My vote is for making a scaled up Saiga 12 designed from the beginning to be capable of taking a FL 12gaFH! This might just be my next project! The perfect CQB gun with QuadraCones!-Rob

That sounds fun and handy when the shit hits the fan when all the financial ponsy scheme fails with riots in the strees and you have to grow your own food.

The age of the big bore shotgun with 200 yrd kill capability has finally arrived!-Rob

Penetration with slugs-Had a bunch of
wood blocks up to 12" through.

20ga load is a 54 cal 410 gr slug glued in wadcup.
Gives the same effect as Brenekke with locked on base..
Good in smoothbore at 50 yds.Goes through
6" block of wood easy/

Buckshot load in 4bore, 9 140gr 45cal balls at 1800,
all zip through 3/4" OSB and keep going.
In 4bore 760gr steel ball zips through 12" block of wood.
going over 3200 fps. Wood is dried hard poplar.

In 10ga 3.5" plastic case, a 900gr hardcast slug at 1800
fps, through same kind of block easy. This slug I put
on a screwed on base with plastic seal and wad.
I've also put plastic seal and fiber wad on 8ga slug.

12ga 600gr hard slug at 2100 zips through 12"
wood block like it was putty.In a 3.5" RMC
case in NEF.

Anyone wanting one of my loaded 585HSMs to
collect or look at, let me know. 750gr
slug in this at 2800 in Enfield test gun.
Soon have barrel in PH and put the real
speed to it.

Will soon have the heavy 20 ga barrel mono-blocked
into the 12ga barrel setup on the CBC break action.
Make a nice looking gun. Also going to put the 8ga heavy
barrel I had in Enfield for testing into falling block
built like the 4 bore one.Maybe done by summer.
Will be in one piece stock like 4bore.Ed

Finding real slow powders that works with shotgun primers,
without starter powder. We found RE-17 and surplus 7383.
To recap faster rifle powders we use -VV110,IMR 4759,4227..

On the thread we've written about real slow powders like
H-BMG we've used with a starter powder, IE 15gr of Blue dot,
and H-BMG in amounts from 150 gr to 230gr in 3.5 and 3.85
inch brass cases. And 3.5 " plastic cases. 860-1040 gr slugs.
Tested in NEF with long heavy barrel.

We finally got some RE-50,a really slow powder like H-BMG.
It works with a real magnum shotgun primer with heavy slugs,
860 gr on up, in 3.5" RMC brass, 3.5" plastic and our long
brass case. I used 239 Fed primers. Lighter slugs
only give squib loads.RE-50 Is a powder made like RE-17
with the deterrant all through the grain of the powder,
rather than all on the surface of the grains, so it will ignite
easier, to get the initial combustion started.

In brass case used 240gr with 860gr slug, 1950 fps
and 220gr with 1040gr slug, 1750.
In 3.5" plastic 860gr slug with 180gr RE-50, 1500 plus.
Now these velocities aren't earth shattering as powder is real
slow, but cases don't expand, not even plastic case base cup.
And no starter powder. Nice thing is just fill cases
leaving room for slug and seal and no worries about
to high of peak pressures with heavy slugs
or cases expanding to stick.

Now to get 239 primers get Fed 12ga long red
3.5" primed cases from BPI. I used Fed cases,and took out
primers and used in other plastic and the brass cases.
Some guys trying to free up 239 primers for us reloaders.
Federal puts them in 3.5" mag 12ga loads and 10ga cases.

Elsewhere it was reported someone may do a 16ga sabot.
Also a guy got huge antlered buck with hotrod 20ga. Ed

Ed- I usually started out with H-50 BMG, then moved to Re-25 and then to Re-22. I was usually disappointed with H-50 BMG in the .700 up class guns. Since I've always been a proponent of the 50 BMG primer, I never had ignition issues. -Rob

Yes BMG primers are the best, as you can
use any powder. But I found most guys don't want
them preferring to get cases with shotgun
primers, and in other parts of the world
like AUS,they tell me aren't allowed any bmg components.
So I test every idea to maybe help everybody,
and for heavy slugs if they can't get RE50, use the good
standby of 15gr Blue Dot starter and HBMG or
other slow powders.Ed

Ed- yes I've made assorted to use the 209 primers for some guys who wanted them but I've never been impressed. Its not hard to get reliable firing even with 50 bmg primers in most guns and I've found that's best. Have you ever had a hang-fire with a 209 case?-Rob

Yes I have hangfires and squibs. That is the only way
I found what rifle powders and bullet weights work
with various 209 primers. Keeps life interesting.
Like thr recent tests with RE-50. Light slug and sabots,
the powder ignites, but just goes phittt like it
was through a silencer, not a big boom.
No recoil even when it does that. But with
the 860gr and heavier it has a big boom and
hairy recoil. And I don't let any others here do this
kind of testing.

