12 Gauge from hell subsonic?

Seems to me the 12 gauge FH shorty could be a great platform for a high BC subsonic round.

Thinking of a streamline 1000 grain plus forward part of the projectile made of copper or brass with a back 2/3rds of the bullet be an aluminum bore rider boat tail driving band design. No wads needed and would be incredibly forward heavy for stable flight even without spin. Thinking 3 to 3.5" long projectile.

One way to make it could be to bore out one side of a piece of round 1" brass stock, insert aluminum plug and turning a streamline designed bullet or maybe a two piece screw in design where you could use with or without the back aluminum part.

This thread has been floating around for over 4 years. I'm guessing that it'll live forever on the internet.

quote:

Originally posted by Vol717:
This thread has been floating around for over 4 years. I'm guessing that it'll live forever on the internet.

SO BE IT!!! It has many followers!!!

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
The measured cases had 150 grains capacity at 2" length so hopefully the computations you can make will reflect that. Thanks Capo!

quote:

Originally posted by hubel458:
I just shortened a BMG case to 2" for info
for Boomie. It holds 150gr water.
With a Henson jkt 730 slug in it it is 2.65" overall.
With a blunter Dixie 600 slug 2.45" overall length.
If you doing blunt Dixie 600gr slugs it holds 110gr powder.
If doing 1000gr slugs you'd have room for 85-90gr,
so your velocity would be 14-1500 or so, at 45k psi. Ed

Boomy,
I've adjusted about everything that can be adjusted for this cartridge in QD and can't get the case below 171.5gr Overflow Capacity...which unfortunately is the data that QL will also use. You’ll have to project from Ed’s figures as they are correct for this case.
Also, 1800fps with an S&H 1000gr SHARRC from this case is not going to happen at 45Kpsi…unless you can find some lighter weight thinner wall 50 BMG cases to use to up the Overflow Capacity to near 180grs.

If you use the bmg cases with thin bases and
small radius corners you would get about
the capacity that the program says it is,
but most brands of cases are heavy like
the WCC and Lake City ones I have here
Some who pushed/folded belts to make 700s,a few
years ago on cases I saw, used thin ones to be
able to do it, but heavier lasts a lot more reloads.
And safer.ED

With the shortening of the case those small radius BMG cases could come in handy. Be it 170 or 150 grains case capacity A 1000 grain FN @ 1,600 to 1,800 FPS hard cast or solid I think you would need a lengthwise shot on an elephant to stop it. Ed, do you have a small radius case that you can measure? The 2" "Lil' Demon" will be about max recoil most could shoot well in a nominal weight gun anyway.

I only had one small radius case and I sectioned
it so I can't measure capacity on it.. If your using
blunt nose slugs of mediun weight the case could
be 2.2" and still be under the overall length
you want.Ed

Here is pic of 2.0" cases with 12ga rims on.
They have RG's jkt slug in them.
Also a 2.2" for using blunt slugs in keeping
length under 2.65" and getting better case
capacity. Ed

Thanks for posting the pics!
Lol they look like pistol carts but have the capacity of the 460 Wby and be a b17<# to shoot lol
I guess the 2.2" will be more versatile.
These stubby demons should be a hoot to shoot.

Big and small about putting falling blocks in one piece
thumbhole stocks. First one was the 4bore, the big one in
picture and after it was done I got a FBW falling block
and soon figured out I could do the same with it.
It is chambered in my 585HE cartridge.
You know I built the 4bore, from blocks of steel.
The FBW is the Model L, and I'm doing second one
in 3.5" 20ga, to use brass and plastic cases.Ed

Ed
Are you going to test the stubbie demons for velocity?

Yes I checked it in NEF with 730 gr jkt
at about 30,000 psi, and got 1900.
Would do 1600 plus with 1000gr.Ed

Thanks for all your R&D work Ed Seems the Savage 210 will be the best platform for the stubbie with it's ability to go to higher pressure. Well it is the brass thickness that makes this idea work and being that 2.2" might work best in the mag tech dies you were talking about and the thickness should work fine maybe 2.2" should be a better length For a shortie. Now question is how fast will a sabot fly with a 500 grain bullet for NEF rifles and the Savage 210

Here is picture of a bolt action a fella on Practical
Machinist built for an 8ga. 4 rear bolt lugs.Singleshot.
He used section of 20mm barrel for barrel.. Real nice.
Idea would do for 10 and 12ga also I think.
Has an aimpoint sight. Ed

Cool!
What would he charge for these?

