Would be easy to make that revolver rifle into a hand gun.

Taurus had the handgun version at this years SHOT show.
I dont know if the ATF is going to let them build it or not.
If they do, I'll buy one and have a little work done on it.

Cheers, John

Would be interesting to neck up the 577/450 Martini Henry cases and shoot black powder loads out of that six shooter.

I recently came across 1.25x28" 4140 blanks with .580/.590" 1-66" rifling. Might make for a proper 24ga. It would be limited to bullets under 590 grains or so by the slow twist, but the price was only $130.

Some have a need for supply of full bore 12ga hard alloy
slugs about 620-650gr. So a couple guys are opening up
their Lee Key Slug molds to full bore .729" It will still
have the partly hollow base and key. I will do the
short brass cases with the first ones I get, to get loads
developed. The slugs are about same length as
the 730 gr Dixies.They have blunt round nose and
can be roll crimped in plastic cases ok. Load of 90gr
of IMR4759 in the short brass or 3" plastic cases
will get 1800 plus in 24" barrels.
I'll Have pictures later to post.

Also here is picture of my 585HE in a Khan
shotgun action. Operates as a straight bolt,
straight pull action for now. Barrel is heavy,
30" long, the butt is weighted. thick pads,
it fits nice, looks great. Ed

10ga FH ideas..Ok I think the most stylish guns in the world
are nicely built over/unders. And there is a heavy duty
10ga over under made by Armi San Marco, imported by
Cape Outfitters. That is one brand I've lately
seen some sold on GB. Others just as strong are Armsport
shown in the picture below, also
American Arms, and Richland Arms.
And probably a few more.

I'll be trying to get one I can afford, I could
ream one chamber for 4.05 brass case
for slugs, and leave other for 3.5" magnum shot and slug
loads in plastic cases. But if we left both 3.5" you'd
still have a hairy gun. You can buy 3.5" new plastic cases,
with hot Fed 239 primers for 22 cents each.
Make a real great combo gun.For slugs with
the right weight slugs.Don't go real heavy.

For slugs use the hollow base hard cast lead
900gr in brass case, at 1900 fps,that the
guy in AZ makes.In plastic about 1750.
Those are not a full bore loads,needing real thick
barrel, but that heavy O/U has barrels ok for that,
keeping pressures at mag shotshell levels.14,000 psi.

These modern O/U actions can take pressures like the
heavy duty NEF SB2 10-12ga frame, if barrels were thick
enough.20,000 in 10ga. IE the actions are real strong.
Ruger has made O/U rifles on their O/U frames,
and others have made big bore rifles
using modern over/unders. I like idea of O/U
double ten slug gun knowing the speed we have
gotten with our slow powder slug loads....Ed

Rob how are you doing with finishing the double.
I know finding time for that type of work on joining
barrels, making ribs, soldering ribs, etc,
and regulating is hard to do....

A BIRDY TOLD ME THAT WILL HAS READ OUR THREADS,
and was greatly impressed. I wonder if his shop
could finish a project like that, and broadcast it.
I have couple deals I'd like them to tackle, with their
complete modern shop, and the exposure would great.

For us and for them. I'd put all over the 70 forums...Ed

Ed- I've talked to Will about some Haas CNC stuff and yes he is quite impressed with the 12GaFH. I'd like to talk him into a Barrett fifty conversion or worse into a 12GaFH M2 full auto. Imagine that spitting 15 OOB per round?
I'm just as sick as Will is!
I've talked to Butch Searcy and I think I'm going to have him solder-up the whole thing. I'm not crazy about taking a torch to the thing. I have all the parts made and its been test fired. Just needs the complete soldering/regulating process completed. I can Blue and then finish it off.-Rob

Both of us as sick as Will is.... maybe more.
That is great idea an auto 12ga FH.

