The Walnut Hill is as strong as the CSP2 as its
cantiliver levers that the fulcrum pivot connects to,
is from the top, where the CSP2 is pivoted from bottom
so that it has to be built taller to do the same work.
And all the strain has to go through the side rods.
And Walnut Hill for case sizing is as good as my
beefed up ammomaster..ED

Nice press! Personally I use a 20 ton Harbor Freight hydraulic for my 12gaFH resizing needs. Cheap and effective.I use Hand dies mostly for the big stuff. -Rob

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
Nice press! Personally I use a 20 ton Harbor Freight hydraulic for my 12gaFH
resizing needs. Cheap and effective. I use Hand dies mostly for the big stuff. -Rob

Rob,

Please, what are Hand Dies ?

And, do you have one of these four hydraulic 20 ton presses below?

1- http://www.harborfreight.com/c...taf?Itemnumber=65330

2- http://www.harborfreight.com/c...taf?Itemnumber=97022

3- http://www.harborfreight.com/c...taf?Itemnumber=32879

4- http://www.harborfreight.com/c...taf?Itemnumber=37999

If yes can the less powerful ones, [link below] 6 or
12 ton be used to load up to four bore just as well?

http://search.harborfreight.co...sultsPerPageBottom=0

And why spend $395 on the Walnut Hill press http://rceco.com/MN.asp?pg=products&grp=36
when the Harbor Freight presses are SO MUCH LESS!!!!!?????

It'll take 12 tons to resize 4bore cases easy.
The big advantage to a Walnut Hill or my
Ammomaster or a Rock Crusher is you can put many shellholders
into the rams. And you can do regular sizing
with them as well as push cases into dies that
that you can drive back out from the top
if you have to. Rob's hydraulic one has the ease
of no strain operation.No strain on the operator
or the bench/frame.He pushes cases into a die body
and then either pushes them out or taps them out.Ed

Bigfivejack- Hand dies are precision machined dies that are not threaded, but designed to be used with a vise or hydraulic press.Do you remember the old Lee Loader? Sinclair sells them fir precision target rifles for example. To fl size a 12gaFH case requires more than most conventional presses can handle. I think my 20 ton Haebour freight press was about $120 or so. I make the dies by CNC machining. Basically I made a giant sized lee loader for the 12GaFH.-Rob

quote:

Originally posted by hubel458:
Here is a neat idea for a 5 shot 12ga,
a 12ga revolver. Nice looking gun.
Also I found a company that would rebore 10ga
NEF heavy barreled guns to 8ga, if they can
get 5-6 guys lined up to do it, so that they can
make tooling and charge less than
300 bucks to do it. Delta Reboring.
Let me know and we'll get arrangements made
if enough are interested.I have two now.ED

That is one of the coolest looking shotguns I've seen

Casting in Zamok 7

A while back you guys were discussing casting bullets in non lead alloys.
Look up Zamok 7 its a zinc aluminum alloy that is not brittle and melts at 729 degrees F.
It might be right up your ally.

John

Ed & Rob,

Thanks. It looks like $130 for a 12 ton now-a-days,

and near double that for a 20 ton like you have stated

you have Rob.

Ed,

I don't know if you had seen this or not but thought it might be of interest to you:
TOZ123 4 Gauge Shotgun

Colin

Yes BIG AL in DE, Mick in the UP, some guys out west got
them and I helped them get brass cases made by RMC.
By measuring the specs on Al's chamber, when it was here.
It uses a short 3" long 4bore case in a .935" smooth barrel.
A few got imported then stopped, and no ammo was ever imported.
The longer plastic Gevelot cases will work if cut off.
But they are all grabbed up by collectors.Ed

Wow,that is some neat! Would make a great riot gun sawed off!

quote:

Originally posted by CowboyCS:
Ed,

I don't know if you had seen this or not but thought it might be of interest to you:
TOZ123 4 Gauge Shotgun

Colin

Ed,put me on the Delta List!I want a 8 Ga SS Boar Gun ...Maybe you can machine me a lil Harpoon for it too!

Well you make 4 and a couple more and I'll
tell Delta to get tooling started.it'll
take them a while to get tooling made.
But be able to go by spring.Ed

OK,Great...Now come on Guys,we need 2 more Big Bore guys that want a 8 Bore SS!That will make the 6 needed You wont have more than $500 tied up and it will launch some Heavy Hunks of Scrap Metal almost 7/8" diamater!This will also make you a Official Big Bore Nut and a memeber of the recoil club to boot!

