quote:

Originally posted by 470drshooter:
I want to thank Rob and his lovely wife Gerri for being such friendly and hospitable people.

His working shop is beyond anything I would have imagined as a home shop. I think any professional gun maker would be envious.


Get a 600 OK and forget the chiropractor. Every time you need an adjustment, just send a couple 900 grainers down range and your spine will get loosened up right now.

While I have not gone shooting with Rob, I have had dinner with him and his lovely wife and visited the "shop". I agree 100% with everything you said!

Whenever I tire of the silly debate and chest-thumping by some here, I search for a post by Rob and feel better.

Why?

The reasons above plus:
Like a few others here - he's "been there, done that" more than once;

envisions, creates and shares;

AND he puts a nice "smack-down" on certain blithering idiots - which always brings a smile to my face.

Thank you for the kind words. Its always a pleasure to make friends with folks who know what they are doing and are still not afraid to ask for some advice. I've always made it a point to help others avoid all the mistakes I have made in the past. For the most part people here on AR are great and deserve respect. There are of course a few loosers that stir up trouble,but we quickly weed them out. You quickly learn who is full of it and/or themselves and those who know a thing or two. I prefer to deal with the latter. Just like in real life I dont suffer fools well.-Rob

12GaFH Double Rifle update. Going slowly but making progress. I've fitted the top rib and today cut the dovetails for the front sight and Quarter rib. I choose a NECG express sight with two leaves as it was exaxtly the right width for the Quarter Rib. These cuts are simple in principal but if you screw up the part is finito! Since I have 30 hrs into each part, I spent lots of time thinking and measuring rather than cutting steel. It was a good day as both came out perfect. Pics to come.-Rob

I checked the OK cases the man sent me.He had 20
that extracted hard using IMR4350, and a 100 that
did extract better.This relates to 12GA FH work also.
I sectioned and both were same corners inside, the
sticky ones slightly softer than others but still
as hard as other good cases I have. Their corners were
adequate for the belt length, with right loads.
So the reason why, as they're hard enough with right powders.
I'll explain, as same can happen in real big bore
like 12GA FH. You get to big bullets and 150gr on up of
powder you go slower powders that also get to the peak
pressure slower, and you use more of it. You gotta
take the 3031,4064,4895,4320,4350 shelf and save them
for pipsqueek cases. Use 7828, and slower ball
and Alliant powders, Magpro, etc powders. Both types
of cases showed heavy scraping on the cases just ahead
of the belt indicating powder that gets to peak
pressure too fast and hard. Wears out cases to fast.
We used right powders in 12GA FH. my 700s, etc,
and didn't even have to resize bottom of the cases.Ed

I think thats something that can be easily overlooked Ed. Wrong powders = Disarster if the end user is not careful.

In light of that maybe its time to add a complete Clear and Precise Maual / Method Post from start to finish of the making of a 12GaFH, Not just the Shotgun, but also all the Loads.

It may pay to have this as a new Post and if possible to get it stickyed. I know all the info is in this thread, but its buried in so many pages and some of the details maybe over looked.

Anyway, food for thought.

Thats why I have been very careful about using powders faster than RL-25 with heavy bullets. I know Rl-25, H50BMG are safe with 1000gr bullets and that IMR3031 is fine with the 350gr Aluminum darwins. Its easy to get into big trouble if your not cautious.-Rob

It isn't neccessarily in this instance a disaster using
4350 in an OK, but just harder on the brass.
And I know why folks want to use it is that
it is on the shelves and being faster use less,
but if you cut the life of brass in half, better
to use more of a better powder. In the OK, full cases,
the best powders are RL25- RL22- the new W780-
VV560- VV570- VV165- VV170-Magpro- Imr7828- H1000, for loads
in the hunting speed range.

