Ed,
The material we use for the sabots of the US-S slugs is high density polyethylene.

Lefteris
www.europeancartridgeunlimited.com

quote:

Next picture is a 1.5" Minie ball slug, might work for
close to a one gauge. It is next to older 37mm case which
might fire it also. Maybe a way to make a one gauge of
sorts, if.......I get enough ambition...Ed

One gauge.!.!.!

Ed…

You’re too valuable to the big bore community…need to see if you can get a volunteer to touch one off in that….

I'll probably never get to that one, stop at 2 bore.

Some more 12ga sabot work. The sabots in first picture are
like ones we want to get made for reloading.
They have 440gr Dixie Gunworks muzzleloading minie slug.
I related earlier that 3 shots with these in heavy rifled
barrel NEF got them all in nearly the same hole, at 30 yds.
Also 4 shots same distance, a 3 inch best group, smooth barrel.
The slight hollow base helps with smooth barrel. The hollow
base isn't as deep say as a 12ga foster slug.Another one they
have, a little heavier, with little deeper hollow base should
make tighter group. Loads in 3.5" plastic going about 2200.



Second picture shows something new I found out.It shows two
different wad setups. When I took the REM Accutip loads apart
I notice they used a thick seal, old style white felt cushion.
All the tests I read about that factory load, says it is always
near the top in accuracy. I had used the BPGS and flexseal
cushion mostly, as it seals real good. But in the smoothbore
test above the thick seal and felt wad gave the 3" group and
the other wad setup 5". The smoothbore, which isn't a perfect
system for slugs not designed for smooth, worked out to show
and magnify difference betwwen the two..

What first clued me in on this, to make a check, was recent two
weeks research on net,on all sabot patents, where I read that
sometimes plastic cushions cock a little affecting accuracy.
That is the plastic cushions with a lot of space in them.
Where the felt cushions stay much more stable for a bigger
percentage of shots.The very accurate Hornady SST sabot has no
cushion at all between seal and sabot, but a thin rubber cushion
disc inside their sabot, and the above may be one reason.
The Federal Fusion sabots and the Federal Expander sabot
both are accurate--they don't have a wide open plastic cushion.



Third picture is of a Greener Martini slug gun a guy rigged up
with a heavy rifled bull barrel in 12ga. Great looking gun.



Finally thoughts about all of our posts on many forums(110)
around the net. We are very happy with the response and help
we get doing this. We feel this thread a positive boon and help
to shooters interested in big bores, and by venturing into
the big bore areas will promote more guys getting into shooting,
reloading, smithing, etc. And a measure of interest are the views.
All sites including a big picture site, have about 9 million views.
And also we congratulate the 24hr Campfire Big Bore as being
being the first with our regular 12ga FH thread to go
over 200,000 views.Next is the Highroad with nearly 150,000,
third is the Firingline with nearly 125,000, 4th Accurate
Reloading 112,000, and 5th WeaponsForum 106,000.ED

ED- Where did you get those locked on bases?-Rob

If you referring to the green bases
they came from Lefteris who sent a few
slugs and base combos locked together when he
first made them up 3 years ago.
I tested them at high speed for him. They are
the US-S slug. ED

Some possibilities with the 12ga sabots we have been
looking at. We may have possible leads on companies that
can make sabots, that have most of equipment to do so.
If they work out ok, the startup cost isn't as
high as others who have to set up complete machines.
We are working to line up a dealer who will get good ones
made, at one of these sabot making companies.WE hope to
have similiar design as the ones pictured below
but with slightly thicker base. I've sent these sabots
with Dixie cast slugs to different companies to show
what is needed, and what the full size specs should be.
With Dixie cast in they are similiar to Federal
Fusion sabots with lead slugs, only our slugs are 58cal.
We will keep you informed on what happens. At least 5
58cal slugs that Dixie has, looks maybe to work in these,
as best I can tell. And there are a few molds for
58cal cast slugs, by different companies.
The possibilities are, to reload with decent price slugs
and simple inexpensive sabot like these, for buck a round.
40-60 cent slug, 15-20 cent sabot, powder/primer 30 cents.



