are just damn good performers.

Will do Todd, just need to wait for my shipment to come in.

Re the non-cons;
I also have a 500 MDM Ultra mag out of the Mike458 B&M stables and used it quite thoroughly during the entire season last year.
In that gun I had the 460gn non-con loaded to about 2400fps and the effects on buffalo was devastating.

One bull taken in full tilt at about 50yds, after being hit poorely by an undersized caliber, died so instantaneously in mid stride that upon coming to ground two large pathces of skin, one under the chin and one large patch on the brisket, were removed by the abrasion of the earth under him. Literally dead in mid air !
This level of effect was not uncommon during my experience last year with these bullets.

Also, I hosted Mike his two boys Matthew and Marc and Sam as well all of whome were loaded with C.E.B's for the majority of the hunt and the success the acheived on a number of animals, at times with little pisol sized cartridges, was phenominal.

Yeh, I'll be sticking with the C.E.B's thanks.

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Truccolo:

One bull taken in full tilt at about 50yds, after being hit poorely by an undersized caliber ,

Damn I love that statement. What is the old saying? Oh yea ... A well placed 500NE is better than a poorly placed 375 H&H.

quote:

Damn I love that statement. What is the old saying? Oh yea ... A well placed 500NE is better than a poorly placed 375 H&H.

No Todd.......... Incorrect.

The TRUE saying, by myself of course, follows as;

"One Well Placed 500 is Better Than an Even 1/2 Dozen Placed 375s.... Anywhere, Well, Poor, or in between placed!"


If one decides to use an "Undersized" caliber, such as 375 on buffalo in particular, please use a "Magazine" fed Rifle, nothing short of a 20 round magazine, this will increase your chances of Survival greatly.


Michael

Paul,

If you gun is shooting apart it will be much easier to get a lighter weight bullet to shoot, recoil is why the barrels are going wide if your velocity is up. Hope your bullets show up soon so you can get that thing shooting like you want it to.

Sam

quote:

"One Well Placed 500 is Better Than an Even 1/2 Dozen Placed 375s.... Anywhere, Well, Poor, or in between placed!"


If one decides to use an "Undersized" caliber, such as 375 on buffalo in particular, please use a "Magazine" fed Rifle, nothing short of a 20 round magazine, this will increase your chances of Survival greatly.


Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

"One Well Placed 500 is Better Than an Even 1/2 Dozen Placed 375s.... Anywhere, Well, Poor, or in between placed!"


If one decides to use an "Undersized" caliber, such as 375 on buffalo in particular, please use a "Magazine" fed Rifle, nothing short of a 20 round magazine, this will increase your chances of Survival greatly.


Michael

Nice picture of CEB loaded 500's Michael. Here is another:

Hey Todd

Like that open bottom, Yeah, I know..... I like closed and "tight" bottoms................. HEH....

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Hey Todd

Like that open bottom, Yeah, I know..... I like closed and "tight" bottoms................. HEH....

Hey Michael,

Take a close look at my pic. Even the crooked line on the loops. Yep, started out closed bottom. But then that's not unusual for me ... taking a closed and "tight" bottom and opening it up!! Heh!!

Besides, you can't see those beautiful bullets when you hide them like that!!

quote:

Besides, you can't see those beautiful bullets when you hide them like that!!

No argument on that point!!!!!!!!!!!


Maybe I could put mine in with the Bullet UP...... HEH........

See, you have a Rim to catch yours before they go out the bottom, mine won't do that, has to be closed. Eventually they loosen up enough to go out......

Michael

Todd,

I know your preference for open loops. While I disagree, please take a good look at the spacing between the cartridge rims in your slide and those in the B&M slide.

When I designed the B&M slide, I relied on all my combat, SpecOps and DG hunting experience. I wanted users to be able to firmly grasp individual rounds with the thumb and index finger to insure positive extraction under stressful conditions, such as when taking a charge. Hence the open space between each round. This can be so critical that I have seen many experienced users of conventionally spaced slides, such as the one you use, to only load every other loop, thus giving them the space between rounds. Closed loops also provide protection for the bullet and help prevent accidental loss.

