first this Khan was a 3.5" to start with and it
handles a 570 gr USS-S 12ga slug in 3.5" plastic case
over 2200. So it will handle bolt thrust, better than
most guns where the barrel is in an extension in
the reciever, and locks in that extension.
I think it is stronger than an 870 pump.
Reason is its barrel extension is twice as long and
its big heavy locking lug pivots from the front
up into locking recess.So the more force the better
it locks.The 870 and some others the lug pivots from
the back. Mossy 835 with heavy slug barrel as well as an
870 with heavy slug barrel are good guns. Get
barrels pinned in recievers and they get more
accurate.I'd keep a 12ga brass case in them at
23,000, like we do in NEF.
I going to run the 585 at 40-45k in Khan
which is same bolt thrust as 12ga at half the psi.
It'll still get your attention.Ed

If this sounds stupid, please forgive me. I am a novice.
Has anyone ever taken the brass 12 ga. cases and necked them down to 20ga. or even .585???
You have to keep the pressures down anyway in the RMC cases, so why not a 31/2 inch shotgun with a wildcat brass necked down cartridge?
Save on some bolt work anyway.

Just a thought
John

The thin drawn brass cases have been necked down
like the 70-150 is a necked 12ga brass case.
but necking down a thick RMC case wouldn't
be easy. necking down our original 12ga fH
case would do, but we made it by necking up
bmg. You could put the 12ga rim on bmg brass and not expand it and have a rimmed 50 cal.ED

You can easily fireform .50 BMG brass set up with a threaded rim to .585, .600 or .700. That brass can take 50 KPSi easily. In fact that would be asier than blowing it out to .729 for the 12gaFH.-Rob

And for a 585 one I made here I just run in an expander
keeping the same taper and I have full length 585 RHE.
"Rimmed HE". Might do something with it down the line
if I can find a box full of Savage 210 actions.ED

I scrounged a barrel extension for my Benelli Super Nova and want to build a barrel specifically for heavy slugs in plastic 3 1'2" cases, loaded to around 15-16KPSI. I am thinking the 730 grain Dixie slugs would be a good fit. I want a long 30" barrel, so I believe ER Shaw is out as an option. Pac-nor only lists a 1 in 20 twist, which seems awfully fast. Does anyone have a recommendation for a barrel manufacturer and an ideal twist rate for this combination?

The 1 to 20 twist is what Rob and I got
and they work ok.Pacnor does great work.Ed

I was noticing that the 50BMG has about the same rim diameter as a 20 ga.
So would it be possible to cut a 50BMG case off at the shoulder, expand out to cylinder and form a new shoulder at about the 2.2 inch mark as you neck down to what ever you need for the .585 bullet?
I would say a 20ga bullet but I'm not sure if you would have enough shoulder for head space.
No more messing with rims and a shoulder to head space off of.

Like I said, I'm a novice so if I'm totally stupid then tell me.

John

quote:

Originally posted by Phatman:
I was noticing that the 50BMG has about the same rim diameter as a 20 ga.
So would it be possible to cut a 50BMG case off at the shoulder, expand out to cylinder and form a new shoulder at about the 2.2 inch mark as you neck down to what ever you need for the .585 bullet?
I would say a 20ga bullet but I'm not sure if you would have enough shoulder for head space.
No more messing with rims and a shoulder to head space off of.

Like I said, I'm a novice so if I'm totally stupid then tell me.

John

The base of a 50 BMG is .804". Per http://hallowellco.com/bore_size_chart.htm

a 20 ga. is .615" diameteter. NO HEADSPACE PROBLEM loading such a bullet di-

ameter into 50 BMG brass and making a shoulder to create a GIANT looking ver-

sion of a 30-06 so to speak. http://www.sskindustries.com/14_5.htm has loaded

the .585 bullet into the 50 BMG and has received the U.S. Gov't NON-DD status,

full length 50 BMG brass was used IIRC.