I got the barrel on the 4ga/bore falling block gun.
I has a thumbhole laminated stock from Vulcan 50cal.
Barrel 32" long, 1.87" breech, gun now weighs 27lbs.
Working on the trigger and hammer. Notice the breech block
is dowm and the huge hole in the back of barrel.
I guess cannon is the proper terminology.
I still need Vulcan stocks if someone can find them
reasonable.Ed

I got barrel on the 4ga/bore falling block gun.
Barrel 32" long, 1.87" breech, gun is 27 lbs.
Notice breech block is down and huge hole in barrel.
Maybe shoulder cannon is the right term for it.
It is all inleted into thumbhole laminated Vulcan
50 cal stock, of which I need more, if anyone
knows where there are any...Ed

Looking Good Ed! I have an old .50BMG stock , I think with a thumbhole, set up for a Mcmillan action you can have if you want it.-Rob

Thanks Rob, I'll be able to use it.
Be a tremendous help for my experimenting.
Here is pic of the whole gun from the
front showing a 2000gr bullet sticking
out, to simulate stop frame photo work.
It is wicked looking.Ed

Dang Ed that thing is a monster. Looking real good. Who made the 4 bore barrel?

Back on the 12 gauge from hell, using re 17 at 175 grains behind the 1085 grain darwin, I shot those originally at about 80 degrees, it's now over 105 during the day here in Oklahoma, am I going to run into problems because of pressure rise? Or is re 17 not really affected by temp changes? Also, is h50bmg temp sensitive?

Barrel is 1" smoothbore, from 4130 high strength
1" seamless tubing, 1 7/8" od.. 117 bucks shipping included.
No more waiting for someone to make expensive
rifled ones. And Naval Ord will swage hollowbase
lead slugs on his big hydraulic Corbin bullet press.
I'll hollowbase the slugs I have here.
I plan on 1600 gr hollowbase slug at 2700 plus,
for bragging rights.

The RE17 with the deterrent all the way through
the powder, should be affected very little by that
temp change. Going from 80 down to zero might
make some difference. I really like that powder.
HBMG, also fairly stable.Ed

Ed,
That's a dream gun.Reckon 5-6 oz of shot will cram into those cases? Pm me you need anything else for the project

karl

I am looking to get going on a 12gaFH and waiting for a laminate stock NEF from my dealer. I have found a walnut stock one I can get fast. Will the walnut stock hold up or should I wait for the laminate version? I intend on building two so one of each would not be a problem for me.

Matthew

Mines the walnut stock one. It has held up so far? Replacement are fairly cheap thru NEF so if it did happen to break you could get a laminate one later? It took a while to get the NEF for me and I've looked for others since then and they say that they can't find them? I'd say go for it. A bird in hand and all that stuff, you know. But that's just me!

I am glad to hear yours held up, I am buying the walnut today, should have it here in a week. I am looking forward to it!

Matthew

Another stock is the thumb hole survivor one you can
fill hollow butt with weight, and add pad to back, then slip
on limbsaver over pad and stock for double cushion pads.

Karl-Yes a couple dozen 3 ought buckshot ought to
be a real effective load.

got 3" chambered 12ga set up to test loads with RE-17.
Many guys want loads for 3" chambered slug barrels as they
come from the factory., So I put extra 24" Savage barrel I had
on a Mauser GEHA bolt action. Rifled Savage barrel is modern
steel with .93" muzzle diameter. Original barrel on the GEHA
was only .82" at muzzle. I added an extra rear bolt locking lug
onto the Mauser bolt. Using up stuff to make test gun.

Any modern steel slug barrel, whether on bolt, autoloading,
pump, or break action gun with same muzzle diameter will handle
these RE-17 loads. Max loads were all 115gr of RE-17 in plastic
3" cases, all with seals and cushion wads. Can't get no more under
the seals, cushions and slugs in 3". Which is why I like 3.5"
chambers. With 437 gr Brenekkee and 420 gr in BPI sabot got
over 1900. With 520gr Lyman in shot cup 1850. With 600gr Dixie
got 1800. With 870 gr hard lead got 1600. This is 24" barrel,
so longer barrels will get more. In comparison to IMR4227 loads,
these are about the same speed as using 90gr of 4227. But this
powder is so much easier on cases and guns, with about .004"
less base cup expansion. It works great in 3" and really gets the
speed in 3.5" cases, as in 3.5" cases,as seal/wads about same,
extra length for powder. The 870gr load is max peak pressure of
16,000 psi. Muzzle pressure is about 3500-4000 psi.
I'll have pic of the Mauser in few days.ED

So far no issues with the stock laminated NEF. Its held up to must be hundreds of shots by now.
ED- Looking formidable.
My Double Rifle is nearly completed just need the shop to to solder it all up and regulate it. -Rob

Laminated are the ones I like looks of best, also.
And they have them in thumbhole for NEF too.
Is Searcy doing thr regulating.Ed

Ed- No I'm doing the regulating. If I get screwed up I'll call Butch. If all else fails, I'm take a trip to Boron.-Rob

I hope you guys don't get regulated by one of these things. It seems like a great fun project.