Those sabots I pictured above we been testing, had 385gr
Remington plastic nose bullets. I used some in my
585HE and I get them to 3900 fps. Just to see how
fast was possible in the 585. If I shot them in
my biggest 585, the 585 HSM, they'd go about 4500 or so.
They are real light compared to 750gr 585 cal bullets.
Like a varmint round. Do up a coyote fine.All skinned.



Some neat guns-First is a 20ga smooth bore Beretta style
break action 20ga. This is one of the greatest style
break actions there is. Beretta made their trap guns on
actions like this and great value for no more
than they cost. This one only 100 bucks.
We lengthened chamber to 3.5" so it can
use various 20ga smoothbore slug loads that we are
working on and testing..The SPW, Hastings, Lightfield
type 20ga slugs have decent 50yd accuracy in heavier
smooth barrels.



Next is couple of older guns I found pictures of,
a 4bore Hughes and a 600NE Wilke. I like them.
2nd is special 20ga double that poster Nitro 450 Express
on the NitroExpress forum had built. Great job
on nice looking slug gun.Ed

Here are a couple high speed, stop frame photos, showing how well
and even these sabots we want to get made, open up.
The petals being thinner with 58 cal bullets or slugs, opens easy.
The slots between petals, going into the base aids even opening.
We know a couple retailers that are interested in selling these
style of sabots, if they round up the money to get the
aquipment setup. Shooting supply companies are down some
due the economy.





Third is the 585 HE project, using a Savage 110-112 bolt action.
Shown with barrel threaded and screwing action on.
And the action is long enough to make a single stack mag, if we
want, that would feed, with a little work, our 585 HE long case.



4th & 5th; pictures are of a old time 20 gauge, double slug and shot
gun that was priced little less than the big name English ones.
It is a Husqvarna double. Nice gun, we'd really have fun with modern
20ga slug shooting using this ..Ed

Great job.

Some info we have found out about the operation of discarding sabots.
In first picture you see thin white line between the strong powder
and the sabot. It is the white fiber cushion wad pressed flat. It is
shown on the left in second picture. In the picture of it compressed
you see it is pushing squarely on the sabot. This is most important
wheh the sabot and slug exit barrel to get the slug started as
straight as possible for accuracy.

Other types of plastic cushions aid in sealing and help get best
velocities but the rolls and legs in them can allow them to side shift
which can affect how straight the sabot is on exit, thus causing the
slug to deviate. The gray sabots we tried had cushion on the bottom
of them and inspecting them after firing you could see they were pushed
sideway some of the time. That is why we are trying to get tight
fitting simple sabots built and recommend using heavy plastic seals
with fiber wads to have least deviation and best accuracy.







Third picture is our steel block we are using for 2bore
with breach hole we got EDM'd into it.



Fourth picture is an old time Kynoch round called the
"Lethal" and the "destructor".




Fith picture is a H&H underlever double 8bore.
Nice beautifal old gun.Ed

I think we found good overall sabot design that will
be the easiest to get made, easiest to get seals
and whatever wads needed... Keeping design simple.
It is same simple design as the ones pictured above
but with slightly thicker base.It is fairly compact
for more room for our slow powder loads, and when
using slower powders, we don't need as much cushioning
which makes the room for the powder. Larger charges
of slower powder, better velocity with less case
expansion, and more reloads possible.

We hadn't tested soft lead 58cal slugs in 12ga sabots
for penetration until now.. They did very well,
two different 440 gr ones, going though 4 inch dried
timber, pushing out some wood on the back.
Shows they are just starting to expand.Should do great
for deer and hogs. Going 2200 in long barrel NEF.
Have pictures later. A 58cal slug at good speed is
nothing to look down on. Many African hunters liked
that caliber in their 577 doubles for big game.
Slugs can be loaded faster, cast heavier,
and cast harder for any need.And compared to other
way of geyying slugs out of a shotgun caliber, once
we have good fullbore sabots, we save on needing
bullet lube, gas checks, cheaper to get, no barrel
leading, much better BC in the same weight of slugs...


