Maybe make the one side of one piece wide enought to accept a hardened spring loaded through locking pin to lock the pieces together...or put a set of spring loadedblind pins inside the piece on the receiver with a pair of spring loaded squeeze pins on the opposite piece...sort of an automatic lockup and just squeeze the pins together to push the blind pind in to unlock...or a combination of the two to thin out the separate pieces. Lots of farming equipment use ball bearings as locking pieces and a spring loaded pull pin to unlock...fairly simple to do with the correct machinery and knowhow and if it will hold a plow, scaled down a bit, it should hold in this application.

Shotgun came in today but I will wait now until after the first of the year....don't want to loose a barrel to the Christmas rush...going or coming.

Luck on your projects...and Happy Holidays.

Good discussion guys, I think we have a very viable solution for upgrading the NEF TO NEVER BEFORE SEEN lEVELS!
Range report No. 3. Fired a few 240gr Aluminum 1"deep hollow point Darwin Beer kegs over 185 gr of 3031 at a theoretical velocity of over 3000 fps at charging water bottles today. WOO HOO did they vaporize them!!! It you guys have seen the .600Ok on water bottles then this is even worse. No trace of any bullet metal even tiny fragments could be found, but the plastic pieces went 20yrds or more about the same distance as the water spray. VERY VERY IMPRESSIVE and about the same recoil as a 1oz sabot. Good accuracy continues as does no failures to ignite the .50BMG primers with my rims and .002 depth armed CCI-35's. Had a few people wander over to see what big gun just went off though. Didnt have any more rounds or they would have been very impressed.
Ed-I have a very elegant soln for the receiver block in development.

Man oh man this thread just keeps getting better! NEF Trek theme music needed: Same as Star Trek, where no shotgun has gone before.

I'm getting started on the 615 Nitro Express 3.25".
It will top the 600 NE 3".
Hastings is supposed to be offering a 3.5" 20Ga conversion of the NEF Ultra Slug for slug ammo they are supposed to be offering.

That reamer Hastings is using could be used, and brass hulls will follow, RMC or Hubel or Lone Mountain.

A .616-caliber Lead Darwin is on the drawing board, and .620-caliber NE bullets could surely be sized down to .615, eh?

That would be sweet in a BSS too.

I wonder if a Ruger No.1 could handle the rim of a 20ga?


600 NE rim is .805" max and a no-go in a Ruger No.1.
577 NE rim is .748" max and do-able in a No.1.
20Ga rim is .766" max, -.018" tolerance: the 20ga rims could be turned down to .748" and still be in spec for 20ga, what a coincidence!

A 615 NE 3.25" is maybe workable in a Ruger No.1, maybe even at .766" max rim diameter?

But those NEF-ers are so easy, just need the chamber lengthened.
20GaFH 3.85" anyone?

Scaling a 12GaFH 3.85" down to 20Ga would require a 3.204" case length (proportionality of .729" to .615").

20GaFH 3.25" is close enough, and using the 3.5" Hastings 20ga reamer would allow some freebore pressure reduction, and long-nose slug seating in brass case. Also, the 3.5" plastic hulls from Hastings, when available, will allow roll crimping a slug and sufficient boiler room. Recoil with a lead 20ga Darwin will be less obnoxious in the standard NEF-er at higher velocities, whatever the hulls and action will stand.

A .616-caliber Lead Darwin will be 1.375" long, same length as the .730-caliber Triple-Foster.

The 20 GA Darwin should weigh between 900 and 1000 grains, depending on the alloy. That is a Double-Foster slug.
Roughly: .615-cal/950-grain SD = 0.359
The 600 NE .620-cal/900-grain SD = 0.334
The 20GaFH/615NE3.25" wins.

The 12ga was the first gun I ever shot as a wee lad. The 20ga was the first gun I ever owned. Little bro' and I owned a matched pair of 20ga single shots. We used to take them to bed with us, he in top bunk, I in bottom bunk. Still gives me the warm-and-fuzzies, thinking of fondling that shotgun under the blankets. Every prepubertal boy should have such fun!

Highjack off.

