Here is a picture of a BPI sabot with a BPI Flexseal I
use on to it in place of the original cushion seal.
I also cut shallow slots in the outside at the bottom
of the petals. Sabot opens much quicker and seems
along with BPGS seals under it to work ok without
damage, giving high velocities. In pic on left is regular
BPI sabot, behind is one I put a cushion on from a
Brenekke KO slug, and in front the one with Flexseal on.
The slug in it is one a guy casts at 440 gr and .504"
diameter, and works ok.

New info on my 499HE, from now on we will make cases
out of 450 #2 brass, as Jamisons has 3-4000 cases,
and it seems no one has the 475 #2 we used first.
Only slight case dimension change is the base .012"
smaller, all else is the same. I'm getting reamers redone
and will be able to use in couple weeks. Case will still have
plenty of taper to extract easy in singles, doubles,
falling blocks.etc.

And speaking of falling blocks I found one, and put my 585HE
in it, and it is big enough and has enough clearance to be used
for a 577NE, 600NE, long 20ga, my long 16ga FH,
the 700H, the 700HE. Cost no more than Ruger, with barrel
figured in. Will have pics
and info soon. Ed

In the 16 GFH here (Nice work!) can you shoot 600 or 577 bullets in a sabot?

If you can get right wad cups,
you could use the Lyman 20ga slugs and
the 585, and 620 rifle slugs.
The .660" dia slug that Greg made for a 12ga wadcup
will work in 16ga as well as the 16ga
Lightfield slugs you can buy for reloading.
Here is pic of 16GA FH-Ed

For those who dont know the 16GFH is a BMG case swaged down and the rim thinned to 16 Gauge spec so it is one piece shooting a .662" slug.

Pretty sweet.

Here is picture of a FB I found that I put
my 585HE in. It didn't need any work on the
feed trough to feed. 585 case shown in it.
In fact the trough is big enough
and the action big enough for 600NE, 3.5" 20ga
brass, 3.5" 16ga FH, my 700 HE long case.
I reworked a NEF stock to it, as I'm not
a stockmaker.Nice action.Second picture is
action with a 16ga FH in it.Ed

Cool stuff Ed!

Is anyone going to make a rimmed or rimless 20 GFH using 577Trex brass since it is the same casehead?

Maybe a 600 Nitro rimless or rimmed 3"

20ga Fh got to be 3.5" so easier to get
RMC as Trex and 600NE are only 3".
Trex, 5 bucks plus cnc made rim of 5 bucks
as rims quoted to me, plus the work;
600ne 20-30 bucks loaded, expensive.
Rmc 3.5" 20ga 8 bucks, the good choice
and you buy a .620" barrel for falling block.
Rmc makes cases exact for .620" bullets so you
can cast or use rifle bullets.And still can
shoot 20 ga slugs and sabots.Ed

Just contacted them.

Only has 2 or 3 of big Model L pictured.
May have more in spring.

Does have a few Model S, next size down,which will
do for cases as big as my 585HE.I got
an S model coming for 585 and going to
put bigger in the big Model L.

FBW- Leo Fix- Rapid City, MI-
1-231-590-7391

Here is picture of the FBW falling block with my
700HE long case in it.This falling block is 1.5"
wide, with a 1.125" wide breach block.
The sides are .187" thick next to breach block.
This compares to about .165" say for a Browning
B-87, Win copy. The feed trough would work with
12ga size rim if some work was done on the top
of the hammer. This has a barrel thread length of
1.005", thread diameter of 1.125" for good
strength. Ed

Here is picture of the falling block with a
600NE in the feed trough. Work great
chambered as a 3.5" 20 gauge, for
20 gauge 3.5" brass and plastic cases also.

Second pic is different 12GA FH. I have few of these
I made if anyone wants some loaded with a jacketed
slug and shipped to them UPS. 20 bucks ship included. Ed

Another way that I put a 12ga rim on
bmg case is to use the new Magtech brass
12ga cases made by CBC in Brazil.
BPI and others sell them for less than
a buck each. Being so short they aren't
in the 12ga FH category of generating power.
But you cut them off a quarter inch long, and
turn a BMG rim down to .715 diameter, push on the
Magtech base, with JB weld in the Magteck
base, and set up a squeeze collet to
crimp the Magtech base sides into the BMG
extractor groove. Crimp it in hard and tight.
And it uses large rifle primers.Fed Mag 215 best.
Other bmg case work needed is to put a chamfer
on the bmg primer pocket and drill out the
bmg primer pocket straight so that there is no
block to the primer gases coming out through the
Magtech flash hole. These will handle
20,000 psi loads.Ed