If you was going to take any bmg case
and make a shorter 585" 0r 620"(20ga) or 660"(16ga),
you just use a 3" long bmg spotter case and
expand it out to your caliber you want.It is a
case that is 2.1" to the shoulder.Ed

Here is a picture of my super presses on
the heavy bench. with the case spinner/lathe
on the back of the bench. Blue one is a Walnut
Hill and the green is beefed up Ammomaster.
Both are brace so I can lean on them.Bench is
braced to wall supports and benches behind.

You can see the expanders laid out on the press
brace arms and a variety of large cases and large
dies and some of parts I work with.On the right is a
stack of my 585HE dies in the die boxes.Ed

The thought hit me:
Everyone likes a pump or semi shotgun
The rims on the 12gaFH are a bit of a pain for the average guy.
So if you could use the 50BMG case rim as is,then you would be miles ahead.
Now if it was me and I had the know how:
I would mono block a NEF 50 S&W barrel into a Rem 870 and use short 50 BMG or M48 Spotter cases with the under .50 bullets.

Sort of a switch barrel .499 Phatbastard
It'll never happen, but it might be fun.

John

From Jack:
Great picture Ed! Do you note any difficulties or hiccups with either of those presses?

quote:

Originally posted by hubel458:

They work great and anchoring the tops
means I can really get the power out of
them without them twisting on the bench,
where they are bolted.And the linkage changes
I have on the green gets the same power as the
blue one. Power to work the 20mm cases. Ed

quote:

Originally posted by hubel458:
They work great and anchoring the tops
means I can really get the power out of
them without them twisting on the bench,
where they are bolted.And the linkage changes
I have on the green gets the same power as the
blue one. Power to work the 20mm cases. Ed

Are the "linkage changes" so costly, and difficult, for the regular guy to

do that it makes more sense to buy the WALNUT HILL Press at $395 plus

shipping? Or at http://executivegunworks.com/s...html/product294.html

get the AmmoMaster at a good price and modify it?

You got to do some cobbling, IE cutting
slot in bottom of the ram up and new
pin hole above original., and new hole
in fulcrum arm, grinding clearances,that most
wouldn't want to do, so the Walnut Hill
is still a good deal as it is, no cobbling, and
equivalent to a corbin costing more than
twice as much.Ed

Great Info there Ed, as usual!!!

Once a .50BMG case has been modified by threading and the screw on rim attached, you can easily fireform it up to any size you want ( up to .729). Its really easy. So for example if you have a .585 chamber, drop in a case loaded with 50gr of bullseye and filled with cornmeal. Point towards the sky, pull the trigger and pop out a perfectly fireformed case. Remember the Threaded rims last foreever and you only need 10 for a lifetime of shooting. The cases last 25 reloadings or more and they are cheap to replace. Its only the blown out cases that are expensive, because I have to do the fireforming.-Rob

Now might get real exciting load developement wise,
If we could make brass cases as long as the paper
one on the right. In picture is 3.5" 10ga plastic
case, our 10GA FH brass 4.05" case I made by putting
a 10ga basecup on 50cal Russian brass, and third
a 6" long 10ga bomb disposal case used to shoot
liquid/gel in to bomb packages, I think.
Anyone knows for sure let me know.ED

Ed...
Going smaller in the GFH series similar to your 499 HE could be swaging down the 416 rigby basic to say .570" to shoot the .500 Bullets. the 32 Gauge is .502" in the groove so the semi rimmed case would be a shotgun case. The rim thickness of the 32 Gauge and the Rigby are the same. The 470 is 20 thou thinner in the rim. Possible to make 32 GFH 3" on the Rigby basic case with a mini rim so a 416 Rigby bolt action with some tweaks could work. The 500 SW single shots conversions would be the easiest though obviously.

Now the 505 Gibs rim is the right diameter AND thickness so if one were so talented to swage the 505 case down 60 thou you would have a perfect 32 GFH 3.25"

32 GFF???
Hey, Its a SHOTGUN!

Just run your 499 HE reamer in another 20 thou. That saves money on a reamer

I think 505 Gibbs brass is 3.15 inch as

opposed to 3.25 inch.