Ed,has any of your NEF 12s,10s or 8ga users tried installing iron sights on them?Some Exprees sights would be neat! If so,any pics here?(way to many pages to go though one by one!)

quote:

Originally posted by hubel458:
Well you make 4 and a couple more and I'll

What's the ballistics and available barrel length again?

Karl

Karl--Good to see your still kicking.
The Heavy bull barreled NEF 10ga are 24" and 31",
both with screw in chokes,we can use for 8ga,
They also are good used for 10ga FH.

Couple moderate 8ga loads in 3.3" plastic case-
770gr slug at 2500-- 930 gr slug at 2100 plus-

Kid-- I got rifle type sights on some of mine,
just put on with screws or high stength epoxy.
Peep sights, and ramp sights on front, nothing fancy.
I don't have any pictures of the sights.Ed

Hi Ed, yes depite law of averages I remain at large

Oh my that is powerful.

What powders does it use? Can it handle any of the regular Hodgon types or was this a mostly 4759/ VN110 type affair again?

Karl.

Karl-- I use 4759 and now also RE17, which
seems best for case longevity. about 4 reloads
without resizing with the swaged down REM cases.
Which is great with 70 cent case.Ed

I have been lurking here for some time, but never posted until now. I have read all of the posts in this string at least twice because it is so phenomenal how you guys have pushed the boundaries. I really don’t have a desire to fire a full-bore 1,000+ grain 12 gauge slug at .220 Swift velocities, but I am interested in applying your work toward a slightly different application. I want to build a practical magazine fed whitetail gun for use in a slug only zone. It would be built using what this group has done with high pressure loads, but with shorter brass cases, similar to Ed’s earlier project with the smoothbore 1887 2 ¾” 12 gauge. I am thinking of a relatively light magazine fed bolt action on a 3” 20 gauge Savage 220 action. Of course it would utilize a rifled barrel.

I don’t own a Savage 220 yet, but if a person measured the maximum OAL that can fit into the magazine and function reliably, it is probably about 2.8”. That is the SAAMI maximum OAL of a rolled 3” 20 gauge shell. If a person cut a 2 ½” chamber and “rifle” lead in a custom barrel for a 220, it should be possible to use the action and magazine unmodified with RMC brass. The 2 ½” chamber has been a standard chamber length for both 20 and 12 gauge guns in the past (I want to take away as many potential arguments from any conservation officer that might question the legality). The slugs would not be the most aerodynamic due to the .3” crimp groove to nose length, but this wouldn’t be intended for use as a 300 yard gun. It shouldn’t be too hard to keep the mass of the slug to about 500 grains in lead with a solid base and nose. The case would actually have a capacity equal to a rolled 3” round, but the RMC case would be capable of much higher pressures. We know the action is strong, and the barrel shouldn’t be too hard to scale for the necessary pressure. I am guessing the limiting factor would be the brass cases. I believe the RMC cases can be safely used for up to about, 35kpsi, correct? I am hoping that using a 20 gauge will allow me to maximize velocity and keep recoil down with lighter slugs (relatively speaking). I would like to keep barrel length to no more than 24” plus a brake or 26” if ported. I might go 2” shorter depending on how much it would reduce velocities.

I am hoping that the short cartridge length, solid slug base, and RMC brass would allow a person to eliminate wads while still keeping pressures to a level within the limits of the system. I believe that traditional wads can significantly reduce accuracy with slugs. I suspect that the high pressure gasses leaving the muzzle cause the wad to “buffet” the slug in a fairly random manner as they pass the wad and slug. It is probable that the input on the base of the slug from the wad would be much more variable than the fluid gasses alone would be without the wad between. Any erratic input that close to the muzzle is likely to create significant accuracy issues downrange. I suspect that is why some factory full bore slugs capture the wad on the slug and carry it to the target. Others use a male/female connection that would probably keep the two together briefly or allow them to separate more consistently after they leave the muzzle. If required to use wads I would probably port the barrel. My thought is that much of the accuracy robbing characteristics of wads behind the slug can be minimized with an aggressively ported barrel. It should strip off the high pressure gasses, allowing for smoother separation. I don’t think this is an original thought; I believe I read something similar here in an earlier post.

I am throwing my ideas out to ask for input from this group. I quite frequently miss the obvious when I burry my mind in something like this. My questions are:

1. Broadly speaking, what is missing in my thought process? I am an amateur in these matters.

2. Is it feasible to eliminate wads with the shorter case? I understand that with this large of a bore there must be a complete fill.

