Lefteris- PM'd you back. I'm going to buy a Bennelli today.-Rob

Rob,
May I suggest the Supernova with the Comfortech stock.

Lefteris
www.europeancartridgeunlimited.com

Lefteris- I hear you!-Rob

Rob,
PM replied.

Lefteris
www.europeancartridgeunlimited.com

I saw something amazing yesterday.
It was a blown up Mossberg 500 shotgun.
Someone had loaded a heavy charge of fast powder instead of slow.
The amazing part was that fact that the barrel burst at the chamber but the Bolt and Reciever HELD.
I've never considered the Mossy 500 of having a strong action. But it must be strong enough.

Cheers, John

Mossys are fairly strong gun just like the
Khan autos I have, compared to thin shotgun
barrels, most with MZ type steel, as opposed
to high alloy.

That is why I don't reload with fast shotgun
powder, as slight changes in components,
the powder amount, the temperature, etc
can be dangerous, even though I have been asked to
for testing. The fastest I go now IS ALLIANT STEEL,
the slowest of the slow shotgun powders,
which is just a slower type made like IMR 4759.
Now the 12ga 3" plastic load we had tested of 600 gr slug with
90gr of 4759, was 14,700 psi 5 shot average, 1900 plus.
For a test I left out the wad, used just the seal, same slug,
115gr 4759 all it would hold and the 3" plastic
case just extracted real hard with a rod to help,
but was reloadable, and gun no problems.
So slower powder and no airspace, the only way. Ed

Did some evaluation on the Benneli Nova and 12 GaFH shortened brass today. The good news is the brass fits feeds and ejects perfectly. The bad news the Brass case OAl is limited to 3.00" or so due to the inability to lift longer brass up into the action. The barrel is rated for 3.5 inch cases and they fit into the chamber and even eject Ok but the action itself is just too short for even a 3.25" case. I'll try a 3.125 case later and see if it will angle up into the elevator. Really close though! The other problem is it won't ignite .50BMG primers at all. Hammer is way too light also. This means you need to use bushed 12 ga shotgun primers. Lefteris sent me his plastic sabots and they fit my .620 bullets perfectly. The short sabots are a perfect fit with my 750 gr crayola tip bullets. The longer sabots are also a perfect fit with the longer 900 gr bullets. The 750's and short sabots will give me a bit more powder capacity. Not sure yet what powder to start with and maybe Ed or Lefteris has some suggestions. -Rob

Rob- Is the sabot the ones with integral powder seal
and how far down in the 3" case will they be.
With shotgun primers, 750gr slug, IMR 4759 will work,and
depending on the powder room, to get decent
speed, use up the following powder levels
I used 90gr in 3" plastic and 97gr in 3.5" plastic, and
105grs in 3" brass cases. This is with modern high alloy
barrels like your gun.Ed

Ed- no the sabots will require a separate powder seal. I'll start with 90 grs of that IMR powder and see where it goes.May work more on the case length issue. Gotta study the action more and see what I can figure out.-Rob

Yours may be like the middle one in pic without seal
on it. That one has 730gr in it. A guy wanted to use them
in preal short brass, in picture, but the sabot and seal
for it didn't leave enough powder space for the speed
he wanted.

So we are using the short full bore lead slugs and a seal.
Best seal for that sabot is BPI "Powder Cup"- 250 for
6 bucks. If they are out you can use their X12X. Ed

Rob,
Please, check your e-mails.
Maximum loaded length must be 3.150" max for the shells to cycle through the Nova action. Sorry, I have not any data with USA available powders but I'm sure that Ed, "The Guru" of 12ga heavy bullet loads could help here.
If your Nova came with a smoothbore barrel, it is chambered for 3.5" hulls. If it came with a fully rifled barrel it is chambered for 3" hulls.
I was informed that Federal has their 12ga, 3.5" hulls available as components, primed with #239 primers.

Lefteris
www.europeancartridgeunlimited.com

OK, I'm confused

I thought 3 1/2 inch 12ga shells were 3.2inches long.