On the double you can't go wrong
with Searcy doing it.A lot of this
stuff sure takes time..Ed

Rob
The patent in the Gatling gun is expired.
A hand crank 12 GFH could be a fun project. Scale up the one designed for the 577/450 or 45-70 could be good. 10,000 FPE per click and use 12 gauge slug ammo for practice.

The very idea of a Full auto 12 GaFH on a M2 just gives me goosebumps. Just gotta find one that I can afford. -Rob

would butch be doing the barrels on your 12FH double that you monoblock on your 10ga. double? how much machine work did you do?

I did all the machine work ( including the barrels)and the gun just needs to be soldered together and regulated. Everything is complete and I proof tested it. I just have no experience with this level of soldering while holding everything( barrels, Ribs etc.) together with specialized clamps I'd have to make and I dont want to turn the gun into crap at this point. I've talked to Butch and he's willing to finish it for me. I think thats the best solution.-Rob

The first full bore Lee Key slugs were 490 gr,
that we had made. Good for 2300 in 3.5" plastic
and 27-2800 in 3.5" RMC brass cases in the
long barrel NEF.

For the 8ga Hubel Falling Block pictured
above; For now using 3.3" swaged kiln cases. We swage
them to fit the 8ga chamber in falling block.
The barrel is real thick so we can run 50-60,000 psi
if we want in that action. The heavy duty 8ga plastic will
take about 23000 psi. A MRC turned brass would do
35,000 psi. But the plastic does so great,for now I'm
staying with 70 cent 3.3" plastic, primed with 239 primers,
good for 4 shots or more.

And I have the REM wadcup, on left in picture, with
its own seal, that they use for the kiln slug, which works
for various other slugs and shot loads.

In the 8ga HFB - 3.3" plastic cases-
1020gr 2000 -- 900gr to 2200 ---- 770gr to 2400---
and triple ought buckshot load---
9 - 70 gr 000 buckshot, in wadcup. 630 gr total-- 2600.Ed

The Lightning 12 is the lattest slug we make for 12ga shotguns. It is made of aluminum alloy and the weight is 198grains. Initial testings show a muzzle velocity of 2700f/s at very low pressure. We hope to reach 3000f/s in 3" hulls, maybe more in 3.5".
Some recovered Lightning 12 slugs.


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Lefteris
www.europeancartridgeunlimited.com

I've clocked some of my 270 gr Aluminum Darwins at over 4000 fps from the 12 GaFH case. They actually shoot very well and show a BRIGHT FLASH when they hid a solid object. Kinda Cool!-Rob

Ok those are like your other ones, the Swift 12, without the
brass insert that you used to make them heavier.
And with our slower powder loads and lots of powder in
a 3.5 inch plastic case they wi do way over 3000.
You have done great job on those plastic bases
and seals to make them so strong.Ed

Rob, Ed,
We made the Lightning 12 to see how fast a lightweight 12 gauge slug could be driven from a shotgun barrel using plastic hulls at standard, under 1050 bar, pressures.
Our ultimate goal is to reach 1000m/s (3280f/s) muzzle velocity. The one on the wright in the above photo hit a rock and it actually deformed rather than brake, so I can see they have potential for small game hunting. At first I feared that they will not properly stabilize but seeing the test targets, almost one hole groups at 30m and perfectly round holes on paper targets seems that the 4 to 1, front to rear weight distribution is more than enough at least at higher than normal initial velocity.
We include a thin card disc with all slugs, that is put between powder and slug and helps to isolate the plastic stabilizing wad from hot burning gases even when fast burning shotgun powders are used.

Lefteris
www.europeancartridgeunlimited.com

Lefteris-- Do you use a thin card between the powder
and plastic base seal, on all your other
loads with the heavier slugs and green
plastic base? Like the 570-700gr ones? Ed

Would be cool to see this but in Tin and say 300 grains. A banded design for reduced bearing surface. Just add two grooves.