3. What kind of velocities might be possible for a 500 grain 20 gauge slug within the confines of such a system?

4. I was looking at Krieger for a barrel (.621” groove to groove and a 1 in 20 twist). That seems like a pretty fast twist. I believe the length of the slug would be about .65” to keep it around 500 grains with a large metplat and short nose. Would anyone have other recommendations on barrel options?

5. What would my minimum contour be to allow for the full pressure potential with the RMC cases? I believe that the maximum diameter of the Krieger barrel would be 1.250”.

6. Does anyone have a recommendation on who to use to cut a slug mold?

Thanks in advance for any assistance.

If your using a shorter case like 2.75 brass and just a
seal and cushion wad to moderate starting and peak
pressures you can do so with the factory rifled barrel.
Seal and some cushioning is a must with turned and plastic cases.
With length of slug and seal and cushion the bullet will be into
the rifling before the cushion is out of the case.
That will keep weight down, and save money on a barrel
and the factory barrels are proving to be very accurate.
And relative to bore size they are heavier than 210 12ga.
And with short case you won't get muzzle pressures
high enough to hurt factory barrel.
One guy posted on shotgun world of using RE17 loads in 20ga
220 and he killed two deer this year, at 230 yds and 160 yds.
Gun was scoped and loaded fast with RE17 in plastic cases.
While your waiting on RMC cases load some hairy loads in
plastic to get a feel of it.Ed

4 ga. pump shotgun
I wonder just how absolutely impossible it would be to get one imported over here.

Oh well, I guess we have to let that one stay over seas. Along with the cars that get 65 mpg and are fast as hell.

John

MT in MN,

Get Steve Brooks in MT (Brooks' Tru-Bore Moulds) to make a shorter version of something like this,
but get settled on the barrel and slug the bore to measure groove diameter before you order,
and ask him to make the slug .001" larger than groove diameter in 30:1 lead:tin alloy:

(from the 20 Gauge 3.5" "Hellboy" thread)






Yep, .616" diameter, and 956.5 grains +/- 0.5 grains for these two specimens (soft 30:1) that Steve Brooks cast and sent with the mould, as is his customary service.
The slug length is 1.345".

Should be very close to 900 grains when made of "hardcast" alloy.
Might even swell up enough to seal the NEFer rifling.
The slugs as shown would be good in the TC Encore, with no sizing required, only some lube required.

Ordered the nose punch and the ventilated sprue plate as extras.
Nice.

Now I will have to wait for the 3.5" 20 Gauge RMC brass.

DRG says: "Kiss my liberal grits!"
Letter Rip

That is one good looking bullet

I'm working on a Encore Pro Hunter for this project. But I dont have the disposable income to blow on it all at once. Or to make any mistakes.

I will be watching your progress with great interest.

John

We talk about liking the use of heavier slug barrels
in using our slow powder and handling recoil better.
Guy out west has this heavy muzzled, Hastings, rifled
barrel, for his REM 870. In first pic is a comparison to the
original 870 barrel. It shows a muzzle as heavy as on
a NEF Ultra Slug GUN. 2nd picture is the gun itself.
That makes a neat slug gun..Ed

That mold is a work of art.

I think that it's not in the cards for a repeater do to max OAL/case capacity limitations. If I go with a single shot I think that I would have a difficult time going over a 3" 20 gauge chamber with my host options except the H&R.

I don't suspect that anything over a 3" case would reliably eject from a 220 given the issues people seem to have with plastic 3" ejecting, particularly once a scope is mounted (which I definitely would be doing). The Encore barrel would be paper thin over the rear forearm dovetail with a 3 1/2" chamber. That just doesn't sound like a good idea. The H&R and factory barreled 220 are limiting with a 24" and 22" barrel. If I port I will lose additional velocity.

How much velocity am I likely to be able to get with a 28" - 3" chambered 20 gauge Encore with RMC brass and a 500 to 600 grain slug?

My goal would be to achieve about 2,100 fps muzzle velocity with a slug in that weight range while keeping the gun useable for stand/blind unting for whitetail. I want to do it with literal "rifle like" accuracy.

I am leaning toward the Encore since I already have a couple of frames to use with a 20 gauge barrel, and I like the rhought of the 28" barrel. another option would be to rebarrel a 220. I would rather stick with a 3" chamber though and utilize barrel length instead of case length if it is possible to reach desired velocities safely.