Glad to hear such good progress
Would love to see a video of the double doing 2 aimed shots when it is done or maybe try it

Go Rob!

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
So far no issues with the stock laminated NEF. Its held up to must be hundreds of shots by now.
ED- Looking formidable.
My Double Rifle is nearly completed just need the shop to to solder it all up and regulate it. -Rob

I agree, the laminated ones look much better than the plain walnut, but, the walnut ones are cheaper, and when I ordered, easier to find. But than again, I'm cheap and probably would have just gone with the walnut anyways!

Ed, thanks for the 3" info. I know I was one of the ones asking about it. Pretty good power levels for the 3" standard shell too. 870 @ 1600 is close to 5000 ft lbs.

Rob, can't wait to see more pictures of the double.

I bought a thumbhole laminated stock for my 12GAFH...I didn't like it all that much and it was slick, so hard to hold...easy enought to fix that, it just didn't fit me right for that barrel, so I put it on my swithbarrel 17FB/6BR receiver...It works nice there.

I bought a U-Finish thumbhole from Gun Stocks, http://www.gunstocksinc.com/index.html Inc. It has a nice rollover cheekpiece, plenty of meat to fit the thumbhole to your hand and put in finger grooves if you want. Very nice shape I think. I bought the solid Walnut, but they have laminated ones also. Nice and heavy, with plenty of butt to drill holes for weight. I'm just about to finish the painting so will get a picture posted when done.

I also have two varminter forends. Again solid walnut and plenty of wood for weight and for adding weight.

Check out the site.

Luck on your projects.

I got word the walnut shipped out Wednesday so I am getting closer! I still have a laminate on order to.

FOOBAR, thanks for the link, I like the rollover and will be getting one soon. I have not seen these guys before.

Matthew

The NEF "walnut" is usually birch wood, stained a walnut color or painted black.
They do put checkered walnut on some of the "special" Toppers, however.
I would rather trust the laminate or the synthetic.
I don't think birch is stronger than walnut.
However, properly laid out birch may be stronger than "fancy American black walnut that is cross-grained through the wrist."

Ed,
The proper gas seal and a heavy enough slug gets all the RL-17 burnt, eh?

Rob,
Been missing you and Dos Diablos.

Yes the sealing is the secret in 12ga. And RE-17 burns fairly
clean even with lighter(600gr,etc) slugs. It burns
as clean as 4227. Brett in MN has gotten 500gr XTPs in
BPI sabot with doubled up BPI BPGS seals, over 2600 in
his heavy barreled Savage 210, and plastic 3.5" cases
extract with bolt action extractor.

About stocks- the plastic survivor stock is hollow
grip also and I use that to put a second bolt
up from the bottom into a hole I tap/the NEF
frame right behind trigger guard.With hollow butt weighted
and barrel ported I can fire 8ga one handed with moderate
loads, and the grip is textured so it don't slip.
I'm gonna go to to one for my 12GA FH/700HE one as the
wooden thumbhole one that has had lots of
shooting has loosened a little.Ed

I still would like to hear what you guys would use for a scope on these beasties. I'm after one that will be good for 100m-600m and can take the ponding that will be dished out. I may be wrong on this, but I was informed that Air rifle type scopes can handle bigger recoil than a normal scope, something to do with that an air rifle has a large mass moving under recoil (the spring?). I have no idea if this is correct.

I have looked at scopes from Hawke to Nighforce and am still no closer to making my mind up. What makes it a bit more difficult for me is I'm very fussy over reticles. Not one reticle of Leupold's do I like, I'd rather have something like Nightforces CH3 reticle at best or a Mildot with center dot illuminated. I also prefer Side Focus over Objective Focus. I also like 30mm tubes, and I prefer 50mm Objectives as a minimum. Ok, I'm a fussy bugger over scopes all together.

I just dont want to spend over $2500AU on a scope and break it on the first shot! So I suppose I'm after the toughest brand/make of scopes ever made.

Why not a 2moa red dot?

because :
100m - 600m!

Dunno about u matey but I'd be hard pushed to see that far with a red dot scope.

