Paz- I think you'll be just fine with a 3" version. Maybe 3.25 would also work in the Greener. -Rob

Rob - any reason you never had HH run a batch of cases for this project and bring it mainstream? Has some serious potential - could even use the same blanks and basic tooling from the 700.

H&H has done the 12 bore paradox like that beauty in my avatar. If they beefed up the gun they could sell it as a 12 bore that can do all the things the Paradox can. It might be quicker to get Bailey Bradshaw to make a 12 bore falling block double.

I just got one question...

When is the 12 ga FH going to go into production or at least on a buildable sacale for us normal folk? Brass, dies and a smith to build us one? Would be a fn rifle to have around for the cocky friends who swear up and down there 30-06 is the baddest thing on the planet. I dont think handing them a 458 or 500 rifle cartridge would be fare, where as handing them a 12 ga and say shoot this one would be hella funny.

quote:

fella cast me some 10 and 8ga hard alloy lead slugs.
10 ga 1050 gr, 8ga 1320gr, fullbore, have large concave
in the base. Should need little more hollow in the base
for longer range accuracy. Just hard alloy, not heat
treated. Nice design, one wide groove, for lube if needed.
Fired one in NEF 8ga below, with heavy 3.3" plastic kiln case,
1700 fps, 9000 ft lbs energy. Entered backstop straight
at 40 ft.Have pics of the new slugs soon.
The new blue BPI 12ga sabots are out now.Ed

Ed,

For the 10 ga to 8 ga conversion is there any difference between H&R or NEF...

I'm pretty sure H&R bought them out...

H&R's website only listed two models -- Turkey or Waterfoul...

I'm assuming to go with Waterfoul model as there is no screw in choke tube???

I also assume that all models come with heavy walled bbl???

Gonna try to get my FFL to order one soon...

Thanks

Matt

so guy's

a decent starting load for the 3", im having some bullets coming soon at around 650 grains and the gun can handle +p 3" loads.

im hoping to get 1800-2000 fps, where should i be starting ?

best

peter

H&R, and NEF same thing. The heavy barreled 10ga guns you
should use is the bull barrels with the screw in chokes.
Those are in 24 and 32 inch models.. We leave out the
chokes and use end section for an internal brake with
ports in the top. I show it in thread earlier.
They make afull choked 28" model that to use you
can cut 4-6" off back to where it is heavy.One
guy is going that route.

Peter- For that bullet weight you can use 85gr IMR 4759
VV110, or IMR 4227. If they extract easy go up a little.
We lab tested 90gr of 4759 with 730 gr slug and we
had magnum shotgun pressures of 14,700 psi.No cases sticking.
In shotgun powder you can start with 55 gr of
Alliant Steel. Ed

quote:

Originally posted by hubel458:
Peter- For that bullet weight you can use 85gr IMR 4759
VV110, or IMR 4227. If they extract easy go up a little.
We lab tested 90gr of 4759 with 730 gr slug and we
had magnum shotgun pressures of 14,700 psi.No cases sticking.
In shotgun powder you can start with 55 gr of
Alliant Steel. Ed

thank you Ed

what speed did you get out of your 90 grain test load ?

best

peter

1930 fps in 30" test gun.
3" plastic, roll crimp.Ed

thank you ed

that sounds just like the load i need.

i will report back, as soon as i have some brass flying down range.

best

peter

Comparison of slug type and speed for accuracy.
Comparing better 12ga slugs for rifled and smooth.

The US-S 570gr slug, with
locked on base does 2-3" groups at 50 yds
and about 9" at 100yds in heavy barrel.
At 2000 fps in smooth bore.

Now a Dixie 600gr slug in rifled barrel at 1300,
2-3" at 50yds- about 9" at 100yds;
BUT Dixie at 2000 2-3" at 50 yds and 6" at 100 yds.
It seems that slower slugs in rifled barrels losing velocity
gets below the speed of sound at 100 yds which
affects accuracy. Of course super heavy bullets, like
12-1500gr, make it harder to start out fast
enough to be supsonic at longer ranges.


