Todd

TSX Has Arrived! Have them in hand, will be making a plan for the Final Barrel Strain Test in 500 Nitro coming soon.

Michael

Great. I was looking for this post!

Thanks Todd, Mac, Lane, Paul, and all others that have sent either loaded factory rounds and or bullets for barrel strains. I will be busy preparing the loads for barrel strains today, along with many other preparations for other tests as well. We are getting ready to do some stick shooting up on terminals, much prep needs to be made to start that mission as well. So lot's of work ahead. Also, H414 will be running soon as we get that lb of powder. Will be working on some regulation for Sam the next few days with 535 BBW#13 NonCons preparing for our Australian trip. Still playing with blended powders, and other wild things! So going to be a busy few weeks ahead!

OK, I told you yesterday I can make a case for FILLERS, in light loads! First, I don't like foreign objects in the mix, whether it's fillers, or complex construction and materials added to bullets! Damn, a copper jacket and lead core is already two components, and some add more than that to the mix! With reason most of the time, to fix a faulty project to begin with I reckon. Anyway, the more you throw in the mix, the more variables you have to deal with, most of the time!

But it seems with LIGHT REDUCED LOADS in these big Nitro cases, a filler is the way to Play!

Let's first look at a test done 1/31/2012 with a 440 Woodleigh 95/IMR 4350 and NO FILLER. As you can see, fairly large spread in Pressure, only one bullet made it across the chronograph proper, so only one velocity reading there. Traces do not look so happy, ups and downs. I do not like this load nor it's traces.



The other day we did the same load WITH A FOAM ROD FILLER. As you must note, Primary Peak went up by over 10000 PSI-- A huge increase, and so did velocity from 1670 to 1960, big increase. If your goal was to stay under 25000 for BP then you went way over that amount. But if you are a Nitro gun and just wanted a decent reduced load, then this appears to be a damn good start! Velocity and Pressures very consistent, and all brought together because of the Foam Rod Filler. NO DOUBT ABOUT IT.





Lane wanted something on some 450 Woodleighs he sent and AA 5744. We picked a load and used Foam Rod in one load and Kynoch Foam as filler for the other. Both turned out to be very good loads, decent velocity and both consistent. In this case the Kynoch edged out the Rod by a tiny margin in consistent pressure, but that could have changed in another test as well, both ended up very good and no issues with either load.






I DON"T LIKE CAST BULLETS! I know many of you do, and I know many of you shoot them in your doubles. I would not do so after seeing the highest barrel strains of any and all bullets tested, but some of you are going to anyway. So regardless, if you are, we test. Since it's not my double rifle, do as you please, no skin off my ass!

What we saw some of the other day is that IMR 4831 is a pretty good powder for some loads in 500 Nitro, Reduced loads is one of those areas we looked at. So we did a test with a 350 Cast Performance and 107/IMR 4831.

No Filler was VERY UGLY, both in consistent velocity with a HUGE ES of 127 fps between the two rounds! Ugly Trace, bumps at the end where large lumps of powder caught up with the bullet to cause secondary peaks in this case. Just an ugly affair.



Sam added 4 Veggie Wads, made by Walter someone I think??? Whatever! Sound like some of my EX American Wives now--WHATEVER! Ever heard that? HEH......... Anyway, these wads made a BIG DIFFERENCE with the same bullet, same load, same gun same everything. Can't much argue with this.




So while we don't care for fillers much on the full Nitro Loads, they sure do a jam up job on reduced loads, and I would say a very needed addition to the mix!

I cleaned up another 1/2 pound of unburned powder yesterday on the range from this. It burns too, I stuck some fire to it! HEH.............. Wonder if I could use that as a Blend??? Hmmmmmmm?

Off to prepare things for the next run of tests.

Since we turned the page, NEW UPDATED DATA has been uploaded to the B&M site for all of you, both reduced load data and full Nitro Load data.

Go here direct to get it.

http://www.b-mriflesandcartrid...--Barrel-Strain.html


Enjoy your day!
Michael

Sam & Michael,

Please do a reduced load for me with 450 Woodleighs and R-15.

The load is 86 gr of R-15 with a Kynoch wad under a 450 gr Woodleigh. Supposed to be a good reduced load that regulates in many .500 doubles.