Yep, just checked www.ammoguide.com

The 500 diameter would be about 36ga.
COTW says 32 ga is .526" bore.
Can't do all the work swaging
down a case, when 450 #2 brass I use
is already at .565" base with a rim
that can be used in a bolt action
if you want. With a mouth of .522" for
good taper And there is 8600 to
be had if wanted. I tested first in bolt
action in Enfield years ago when case
was .510" bore before I reduced it.
A shorter one yuo could get a 50-90, has
same base size, and call it 36ga.ED

Getting to some more 4ga/bore work.With barrel and
falling block action locked down fired off some blank
type loads to test the breach and firing pin I set up.
I fired it by hitting the back of firing pin with a rod,
as I now have get hammer and trigger setup. Firing pin
dents primers ok, breach works and headspace is ok.

For loads I have wads to take up space above powder.
Others with same 4ga case in doubles fill case about
1/6 full of Blue Dot (110gr), with 2000gr slug.

I'll use 1600 gr hollowbase slugs, with about 1/3 of a case
of IMR 4759 or 1/2 to 5/8 case of RE17, rest filled
with fiber wads.These are shotgun primer loads and I will be
using THE STRONGER PRIMERS OF KILN CASES at about same
price as BMG primers. And I have BMG primer cases also
that I will test also, once gun is finished in a few weeks.Ed

Ed, you should start marketing as "the ultimate Whale stopper"! If you read that report on that thread, it said they average 52-64 bullets per whale!

Shouldn't be too hard.Those figures were for CKS and Vepr 7.62 x 39.
Give Ed's gun a real task....battleships

Karl.

12GaFH with 2000gr bullets would be about perfect for Whales. Just as soon as one swims up the colorado river, I'll provide a IN-DEPTH report!-Rob

Fired 4bore with 760 gr light round ball with
fiber wads under it, using 150gr Blue Dot
and shotgun primer case. Just starting loads
for testing operation. Hardly no recoil,
like a heavy, beefed up blank load,
could go much higher with that light
of round ball. Will have pics of the muzzle
blast and the gun shooting from the side,
using heavier slugs in a week or so.
In Owen's 4bore double,that uses same case
size they use max of 110gr of Blue Dot
with 2000 gr slug. Ed

Can't wait for more info on this work Ed. Thanks for all the effort!

Dave at Rocky Mtn Cartridge is making the run of
20ga 3.5" brass cases right now. You need them,
call while the iron is hot as they say.
68 bucks box of ten plus shipping.
They will work great in the 20ga 3.5" along with
the 3.5" plastic Hastings slug loads I
got at auction, that I'm doing
on the FBW falling block.Ed

12 GFH 2"?
Was thinking why not a shortie FH?
At 2" the bmg brass is thick enough to be like the rocky mountain cases but run at 60K PSI instead of 25K PSI
Load out 12 gauge slugs/bullets out to 2.65" (the magazine length of the Savage 210)
This would be a good size for not having too much powder room for need of wads and filler but probably could get 6,000 FPE. Think of it as a supersize 45-70 for under 200 yard hunting but instead of shooting 400 grain .270 SD bullet @ 1650 we would be talking about a 1,000 grain .270 SD bullet @ 1650. All that with no mods to the Savage 210

What do Y'all think?

Was wondering what the best case length would be... 2", 2.1", 2.25"???

Have to measure case wall thickness to determine.