This accounts for the guys info I posted earlier about his
high speed in rifled 20ga killing deer at 160 yds.
And holding tighter groups at longer ranges.
He kept velocity above the speed of sound
further down range......Ed

When I made the 16ga FH from BMG cases, I had
cases partly swaged and worked down and did
the following. I'm always asked if I can do a
bottleneck case.. So I expanded a swaged and
worked down case to .585" bore and we now
have the 585 Hubel Super Magnum. Case shortened
to 3.7", base .770", shoulder .720". It has a
good taper like the Gibbs.Case has a
look of a scaled up Gibbs which is in the
picture for comparison and setting one up in
an Enfield with added lugs like I did for
my 585H 3.25. Holds over 240 gr ball powder,
get over 16,000 ft lbs if you want.
This will be my only bottleneck case.
And if it has the sides straight with
blown out shoulders it is 585HSM IMP.
In picture a Gibbs for comparison.ED

Ed, I think it would be great as a 3" or 3.2" case necked to 577 or 600.
Looks like quite a monster.

I can get it to feed from a Stiller, PH, etc actions.

I found some 4bore plastic cases, 4 inches long, red
colored, looking like an oversize 12ga Activ case, They are all
plastic without a steel insert in the base like Activ cases
have. No markings. I understand they are Fiocchi.
They are the size for the 4bores that are about
.950 inch bore. They are suitable for shot loads of moderate
pressures. Guys loading them say they stretch out after
a few loads. And they use about 3 oz shot.
I will test them with a light buckshot loads
of nine 45cal buckshot, 140 grains each.
Total 1260gr, a little less than three ounces.
In picture are plastic cases with brass ones and 3.3" 8ga.
The base of case will be shimmed with strong wide tape to
fit our chamber, cutting down on the stretching.Ed

I have a few 8 bores and many loads developed. i have my round ball load winchester clear plastic load with blue dot .845 bore went from 1400fps and tested psi all the way up to 1850fps.
my conical is a 1455gn round nose going 1400fps with a non canister factory powder.

Do you use the WIN clear plastic industrial case.
And do you swage it down like ours?
Do you use the primer that comes with the case,
and how many reloads per case?And what powder
and about what speed is the powder? Ed

Picking up NEF 10 Gauge Saturday...

Got a bunch of used Rem 8 gauge hulls...

Need to talk to you sometime Ed about what I need for reloading...

I use win clear cases. for my rifle i use them one time, we made a hollywood press with all the dies for brass and sizing the win case and bullet sizing. my round ball i use shotgun wad with blue dot it is the most accurate not the card and fiber . for the big conicle i use a non canister powder that is much slower with a plastic gas seal and nitro cards. i will get the number but most people cannot get it. i presure test all my loads for psi, sd and velocity. in a double 20fps can make a big dif.

those plastic red ones are from alen meyers in england or from ean from clay and game. we have an 8ga reloding manual out at precision reloading. has a few of my early loads.

Ed, I am of the opinion that you have WAY TOO MUCH FUN!!!

Shot 4 ga plastic case with 7- 140 gr balls, 980gr total
1800 fps. Used duplex load- Blue Dot 100gr, - Re17 150gr.
A card and couple nitro wads under load and card over, glue gunned
the card in. Shot loadedin two rows of 3 and 7th on bottom
in recess in the middle of top wad. Red plastic case ok some
expansion. Just about the limit for an all plastic case.

Here is picture 0f 585HSM and some other cases.
Gonna test a few in trusty ole Enfield I shot
the 700H 3.25 in with extra rear lugs. Change barrel
lengthen port.It won't do maximum real hotrod
loads like when I put it in PH later, but it'll
outrun trex.2nd pic... ED

Here is pic of a bunch of 585 bullets, hard cast,
sized and lubed. Take super high speeds ok.