Here are pictures of molds that can make cast
58cal slugs for the 12ga sabot we are working
on.There are many makers and brands and styles
of molds and weights available.






Here is picture of a 10ga wadcup with a 730gr hollowbase
lead slug in on the left .In my heavy barrel 10ga smoothbore
I got 6" group at 50 yds. If we made hollow in the base
bigger it would be more accurate in smooth barrel.
The slug is .69cal one,measures .686", from Lymam mold
like in picture, that Dixie Gunworks has. I bumped up the
diameter about .015" --wadcup is BPI VP100.




Here is picture of a nice 8ga double a fellow has.
Great looking gun..Ed

Working more with 58cal lead slugs in 12ga sabot we want
to get built. We shot a few for checking penetration,
with 440gr slugs at 2200 plus fps. Shooting into popple.
In picture the 6x6 on the left penetrated by harder lead
alloy slug, with slug showing very little expansion on
exit from the 6x6, On the right, soft pure lead slug through
a 4x6 starting to show expansion on exit. These slugs can be
gotten or cast your own to about any hardess needed.
They can even be heat treated to be as hard as jacketed.
I have rounded up 9 different ones very easy, shown in
2nd picture and there are more. Ones in picture range
from 400gr to 530 gr. There are molds to make them
down to 350 gr and less.





Here is picture, on left of Accutip sabot we been taking out
of loaded rounds and testing 58cal lead slugs with,
and right a hard plastic sabot model, we are working on
to see how slugs fit and how it looks, and how
it compares to the Accutip and other sabots we have
here from WIN, REM, FED, Hornady.



In picture is a really neat, very strong, 10ga Beretta style
gun we got. Its barrel is heavier at the muzzle than most
all 10 gauges we've seen except the NEF with bull barrel.
Made by Pedretti, has top lever to open, instead bottom
lever like Beretta or the Investarm 20ga we showed above.
Going to make into switch barrel for 10ga and monoblock one
in 585HE later. Have 2 barrels for it. Has nice big pad we put
on it and it is weighted to 12 lbs in 10ga..



Now for some internal ballistics comparisons.There is formula
for figuring appoximate Average Barrel Pressure,

You take Muzzle Energy times 12......and divide it by

the BORE Area in sq in, times the length of the barrel in inches.

Examples- you have a 458 WIN, my 585HE and 12ga 3.5"--
all at 5000 Ft Lbs of energy which for 458 be standard load.
The 585HE in this mode would be burning close to charcoal.
The 12ga 3.5 would be 440gr slug in sabot at 2200 plus.

The 458 Ave Barrel Pressure is about 16,000 psi.
The 585HE Ave Barrel Pressure is about 8,000 psi.
The 3.5 12ga Ave Barrel Pressure about 5,200 psi.

The purpose of this-- To show the possibilites of big bores.
Ok you can't go much higher with 458WIN, about 80gr of powder

But 585HE you can get way over 10,000 ft lbs,with 180gr powder
it holds running at 458WIN Ave Barrel pressure.

AND 12ga and 3.5" brass case in Savage 210, slow powder loads,
heavy barrel, you can get over 10,000 ft lb. with 180gr powder
at much less than 458Win Ave Barrel Pressure.
Possibilities are really great fun. Ed

Ed,

Is bore area the same as calculating the cross sectional area of the bullet???

So a .458 bullet would have a cross sectional area of .1647 inches???

πr2...

I think I’ve got it…

ABP = (ME*12) / (CSA*BBL LGTH)

15,834 = (5000*12) / (.16478*23)

Backed into 23” bbl on 458…

So longer bbls have lower average pressure…

Or with same amount of powder and same bullet
weight with more barrel length, get little
more speed and energy so that
the top figure in the equation is higher also.
Thus the average won't drop much.Ed

Some 12ga sabot progress. Here is pic of our sabot model, two
in front, shown with Accutip sabot behind. They are all holding
58cal slugs, showing how tight they fit and conform
to the inside of the sabot petals. A decent fit is a help
for better accuracy. Hope they get built for us this summer.
We are working on it.




