Rob-Here is long view of exploding 6 gal
pail.If I can find source of sabots Federal
uses on 3/4 oz load, I will get some to you
and like have you see how fast shortened
bmg spitzer bullets will go.Ed

Ed,
If you have any dummy rounds left hold one for me and I will get the m.o. in the mail

quote:

Originally posted by hubel458:
sharps54- I got 10 left.$10 shipping included.

Ok, I will take one, m.o. in the mail in the morning.

Ed or Rob - have you thought of trying forward ignition in those cases?

So what is the cheapest way to get into this for a non-gunsmith type? Buy a Savage, have Pac-Nor barrel it, and Ed chamber it? Does it need to be a newer Savage 210? Sorry to ask the questions but this is a neat project, it just depends on what the costs are going to be to get in the door....

Boomstick- Hey about that bullet idea, I came up with a really neat design that might work, but I'm gonna be down and out for a little while, I tore my ACL. The design I'm using currently, before the injury, it a brass cased design with a stainless core, I figure we won't have to worry about anything shattering unless people are taking their smiths against tanks! But I went ahead and belted one out at 2700 fps from a little rig I made and it went through a 1/2 inch steel plate at 50 yards, didn't find the bullet afterwards.
Ed- I've been trying every day to contact Hawk and their not replying, so I might have to forget about that one. Sorry about that.

Ed, I've got a gunsmith who will do the work, I'll contact you offline about the barrel but I may take it off your hands, do you prefer pm or email?

I have never had any problems with ignition in these 12 Ga FH cases with .50BMG primers. Thats one HUGE advantage over the .700NE case for example.The trick of machining a Rim onto a .50BMG case has the twin advantages of reliable ignition and cheap high pressure brass.
The cheapest way into one of these is Ed's Savage 210 approach. Another possibility is the .700NE falling block action by Waffenfabrik Hein. Unfortunately, if a gunsmith does this work for you, I expect it will cost 3-4 K before your done. Now for a truly custom gun thats not bad at all thesedays.-Rob

-Rob

quote:

Unfortunately, if a gunsmith does this work for you, I expect it will cost 3-4 K before your done. Now for a truly custom gun thats not bad at all thesedays.-Rob

That's the advantage of helping my gunsmith (a good buddy) do his 8-10 U-haul truck move a few years ago and helping him build a new 2 story workshop now, for me he'll work for beer and tooling costs!

I guess the next question is do I build a heavy Savage for the full house round which is almost like a modern swivel gun or do I build a lighter one that could be taken in the woods hunting?
Ed, email sent about the barrel.

I know you get what you pay for, but I have a stupid question anyway. What is the suitablility of the cheaper 50 BMG actions for the 12 GA FH? I mean the single shot ones for AR15s. I'm not sure how the barrel is attached to them but should they be able to stand up to the full strength loads? If not what are the recommended single shot (falling or bolt) actions that can take the full house loads.

I looked carefully at .50BMG bolt actions and frankly they are really all not designed to work with a Rimmed cartridge. The mods to make them work are pretty complicated and remember your still wittling on a 2K action. if you just want a 12 Ga FH rimless, you can blow out a std .50BMG to 12GaFH dimensions and it will work perfectly well. We wanted a rimmed case specifically to be legal in all 50 states and not have to deal with DD regulations. The ability to fire a std 12 Ga shotgun cartridge resolved all the legality issues. If you are lucky enough to live in a state without the over .60 caliber regulations, the the 12Ga FH rimless is a viable option.-Rob

the 12gfh is pure ingenuity and genious!!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by hubel458:
Here is picture of the heavy Spanish double
from the site Karl sent me URL for.On site it says they are alloy barrels.Maybe could be
used with just lengthening chamber or shortening case as Rob has been experimenting with. We are checking on specs for barrel size
and maybe possibility.Ed

is there a verdict on if this gun will work???

quote:

Originally posted by sharps54:
I know you get what you pay for, but I have a stupid question anyway. What is the suitablility of the cheaper 50 BMG actions for the 12 GA FH? I mean the single shot ones for AR15s.

For one of those actions, you might want to look at Ed Hubels's 700HE round, .020 smaller bore (.710 vs .730) using a belted 50BMG case

Rob,
Thanks for the info on the 50 actions. I ordered my Savage today to build a "field version" but I guess I will have to bite the bullet and buy a big falling block for the "bench" version.

Other then being ugly if you were going to build an action for this is there any reason not to use a cannon breech style action (like the Competitor handgun)? I know there may not be any readily available I am just thinking out loud. I would like to build a heavy bench rifle (maybe with Ed's other barrel) and a lighter field one on the Savage, heck maybe the Savage can just use shorter rounds that fit in the magazine so it won't be a single shot in the woods.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=50543369

Hey Ed take a look at this, I thought this was quite awesome actually!

Ha ha! Hey lemme try to build some of these for the 12GaFH! Good lord that would be a hoot in a big bore!

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=50908143

Ed, I know that you can take recoil that us mere mortals cannot but I have to speak up a bit here based on a BAD experience I had with a borrowed .378 Weatherby rifle and thumbhole stock. I think the stock was a "Lawson" or "Larsen" brand.

It may have been because the thumbhole wasn't cut to fit my particular meathook, but when I fired that .378 Weatherby it felt like it damn near ripped my thumb clean off my right hand!

My shoulder can take quite a bit of recoil (although not the canons you shoot), but my right thumb sure can't!