And when guys here see a load of HBMG,Retumbo,etc, using
shotgun primer, hangfire, and then see a load of HBMG
with 15gr Blue dot under it go off like a tank gun
with shotgun primer, they are flabbergasted. They can't
hardly believe the difference.Fascinating hobby.Ed

Ed- Did you ever have a double concussion with any of your loads? A DC being a initial ignition pushing powder into the barrel followed by it's ignition later? -Rob

No and I think is harder to do with big bore straight cases, as when they misfire the primer burns hole up though the middle of the charge,
the slug moves a little into the barrel, and powder smolders,
But due to straight long case with bullet moved ahead there
is a lot of room, so it is harder to build prsssure to get a
second ignition.

The closest I get to hangfire,so far, is I hear the hammer hit
a milli-second before the boom.If I hear click, and no boom I
wait 20 seconds, the open the NEF to see the results.

I've ejected case/smoldering powder with bullet
lodged up in barrel a couple inches. On some, the powder was stuck
to inside of the case, with a hole though it.
Now some sometime it might do a secondary ignition,
but I go careful. I hope not.

And I found a way to compare primers without powder,
for a lot of my experimenting in a short 24"barrel 10ga.
The barrel being shorter I can see the sparks and flame.
For example I had reports that the new so-called magnum
inline muzzleloading primers were as strong as FED 239,
so I just got two brands to test in the 10ga to compare flame,
sparks and bang, and they were not as good as the 209
Remington STS ones I like. They only put a few sparks out
of the barrel.The REM 209STS and Fed 209M had 3" fire out the barrel,
the Fed 239. had about 6" out the barrel and 8ga
Rem and Win kiln case primers 8" plus....
That way I don't try new primers without knowing their
relative power. And in the instance above didn't have to
try weaker primers on slow powder, chancing a hangfire,
I found their power ahead of time.Ed

Whenever I hear click and no boom, I wait 2 minutes, open the action Very Carefully in a direction where if it blows, it won't kill me, and hope like he'll it doesn't go off. I saw a misfire go off when a guy opened his action and the case went off with the bolt still in his hand. broke his thumb and first finger, almost tearing his thumb off. I use a hammer now on bolt actions. Recently, I had a 9mm fail to go off in a match, cleared it and Thea it into a nearby berm. The case went off almost a minute later! Shocked me big time.-Rob

Robgunbuilder-

I sent you pm. dont know if you got it, they were some complaints about pm's not getting through. Thanks!

No I neverbgot the pm! Wonder whats happened.-Rob

Rob-

ok, i'll try again. thanks!

I mentioned in the threads earlier a 16GA FH case
I made from bmg brass. Then I put it in a 16ga
Stevens 94 break action by lengthening chamber
for the 3.5" case. I kept speed and pressures down
as the regular barrel on the gun had a thin muzzle.
Now I found a thick heavy 16ga 32" alloy tube and
I had extra Enfield test action, with the port
opened for longer cases. I turned it 1.1" at the
muzzle. Nice and heavy. It does a 630gr 16ga
'Greg S' slug 2400 and 385 gr Lightfield 16ga slug
to 3000, without the bottom 2/3 of the case
having to be resized. With RE-17. I have these cases
setup for shotgun primers.The Lightfield has it own
seal on the locked on base and for 630 gr use
a BPGS type with flexseal, under it.
More info about the seal and cushion for 16ga
630 gr slug. Plastic seal works best.A clearer description
It is a BPGS type plastic seal, IE, a one way seal,
and a flex type cushion. One way seals best.The seal/cushion,
is the bottom part from a 16ga wad cups I got.
Like bottom half of bottom trap commander 16ga wad. Ed

I'm going to be making a run of 12Ga FH threaded rims and Full length threaded cases. The cases can have either the .50 bmg primer or a 209 shotgun primer. You can order either straight wall or to be fire formed cases. I will also be doing a run of the 1000 gr Brass Darwin bullets. Pse let me know if you want some by PM. If there is enough interest I may also do a run of 12gaFH reloading dies and primer swatted.-Rob

quote:

Originally posted by hubel458: and in other parts of the world
like AUS,they tell me aren't allowed any bmg components.