Well, the Leupold is very,very popular. As far as the toughest scope made, I would have to say US Optics, but I don't know if they even make something for this. Are you really gonna try to shoot this cannon at 100 meters up to 600 meters? Holy cow. I have a red dot on my 12 gafh but I believe that it has already been beat to death. It was reasonably cheap on sale, so that probably has a lot to do with the fact it's already ruined. So, I don't know if the red dot is the best idea. I'm sure there are better ones that will stand up to the abuse. As far as air gun scopes being tougher than regular, I'm not sure. But I did try to put a normal scope on a 10/22 once and the recoil impulse from that little 22 busted a darn nice scope. It broke the reticle.

Good luck down under and holler if you need anything from the states

As far as airgun scopes go they are from what I have seen not as strong as a typical Leupold. Some airguns have negative recoil when the piston pushes forward upon firing. If you take a "regular" scope you can ruin it by knocking the lenses askew with the reverse or negative recoil. I hsve never seen it happen, but have been warned a bunch of times and once bought a cheap Bushnell that said specifically that it was not warranted for airgun use. I know I put a centerpoint 4-16 I got at Walmart for about 80 bucks on my RWS 9mm that has worked out great and then put the same model on a buddys Bohica 50 BMG a few months ago with no problem either way. I also had a Bushnell 6-18 airgun scope that cost about $200 that I traded to a friend who put it on his .222 and it broke before he fired 500 rounds. I guess I am trying to say just because it is for an airgun does not mean it is any stronger or better built than a good quality scope.

As far as my 12gaFH, when I get it done it will have a Leupold 1.5-5.

Matthew

Thanks for the replys guys. Any more ideas be great too.

Yes I do intend this to be a 100-600m firearm, but I'll not be using Ed's or Rob's BIG 1000gr or better projectiles. I'll hopefully be useing cast Bismith alloy projy's between 500gr to 800gr at worst.

I suppose a starting point would be to find out what brand/make is regularly used on Bolt Action .50BMG's an above type firearms. Since we are not allowed .50Cal firearms here in Western Australia (WA), I'll have to rely on what the net tells me. So I suppose its off to Barrett an the like, to fine out what they recommend. Speaking of .50Cal Firearm makers, who else makes Bolt Action .50Cals ?

I have Leupold MarkIV tactical scopes on my 50's. A 12x and a 16x. I really do not remember model specifics, but they work well shooting off the bench. Both work well at 1000 yards but of course bench shooting is different than hunting situations.

Matthew

If your only gonna shoot 100m then a Leupold compact will do fine. For 200-600m well I'd probably go leupold Mark IV., 12X . Nightforce is another option with lots of eye relief. Stay away from airgun scopes as they will just break. Use Badger rings too so the scope doesnt slip under recoil and make sure you lap em and grit em.-Rob

Thx Rob will do. I was looking at the Nighforce, seems thats the way to go.

Ditto on the Nightforce and Leupold scopes.

You might put a drop of blue Locktite, NOT the red stuff, on the bottom ring...it fills in the gaps and seems to help holding. I've used it on scope bases and scope rings for umpteen years. Never had a problem with taking a scope off but it will leave a mold that needs to be scraped off. You can leave it tho'.

I've also used paper shims.

Burris Pos-Align rings work great also, and adding an extra ring or two...Ala T/C's T'SOB setup. I used and extra ring on an XP-100 I rechambered to 284 Win...it was the only way to keep a scope locked down. I also saw the same setup on an XP-100 chambered in 45 cal back in the mid 60's.

Ross Seyfried: 3M Liquid Electrician Tape

Rip: Automotive shop silicone sealant/adhesive (RTV) black or clear ... cleans up easier than blue LocTite on scope and rings!
Works better than any "rosin" or grit between scope and rings.

NOT even....ever try to get that nasty silly-conez offa glass???? Samo-Samo on a scope tube....I garoontee you will stick the top ring on the scope tube and the scope on the bottom ring with RTV...I know for a fact...been there-done that...went back to blue locktite...works great if you never want to take the scope off, tho'. Hahahahahah

I used to use RTV to glue belly pans on Cat crawlers, trannies, bell housings, M/C case covers, etc...good stuff when you want thangs to stay put and not leak.

1200 grit wet/dry sandpaper works great also.