Lane

We did that one, it's on the data, it was just one I did not post or report here. I did not like the vast ES on velocity and the traces are a little ugly. I think there are better reduced loads.

Yep...It looks like the AA 5744 was much better.

One more thing...did y'all do 450 Woodleigh with 5744 and NO filler?

Lane

Yes, I think for light loads there might be better choices than RL 15. I think I would reserve RL 15 for the Nitro loads.

No, we did not try AA 5477 without filler. I don't think it would do well, case was only half full or so at that.

M

The first tests we did with 48 grs of 5744 was without any filler.

Well, I do have a little treat for you today, sorta unexpected, not planned for sure.

Sam asked me last night to do a little favor, and that was to up the charge of WW 760 with the BBW#13s, both 570 Solid and 535 NonCon, shoot them at 25 yards, both barrels, see if they regulate. OK, I agreed, but really did not plan to do it today. Just so happens I got in the mood and was working on loading the Barrel Strain tests for the 500 Nitro, said what the hell, might as well go do this for Sam! Well, he owes me big now! Stay tuned and you will see why!

Looking at our past data with WW 760 I decided to up the charge to 115/WW 760 with both 570 BBW#13 Solid and 535 BBW#13 NonCon. I wanted Pressure data if I was going to do anything at all, I wanted that and the velocities and see left and right barrels. I can't see anything much past 25 yds so that is where I shot from, and that is where the Pressure Trace is anyway.

Pressures were great again, and velocity is top dog on all the data thus far. I got two excellent traces with the 570 BBW#13 Solid, but only 1 with the 535 BBW#13 NonCon, I had a disconnect so that killed one trace. However, the one trace fell exactly where it should have, slightly less than the 570, so I believe it is valid. Of course over time, we will test this again.

Here are the trace report and velocities.





How did these loads and BBW#13s Shoot at 25 Yards???

Well, here is the 570 BBW#13 Solid and 115/WW 760 at 25 yds.




Here is the 535 BBW#13 NonCon 115/WW 760 at 25 Yards as well. This is why Sam owes me big, about a pint of blood I figure when all done! All this is from shooting the left barrel, and the right trigger knocking the bark off my trigger finger just in front of my knuckle! Trying to write this data down I had to keep wiping it to keep it off the computer, figured I might as well sign the target! Damned Double things! JHC!




Michael

Did you staple your thumb putting that target up?

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Did you staple your thumb putting that target up?

quote:

All this is from shooting the left barrel, and the right trigger knocking the bark off my trigger finger just in front of my knuckle! Trying to write this data down I had to keep wiping it to keep it off the computer, figured I might as well sign the target, IN BLOOD!

Michael - what about the primers. Were the Berdan primers not hotter?

One more idea for your tests - pull out the spageti cordite and load into a modern case with current primers & compare!

This analytical stuff is really contageous!

Quote Michael458 [Hmmmm? Now I know it is not the Cordite, and we have better more modern powders today than ever before! So what was it they had back then, that we don't have now? Or could it be they had less back then, than what we have now?? I think they had less Attorneys back in those days, so they could run higher pressures and faster loads! rotflmo

LOL.......................]

Trailboss is another interesting powder for reduced loads in the 500 nitro, Gives you full case capacity with no need for a filler.

May be somthing Interesting.

Matt

Seasons44,

Have you loaded and shot a case full of Trailboss in a 500 nitro? I have plenty of Trailboss and yes it might be interesting. Thats a lot of fast burning powder.

Sam

Nakihunter,

I had a hard enough time finding the two cordite loads we shot. $30 a piece too!
I don't think you can buy cordite now so why bother.

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Did you staple your thumb putting that target up?

quote:

All this is from shooting the left barrel, and the right trigger knocking the bark off my trigger finger just in front of my knuckle! Trying to write this data down I had to keep wiping it to keep it off the computer, figured I might as well sign the target, IN BLOOD!

What a crybaby.

Come over here and I'll let my cousin Vito take care of that bleeding thumb for you.

Well, I am about to PM Gerard about getting some GSC bullets for the 500NE. I filled out the online request form for 500s and 570s a few weeks ago but havent heard back. Might be a problem with the security we have to run things through here.