RIP- I have some very good .600(.620) bullets)900gr Brass, Copper Bore riders, 750gr Flat Nose with supercavitation disc etc. Ready for Production once license arrives. Adjusting the diameter to .615 is of course trivial. I will also write a pgm for a .600 Beer Keg as I really like that design. In copper it would be serious. Assuming my NEF top lock kit works, a .600NE NEF could be extremely formidible with Turned brass cases good to 36KPSI. They are of course also easily made. Maybe make 4" cases. You wont be threatening the .600OK with this as it will have to be an easy 20Kpsi short, but it would still be alot of fun and a great enty level .600.-Rob
Could be very interesting. As it is still a shotgun( must still be able to fire 20ga normal shotgun shells/birdshot) and cases need to be so marked, it should not be considered a "over .50 caliber" rifle and thus a destructive device requiring special licensing. -Rob

Rob,
Will have to get a 20ga NEF-er, slug the bore and measure the twist to see what it really is.
O.K., forget the "615 NE 3.25", and call it 20GaFP 3.25", since it is only "purgatory-bad" compared to the 12GaFH.
20Ga 3.5" is advertized by Hastings, though no one I know has ever seen any of the loaded ammo.
Pictures of it in ads make it look freakishly
long with plastic hulls.
3.25" all-brass hull with protruding slug would make it look like a scaled-down 12GaFH.

Yep, with all of your existing .620-cal 600OK bullets, the menu is already available for .615" 20ga slugs from purgatory.

I would just scale the diameters of the Brooks Tru-Bore mould down from .730" diameter to .616" diameter and keep the longitudinal measurements the same, nose and base angles the same, etc. ... though a check of twist and groove diameter on the NEF-er is required first.

Who knows, maybe it is sloppy enough for .620-cal already?

Ed,
Have you got my check for the 12 Gauge barrels?

Ron Hensen (Bullet's Bullets) delivered those .729-cal/712-grain JHP cup&core "slugs" to me today, from Georgia, thanks for the tip.
I will play with those this weekend along with Rob's Care Package from Nevada.

I have so much 12GaFH stuff yet to do, the 20GaFP will have to take a number and have a seat. Sumbuddy who want hurry-up feel free develop now please.

Barrels shipped out today.Are you doing RG's slugs
in brass cases. If in used plastic 3" or 3.5" works
best in used cases with good hard regular 6 point
or 8 point crimp. With center of crimp right
on the hollowpoint of the slug.

Many guys are getting NEF 20 gauges with 3.5" chambers
and heavy bbl,and using brass RMC 3.5" cases. Gives
them about the same as a 600NE. Ed

Ed,
Thanks, for the barrels, and for the "RG-Slug" loading pointers. I can try all that, got the stuff to do it.
I see I am behind the times on the Hastings 20Ga 3.5", and RMC 3.5" 20Ga!
It has all been done, ready for the picking.

Hastings makes their replacement 20Ga slug barrels as fully rifled with 1:24" twist.
They advertize 20Ga 3.5" slug diameter as .615", 410-grain at 2000 fps with BC .140:

www.hastingsammunition.com

As usual, the RMC site does not show the latest brass products, including the 3.5" 12Ga, and 20Ga 3.5" too you say?

www.rockymountaincartridge.com

I assume the NEF 20Ga Ultra Slug Deluxe is 1:24" twist and .615" bore. Hastings does convert them for their 3.5" 20Ga ammo.

I think NEF buys Hastings 3.5" chambered heavy
barrels and fits them and sell as a factory
item. That is reson I have not made a 20ga FH
as other guys and NEF/Hastings has done it.
The Hastings plastic case loads are fairly
hot as you can see by the specs you have,
but guys loading RMC 3.5" cases are getting
same speed with much heavier slugs.Ed

Guys-Sorry but the 12ga FH SO FAR OUTRUNS
THE 20 ga its not even funny, why bother? Just to beat .600NE loads? ho Hum! Good idea but not impressive enough! back to 12 gaFH. If recoil bothers folks shoot aluminum Darwins-Rob

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
Guys-Sorry but the 12ga FH SO FAR OUTRUNS
THE 20 ga its not even funny, why bother? Just to beat .600NE loads? ho Hum! Good idea but not impressive enough! back to 12 gaFH. If recoil bothers folks shoot aluminum Darwins-Rob

Yup, as you were.

12GaFH: What is the longest aluminum varmint bullet that will stabilize in a 1:35" twist at 3000 fps?

With nice full-case of what powder to do this?