Here is picture of the 3.5" 20ga brass case in
FBW falling block. Nice cases by RMC.Shotgun primer.
Using 395 gr sabot get over 2700 fps. 600gr
over 2200. Cases take many reloads with
minimum sizing. One fired 8 times, still good
and the slower powders get the velocity
without the hard shock to cases, compared to
fast shotgun powders. And the hotrod Hastings
factory loads work in the gun also.

Guy got new design 8 and 10 ga slugs with
bigger hollow in the base. 1100gr for 8 and
900gr for 10. More accurate in smooth bores.
Will let everyone know when he is ready to
make a few for shooters.Ed

I like singleshot break actions. I found another brand that will work
to make heavy barrel 12 and 20 ga FH. By monoblocking in heavy
barrels. It is the CBC Model SB. It has stock mounted like more
expensive doubles and O/U. And nice shaped pistol grip stock.
They have the nice stylish look like the Win 37 and Stevens 94.
But they are heavier built, just need heavy barrel.
I going to do a couple by monoblocking in heavy barrels, one 20ga
and one my 585 HE like I did in the NEF.And they are 50 to 100 bucks.

That action is a 1/8 inch wider than NEF, big barrel breach diameter
like NEF 10/12 gauges. The bearing surfaces on the pivot is .300"
wider, and pivot block is 1/4" wider. Pivot pin is 1/10" bigger.
The action is a 1/2 inch taller, and extra diameter at breach end.
In fact you could build a real hairy 8ga on its wider action, with
a heavy barrel and a new pivot block welded on.Ed

Ed- do you have a picture of that action?-Rob

No not done yet here, but there are pics on Gunbroker.
Just type in CBC in shotgun section. I'll do a picture soon.
This action is perfect to monoblock in a 20ga thick
barrel, with a taper to about 1 inch at the muzzle.30" long.
More info on doing 20ga 3.5" in break actions. Nice
to do them in falling blocks, but they aren't available
in large numbers and if they are special made, no
decent price. FBW were priced decent but there aren't any.
So other ways-One choice, heavy barrel NEF 20ga,
lengthen chamber, but barrels are too short for proper
burning of large loads. Longer barrel better and helps
with recoil. And in a break action looks better to me.
The wider CBC pivot block is brazed on the full width of the arc
which is as strong or stronger as the NEF, with narrow pivot,
and narrow welds on the sides, and no weld or brazing in the middle.
So it'll hold 25-30k loads in 20ga RMC brass.
Brass cases from RMC, 7 bucks, decent price compared to
600NE brass at twice that. Many guys want 20s along with
the bigger bores. So you put a heavy barrel in a gun like the CBC
which is low cost and put extra toward the barrel.
Which is why I started research after getting a CBC,in a trade,
as it is the perfect gun for the 20ga added heavy barrel.
Or in NEF, a little more money. Or other singles, if heavy enough.
And you still fire factory 3-3.5" slug loads. And 3.5" brass
20ga will do same as 600NE factory loads, in a gun at
1/20 the price. That is reason we are looking at monoblocking
20ga barrels to make heavy strong guns, that can
get great velocities, less cost.. Like 600gr to 2200 or more.
Added heavy barrels in right actions will hold all the
pressure the RMC brass operates at. And remember one
experimenter has 20ga kills at 160 and 230 yds on deer.ED

More info on 10 and 8 gauge slugs. The guy got some
made with deep hollowbase, 10ga 900gr, 8ga 1100gr.
He will make them for a buck each.
Bob Bigando in AZ. (bobiano at yahoo.com)
Good price as they are nice hard shiny slugs.
For seals for 10 and 8 gauge you can get regular
card seals and nitro fiber wads, but plastic seals
will do better, about a 100 fps in the faster loads.
Plastic seals for 10 ga are at BPI, called - X10X.
For 8ga I cut bottom seal part off of the 8ga wadcup
that BPI has. For extended accuracy in smooth bores
you can screw the seals on to the slugs and that
will make the overall projectile more front heavy.
Better yet screw on the nitro fiber wads.
Use screwed on seal slugs in loads with slower RE17, that fills
case so no fiber wads are need.Just seal and slug.ED