I just shortened a BMG case to 2" for info
for Boomie. It holds 150gr water.
With a Henson jkt 730 slug in it it is 2.65" overall.
With a blunter Dixie 600 slug 2.45" overall length.
If you doing blunt Dixie 600gr slugs it holds 110gr powder.
If doing 1000gr slugs you'd have room for 85-90gr,
so your velocity would be 14-1500 or so, at 45k psi.Ed

Thanks Ed! That sounds perfect Ed! More capacity than the 460 WBY so at 60K PSI that would be impressive! Testing needs to be done Taking out the BMG taper might get it to 160 grains or the same as the 500 Jeffery. That would be a hell of a lot of power from a stock 3 shot Savage 210 repeater. With Macifej 1000 grain brass solids he sells for the 12 gauge that could be a potent penetrator. Could you post a pic of the loaded cases?

quote:

Originally posted by hubel458:
I just shortened a BMG case to 2" for info
for Boomie. It holds 150gr water.
With a Henson jkt 730 slug in it it is 2.65" overall.
With a blunter Dixie 600 slug 2.45" overall length.
If you doing blunt Dixie 600gr slugs it holds 110gr powder.
If doing 1000gr slugs you'd have room for 85-90gr,
so your velocity would be 14-1500 or so, at 45k psi.Ed

Ed... You might find this guys bullets interesting... 700's and 12 gauge swaged to order.

http://www.copperheadcustomswaging.com/id5.html

That volumne is with bmg taper straightened out
so it will hold 12ga slug.
I misspoke on pressure in Savage, keep it at 45k.
I'll get pics of cases with slugs in few days.

I get jkt 700s from him now.
I got him started on 700s.Soon get more from him
I get jkt 12s from RG Henson for now..ED

Actually the Savage box magazine in plastic
stock will take case 3.1" long, just have
to do action bottom to match.........
And guys are crazy over 700s and to
expand Boomie and others ideas further...AND
SO in the tradition of gun specific cartridges(and
with bmg cases around and 700 slugs ar Copperhead Custom)
like my 585 Short HE at 2.7"(and B&M cases) headspacing
on the mouth and extractor, there is now a 2.7"
700 Short HE, with loaded length of 3.1" just for
guys putting 700 barrels on Savage 210s
like the ones we did for 700NE and my 700H 3.25".
Case holds 205 gr water and 160 gr ball powder
and at 40-45k in Savage will match factory 700NE
2000 fps loads. The case sides at mouth are .024"
thick so spacing on mouth will be solid.
And cases don't cost 20 bucks and the work
on the bottom of Savage is only couple hours.
Savage is easiest one of any to beef up firing
pin for bmg primers.Ed

There was a guy years ago( cant remember his name) who had a .50BMG case about 2" long and necked to .600. He rebated the rim to match the wby and had a two shot M98 action for it. He had a hell of a time with the cases and it never caught on.
I had a hydraulic Corbin press for awhile and made some pure lead bullets with a thin copper base( .730) swaged on. When properly lubed they would not lead rifled barrels at 1500 fps but when they hit things WOW! They would squash out to 1.5 inches sometimes!-Rob

I wonder if it will work in a Saiga 12

John

Fired the 4bore with the 760 gr round ball,
which is hard rubber coated steel ball, I
got a bunch of, thus lighter weight than lead
using 100gr of Blue Dot under 300gr RE17,
total 400gr. Hairy load, with 3500 fps, and
20,000 ft lbs. Good projectiles to check
operation and cases. Used the turned 4bore
cases of Owen's that I got a few of,
with shotgun primers, and with that light
projectile case doesn't need sizing.
I am gonna do 1200gr and 1600gr holding the
speeds to give about same energy.
I won't load heavier until I get another
stock like one I have, but that is full
width with original thick sides.
Gun is 28 lbs, 32" barrel.One piece thumbhole
stock makes all the difference as that load
handles as easy as one of our mag 10ga loads in
regular stocked NEF.ED

Ed... So maybe a 2" and a 2.5" hellians 12 gauge.
I like the 2" the most for brass thickness and universal utility of a 2" version.
Ed do you still have a 12 GFH you can test them on?
A Siaga full of these 2" demons would be interesting? 12 GFH 2" Demon... I like it

Yes I have 12GA FHs to test in.
If needed testing get me some
of cases Rob makes. All ones I have now are the
RMC and the ones I put 12ga Basecups on bmg and I
don't want to cut them off as I test with them and
collectors are getting them. Saigas are strong enough
for that, I don't know about if firing pin can be
beefed up for bmg primers.Ed