I don't expect to change your mind, but thought it useful to explain why the B&M slides are designed the way they are. If you need to push the round up from the bottom to remove a cartridge, I suggest the loops are too tight and the process too time consuming to be effective in critical incidents. JMO, and, as always, practice makes perfect!

BTW, Michael's pic of the 500NE rounds above, are rounds loaded for my upcoming Ele hunt; Ele and Buff die with a smile when killed by pretty CEB bullets fired from pretty B&M rifles! Also, the 500NE fits into the B&M slide perfectly! I'm sure you could convince Michael to part with one of the 10 round slides in either Ele or Buff hide.

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
Todd,

I know your preference for open loops. While I disagree, please take a good look at the spacing between the cartridge rims in your slide and those in the B&M slide. Closed loops protect the projectile and prevent accidental loss as well.

When I designed the B&M slide, I relied on all my combat, SpecOps and DG hunting experience. I wanted users to be able to firmly grasp individual rounds with the thumb and index finger to insure positive extraction under stressful conditions, such as when taking a charge. Hence the open space between each round. This can be so critical that I have seen many experienced users of conventionally spaced slides, such as the one you use, to only load every other loop, thus giving them the space between rounds.

I don't expect to change your mind, but thought it useful to explain why the B&M slides are designed the way they are. If you need to push the round up from the bottom to remove a cartridge, I suggest the loops are too tight and the process too time consuming to be effective in critical incidents. JMO, and, as always, practice makes perfect!

BTW, Michael's pic of the 500NE rounds above, are rounds loaded for my upcoming Ele hunt; Ele and Buff die with a smile when killed by pretty CEB bullets fired from pretty B&M rifles!

Actually Mike,

The problem I've had with the closed loop method is that they are too LOOSE and they fall out the top! As you say, they eventually loosen up with a bit of wear. Even a straight walled case typically has SOME amount of taper which I find works to my benefit as the loops loosen. I just push the cartridge further in until it is held tightly. If you look at the picture of my belt, realize that it started life as a closed loop system. I cut the bottoms out. Notice that the cartridges are now pushed in further than the previously closed loops would have allowed. That's because they had opened to the point of all falling out the top! And the position they are in at this point, is where tension just holds them securely due to that slight amount of taper in the case wall.

I do like the spacing on yours however.

Hey Todd,

I was adding an edit when you posted - please go back and re-read, especially the last line.

HINT: If loops are too tight, put some liquid Silicone on a Q-Tip and rub on the inside of the loop. If too loose, wet with water and dry with a hairdryer to shrink them. I know cowhide will stretch, not sure about Elephant, which is thicker.

Todd

On some closed bottoms I had made some years ago, they did loosen up as you say, and I could not keep them in when I was running after buffalo..... Yes, I sometimes do things like that...

I did like Mike said, wet them and let the hairdryer give them a good "blow"...

Mike, yep, elephant will stretch as well... but doing what you say will sort that out too.
And I have told you so much I know you are tired of it, but you did one HELL of a good job
on the design of the slides..... Best I have ever worked with or seen. Spoiled now, would not have anything else.

Todd, and other 500 Nitro Fans..... If I were to ever even consider a double of any kind, it would be NOTHING but a 500 Nitro, nothing else is really even close, nothing else can compare with all the 500 can offer....... Maybe I should do a 500 B&M Nitro, shrink it from .510 to .500 just for the hell of it!

Naah, double trouble................

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Todd

On some closed bottoms I had made some years ago, they did loosen up as you say, and I could not keep them in when I was running after buffalo..... Yes, I sometimes do things like that...

I did like Mike said, wet them and let the hairdryer give them a good "blow"...

Mike, yep, elephant will stretch as well... but doing what you say will sort that out too.
And I have told you so much I know you are tired of it, but you did one HELL of a good job
on the design of the slides..... Best I have ever worked with or seen. Spoiled now, would not have anything else.

Todd, and other 500 Nitro Fans..... If I were to ever even consider a double of any kind, it would be NOTHING but a 500 Nitro, nothing else is really even close, nothing else can compare with all the 500 can offer....... Maybe I should do a 500 B&M Nitro, shrink it from .510 to .500 just for the hell of it!

Naah, double trouble................

Michael,

Just for clarification, where do you plug your hair dryer in when they lossen up while you are on a buffs trail? I have never seen any current bushes in Africa.

465H&H