Lefteris is correct, I tried a 3.250 long case in the Nova and it would not elevate up into the action. It would chamber and eject but would not cycle. A 3.00 inch case worked so I'm sure he is correct and a 3.150 case will also work. I have a smoothbore barrel and it is marked 3.5" and a 3.500" case will actually chamber just fine, it just can't make it through the action. I may be able to adjust things abit but have to study it more.
Ed- Yes its the short sabot in the center and I'll need powder seal under it. The bullet will be a short 750 gr .620 crayola tip. Can you get 100gr of IMR 4759 into a 3.150 case?-Rob

Yes a 3.125" case with that sabot in almost flush
and one seal, you can get 100 plus grains.

Most roll crimped 3.5" plastic cases are 3.15-3.20" when
roll crimped. Ed

We are always looking for way to shoot 8 and 10s
using easy to get components,cheap, without buying
loaded rounds for big bucks, if available at all.

In 8ga falling block, plastic got 930gr hollowbase
slug to 2300, It is a slug for 10 ga that we expanded
base a little to fit tight in 8ga wadcup. On the left in
picture. At 30 yds 3" group. Just with open sight,
About like the 10ga sight bead. There is enough hollow in
the base it flies pretty good from 8ga smooth barrel.

Along same line, in my 10ga 32" smooth bull barrel with a
750 gr .69cal hollowbase Dixie MZ slug in VP100
10ga wadcup about same speed and same accuracy.
Nice to just get a box of slugs that is in stock,
and a 2cent cent wadcup and Fed 3.5" 10ga plastic cases
and be shooting cheap.And the cases roll crimp nice
down to these slugs.

And also the hotrod 20 ga 3.5" Hastings factory loads in
a smooth barrel moderate weight 20ga shoots about
same accuracy even though they say for rifled, but that
SPW slug/wad combo has enough plastic and seal on the back
and to shoot like aBrenekke. The new 28ga Brenekkes
out of 28ga NEF modified choke barrel shoots same at 30yds.
Scoped guns and good eyes would shrink groups.Ed

A new player and design
SRM 1216 semi auto.
Question is how strong is it.
12 gauge rotary magazine holding 16 rounds of 3" shells

A different, interesting style, of 12ga slug, from Russia.
First picture loaded round, in plastic, roll crimped.
Second, two types of slugs they have on the same base.
Base for rifled barrel, little smaller diameter than the front.
Looks like the roll crimp locks against
the edge of the base. Neat idea, and it could have a
flat meplat slug on the front of the base like
the US-S brass slugs fron Greece are on the
plastic bases that I have here. They must use a crimping
die with a deep hollow up in the middle. We have thought
of taking a roll crimper and putting a deeper recess
in middle to load longer nose slugs further out so as to
have more room for our slower powders.ED

Ed,
Yoy must be reading in my mind.



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Lefteris
www.europeancartridgeunlimited.com

Lefteris,
You know you can't just put an image up like that with out telling us all about it.
I might hurt myself thinking about it.

Cheers, John

Well he is experimenting with what he can
get in slug designs, to work in his sabots,
He has got many bullet weights with flat meplat
nose and the lightweight short pointed ones,
plus the long pointed one he just showed.
As far as smooth bores go his sabot base design
locked to about any slug on the front of it. gives
rifled barrel accuracy or better.

Lefteris I really need to buy on of those
hollow center crimpers. ASAP. PM me with
price. The crimpers here don't have room for any great
debth of a hollow that I need.Ed

John,
As Ed explained, the slug in the photo is a two diameter one. The front part is .510 caliber and hollow pointed so it could easily expand on game. The rear part is .629 caliber (same as the other slugs we make) and solid.
After the front .50cal part expands the petals break away leaving the solid .630cal rear part to continue penetration. Both soft and solid performance built into the same slug design.
The slug in the photo weights 700grains and overall loaded length is 3.030", loaded in a 2.75" hull. It must be used in 3.5" guns for repeaters or it could be loaded in any length 12ga hull if for break action guns.
It could be used in both smoothbore and fully rifled barrels.

Ed,
I know, roll crimp tools are designed with different parameters in mind. I'll make another one, like this in the photo, and send to you. The portion of the slug's nose that extends beyond crimp must have a diameter of no more than .550 max.

Lefteris
www.europeancartridgeunlimited.com

Lefteris- Thankyou, that will be the perfect
size hollow for me. If you need that slug super high speed
tested send a couple along and we'll put the zip
to them. We all will be glad when we can
get your offerings over here.Ed

Powder should be here tomorrow. Can't wait to try some of these brass cased bullets in the Benelli. Ed- Do you have any good loads using RL-17?-Rob

Re17- Rob with 750 gr, all you can get packed in a 3.125" case.
In fact with a 3.25" case all you can get in.ED

Ed,
Made two roll crimping tools today, one for you and another one for a gentleman who asked for.
I will ship them next week.
"Two caliber" slugs will be available in a couple of months. I'll send some for testing at high speed.
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all.