Second picture is from a fellow who put 58cal cast slugs in a
thinwall 20ga shotcup and shot this at 50 yds. This with first
load he tried. Great accuracy for so many shots. This shows
great possibilities with 58cal slugs, and should even do better
in the 12ga sabot like the above we like. I've heard about BP
guys who got into 58cal that they get good accuracy.




Here is picture of some the grey bls sabots showing the way
they have got bent and beat up, and shows what I and many
others have found; that plastic cushions can bend and twist
and shift, affecting the slug on leaving the barrel, affecting
the accuracy.




On a future work, I'm doing a Greener Martini in my 585HE long
case, Here is picture of a parts action with a stock idea
I'm experimenting with. Might use this or regular pistol grip.

ed- Great work!-Rob

Test in 3.5" plastic using a few accutip 12ga sabots out of factory loads.
The 12ga accutip sabot, hard cast 440gr 58cal minie slug in
36" rifled NEF at 2200, and it went through 12 inches of wood like
butter. The hole out showed it was starting to expand a little.

Test of softer lead 500gr 58cal Minie with deeper hollowbase in accutip
in smooth cylinder bore barrel at 2000, and 3 shots in 3" at 30 yds.
This was a Lyman 575213 new style minie slug
More experimenting can make these work fair in smooth barrels.
For best accuracy use a blunt nose heavier 58cal 600gr slug with
deepest hollow in the base. The blunt nose would be more front end
heavy and a little more accurate from smooth bore..
Lee and Lyman have molds like that.Others selling slugs also.

I mentioned before about seals/wads must be stable and not crush
down off center, or it might affect accuracy. Here is picture of
the one piece seal and wad Federal uses in their sabot loads.
Notice it doesn't have a lot of space in the cushion part that would
allow it to tip or go off center.



Here is picture of some 10ga work using expanded 69cal minie and
700cal bullets in 10ga wadcup. 69cal hollowbase fairly accurate to
50yds in heavy barrel smoothbore.



Here is picture of the Savage 110 done in my 585HE. Hollow butt of the
stock is weighted, gun handles nice.Ed

Guy using scoped NEF Ultra 12ga, 24 inch
barrel, shot hard cast, 400 gr 58cal Lyman Minie
in Accutip sabot at 75 yds. Hit small paper plate
5 for 5. Going 2000fps.

Speaking of 585HE above. We have two in falling blocks,
10 bolt guns,5 break actions, and other types.
A fun cartridge, and now that we are working with
58cal slugs in 12ga sabots, 58 cal is where it is at..
And now we are getting a run of 585HE cases made.
Bertram getting ready to make the last die;
done later this month and will be doing cases then.
Cases are 3 bucks each, bulk shipping included.
He usually charges 5 or more for wildcats, but as
I'm furnishing final sizing die, and he will ship
by bulk freight saving him handling, and he had
a couple tools already to use, he said $3 each, a
real good deal..

He will ship whole bulk order to me.
I will pass them on to everyone buying in first run.
I and the boy will get a bunch also, to load for others,
to fill orders, and collectors. Get 100 for 300 bucks,
or be a 500 guy buying a 167 cases for 500 bucks.
I'm having guys just make out MO to Bertram Bullets
and get it to me and I send them on to him.
I'll keep track of who gets what and ship cases to
the guys helping with first run, no shipping charge.
Want to make the run as big as possible. Got
money ready to go for over 700.
Like to get 3-4 times as much if possible.Ed

Ed,
Your efforts and continuous research gave new meaning to the words "12 gauge shotgun".
Keep up the good work.

Lefteris
www.europeancartridgeunlimited.com

This thread NEEDS TO BE EARMARKED at the top of the Big Bore page.