RIP- Dont know. I'm going to make some of my Nice boat tail bullets this weekend and see if they stabilize. I used 1:22 twist on my Borchard and they stabilized in that just fine. The recoil with 240 gr bullets was pretty light and it could be shot off a bench easily, although the bench had better not be made of a flamable substance! The brake blast is quite impressive and might set the bench on fire. Good Bye Car Hood paint for sure. NOT KIDDING on the last one!-Rob

My main man in Kentucky can install the Vais brake on my NEF-er. That should be similarly spectacular.
I will be ready for max loads soon.
Front-Stuffer deer season starts again at dawn!

quote:

Front-Stuffer deer season starts again at dawn!

Launching some .395" swaged round ball at Bambi...???

This is good stuff...please start a fresh thread with lots of photos...

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:

Launching some .395" swaged round ball at Bambi...???

'Fraid not, my .395-ballers so far are two flintlocks, which are mainly used in religious rituals. I have Rusty McGee working on a "40-cal" percussion .395-baller too. I might hunt that one when it is done. 50-cal Lyman Breakaway Mustang is my "piece" for tomorrow.

RG's bullets:
Bulletts Bullets
893 Griffin Rd. NW
Cartersville GA 30120
770-366-4846
They are beautiful .729/712-grain JHP "slugs":



Note also that Rob's Brass Darwin .729/1085-grainers are neato, as is the brass with "12GAFH Shotgun" headstamp engraved on the rims.

And my 500 Mbogo dies finally arrived.
And I gotta go deer hunting ...
When it rains, it pours.

What..?? No flintlock in the rain..??

Here is picture of my NEF 12GA FH as it is now,
A while back I got tired of short barrel and
added a foot on to it. Used breech end of left over
Savage and a sleeve. Lined up rifling and it has
same twist and number of rifling. Hard way to do
it. No need for rifling, or extra line up work.
Run many loads and it adds 150 fps with VV110,
4759, and 4227 powders. Adds about a 100 with
Blue Dot, and HS 7.

Next one will be done different and easier.
Next one will be a smoothbore add on piece of
groove diameter, 10-12 inches long, make it one
piece, 1 or 1 1/16" threads,about 1.2" diameter.
Threaded 1.5" long on original barrel, and into
add on piece, and will look like a brake and you
could put in internal brake in the end.Ed

Check this whacky device...!!

http://www.gunbroker.com/Aucti...m.asp?Item=118358601

The best way to go would have been a 24 inch heavy walled smoothbore tube with a threaded on 8 inch rifled section properly tapered internally for a paradox gun. That was actually my opriginal plan for the 12GaFH. That way you could run the pressure and velocity up and still get adequate accuracy. Requires a bullet that will swage down though. I was originally going to go with a .732 and swage down to .729.
Ed- Did you notice any changes in accuracy with the rifling line-up? Wonder what recovered bullets look like? I think we may be better off keeping the 24 inch barrel and strengthening the action with a top lock, then burning faster powders at higher pressures. Personally, I like the handi-nature of the NEF just as it is.
ED- Since RIP needs to fireform his cases, would you repeat for him your process for blowing the cases out to full diameter? I'm getting better results but still have cases fail even after partial expansion.-Rob

Ed,
Is this the approved case forming technique?

quote:

Originally posted by hubel458:
I use 180gr of 7383 surplus. I have lots
of it and rest is farina up past
shoulder to neck. Then I use a playdough
plug packed tight, filling the neck.
I use same on my 700 cases too. Then run
in expander to finish and ready for first
bullet.The expander isn't a mouth belling
type, but straightens and forms the
mouth perfectly to the top half
of the case.Ed

What commercial powder charge is similar to 180 grains of 7383? I'd have to look that one up.

No luck with the whitetail in the woods this AM.
Would have had better whitetail action in bed, but I have the rest of this weekend and next to get some whitetail action in the woods.

Came home for lunch and got delivery of the barrels from Ed. The 1.36"-shanked one is already threaded for something (edit: Mossy 695, noted), and is about 1.25" at the 30" muzzle.
Guess I will try putting that on my Savage 210 Slug Warrior, cut off threads and re-thread, weight the butt, and do a NoHboHzo internal muzzle brake, chamber it for 12GaFH, and have the capability of single-shot long loads and magazine-box short loads.

The other barrel from Ed has a 1.5" shank and tapers to a "slim" muzzle of about 1.4" diameter, over 30" long. Plenty of steel to work with if I find a custom action to use.
These are PAC-NOR blanks that were rifled by Delta (Outfit in Washington State that bought out Cliff Labounty?), 1:22" twist, .729/.719 groove/bore, according to Ed.