Lefteris
www.europeancartridgeunlimited.com

Thankyou and have a blessed Christmas.Ed

Well I tested some 3.150 brass cases today with 90 grs of Sr 4759 , over the powder plastic wad, card wad and a 900 gr .620 brass bullet in Lefteris's plastic sabot.no crimp. Used the rifled NEF gun for testing. chrono yet but Really wasn't anything like the 12gaFH loads I'm used to. Used one case with a .50 BMG primer and the other a bushed 209. I expected much more power. Felt like a std 3" slug load. Cant imagine thesevwent over 1500 fps. May need some sort of crimp. Not possible to load more than 90 gr in these cases as OAL Exceeds what can be cycled through the Nova. Ed/ Lefteris any suggestions?-Rob

Rob- Most testing I did with 4759 was with
600 and 730gr fullbore lead in plastic.. In 3" plastic case
got 730gr to 1800 in 24" barrel, The pressure test lab
got over 1900 in 30" barrel. The 600 gr over a
100 fps faster.

In brass 3" case using fullbore 600gr lead slug
and one seal and one thin wad got
in 105gr of 4759. About 2050 with 600gr, long bbl.

With 900gr and 90gr of 4759, my formula shows
about 1550 max. To go faster more powder needed.
Or use the shorter sabot and 750 gr slug,
To get more in is a problem with sabot, card
and seal length with that long sabot and 900gr.
His sabots I have here seem tough enough, I didn't
need the card, Leave it out and add powder also.

I just took one brass case here at 3" long with his shorter
sabot with 750gr, and one BPI powder cup seal,
with sabot sticking out .15", to match your length.
I got 105 gr of 4759 in it..That 3" case was one of
the bmg based ones shortened. If using RMC case only
about 95 gr due to thicker base. All in all
a little lighter slug, shorter sabot seems better.

Without a crimp, with either type of brass
cases, using sabots of any kind, you need a real
tight fit, to get 100% clean burn.
By real tight I mean, I push sabot/slug in
with my press. I get them tight enough
so no crimp needed against the plastic sabot.Ed

ED- I'll try the shorter 750gr sabots and press the sabots into place tightly. I saw some unburnt powder but not alot. I do think the problem was in the lack of a crimp from the way it acted. -Rob

Rob,
In addition to what Ed wrote.
With a .629 slug in place outer sabot diameter is .735. Putting a .620 bullet in, sabot diameter is reduced at .726. If your gun has a groove diameter of .729-.730 maybe those extra .009 might be needed for a tighter fit and ignition resistant for complete powder burn. Just a thought.

Lefteris
www.europeancartridgeunlimited.com

Lefteris- I am going to offset the machine to make some .629 bullets. May need to start with larger brass rod. The NEF actually measures a bore diameter of .731. I'm going to compress the sabots and try the larger diameter bullets and see how it works. I'm also going to try some of my 1000gr Darwins seated flush in the case for a comparison.-Rob

Rob,
If you can find metric brass stock purchase some rods with 16mm diameter. They are actually 15.97 to 15.98mm so only machining the nose and cutting to length needed for making .629 bullets in a hurry.

Lefteris
www.europeancartridgeunlimited.com

Lefteris- Thanks for the tip. I'll check a few suppliers for 16mm brass rod. The nice thing about .620 bullets is the fact that you use 5/8 brass rod and have minimal wastage.
I'll make some prototype bullets from whatever stock I have laying around on my small CNC lathe and test things out. -Rob

This slug does not need a special "hollow nose" roll crimping tool to assemble.
Simply put the stabilising wad and sabot in place and roll crimp with a standard roll crimping tool. Then the slug is put in and locked in place by pushing it in the hull with the crimping head, without spinning of course.


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Lefteris
www.europeancartridgeunlimited.com

Lefteris-- I received crimper. Thankyou, it is beautiful
work.You have some great machinery.