Ed,
Yes. We use the Gualandi cardboard disc with all slugs that use the green wad. It helps for easy powder compression, eliminates powder migration and produces more cosistent velocities. It also reinforce the base of the wad (green) protecting it from fast burning powders. In the States, this card is available from Ballistic Products:
http://www.ballisticproducts.c..._bag/productinfo/OS/

boom stick,
We do not have the ability to swaging, only machining. The Swift 12 has a weight of 320 grains. Maximum velocity we obtained is 2550f/s in 3.5" hulls with powders available here. Some recovered Swift 12 slugs:
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-.../823/p1010009zh.jpg/

Lefteris
www.europeancartridgeunlimited.com

You can turn some grooves on the lathe. A couple groves could be good to engage rifling and reduce pressures. tin version of what you have could be effective and cheap to produce.

boom stick,
No need for pressure relief grooves. All our slugs are used in a sabot, no direct contact with the barrel. Additionaly they could be used in smoothbore, rifled choke tubes and fully rifled barrels.

Lefteris
www.europeancartridgeunlimited.com

Aluminum is cheaper than tin and brass and machinea nice.
Lefteris please keep those pictures hosted of
those light sabot slugs and of the penetration
tests as I'll get them around the net. Are you having
any sucess getting them imported to the US.Ed

Man I want to see Lefteris's slugs for sale at Midway USA so bad.

Still have my fingers crossed,
John

Lefteris- Somewhere in the bowels of this thread is some pictures of my Aluminum Darwins. I'm not at all surprised at your getting over 3000fps with normal 12 ga operating pressures.
I'm not limited in that way as one of my guns was constructed for 65Kpsi. Yes Aluminum is actuall fine in rifles at that speed and doesn't fould the bore appreciably. We too got one hole groups at 100 yrds. I love the Bright Flashes when they hit the sand bank behind the targets. You can easily see it particularly at dusk.-Rob

Ed,
We areworking with a company that wants to import our slugs in US. I could tell more in a few days.

John,
Thank you for your kind words.
Could you, please, contact me at:
info@europeancartridgeunlimited.com

Rob,
I'm sure you have great time with your 12gaFH guns sending bullets at over 4000f/s downrange.
By the way, some time ago we designed a slug for duty use (military/police) that we call US-S 515P. It is a hardened steel slug (60 Rockwell C) and when loaded at 1600f/s in 3" hulls and 2000f/s in 3.5" hulls outpenetrate every Ball (FMJ) bullet in 7.62x39, 7.62x51, 338 Lapua and 50 BMG, we tried, on hard targets (steel armor plates and bullet resistant glass).
It was only surpassed by the 50 BMG with AP bullets.
If I send some US-S 515P slugs, could you, pleae, load them at higher speeds (2500, 3000 and 3500f/s) and try them at some steel plates (15mm, 20mm, 25mm and 30mm)? Thank you in advance.

Lefteris
www.europeancartridgeunlimited.com

Lefteris- Those US-S 515P Sound pretty nasty. I experimented with some aluminum carrier bullets with .5 inch solid carbide cores a few years ago. They were about 900 gr as I remember. They would defeat even 1" armour plate.
I'd love to test some of your bullets, but I'm concerned about the import situation. I have had bullet and even brass shipments seized by customs before and the situation probably is even worse now. Decided a few years ago not to do any more AP bullet work as a result, otherwise I'd send you some of my creations too.-Rob

Rob,
I can understand those importation problems. Thank you, anyway.

Lefteris
www.europeancartridgeunlimited.com

In the early days; in my Greener's book he states that rifled,
choke bored 12ga paradox shotguns with slugs, heavier powder
charges than shot loads, could hold what amounted to
about 5 inch pattern at 100 yds.

And still had 1800 ft lbs energy at 100yds.
And that is with guns with lighter, weaker barrels
than we have today, so our work in a good extension
of what the early big bore guys did.

And then the 4bore for guys liking a big challenge, 3rd picture...Ed

This is the SOFLID-S slug (SOFt-soLID-Smoothbore).
It works as a soft (expanding) slug and after petals have fully expanded they separate from the slug's body, leaving the rest of it to continue penetration as a solid one.