Here is picture of Brett Ittel's Savage 210 he has setup.
It has a 3.5" 12ga chamber in a heavy 27" Pacnor barrel,
that he put in place of original. He also put in a Knoxx
spring/cam recoil absorbing butt plate in the hollow
Savage plastic stock. He replace the plastic parts of the
absorber with aluminum parts. It is shown without the boot
so you can see how it is in the butt.He also has an oversize
pad on it. He hasn't weighted the gun with anything else and
it shoots comfortable, even off the bench with loads that get
a 500gr slug in a BPI sabot over 3000 fps. He gets this speed
with BPI and 500 gr in 3.5" plastic cases. He also can use
3.5" RMC cases and our BMG based case, cut to 3.5"...Ed

Some 8ga work.I found a way and made a die that
swages the 8ga kiln cases down to regular 8ga size.
It swages the belt down and a turning tool I made
removes the sharp edge on the belt after swaging,
to make a smooth transition to the right size.
It does it 4 times faster than previous process.
My chamber on the NEF is set up so regular sizes fit
and loaded kiln cases with the belt step won't go in.
It works with both the REM 8ga cases from BPI and the
WIN 8ga cases from Precision Reloading, and the
WIN cases are only 44 bucks a hundred, primed.
The WIN cases have the same extra powerful primer
just like the REM cases. The REM cases are black
and the WIN cases a see through plastic. Both same
thick sides.Anyone needing cases worked over
contact me... Ed

[A] Which is less costly in the long run:

1- 16 GFH being swaged 50 BMG cases & having rim altered

2- 20 GFH 3.5" RMC made cases at $8- per piece of brass
_____________________________________________

[B] Why not use 3" 20 Ga. brass and load .620 diameter rifle

bullets 900 grn, ala 600 NE for identical velocity to that

classic, keeping the option to use 20 Ga. slugs as mentioned

several posts above this one? Doing this allows one to re-

chamber to 600 NE specifications down the line if desired. Of

course you'd start with a bbl at .620".
_____________________________________________

[C] What are the diameters of:

1- 20 Ga. rim and base

2- 16 Ga. rim and base
THANKS TO ALL WHO HELP WITH THESE ANSWERS!

The 20 ga RMC cases are much much less than me building
16ga FH from BMG brass, as it takes 4 swagings and
3 anealings as well as machining in my case lathe.
In fact I can't do anymore as it is time
prohibitive; takes 3-4 hours to make one.

The 8 buck RMC 3.5" 20ga is a third of what 600NE
3" costs, so it is best to stay 20ga 3.5" and RMC
charges same for long as for short cases. And if a chamber
is 20ga its mouth od size, is bigger than 600NE to start.
And you can get NEFs already set for 3.5" 20ga, or
a 3.0 20ga NEf or 20ga Savage 220 and just run in a
3.5" reamer.Dixie and others have 20 ga slugs,

And a lot of the factory 20ga measure .620 so they
will shoot 600NE bullets.

600NE Rim.800" Base-.698" Mouth - .649"

20ga Rim-.760" Base .690" Mouth-.675

16ga rim .810" base .740" mouth .740"

My testing with turned case it is easier to get
NE velocities with longer case, without cases
sticking a little.Ed

ED- Did you install Ruger #1 internals in your falling block action?-Rob

Looks like a Hiwall to me Ed.

Rob- No it is built more like the FBW and WIN
only with the hammer and trigger behind the block.
Like a FBW, with the block not carrying the hammer
when it goes down.But the hammer pivot stationary
and the trigger pivot on the top. With trigger pivot
up then I was able reduce the debth of the
reciever so it would go into a one piece stock.Ed

quote:

Originally posted by hubel458:
The 20 ga RMC cases are much much less than me building
16ga FH from BMG brass, as it takes 4 swagings and
3 anealings as well as machining in my case lathe.
In fact I can't do anymore as it is time
prohibitive; takes 3-4 hours to make one.

Thanks for this info. ^ Too bad it's so much labor on the 16.

quote:

The 8 buck RMC 3.5" 20ga is a third of what 600NE
3" costs, so it is best to stay 20ga 3.5" and RMC
charges same for long as for short cases.

Again, good info. ^

quote:

And if a chamber is 20ga its mouth od size,
is bigger than 600NE to start.