Rob,
I did not find a screw-on 50BMG rim in my 12gaFH Care Package. I may be able to prime them with a 12Ga shellholder ... will see, but it sure would be easier to use my 50BMG priming tools, but will need to get a screw-on rim from you or make one myself.
What is the spec on those threads for the shotgun rim screw-ons?

Speaking of screwing, I gotta get back to the woods now.

There are two ways really, that I've done. One is to
use 180 gr of 7383 surplus, a filler like farina,
playdough plug in the neck, then finish with a
expander. Annealing before final expanding helps
to keep splits to a minimum, and helps get any
off center mouth from fireforming lined up with body.
Also you can expand to about .620" first, then anneal, then
fireform.I still run final expander in.The original
factory case annealing will allow expanding to .620"
with no splits and then annealing helps the rest of the
way.Some brass is more brittle, so last way may be best
If you have no 7383 any midrange stick powder will
work, like 120gr of 4064 or 4320.If they don't expand
enough add little more powder.

The 1.36" barrel is threaded for Mossy 695 bolt action.
If you had a Mossy it would be a good test gun and slug gun
for 3" plastic cases, as that is what mag holds.
That Mossy bolt action will hold anything 3" plastic
or RMC brass cases can do.

The NEF's accuracy about same as original, point of
aim 6" different. Moved sights. Peep sights, bad eyes,
three shot 3" group at 50 yds.Ed

I originally had good luck with direct fireforming LC .50BMG brass with 55gr. Bulleseye and cream of wheat but now I'm going to try a sloer powder like IMR4350 which I believe is close to 7838. RIP give it a try and let us know how you like it. -I'll try this procedure myself as I'd like to open up a few more cases.
I also just picked up a nice Zabala 10gaSXS to become the organ donor for my 12GaFH double rifle project! Man that thing is stout! I think a pair of 24 inch 12Ga rifled barrels should work out beautifully on it. I am really looking foreward to that project.-Rob

Rob-Is that like the 10ga Zabala I had,
it was called the Mercury model,and
you can monoblock in heavy 12ga barrels.
Action is real strong, with crossbolt.
I didn't have the machines to do it.
They are beautiful guns, and it is a
shame they don't come with heavy
muzzles on the barrels.Ed

quote:

Karl:
If you have anymore info on big sxs shotguns do tell

From sloshing around on all the Uk waterfowling forums(where they still use 8's) found out the following.

Most common conversions from 10 ga SXS to 8ga.

Greylag 10ga(Elderkins gunshop UK recently sold a lot of these so converted),Zabala,(not sure which model, most were in the 60's and 70's), Dakin, Aya Matador(very common but older metal) Eusebrio Arizaga, Basque and other generic spanish brands (after their dickhead president tried to amalgamate makers into 'Diarmi' and wrecked their industry)
Most still available for a few hundred on classifieds etc.

The Tonolini 8ga and CYA appear to have started life as 10ga's,(may have been built off an 8 ga sized frame originally)-the jury is still out on that. Very hard to dig up=zero hits so far.

The biggest available 10ga so far is the Spanish Armas Erbi, marketed in US as American Arms 10 ga "Turkey special" double(-1990's) 11+lbs, 26" barrels, over an inch at the muzzle.

I think the three possibilites for fun are-

10-8 ga conversion, 3.25" industrial case(which is what the Brits mostly base theirs around)- more as a talking point as the cases will only handle 2 1/2 oz or so anyway.You will have to check with Ed what he thinks the gun will handle slug wise.

Going all the way to RMC's 4.25" 8 ga brass case in one of these if the guns will handle it Some of the brits seemed to think it might. Hmm...Ed?????

Using gun as Donor for 12gafh AKA robs plan.A note is paradox and other less aggressive rifling apparently won't kill shotpatterns by the usual donut death.