You be careful Ed...

quote:

Originally posted by hubel458:
Most guys can take more recoil than they think
if done right. Good pad, thumbhole, technique.
As Rob mentioned in another thread, pull back on
forend hard, and down and back with trigger hand hard,into the shoulder.
This forces strong grip, whether regular or thumbhole, and keeps gun down into shoulder.
Tailgunner a little guy shot it 6 times
in a row and did it easy.Ed

5'8 185 and Ed calls me little. Well, from his 6'6 perspective maybe I am (Ed is built like John Wayne, tall and wide).
I don't "pull back" on the forend, instead I pull back (hard) with my trigger hand, and slightly FORWARD on the forend (about a 70/30 pull/push ratio) this locks my off arm and spreads the recoil across my upper torso (pulling back on the forearm will allow your off arm to colapse and concintrate the recoil into one shoulder). It may not be the best, or proper, way to handle stout recoil, but it works for me.

Ed
Please keep us posted on the NEF load work up.
My NEF is meant to be here this week.

What about the Lee slug(mould) that is meant to be loaded in a normal 12ga wad?

Ed- Did you ream the NEF for the 12 Ga FH short? I have some 1000 gr Paradox slugs.-Rob

I picked up a Savage and it is with my gunsmith now along with the dummy round I got from Ed. I hope to buy Ed's other barrel after the 1st of the month and we are planning a cannon breech off it, leaving it full size. This won't be a quick project but I have enough money committed that it will happen. Thanks for threads like this, otherwise I might end up wasting my money!!

Ed
I have Bertram brass and I bought some dies from Buffalo Arms in the USA(CH4D made). When I get my rifle and fire some cases I will let you know. The Bertram brass seemed to go into the die with no sizing - the brass is new unfired.

Ed
cases at the mouth seem to vary between 11 to 14 thou.

2.520" long
inside at the side about 2.300" next to flash hole 2.350" these 2 measurements are not exact.

diameter outside at base .803" and about .790" at mouth.

They use large rifle primer.

When I bought them from Bertram a couple of months ago I asked if they made a longer version or would make them longer and the answer was no and no.

Gentlemen, I am new to your forum but very interested in learning about the powders to burn in the big bores. I would like achieve speed with 20ga sabot slugs 200-265 gr weights
near 2800-3000fps in a gun I have. Any suggestions or direction you can point me would be appreciated, Thanks.

20ga 3.5"chamber on a NEF 20ga Ultra Heavy Rifled Slug Barrel 24". 3.5" turned brass cases from Rocky Mountain Cartridge 209 shotgun primer for ignition.

have youu found a muzzle brake yet? If not, I would suggest one of these:http://www.eabco.com/cssmb.html the first one on the page is the howitzer/tank brake..... it supposedly has almost 100% recoil reduction, which I bet it would with all that powder you are burning in that beast

Hey Ed, took a look online today and I'm thinking about selling my Encore barrel for one of those Pro-Hunter barrels. Bull barrel, 416R stainless steel 28" long. Hard to say what the diameter's gonna be but you think it's a good deal for working with a Encore?

Hubel458, do you have email address??
My NEF 20ga barrel is 1.113 at breech, .957 at muzzle, brass is .034 at mouth not sure how to measure thickness at base cannot/do not have jaws long enough on my caliber. Like all big shooters I wish my barrel was longer but my funds are limited to whats on the market, the next question is recoil reduction ? Not wanting just to port barrel and lose any barrel lenght any suggestions gentleman ? I am slight of frame last time I shot 12ga 3.5" slugs walked off with 3 fresh cracks in collar bone, my surgeon was not impressed he had just spent 3 hours repairing my right shoulder from an accident a month before this little escpade.
Anyone familair with Penelton Style Brake?
What about cryogenics process for accurracy?
Thanks Gents!!

12 ga rifle? Home defence no doubt. You guys are amazing. I wish I had that ingenuity.

Ed
Thought I read somewhere that large rifle primers are stronger than shotgun primers. Maybe ask Fedral.

Ed you have a PM

ED- Did you make the Primer adapters because the NEF wont reliably ignite the BMG primer?-Rob

I thought (and still do) that if you made the bases screw into the primer pocket, you could go larger rifle and have a straight flat case base

jeffe

Gentlemen, does anyone have a resource for 20ga sabot's? I have a limited number from breaking down factory slugs but need to find sabot without collet/shoulder to utilize .452 caliber 200gr bullet that I would like to test. Any info would be helpful, Thanks Jeffrey

Alright, just wanted to let you all know that I'm transferring in 12 days to Camp Pendleton, so you won't here from me for a little while.
Ed- The big-bore bug bit me again and I went and ordered a surplus 20mm barrel. I don't know how it's gonna work, but some way or another, that barrel's gonna be turned down and stuck on my Savage 210 and something horrendous is going to be made! God I love being a machinist!

Screwing a base into the primer hole doesn't work well even with a steel insert. During sizing you just pull the treads out. The best solution is to make a 5/8 screww on .50 BMG base section and use it for reloading, then screw the rimmed section on for 12 Ga FH fun.-Rob

quote:

Originally posted by IWillhunt:
Gentlemen, does anyone have a resource for 20ga sabot's? I have a limited number from breaking down factory slugs but need to find sabot without collet/shoulder to utilize .452 caliber 200gr bullet that I would like to test. Any info would be helpful, Thanks Jeffrey

Ballistic Products used to carry some that would allow you to shoot .452 bullets in your 20. I have not checked them out lately as i have been shooting .58 minniball in regular 20 ga shotcups.