I live and I learn. ^

quote:

And you can get NEFs already set for 3.5" 20ga, or
a 3.0 20ga NEf or 20ga Savage 220 and just run in a
3.5" reamer.Dixie and others have 20 ga slugs,

And a lot of the factory 20ga measure .620 so they
will shoot 600NE bullets.

600NE Rim.800" Base-.698" Mouth - .649"

20ga Rim-.760" Base .690" Mouth-.675

16ga rim .810" base .740" mouth .740"

I appreciate ALL this ^ data.

____________________________________________________

So how does the 12 GFH fit in, cost wise, over the long run?

Can they be done cheaper than 8 bucks per piece?

What about the belted rimless 12 Ga on the Boys brass?

The 12ga FH is about 12-15 bucks due to the
cost of making rims and threading cases.

The 12ga FH I done a few of, with a slip
on 12ga basecup, epoxied on, still take
a bit of work, is about same.
I'm selling them to collectors for
20 bucks shipping inccluded.

Making the the belted 12ga from Boys is easiest
machine wise, just reduce belt a little,
and expand to 12ga size, but they cost about
15-20 bucks each before I work on them
as collectors are after
them also.

The redeeming feature of these and RMC
cases is they last a long time.Ed

A switch barrel auto we are tested 3.5" 12ga
smoothbore USS-S slugs, with hopped up loads.
About as accurate as the other guns here. Also
I'm getting the auto set up in my 585 HE long
case.585 HE long case shown in the port.
Switching barrels only takes minutes.
It is originally a 3.5" 12ga autoloader I've reworked
the stroke and have a barrel extension coming to add
585 28" barrel. Gun is weighted, thick double pad.
We are going to see how mild 585 HE loads of
9,000 ft lbs work in autoloader.Ed

Has anyone besides me ever ordered and received any 3.85" 12Ga brass from RMC?

Has anyone besides me ever ordered any 3.5" 20Ga brass from RMC?

I ordered the 20Ga3.5" brass on 11-3-2009.
When I ordered it, Dave Casey said he had never made any of it before.
I am still waiting.

DRG says: "Kiss my liberal grits!"

I ordered 20ga 3.5" and he is to get to
them in a few weeks, end of winter. Going to use them
in the FBW I think.

I got 3.5" 12ga 2 years ago. I was suprised when
I found he only had done 3" 20ga.. I'll call him
again next week, as I was going to increase the order
anyway.ED

A barrel and action related question to you fine Gentlemen,

What is the optimal rifling twist for the Darwins?

Will a Martini Henry action be able to handle any of the From Hell cartridges?

Thanks, John

In a Martini Greener 12ga frame I have here, I was able
to feed 12ga 3" brass case with a slug
through the action, into a 12ga chamber.
And also 3" plastic cases.Nothing longer
will feed without grinding to much away
on the top of the back of the breach block.
They can handle 20-23k psi loads in brass case.Ed

Another "long run" cost question. So far the 20 Ga. 3.5"

Brass Cases from RMC at about $8.00 a piece are the lowest

cost "long run" choice. But NOW I ask, what's the "long

run" comparison with the 13 bore belted, AKA the 700 HE?

What do these cost per unit? How's their life span?

Both the long and short of my 700s will last forever.
And they are $6 each now, shipping included.
Thait's with bmg primer pocket.Ed

Well then, THEY are the clear winner of the

lowest "True" cost mega big bore contest.

http://ammoguide.com/cgi-bin/a...BWaYGYRPJT&catid=611

Could it hold a larger diameter bullet? If yes,

what would be the largest diameter, even

custom size, that would work from this Master

Piece of Brass Forming, .729?

When you straighten out for .729"
12ga the sides are nearly straight and
extraction would be a problem.I don't do that.
And that is the reason I made belted 12ga
with 55 BOYS case as it gave me .025"
bigger base and decent side taper for
extraction. Ed

Here's the basis of my confusion. On pg 63 0r 64

[Quote Hubel]
New info on my 499HE, from now on we will make cases
out of 450 #2 brass,...Case will still have
plenty of taper to extract easy in singles, doubles,
falling blocks.etc.

So I contemplate:

450 #2 NE BASE = .565" Now load a bullet of .499"

and the diff. is .066" in 3.5" tall brass.

Unless I misread ammmoguide's 700 HE dimensions,

it has .795" BASE. So less .066 = .729" bullet diam.

Right?