Karl

Ed- Yes its the Mercury Magnum model. Its the organ donor for a pair of ER shaw 12Ga or Pac-Nor barrels rechambered to 12GaFH. I agree, it looks extremely well made and as strong as any double rifle boxlock I've seen. I would see absolutely no issues with running 36KPSI loads in this beast. Tomorrow I will be getting down to dimensioning it.-Rob

Rob- Your biggest fun will be doing the ribs.
Well as Karl mentioned above there is a whole
bunch of different brands out there that can have
heavy 12ga rifled barrels put on. And maybe
have a few redone into 8 gauges. I've seen over the
last 3 years over 500 of the heavier doubles
sold on AA and GB as I keep watch looking for
a Tonolini.Ed

Ed- I'm only 150 miles from Butch Searcy in Boron and If I get stuck I know who to call. I am excited about this project and asked the guys on the Gunsmithing and Double Gun building section on Nitroexpress for their help and advice. Yes, the ribs will be fun, but I gotta learn sometime and I will learn to do it right! -Rob

I have seen parts for the ribs on doubles
in Gunparts catalog. I wonder, students at
Trinidad need projects, maybe do a whole
bunch of these for us nuts.We'd find others
and get the bbls, if some of those guys
needed a projects. Ed

Rob,
Glad you settled on the Zabala.
Much better overall than the BSS.
Your double 12GaFH will be more potent than an H&H 700 NE, afterall, and I know H&H would not build one of those on a 12ga action.
Wish I still had the one bought from John Wall Mercantile in 1985.
You are in for some higher learning now!

Struck out on whitetail again in the rain today, even though wearing my batting gloves. I fired one shot at a moving doe at 200 yards with my 50-cal ML.
When I was wiping the rifle down this evening, I found the front scope base was loose.
Careless. Even a popgun like a 50-cal muzzleloader should have its scope bases properly secured. Next time open sights on the muzzy or bust!

Here is a second Mossberg 835 setup.
9.5 pounds with no ammo, no lead in the stock, with accessories as shown, then add
+4 rounds in the magazine
+6 rounds on the butt carrier
+4 rounds in the shorty side carrier
+1 round in the chamber ...
15 rounds of 3.5" plastic hull and 1401-grain lead Darwins:
This adds about 4 pounds, gets it up to about 13.5 pounds.
The only problem is that after each shot it kicks harder.

quote:

The only problem is that after each shot it kicks harder.

RIP- Have to agree with you the Zabala is a much stronger gun than the BSS. Id go Shoelump on it in a minute except I dont own a furnace big enough to braze the parts together. Guess its monoblock time! The Double Rifle project is a new phase for me. I think its gonna be fun!
Nice 835!-rob

quote:

Originally posted by Paul H:

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
Jeffe- It sure isn't efficient is it. It's like horsepower it takes about 500 to go 200 mph and about 1000 to go 250!-Rob

Not necessarily, my buddy Jack has been running over 300 mph on about 500 hp in Neb II and III.

http://www.yacoucci.com/

Congrats on the 12 GFH, it is truly in a class of it's own!

This may be true.

I believe the principle he was trying to get across is that for your friend to go 400 MPH would take an enormous gain in HP.
Much closer to double than a 33% increase.

Rob,
Mossy 835's ain't nice! They BAD!
I will shoot your load in my NEF-er ... even without the Vais brake, but with a 25-pound bag of shot.
Might have sped me up a bit if I had a single screw-on 50BMG rim ...otherwise I will have to make one myself or improvise a new priming technique.

Lessee, what was that thread spec?
.616"-26.7tpi ???

quote:

what was that thread spec?

Get yourself one of these RIP.....hours of entertainment awaits..

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0831128011

RIP- I'll put one in the mail! Had 75 MPH windstorm here and spent last two days re-tiling the roof. 25lb Tiles grew wings! You wont need the sandbag just hang-on and suffer!-Rob

Rob
heat treat the zabala... its huge, but its soft. you got hardness files? ... its REALLY SOFT... I even looked hard at them, as ruzt maay know, but they bend in 10ga form

Mac,
That large print Machinery's Handbook ... OOH!

Rob,
The screw-on 50BMG ring ... OOH! Thanks!

jeffe,
That is the first "soft" accusation of the Zabala 10ga SXS that I have heard, should be interesting to hear what Rob thinks of that.

And my latest discovery is that a 20-gauge MEC Super Sizer (used for sizing the brass&steel bases of plastic hulls) can be used to crimp the necks of 12GaFH cases, very easily.

It will even crimp the necks of those thick brass RMC 12ga cases if you lean on it hard enough. It opens up to about .950" max and closes down to about .685" min. I bought one for about $80 at the local mercantile.

quote:

That large print Machinery's Handbook ... OOH!

Yeah...well my 20/15 x 20/15 eyes still need some sort of extraocular device to read the LARGE print...that's how much info is packed into that reference. That's the latest edition as well.