I think he just did it for himself,
I'll ask for sure.Ed

Here is picture of the fella firing his bolt
action 8ga that he made. He uses the
super strong, heavy duty, plastic cases
like we are using in the ones we made by
boring out NEFs to 8ga.Ed

quote:

boring out NEFs to 8ga.Ed

Ed,

When is that deal being put together???

We are working on it now, getting
guys lined up, and help finding heavy barrel
NEF 10ga guns and the tooling
being setup.ED

Some have asked if the guy who made above
bolt action 8ga does them for others, no he only
did one for himself, and isn't a manufacturer.

Here is picture of a cast .504" slug BPI 12ga sabot
a guy made a few for me and it has good accuracy with
our slower powder loads, with the sabot working ok.
Slug is 440 gr and hard alloy cast with decent
meplat for good penetration.But it isn't too blunt
so it has good longer range capabilities when you
get the speed behind it. Soon be the deer season and
guys are still hunting for their ideal 12ga sabot/slug
setup for loading their own.BPI is supposed to have
a new sabot this year..Ed

Looks like a better version of the old Maadi Griffin .50BMG but with a decent bolt. Good idea using the AR-15 trigger too. Wonder if there are better pics of the locking lugs. The Maadi receive I made had two 1" thick locking lugs built in but used a shell holder for the bolt. Easy to convert to 4Ga or even 2Bore.-Rob

From medium bores technology thread.
What possible use could a 200+ grain white hot aluminum slug be used for? Flare gun? Catching cars on fire? Burning an enemy from the inside out?

Add a layer of phosphorous on top of the gunpowder?

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:

quote:

Originally posted by Brando:
Speaking from my point of view, I will say that weapon development is still forward moving. You would not believe what the military plays with trying to stumble into a new age military weapon that would blow the world away.

1 I can actually talk about is a Phosphurus(Spelling?) based propellant, and Aluminum projectiles. I will tell you this dont not work well for long range accuracy, the propellant burns too hot and melts the projectile resulting is a rifle shooting white hot aluminums buck shot.

That could overcome the ban on the use of white phos !!!

Ouch is all I can say !!!

Well that could come in handy with the 12 GFH and the aluminum slugs!!!

How close are the case demensions between the 12 GA.FH and the .729 "Jongmans"? (sp?)

Both have same base size. Jongmans has rim same as
base, the original bmg rim. 12ga has rim .080"
bigger and straight sides. Jongmans has slight shoulder
and no taper. Both take .729" slugs.Ed

Have had a bunch of different guys shooting
the 4bore with light 11,000 ft lb loads.
All say it is a tremendous thrill.
Simply the greatest shooting ever.

So many have opinions on what is a real big bore.
I think really big starts at .585........
So in that vein I have made the 585 Hubel
Super Magnum, 585 HSE, giving a nod to necked
cases.Also can make the 620 HSE for 600 guys.
This is my only wildcat base case with a neck.
Base and rim are .750", shoulder is .720".
and case is 3.7" long. Power in the range of
14,000 to 17,000 ft lbs. Can be used single shot
in the PH, the Savage 210, the Enfield.
Picture of the case later.Ed

A 3.25" 600 version rebated to .700" might be fun for a single stack on the GMA action. Kind of a 600 version of the Nyati or unrebated to be like a larger 577 T Rex. 600 Super Nyati and 600 Super Rex.

Well after being stuffed around for the last 6 months by the Australian importer for the H&Rs i have bit the bullet today and bought a W.W.Greener GP Martini shotgun to build my 12GFH.

Maybe won't be able to run the full length 12GFH case but at least it will get me started.

Plan to use a Pac Nor barrel if i can get one out of the states with all the new laws, may have to call on one of you fine gentlemen to help me out .

Paz

Paz- Is that that Greener/ Martini a 14 Ga? I worked on one of those action a few years ago. It definstely has possibilities with the 12GaFH short 3" case. I had to plug some weird holes in the bolt face as I remember. I have always wondered how they made the cut in the back of that receiver that the bolt pivots on. Interesting action with possibilities.-Rob

Rob, yes i believe one and the same.

Theres a few different ones about but here in Aus we mainly see them as a single shot 12g.