Ok The 499 with bullet in it is .522" mouth.
Subtract that from .565" base ahead of the rim
gives .043" taper.

My 700 case the mouth with bullet in it is .740".
That .795" you quote is the belt diameter.
The base ahead of the belt is .775" and difference
is .035" subtracting mouth from the base.
If you expand it to 12ga .729-730"" bullet size,
then the mouth is about .770" which would only leaves
.005" taper.

The belted 12ga I made here to test with has .770"
mouth, a .800" base ahead of the belt and a .825" belt.
And I didn't have to make a belt on the case.
As the Boys case is belted.Ed

OK, once again Ed has turned the lights ON for me!

Where would some of us, like me for one be, without

such expert guidance? Ed's seemingly divinely inspired
PATIENCE is greatly appreciated.

Ed and Rob, you guys have got me well and truly intrigued.

Bring on the fun .

Paz

quote:

Originally posted by Paz:
Ed and Rob, you guys have got me well and truly intrigued.

Bring on the fun .

Above nominated for the understatement of the year.

PAZ- The NEF is the most inexpensive and easiest way to get into the 12GaFH.-Rob

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
PAZ- The NEF is the most inexpensive and easiest way to get into the 12GaFH.-Rob

Rob, have been sending a few pm's to Ed and he has been most helpful.

I ordered my H&R(NEF) today and hopefully it shouldn't be to far away, 24" heavy barrel Ultra Slug Hunter.

Waiting on a contact i have here in Aus to get back to me on availability of once fired 50bmg brass he usually has in stock, once i get the cases i will do some playing.

Thinking the best way will be to do the epoxy on cup style and fill primer hole and ream to fit shotgun primer as Ed mentioned.

The H&R i ordered will have a 3" chamber, for now i will play with that until i can organize a 12GFH reamer out here from PTG.

What is the best mold to buy/use in your opinion? I have all the casting gear so i will go that route.

Have just melted a cup out of a 12g shell and have got one 50cal case here i have just been playing with.

Jack, us Aussies tend to understate things .

Paz

PAZ- You can order my reamer from PTG. Just tell I said it was OK and to call and verify. Alternatively I suppose you could ship the arrel only to me for rechambering. Their are some NEI molds in 12Ga that will work. Personally nothing beats the Darwins and I will be doing another Run of them soon.-Rob

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
PAZ- You can order my reamer from PTG. Just tell I said it was OK and to call and verify. Alternatively I suppose you could ship the arrel only to me for rechambering. Their are some NEI molds in 12Ga that will work. Personally nothing beats the Darwins and I will be doing another Run of them soon.-Rob

Was going to shoot you a PM (or Ed) and find out the right way to go about getting the reamer, thanks for clearing that up, i will most defiantly take you up on it.

Worst part of shipping the barrel to you would be all the import and export rigmarole that would be needed, maybe just better to have a reamer here in Aus for you .

Actually got a buddy of mine who i was talking to last night about the 12GFH, when i picked him up this morning to go shooting he said he is going to order a Slug Hunter on Monday, another possible victim builder.

Would like to try some of the Darwins, I would only need to get an import permit my end which is easy enough if there is no problems your end, when you get to running them let me know and we can sort it out.

Paz

Paz,

I am curious why you are picking the more expensive

12 GFH over the less costly 700 HE, which is also

based on the 50 BMG. Not being critical, just trying to

follow your train of thought.

He and others in AUS can make their own 12ga FH
cases by putting on basecups like Paz is
starting to do. Or if one has a CNC machine
make the original screw on rim, thread the case like
we had done first, and make them that way.
And just buy a NEF, with a simple chamber lengthening,
to get their start in the recoil club.

None there or here does what I do to make my 700 belted
case and I don't have export permits to get them there.
If demand gets going for my 700, Bertram in AUS said
he will make them for 10 bucks each with big order.
Plus he is set up export back here.

Another breakthrough with a 10ga FH, is putting 10 gauge
basecups from plastic cases onto 50cal Russian brass to
make a 4.05" long 10ga. I expand case using my shellholder
on original rim, put in bushing for shotgun primer, which
fires of RE17, the turn case and rim a little, and slip
on basecup with epoxy inside. Then take a 200 dollar heavy
barrel NEF 10ga, and deepen chamber like mine is.
Here is picture with one beside a 12ga FH. The 12ga FH holds
max load of about 330 gr ball powder below a slug,
and the 10ga FH holds 420gr. I'm getting things set
to get a bunch of cases to do this. Whoopee....Ed