Sad but true, I'm one of the above types, have to use 209 primers.

Here is picture the CBC 20ga FH setup
by mono-blocking a heavy 20 ga barrel
into a CBC 12ga breech section.The 20 heavy
barrel is threaded into the mono-block made
by cutting off 12ga barrel. These CBC actions
are taller and wider than other break actions
and the locking lug block works better and
nicer than other break actions.Also shown
is 20ga 3,5" plastic and brass cases.Ed

What dies do you use to prep and seat full bore 20 guage "bullets" into the brass cases?

I found some old Hollywood 20ga dies(scarce) that are setup
for plastic cases and the RMC brass cases are
thick like plastic ones, so they work to size ok.
Use in 1.5" ammomaster preass.Pictured above
in thread earlier. I only have to size the top
third on hairy slow RE17 powder loads.

For seating I just start slug or sabot in and
use press to push the rest of the way in . It is a
tight fit in brass.

In plastic roll we crimp. The plastic case
in picture is a Hastings 3.5" hotrod factory load.
Bought a case of them when they closed up..Ed

I see a lot of loading data but I just want to double check to make sure I have the right combintaion. I have a NEF that has been punched to 3.5inches, I have the RMC brass, I have some 715gr slugs, some 600 gr slugs, and some 1 ouncers I am going to load up and try out; and I just bought a pound of RE-17.
a few questions:
1. Does it matter which brand of primers I use in this?
2. What are the min and max powder charges for a 715gr, a 600gr, and a 438gr slug with RE-17? What about with RE-50?
3. What type of fillers are you guys using under the slugs if any? cards, dacron, loose fill?

Minimum on all weights is 80 gr with RE17 and Re50.
You do have NEF Ultra with bull barrel?

The Re50 only works on real heavy slugs 870gr and up.


I use Rem STS premium 209 primers.
Any mag primer should work.

Loads-1oz slug 200gr RE17 max
600gr slug 180gr Re17 max-
715 gr slug 170gr RE17 max

Use seal and cushion/filler wads where needed,
on all loads,absolutely no airspace.
The BPI BPGS powder seal is best and their flexseal cushion
is great, but you can use fiber wads for cushion/filler.
BPI BPGS seal can stack together so if there is room use two.
They are a one way seal better than anything else..Ed.

12 GSS? 12 Gauge Subsonic Sniper?
Some crossover here but was thinking what about a 12 gauge bullet in copper or brass to be designed to work in single shot rifled barrel shotgun like the NEF at nominal plastic hull magnum shotgun shell pressures? Thinking high BC design, flat base, bore rider, minimal driving bands, about 1200 grains and about 2.5" long. 600 yard subsonic sniper out of a cheap gun and plastic hulls? Can it be done?

Oh and congrats on 100,000 view mark!

Bump

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
12 GSS? 12 Gauge Subsonic Sniper?
Some crossover here but was thinking what about a 12 gauge bullet in copper or brass to be designed to work in single shot rifled barrel shotgun like the NEF at nominal plastic hull magnum shotgun shell pressures? Thinking high BC design, flat base, bore rider, minimal driving bands, about 1200 grains and about 2.5" long. 600 yard subsonic sniper out of a cheap gun and plastic hulls? Can it be done?

I won't be going fast enough for 600yd sniping.
That heavy of slug in plastic at regular pressures
only be going 10-1100 fps.

On the view count on the thread here is number 3 count wise,
of the 60 some forums where 12ga FH stuff is posted.. Ed

Well only needing 1,050 FPS.
Maybe some brass hulls might be better. If the bullet is of a high enough BC it should go far using normal subsonic rainbow trajectory.

Maybe I shouldn't show people this, but:
http://www.centerfiresystems.com/flare-rv85.aspx

The Chech made special high pressure loads for it, and it appears to be overbuilt way beyond the typical flare gun. Could it be the 4 bore from Detroit?