If I can get them, weights would you want? 500? 540? 570?

Thanks,

Paul

Paul

Mac sent some 570 GSC Solids. That will be enough for barrel strains. They measure .512?

M

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Paul

Mac sent some 570 GSC Solids. That will be enough for barrel strains. They measure .512?

M

Are they supposed to be .512?

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Did you staple your thumb putting that target up?

quote:

All this is from shooting the left barrel, and the right trigger knocking the bark off my trigger finger just in front of my knuckle! Trying to write this data down I had to keep wiping it to keep it off the computer, figured I might as well sign the target, IN BLOOD!

Guess I should read and quit just looking at the pictures...huh!!!

I think y'all should find a way to measure the so called "felt recoil". It would be interesting to see if there was more "felt recoil" from 115 gr of WW 760 than 97 gr of R-15. Or for a more similar comparison 113 gr of WW 760 vs. 97 gr of R-15 so the velocity was similar.

Also...load some 115 WW 760's put them under a heat-lamp for 4-5 days then shoot them warm.

Sam
I haven't shot the 500 NE with Trail Boss, though from the loading recomendation you measure the powder to the base of the bullet and take 70% of that amount as your starting load.

They have used it in the 458 win and also the 45-120 sharps, pressures all have been below 20,000 cup

May be a viably option, just a thought

Matt

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
I think y'all should find a way to measure the so called "felt recoil". It would be interesting to see if there was more "felt recoil" from 115 gr of WW 760 than 97 gr of R-15. Or for a more similar comparison 113 gr of WW 760 vs. 97 gr of R-15 so the velocity was similar.

Also...load some 115 WW 760's put them under a heat-lamp for 4-5 days then shoot them warm.

I say we put them in the Microwave and see what happens???

Anyone with me?

Michael..I'm glad to see you had fun with the A-Square loads I sent to Sam. I got that wallet of ammo with the gun when I bought it from a couple in Kentucky. I never shot any of it, just my hand loads. They bought the Merkel and two wallets of A-Square ammo. They shot 9 rounds out of the first wallet and kept the 10th round as a trophy I guess. They sold me the gun pretty cheap and included a gun case (Orvis), dies and some brass. They said they never wanted to see another 500NE. That rifle weighed 10.25lbs. and recoil was rather brisk.

Ed,

Thanks again for the ammo as it was good to add it to the test. Real nice of you to donate it.
That test rifle weighs about 9.5 lbs so recoil is a little on the heavy side. Michael needs an articulated front trigger for sure. So far this cheap rifle has held up well after almost 300 rounds fired through it.

Sam

You are quite welcome Sam. I will be interested in the results with the TSX's. I am testing some this weekend in my Searcy in 470NE.

Anyone taking bets on those nasty TSX's turning the rifling inside out due to OSR on that cheap Sabatti?

Before anyone gets their panties in a wad, please realize this post is an attempt at humor! Just spelling that out as some folks on this forum take things waaayyyy to seriously!

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
I think y'all should find a way to measure the so called "felt recoil". It would be interesting to see if there was more "felt recoil" from 115 gr of WW 760 than 97 gr of R-15. Or for a more similar comparison 113 gr of WW 760 vs. 97 gr of R-15 so the velocity was similar.

Also...load some 115 WW 760's put them under a heat-lamp for 4-5 days then shoot them warm.

I say we put them in the Microwave and see what happens???

Anyone with me?

I know what will happen there...you'll fry the microwave...cartridges will do fine...if you decide you must...don't use the wife's...she won't cook you any supper after you fry the microwave!

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Paul

Mac sent some 570 GSC Solids. That will be enough for barrel strains. They measure .512?

M

Are they supposed to be .512?

No! ???????

quote:

I think y'all should find a way to measure the so called "felt recoil". It would be interesting to see if there was more "felt recoil" from 115 gr of WW 760 than 97 gr of R-15. Or for a more similar comparison 113 gr of WW 760 vs. 97 gr of R-15 so the velocity was similar.

I suppose we could measure how much skin gets taken off my trigger finger with each of those loads when I shoot the left barrel?? Of course, at some point I will run out of skin?
LOL.................



Ed

Yes, thanks for sending those, and yes, we did have some fun, they fell way short of advert, but all of them do in the end I think! Sam pulled two of those bullets as well for Barrel Strain tests.