After not being on here for quite a while since I have been on here, this thread delivers---and I have A LOT of catching up to do!!!

I have been revisiting an old article from Gun Digest of 1996, on pages 134-139, of the .775 Rigby......a 10 Bore double, while thinking of this thread and how "cool" a 12 Bore double would compliment my .416 Rigby RSM......so now I am seriously wanting a 12 Bore Double, with a 3 1/2 chamber, using 3" brass cases.

THANKS ED HUBEL, for being a serious big bore fanatic and paving the way for a new wave of some pretty darn cool shit.

I've seen some 12 gauge muzzle loaders.
Is there a cool way to make a 12 GFH single shot muzzle loader? What primers? Shotgun or BMG or normal muzzle loader primers?

Usually shotgun primers in regular weight barrels
as there are various breach plugs using them.
Like in NEF and Encore. Use a FED 239 primer for best ignition.

I could put a heavy MZ barrel on my 8ga falling block action
using breach plug inserts with BMG primers in them. That
would be loaded in inserts ahead of time and just change
insert for every load. Screw in and out by hand
That way it would be super strong and leak proof
for hairy loads.Make breach plug so its base would be like
BMG case, then you could prime it with press.Ed

Would a muzzle loader be the cheapest 12 GFH since no costly reloading tools and cases, just a modified heavy barrel muzzle loader gun? Muzzle stuffers are almost a cult and I'm
Sure they would love such a litteral cannon. Not to mention you can use it for hunting as a 12 gauge.

To make a 12GA FH ML from a regular 12ga ML, you
just add powder.. 2-3-4 times as much...

AND be sure the barrel is heavy enough.
The major need is strong barrel.Ed

Thats the Achilles heel for most shotguns. The barrel is too thin.

Add a rubber tire and a long string!-Rob

Warning!
Outside of the box thinking.
I admit this could be a brain fart.
What if say you took a 600 OK and bored it out to .729 to the depth of the neck and used it as a sort of mini muzzle loader 12GFH? use the charge of the 600 to propel the 12 gauge slug or sabot. maybe a better idea is to have a removeable front part of the barrel you screw in. Think of it as a monoblock bolt action. you could screw in the caliber of choice. the neck area of bottle neck carts would have more meat on the barrel. this could be done to make a 416 Rigby to a 600 or 577 or 510 Ect Ect. as well but hey just thinking of the 12 Gauge right now. Breach loaded case with charge and muzzle load the projo. Stupid? Just a way to propel a larger bore than the case could handle. Interesting possibilities.

Booie- time to llie down and rest and let the voices go away.-Rob

Here is picture of the two ball sabot load, using two
58cal balls in a 12ga Accutip style sabot.



Hoping we will have sabot like above for reloading soon,
in volumn so we can load and test a bunch of these 58cal
bullets and slugs. There are soft cast, hard cast, and
the heavier jacketed. These all work in my 585HE also.
The 440gr hollowbase ones loose in the big box on left
measure in at .585" and work great in my 585HE cases.



Part of my 585HEs are smooth barrels guns
just for testing the different style guns, and different loads.
In the one smooth barreled one I have on BBK action, shooting
my 585HE with 440 gr hollowbased Minie slug, we were hitting
8 inch paper plate with them going about 2700 at 30yds.
Hollowbased they act like shotguh slug at short rahges.

Will be neat deal to shoot them in 12ga accutip style sabots in
rifled 12 gauges and the smoothbore 585HEs with $30 barrels.
Here is picture of Pedretti(Beretta style) that came as 10ga. I
have monoblocked in 585 barrel. In picture there is 585HE case
partly out of chamber. I have extra fairly heavy 10ga barrel
also and changes in 2 minutes. And that monoblock break
action locks up like a bank vault.Real strong.





And an ultimate big bore from history.ED

We hope a company will be making our modeled 12ga sabots
soon, this fall, to deliver to reloaders and suppliers..
We also got first part of funds collected for the initial big run
for our 585HE long cases being made. Sending in bunch
this week, and need more to make run bigger For more info
if your interested contact me.