Built another NEF 12gaFh today for a friend. The new NEF's are almost 12GA FH ready out of the box. Took me about 2 minutes with my reamer. Let my friend try a 1000gr Darwin load over 225 gr of RL 25. Impressive load!!! Also fired a quadracone load! 4 250 gr eccentric cones over thecsame load as above! WOW! Nasty! Would not want to be a Ganstas in a civic with that coming your way! A suppressed 12 GAFH would be tacticool!-Rob

Hmmmm a suppressed subsonic 12 gauge sniper. I wonder how well that would work with a small charge and a large bore.
Rob, will you be making cnc muzzle breaks in 12 gauge as a part of your package from hell?
A break on a NEF would be cool.

Good lord!

Check out this video on YouTube
Kel-tek 12 gauge dual ammo tube shotgun.
Looks awesome but don't know how hot you can load it but could be good for the 12gfh 2"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...youtube_gdata_player

This guy using rifle sights is shooting slugs 230 yards so I don't see why a high BC round can't go double that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...youtube_gdata_player

I think that this summer I'm going to do a form 1 and make a 12 GAFH suppressor just to see how well it actually works. My home brew .308 works amazingly well and I've given some thought to one in 12ga. I usually do integral brakes on the NEF and it reduces recoil by 50%. a NEF without the brake and with full power loads is a handful.-Rob

Here are some 20ga slugs/sabots we rigged up.
I traded for whole box(hundreds) of 20ga Hammerhead
slugs, in the picture. They had pulled slugs
out of the locked on plastic base, so I glue them
back in so base stays for fair smoothbore accuracy.
And I also glued in various 458 bullets, as shown,
which fit tight in cup, up to 500gr. They discard
on impact. Fair accuracy at 50-70 yds. Less expensive
shooting as I have pile of hard lead 458 slugs.

Idea on 8ga FH. Looked at a TCR87 break action 10ga
and the breach mono-block can take a little bigger
barrel.If I find one I can afford(pricey) I'll do 8ga.
These are very strong actions, a little smaller version
of the action setup Colin put the 2bore in.
Just put in straight 8ga bull barrel like NEF Ultra.ED

Ed- I had a TCR87 and its just too light for such a cannon. I also was not impressed with the lock-up. I had a .308 barrel un-lock on firing. The Encore is a much better design. The guys who used to make aftermarket barrels never could be convinced to even make a .4167 Rigby. There were alot of things I didnt like about that action and I eventually sold it. Too bad because they are kinda rare these days.-Rob

What is done, is what NEF guys who had
unlocking problems is put in a heavier
spring and check to make sure of the contact..
On NEFs I double springs up where we bored
out for 8ga and on my 12ga FH, on my 10ga,and the one I
monoblocked to 585HE.
The TCR is a horizontal locking lug sliding
into a slot in the pivot block. Much stronger if
right If spring is strong, and springs do
lose tension, it can't come out. The Encore is
horizontal lock only from opposite direction.
ON both Encore and TCRs if the sliding locks are binding
they may not slide in right and have to be fixed to go
in all the way, so that they won't open on firing.
And they stay locked with good springs and if
going in ok. Guys have used high pressure
rifle cases in them, like 7mm MAG.And guys
elsewhere say their TCRs in 416 work great.
I did 12ga 3.5" on Encore for testing brass cases.
The horizontal lock worked great.I think
they went to Encore as it was much easier to build.

The NEFs we bored to 8ga had a 1.2" dia breech
and the TCR would take a barrel with 1.3" plus
breech, even better for 8ga..
The horizontal locking into slot is much better than
traditional swinging locking block against an
angled surface like NEF, Stevens, WIN 37, CBC, etc.
Now the CBC I just did the 20ga monoblock on, is swinging
block, but its block goes past the edge of the angled
surface so it locks better. On most others the block
just goes half way onto the angled surface.

Under recoil the guns with locking blocks sliding or pivoting
from the rear, get in rearward motion, then when recoil stops,
the locking blocks want to keep going and if springs are weak
they can keep moving rearward and may unlock. The Encore has
sliding block from the front in the pivot, locking into action
and under recoil it is moving in the locking direction.ED

Here is picture of the 4bore in a more finished look.
Second picture is closeup of cases and 1520 gr
hollowbase hard slugs. The 4bore is smooth bore so
hollowbase slugs are used. I set up gun with
smoothbore as that saved large amount of time and
money on the barrel. Ed

I found 3 long brass 8ga cases to go with
the 3.3" plastic ones. They are an inch longer
and made by RMC. The 8ga barrel I'm putting
on a falling block will have the chamber long
so I can use both lengths of cases.Ed