I have all the barrel strain test bullets loaded, I think there is about 12-13 different bullets included, some more of the same, some new ones, TSX, GSC, 440 Woodleigh, Hornady DGX, one interesting note, prowling around in Sams box he left here I found some 535 Barnes Banded, checked, we had not tested those. Little yellow label across the box says for 500 Jeff. The 570 Barnes comes in at .508, I measured the 535 it comes in dead on .510! Hmmmmmm? Also have 570 North Forks added, and 570 Swifts. With these I think we will have tested almost all the bullets that can or might be used in 500 Nitro for barrel strain, and pretty much all of the important ones.

Yes Todd, won't be a bit of rifling left in Sams right barrel when we get through, if the TSX don't burn it out, the Hornady and FMJs will! HEH.........

Lane, I decided the microwave might not be a good idea!

Sam, what do you want to do about barrel strain tests??? Want me to hold them until you come? Wait on the H414 and do all? Or want me to do it? How is your time running for next week now????
Only thing I have that might come up is the burn on the farm, all depending on weather?

M

Michael,

You can shootaway with the barrel strains if you want. I know you hate opening that top break gun but if you are getting an itchy finger go ahead. I can't come down next week, Saturday is free but not sure you work on Saturday or not. Be glad to help then.

Sam

Sam

OK, well I will get it worked in sometime first of the week, at least it's the right barrel so I won't have to wrap my finger up in duct tape! LOL................

M

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Mac sent some 570 GSC Solids. That will be enough for barrel strains. They measure .512?

M

Are they supposed to be .512?

No! ???????

M

I thought the bore diameter for the 500 Nitro Express was .510 and have not found evidence otherwise but it could be different.

Gerard's website has the groove diameter listed as 13mm/.512" so his bullets appear to be made to that specification.

Interestingly, you might remember that you had problems with the GSC bullets I provided when you tested my 600 Overkill. Your issue was that they seemed undersized and fell into the case. On the GS CUstom website, Gerard has the goove diameter for the 600NE listed as 15.57mm/.613". All of the references I've checked have the 600NE as .620".

I'll have to PM him and ask why the differences. Always an opportunity for me to learn something new.

When are we going to start a new exploration of the 470 NE?

Dave,

What do you want in the 470? We already ready did a lot of test work with the 470 and have the perfect load of 106 grs of IMR 4831 with just about any bullet. We still have a good pressure gage on the 470 and Michael has it at his range. If you want something ask him and maybe he can find the time to do it.

Sam

Michael & Sam,

One other powder if you guys happened to have any might be AA 2700.

I managed to get the work done with H-414. I found it similar to WW 760, a tad slower it seems. Pressure traces were not very consistent, velocity was consistent and all tested very close, but again, only 2 rounds per trace done. There was a wide extreme spread in the traces. I managed to cram 116 grs of H-414 with the 570 BBW#13 Solid for 37000 PSI and 2079 fps. The data is available this morning on the B&M site in a new updated Load Data sheet.

Here

http://www.b-mriflesandcartrid...--Barrel-Strain.html


Each step up from 104 grs gave expected increases in pressures and velocity. In some cases the second trace was so low I did not accept as valid, and used the highest trace for pressure. None of the cases showed any signs of pressure, and the gun worked perfectly, easy ejection, no issues at all. I might could have stuffed 118 grs in the case, but I am not going to tell you a lie, I was sick of messing with it at that point. HEH............

I did complete the barrel strains before doing the Load Data workup on H-414. The new gage worked flawlessly right from the beginning. See below, and also this has been updated on the B&M site as well, you are welcome to it.





Michael

Excellent work Michael and Sam.

It's good to see fact instead of fantasy and am glad that you post data instead of dreams.

I see you found some 570 grain GS Custom FN bullets. I thought those you were sent were 540 grainers. I'm still interested in the rationale for their diameter - which is no error in your measurement as it is what is posted on the website.

Good stuff and once again thank you for doing the heavy lifting for the rest of us.

Michael gets all the credit on this one. All I did was supply the gun and a few bullets he did all the work.

So...it looks like I'll be buying a little WW 760 to compare to my 97gr of R-15 loads.