When I put a 3.5" 12ga chamber in the encore I
tested here, I filled the dovetail and put on
a nut to thread to for forearm. 20ga will be
twice as thick in that area.
You on good track with a long barrel toward getting
the speed you want.500gr at 2100+ with full load
of RE17.I'm doing a 3.5" 20 on this FBW falling
block I have here.Ed

quote:

Originally posted by hubel458:
I put a 3.5" 12ga chamber in the encore ... 20ga will be twice as thick in that area ...
... 500gr at 2100+ with full load
of RE17.I'm doing a 3.5" 20 on this FBW falling
block I have here.Ed

Hope to see Ed's FBW 3.5" 20ga photos poster here.

I agree with him on the Encore.
Plenty of barrel thickness there for 20ga.
I am going to do one of those.
My barrel slugged .615" in the grooves.
It will work with that pretty slug as cast in 30:1, 950-ish-grains weight.

You can put 5 pounds of lead in the butt of an Encore, and 5 pounds of muzzle brake/barrel extension on it and have a well balanced 17.5 pounder.

The H&R/NEFer will be tried with linotype slugs from that mould, so they will be bigger diameter and lighter weight, maybe 900-ish-grains slug.
My factory 20ga NEFer had grooves closer to .620 when I slugged it, IIRC.
It could be turned into a well balance 20-pound 20ga with scope.

Stupid recoil question here.

Do the Mercury recoil reducers realy work by sloshing around in there?
OR
Are you just better off stuffing some lead in there?

John

Ed almost has me convinced on getting a 20ga barrel for my NEF Buffalo Classic. Keep trying Ed, one more little push is all I need. I'm a recoil junky from way back and my friends think I'm crazy.

Keep up the good work, Ed.

Back on mute.

The heavy rifled barrel in previous post was made by
Hastings for the Remington 870. It is 26" long and a
muzzle diameter of over an inch. Hastings is gone now,
but we'd like to find some of these barrels. The Hastings
number of the barrel is 560H90.

In the meantime Remington has come out with their
SPS Super Magnum Slug Gun with 25.5" rifled barrel and
a 1" diameter muzzle, with more solid barrel, and extra
pins in mounting barrel, so a scope can be put on action. Ed

quote:

Originally posted by hubel458:
Well you make 4 and a couple more and I'll
tell Delta to get tooling started.it'll
take them a while to get tooling made.
But be able to go by spring.Ed

Ed,

Go ahead and count me in as well...

Everyone needs at least one 8 Gauge...

Matt V.

I agree with you on that!Anybody else NEEDS a lil 8 gauge for the rack?! Great for things that bite back and won't cost you that much to own!It can Hurl 3 Ounce Slugs or Shot at your quarry and also fell a nice size tree if needed!

Matt makes 5 and got couple others on ther forums, talking
themselves into it.Won't be long.Ed

That Rem. 870 is nice but have you seen the new Mossberg 835 Ultramag?
3 1/2 inch 12 ga. thumbhole stock and they have a slug barrel for it.
http://63.149.92.171/products/...=20§ion=products

When Ed showed the semi auto shotgun with the 585 shell in the action, this one came to my mind.

John

RIP has 835 with thumbhole, rifled barrel and Bret Ittel has one.
I've seen pics or handled most. The Ithaca Deerslayer 3 rifled heavy
barrel is another good one. The nicest looking, biggest action one,
in pump or auto is that 3.5" Khan auto I have here I tested
some USS-S smoothbore slugs with.Picture is above.ED

I am now putting a 3.5" 20ga on the FBW action.
We are having RMC make 3.5" brass 20ga cases. I also
bought a huge box of 3.5" plastic case Hastings
hot rod sabot slugs at their out of business auction.
Picture is of FBW with brass case in the feed trough.
Any wanting to do 20 ga brass cases, at same time,
contact RMC, they'd like to make a big batch this spring..
I also got few of the cases to make the 10ga FH
brass 4.050" long case. Anyone wanting one. I'll part
with them, but I'll only will have a few. The brass is hard
to find and costly.. Ed

I always wondered if you could lengthen the ejection port of that 835 to take a 4" long case with bullet.Even though the barrel has enough meat what about the 870's locking lugs? I've always been leery of pushing one anywhere near 38KPSI. ED Your thoughts?-Rob

Looks like the 3.5 inch Kahn semi auto is no longer imported.
At least its not on the website.

Still hoping the Mossy 835 pans out.

John