I talked about these 12ga jacketed full bore slugs earlier,
shown below. Well now BPI has something similiar in
their new catalog. We have tested some and one guy
got a 3 shot group that is nearly touching at 50 yds
in a scoped NEF Ultra slug gun. They can go real fast in
our 3.5 RMC or our real long case.They are hollowpoint
and fairly streamlined.I fill them with plastic glue for
better streamlining.Fullbore and no sabots needed.
Relatively light weight, to lessen recoil.Ed

The 12ga Brenekke slugs with locked on base and the USS-S
slugs I test have led to other combinations that I've put
together using different slugs and wads. The object is
60 yd accurate, economical slugs for reloading smoothbores
that in the reloading process we can get more power also.
Like the Lyman cast slugs in thickwall 10ga steel wads,
with the slug glued in and wad cut off even with top of slug.
Then with wad cut even, you load and can rollcrimp perfect.
It makes a real nose heavy combination that is as accurate
in smoothbores, as the expensive 10ga foster style slugs.
Another one is the hollowbase 577 soft lead slugs that Dixie
sells, I put in a thickwall 16ga wad that BPI has. I glue it in
using Goop, a thick glue that hardwares sell. Epoxy works.
Another one is 20ga ga thickwall wad with 54 cal hollowbase
soft lead slugs. All these and others can be loaded for a fifth of
factory for smoothbores, and be as accurate as foster slugs.
And our slow powder loads seal good with wadcups.
Representative one in middlle, 10ga.Slug glued in tight.Ed

Forgive me for not reading all of the previous 70 pages of this post before asking my question, but I am intrigued with the 12GFH and must ask:
Can I build one on my NEF 10ga Turkey Gun?

Might even be interested in 20GFH if not 12.

Thanks for not roasting me (I hope.)

Get a 12ga Nef with a rifled barrel and it's easy to convert. Just send me the barrel and some money. -Rob

Checking Gunbroker right now.
Thanks, Rob.
No luck at GB, but found one on GA with 24" barrel.
Is that OK?

SemperfiHunter- That sounds like the std NEF. All you need to do is remove the barrel and ship it off. PM me for details. If you want FL 12GaFH cases, I have them as well as some machined bullets. The NEF loads will IMPRESS you. They are both accurate and hit around 8000ft/lbs. Lots of fun from a very inexpensive gun.-Rob

With all the interest in the 12GaFH and its varients, I wonder if the time isn't right to approach a major firearms company and discuss the merits of a commercial version. I would think that for well under $1000 a commercial 12GaFH Rifle could be produced that would be a profitable and valuable asset. Which maker do you think might be the best to approach?-Rob

Hubel probe make one solid in copper, turned your bullet wit's CNC.

Rob has the CNC and makes the solid
12ga bullets and uses CNC to make
rims and put them on the long cases.Ed

Guys,

Any chances the 12gaFH would work in Browning's new A-bolt 12ga?

How thick is the barrel at the muzzle? -Rob

http://www.browning.com/produc...lag_=026B&catalog_=B

Doesn't really say on the page. However I did just note its a 3" chamber, not a 3.5" Not sure if that makes a difference or not. But man if it worked how nifty would that be??

The Abolts I've seen in pictures don't look
as if they'd have the room to lengthen
out for our long case, like we've done with
Savage. If the Browning barrel is as big as
original Savage one at the muzzle, .93", then
it would handle our heavy slow powder loads
we've done in the 3" cases.Like 600gr at
18-1900 fps.Ed

Since the savage 20 gauge slug gun is a stronger action it would be interesting to make it a platform for swaged down 50 BMG cases. Make the .766" rim the 20 gauge the same as the casehead (or a tad more) a basis to make a long straight .729 or a shorter straight 700 or bottlenecked to 620, 615 with the same barrel or 577.
With the higher pressure you might be able to get close to 600 nitro power magazine fed from the original barrel. Is there anything wrong with this idea other than normal wildcat stuff?

With the thick brass it might be possible to do a 2" short straight version for magazine feed with .700' bullets just by swaging down and topping with .700" bullets.