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Lefteris
www.europeancartridgeunlimited.com

Thanks to rattler on 24hr forum for the old time pictures,
above, and the guys really like them. Quite interesting.

Many have success with all kinds of high-power slug designs and
with extra power, have pushed the reliable range of 12ga slugs/bullets
from 75 yds to over a 150 yds. ...Here is picture from a 1926
Manton catalog showing, 1st picture, many brass case old time slug loads.
Notice the 20bore and 12 bore ones with pointed slugs, seems
as ideas to hotrod 20s and 12s are old hat, not as strong as 12ga FH ....
Both Pictures below from lancaster and CptCurl on Nitroexpress.

2nd picture are saboted slugs, called the SAGA, from Spain,
next to a Brenekke on the right..AS far as I can find only
sold so far as loaded rounds. They look great to reload with
if ever available..

3rd picture is from my Greener book, of double 8ga elephant guns.Ed

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Left to Right: .600 African, 12ga-3.5", .500 American, 20ga-3".
Both the cartridge rounds are necked-down from their shotshell counterpats brass cases. Estimated velocities are 1700f/s for the .600 and 2100f/s for the .500. They are designed to be used in standard guns with only a barrel change (although there aren't any 20ga repeating shotguns with 3.5" long hulls).
The rims will be thicker so as to not chambered in standard shotgun barrels but they will work in 12ga & 20ga guns with no bolt or extractor alterations.
Overall cartridge length is limited at 80.00mm.

Lefteris
www.europeancartridgeunlimited.com

Who makes the original brass you use..
I know some who want or are doing siniliar
with 2.5" long Magtech cases.
One making copy of 70-150 Win.
If they aren't Magtech are they
built heavier than Magtech..Ed

Here is picture of an early falling block for big bores
called the Field I think. Looks like some other
side levers, looks like lever works forward.

And speaking of falling blocks next picture is the
start or 'fixins' so to speak for the next step
up, for my 2bore. Same design as the 4 and 8
bores only wider.

I am now getting 2.25" OD barrel reamed
out to the two bore size.
And a square hole for breach block done
in that hunk of 4130 steel.

Other experimenting, a while back, when I made
my 585 Short HE from Gibbs cases, I also made a
620 Short HE from Nyati case, of the same design,
IE, head spacing on the mouth and extractor.
Using 600NE .620" diameter bullet and 2.7" long case.
Case could be shorter or longer like the 585 one.
Didn't do much with it as its sides were very straight
only .010" taper of both sides together. Whereas the
585 Short HE had .027" total taper both sides. And any
Nyati brass I got, went to make my 585HE cases..Ed

Ed,
The brass cases are made in Russia and are of the berdan-type. They are not solid base and although I do not have any Magtech to compare I think that they are created equal.
There are also some steel 12 gauge cases made in Russia with the same design characteristics as the brass cases.

Lefteris
www.europeancartridgeunlimited.com

Does anyone know what the chamber pressure of the 600 African is???
900 grain flat nosed solid at 1700 will have more than enough penetration to flatten out anything on this planet.
Love to see it in a pump action.
Like my SuperNova

Cheers, John

Well guys have made 70-150s from Magtech
brass and used them in the replica 1887 WINs.
The 12ga Magtechs I've seen look to be able to
handle 23-25,000 max psi, with their slightly
balloon head design.Necked to 600(.620" bore),
That might get a 900gr
to 1700. For sure with the 750gr like
Rob makes for 600s.Ed

Lefteris;

You got me all lathered up to build another shooter...AGAIN.

Is that formed case going to be available in the US or the dimensions released to some cartridge maker like RMC?

How about reamers and dies or chamber reamer specs??

Thanks

Luck

You should be able to get the ones made by Rocky Mountain Cartridge to do the job.
They come in custom lengths.

You know you want one, I want one in a pump

Cheers, John