IN above picture, is that base you push slug into, like the
locked on base green ones on the US-S slugs, or just the
discarding sabot ones? Ed

Ed,
Your welcome. Don't forget to put some oil on a cotton stick and lube the inside of the roll crimper, where it contacts and rolls down the hull, every 10 to 15 crimpings.
The slug in the above photo is a modified US-S 970 (longer ogive and smaller meplat) that weights 910grains but use the shorter sabot of the US-S 570. Green wad is also used so that the slug locks in and securely held in place. It is loaded in a 2.75" hull.
It more has the looks of a cartridge round than the typical slug shotshell.


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Lefteris
www.europeancartridgeunlimited.com

This picture of an RC4 brand slug I see is available
down under. It has locked base like Brenekke.
And locked on without discarding petals, like US-S.

And 2nd picture is a group fired with RC4 slugs
by fellow on NitroExpress forums from
double 12ga, 2 left and 2 rights at 25yds.

3rd picture is a discarding sabot base, and with
four discarding sabot carriers, with centered
penetrating solid bullet, from France.

Some more slug and sabot ideas folks are doing.

First is a long pointed slug with locked on base,
It goes to target with base,can work smoothbore.



Second is picture of Hexolit sabot base slug
with petals expanded, sure would make bad wound.



Third shows a variety of Gualandi slugs you can
get for reloading, and we're finding that these
locked base slugs, Brenekke/USS style slugs, are
giving good accuracy, where regular deer/hog shooting
occurs, in smooth barrels which can
save when doing heavy barrels.Weights shown in
grams, get our weights in grains multiply by 15.4..Ed

Here are some more sabot/slug and loading concepts.

First is Alcan 2.75" paper case with Dixie 600gr slug,
with the side of the case crimped into the relief/lube
groove of the Dixie slug.The groove in the Dixie isn't
quite as deep as the groove in the Fosbury slug shown
in earlier post, but still seems to crimp fairly tight.



Next are various slugs in 12ga REM sabots that take
57 cal slugs and bullets.Those sabots are from the REM
Accutip loadings. In picture you can see one of the
REM 385gr jkt bullets they use. Also shown is sabot
with 20ga cast Lyman and a sabot with hard cast 585 cal
640gr lead bullet, the ones I use in my 585HE wildcat
case. I sized it down a little, perfect fit.
Also usable are 575 cal Dixie Gunworks slugs.
Also shown is a long pointed 55 Boys bullet in one,
fairly tight fit.We cut back .3" of bullet off so it
fit for length in sabot and is 750gr.



Third are 3.5" brass and plastic with the REM sabot and
the 750gr pointed slugs in them.In all the sabot work we
and others have done, trying to get accuracy and high
speeds together, maybe there is such a thing as too
much plastic. IE sabots too thick on the sides if doing
50cal or smaller in 12ga sabots, for heavier slugs
at high speeds. Thinner sides may discard more evenly at
the greater pressures and violence of high speeds.
Thin sides may have less give so that sabot grips slug
better to impart spin in rifled use.Example in
smoothbore use is the USS slugs, where the brass slug
is .629" with thin discarding petals that have proven to
be very accurate.And with both reasonable priced sabot
offerings the last few years being undersize, accuracy
problems, maybe time to try something else.

Got to find whole bunch of these sabots. Are these pictured
12ga REMs the only 58cal ones around? I can't find others,
and maybe we can find where these are made. As I have
huge numbers of the 585 slugs and my guy can make many,
many more if you all need them whether for 585HE, 577NE,etc,
rifles, or in sabots if we can find some.ED

ROBOGUNBUILDER,

I have thought of doing what you are trying to do with the Supernova, although I was planning on just getting the most I could out of 3 ½” plastic hulls and 600 to 730 grain full bore slugs. Working with it I also found that it is very limited re OAL compared to most 3 ½” chambered pump guns. SAAMI spec for a 3 ½” folded shell is 3.155. There is no spec for a rolled 3 ½” shell, but a 3” rolled shell is .105” longer (SAAMI) than a folded shell. There doesn’t even seem to be enough room for even that extra .105” in the Benelli for a properly rolled 3 ½” hull. I would still like to build up a dangerous game shotgun on this platform using a 3 ½” chambered heavy slow twist barrel, but frankly I don’t have the skills. I did acquire a few blank barrel extensions and the magazine tube rings. If you would like a couple of extensions to work with and tube rings I would be happy to send them to you. If you build something up I would pay my way for a duplicate.