We, others, and 'VdoMemorie' on the Cast Bullet forums
and Shotgun World are experimenting with 58cal Minie slugs and
58cal round balls in 20ga wadcups, and find it is away to slug
load your 20ga economically. You can use 20ga Commander wad and
also shorter "sporting 20 short" wad from BPI. I cut bottom off of
commander and use felt wads and 20ga obturator seal with .575"
470gr minie slug and got 4" group at 30 yds, with smooth barrel.
That is with heavy thick,smooth barrel I put in CBC below.

Here is picture of the CBC break action that I mono-blocked in smooth
super heavy, thick 20ga barrel..30" long, chambered for 3.5" cases.
Works great with 3.5" plastic or brass cases.



Here is picture of the 1887 WIn with my 585HE in it. I put in a
heavy barrel and different kind of extractor Barrel is 28"..
I like putting my 585HE in all the old style of guns, just
to show all the uses the case has.



I found supply of super long bmg cases to make my 700HE Long cases.
It is 4.27" long and holds over 370 gr ball powder, 1000gr at 3400 plus.
I have it in my Vulcan BMG bolt action and I just got one done in
a MRC PH bolt gun, in picture below...Ed

I found pics of a factory 12ga over under that
has bottom barrel rifled, top one smooth with
chokes. Will have pics few days. Also pics of
585HE case samples from the first run
of my 585HE cases, Bertram is doing.ED

Ed- where did you find those super long BMG cases?-Rob

They are scarce; took 5 years to find box full from collector;
they are what is called the bulleted blank. It is
Bmg case with extra metal on the front in shape
of a bullet that is crimped over. The regular blanks
have the neck crimped and these bulleted blanks 3/4" longer.
They can be cut off, squared up, annealed, and expanded
carefully. Lots of annealing, and make case about .400" longer.
I sent you a PM..

I like the longer case better than my regular 700HE.
But it is extra work.
I'm glad I got run of my 585s made;
saves me lots of work that makes me tired.
Bruce made over 4000 on the run for me.
Need more guys to get in on the order with me. ED

quote:

Originally posted by hubel458:
I think O/Us are the best looking guns in the world.
Got a plan to get a ten that has heavy barrels.
Finding 12s with heavy barrel, no luck, but have
got one that I'm am sleeving down to my 585HE.

Ed,

Have you had a look at the Rossi Mod S12 (1230S) ? Looks like a good candidate

I haven't seen one. Is that a slug gun.Ed

quote:

Originally posted by hubel458:
I haven't seen one. Is that a slug gun.Ed

Yup, they are one of the few heavy barreled versions in a break-open action available. My Greener bore rifle project is underway and I recently got a mold made which is a full-bore design of the Lyman Sabot slug, its a .730" at the top and bottom bands, eager to see how it will shoot

Ed, thanks for the heads up on the 20 gauge wads with the cast mini ball bullet. What kind of powder and how much are you running? I have 3.5 inch RMC cases. Thanks for all your research and development!

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
RIP- To be honest, in the NEF, the recoil with the muzzel break is really no worse than a Lott. To be generous I hope my break reduces recoil by 25% nso even un-braked it will be no worse than a .460WBY. I think you will run into the NEF's pressure limit well before the recoil limit sets in. I really would not bother to add more weight other than as ED did if you feel the need add a new hole in the buttstock and add some lead. I have used Mercury recoil reducers in past projects and frankly they did seem better than just added weight but not enough to justify their cost.-Rob

Gents

Today I had the pleasure or should I rather say horror, to view a NEF and take some meassurements from it.

My hat down to all of you gentleman who convert these actions into 12GaH and shoot them.

The only way I would shoot one of these convertions would be from a tyre and the help of a long rope.

If it was in some other (BMG like) action it would be a pleasure to shoot it, but in the NEF.

It is never ever for me.

Pyzda

The pressure they are running I think is quite low.

Terrific work and lost of info!