A couple have already been built with rifled barrels, plus they are able to have the barrel screwed out easily, so switch barrel rifled/smoothbore coming up .

One built here on Nitro Express forum

Paz

Its definitely stout enough for a 3" 12GafH. Cound not get a Full length one to fit though. I bought a spare 12Ga rifled barrel for it but never finished the project as my Borchardt action was completed at the same time and I put more effort into it. Don't remember offhand what the action threads were either. I've always liked the looks of those Greener/Martini actions though.I've seen some beautiful guns built on them.-Rob

Rob, what differences are there in the reamers you use to chamber these over a standard 12g smooth bore reamer?

Obviously the pilot would be different, anything else?

I see PT&G list a rifled reamer and a smooth bore reamer.

Regards.
Paz

A fella cast me some 10 and 8ga hard alloy lead slugs.
10 ga 1050 gr, 8ga 1320gr, fullbore, have large concave
in the base. Should need little more hollow in the base
for longer range accuracy. Just hard alloy, not heat
treated. Nice design, one wide groove, for lube if needed.
Fired one in NEF 8ga below, with heavy 3.3" plastic kiln case,
1700 fps, 9000 ft lbs energy. Entered backstop straight
at 40 ft.Have pics of the new slugs soon.
The new blue BPI 12ga sabots are out now.Ed

It seems Bailey Bradshaw (the guy who made the Damascus 22 Hornet double) can make a falling block for the 50 BMG so that means 12gfh, 700 NE on down. He made a falling block as seen in the single shot board but it would be scaled up. His falling block action is reasonably priced at $1,500 for 06 size casehead. That thread is a great read.

Boomie-Do you have a link to his action? -Rob

http://forums.accuratereloadin...9421043/m/6661074421

The thread is a great read and here is one of the pics of the finished product.



He just finished the first prototype but has all the code for his CNC. He said the 50BMG size action would be about $1,800. The great thing is the falling block is great for looong carts and if you chamber your own gun no big brother.

Boomie- yes thats a very nice action and I've seen his work before. He definitely has the skills needed. I suspect though that the design will need to be seriously scaled up for a .50BMG class cartridge and he should really Proof that action once .50BMG land is reached. Al STORY proofed his Borchardts before he began selling them. The biggest issue is the hammer spring on a .50BMG is probably 3X that of a std action. The extractor and ejector also need to be up to the task.-Rob

Paz- My reamer was designed to produce a chamber that would just allow a std 12Ga 2 3/4 inch shell to chamber. I calculated the degree of taper over the length of the case to allow for this. You want as much taper as possible to facilitate easy extraction of the case. Thats why my reamer is different than most everyone elses. Iterestingly when I use my reamer to rechamber factory guns like the NEF, they clean up pretty good, although fired cases wont chamber in my Borchardt. I've made special dies to eliminate this issue.-Rob

Yes I chambered my Savage for the 12GA FH case same way as Rob.
We put as much taper as we could, still allowing
2.75' plastic case to fit. That allowed the 12GA FH case
with its thinnner mouth to have tighter fit at the mouth
and cut down the case expansion and shrinking when
fired and resized. Plastic cases and MRC cases built
to plastic sidewall specs are straighter sides, so
their reamers are different than Rob's designed minimum ones.Ed

Yep,
The "12 Gauge From Hell 3.85-inch" reamer from Dave Kiff is required to use RMC 3.85" brass.
It is identical to the standard SAAMI 12Ga 3.5" reamer, just extended to 3.85" chamber.
The neck diameters and wall thickness of the RMC brass is greater than that of the Nohbozo Brass.
Standard 12 Ga wads/cups/gas-seals work well in the RMC brass, same as with 2.75"-3.5" plastic hulls.

Use Rob and Ed's reamer if you are using the brass made from 50BMG cases.

Thanks Rob and Ed.

I have asked PT&G to send me drawings of their 3" 12g smoothbore and rifled reamer to see what the differences are for my Greener build.

I don't think i will be able to get a case much more than 3" long into it due to the curved scallop of the greener action block.

My plan was to build this and then use your 50bmg/12g case but only at 3" long, do you guys see any problems with that?

Paz

P.S. alright just re-read RIP's post again and saw a bit of vital info he mentioned for me at the bottom , where could i get a 3" reamer in your specs guys?