Thx Rip.

I think I may disect one case to see what is happening and to settle my mind. I sure do not want to be holding one that is having a hangfire! Not my idea of fun!

Rob, I'm gonna be shooting it this weekend! I'm gonna load up four rounds to take, I think that might be plenty!

Gibs, NEI will also make a custom mould. And, they have a nice 850 ish grain bullet mould for 12 gauge that is a standard, not custom, charge. I haven't tried them in about 10 years though, bought a few pistol moulds from them back then.

Thx msheik, I'll look into them as well.

The falling block is coming along. I'm not copying my
first models that were a scale up of the Wickcliff.
Complete new design, mainly in shape and type of stock
used, the bridge and reciever setup, and trigger/hammer
behind the block. Block will have no curved outside
shapes, front to back. Pics soon with the stock......

Used wadcutter style 8ga slug made by cutting off part
of long nosed one in picture, in my 8ga with RE-17
powder.. Over 2300 fps. Slug is a zinc slug from kiln
gun factory load. With nose cut back and hollow I put
in the base it was 800 gr. It had a .20" wadcutter nose
on it.Good tribute to Elmer. The other one in picture is
just with nose cut off and solid base and is 870 gr.Ed

Gibs- NEI makes a .735 slug designed for paradox guns that with Linotype comes out at .731. I've got one in the shop that I've only used once. It was and maybe still is a standard item.Can you import something like that or does the STATE have a say?
Ed- That slug looks Nasty. I'd like to see some pics of your action as it comes along.-Rob

Thx for that Rob, but I have found a Mob here in Oz that also make a Paradox Slug Mold @ .730. Given that my Savage is .729 its perfect. On the import front Molds are not an issue, so if this ones no good, I can import the one from NEI.

I have asked around on the Aussie forums if anyone has had any dealings with the company I found, but so far no ones replied. Good or bad.

Heres the listing. I like whats written at the bottom tho

If its CBE they are supposed to be very good. Their moulds have been articled several times by gun writers over the years.

Karl:
If by CBE you mean Cast Bullet Engineering, then yes thats who I found. And if so, thx, finaly some feed back. I personaly have never heard of them. I was just poking around doing the ol google bit looking for molds an what the guys gave me above an stumbled onto CBE. Damn thats a big slug 730 - 1000gr! I know that the 12GFH Darwins are heavier but still! Hopefully using the alloy I found I can get the weight down a tad. Be fun playing with it anyway. I had to laugh tho when I saw the 10g an 4g, I thought - Hey that will suit Ed!

PS: I might get both molds, the 730 - 1000 and the 730 - 900, just to fiddle with.

That's them. I recognized the sheet and 10ga pic which I think came about from a guys order in the early 2000's(and me bugging them too at the time I had a 10ga double).
The 'guns and game' shotgun guru(roly poly guy, with or without goatee beard), can never remember his name, uses their moulds for shotgun hunting.

Karl

Well I just spoke to Jim at CBE, very nice bloke. The mold is still available and will cost $125.00 for the mold and a bit more for KL-something handles. Down side, due to its size and the work he already has, it will be 3 months before I get it. No biggy tho. Least he told me that up front, no nasty surprise later.

Gibs,
I do like both of those CBE 730 moulds. I could find some uses for either of those "Double-Foster-Plus" slugs. They seem to speak perfection.



For comparison to the NEI moulds, I like pictures:

My NEI paradox mold worked out fine with Linotype and I just lubed it with SPG and shot it with no sizing needed at all. It was either .731 or .732( cant remember exzctly). I bougth it for my smooth bore Encore which I threaded for a 12 inch section of 12 Ga Rifled barrel to make my own paradox gun. Seemed to work but never spent much time with it. I aught to go back to that project someday! I really liked the shotgun Freebore concept for pressures and velocity and the few rounds I fired showed the bullet stabilized but I never whent any farther with it as I think that was when my Borchardt action arrived.-Rob

Rip:
They are both very similar hey, when my molds arrive I'll try to get some happy snappy pics just for you.

Rob:
Looking at the shape of the bullet I cant see any reason that it wont work well in any 12GFH setup either matey. The original Paradox firearm to me is the forfather of the 12GFH. You guys just brought it kicking but not screaming (not yet anyway) into the 21st century.

I tell you guys, I'm really keen to see what can be done with Bismuth/tin/copper/antimony and even indium in different ratios and do some testing of whats the best alloy from the mold when fired. I'm rather looking forward to it actualy.

Dos Diablos- Update! Well I've been busy! Dos Diablos is now ready for regulation! Its Alive! Just got back from the range and fired a 240 gr Rl25 load with 1085 Brass Darwins Proof from both barrels and it survived. used a Lead Sled a a 25 yrd rope.! looked like it kicked pretty hard but no damage anywhere! The cases in the chamber are 209 shotgun adapted as I have not deceided yet whether I'm going to screw with the hammer springs or not. Making the extractor is not for the timid and even though I have the miracle of CNC, i had to make use of my math skills to make some manual changes to get the damn thing to fit.! I've encluded some pics of the extractor machining and the cutting of the chamber for the extractor. Next comes Regulation and final fitting of all the parts.-Rob

Rob,
Thanks for sharing the work in progress, a masterpiece.
If you plan to sell Dos Diablos to me, you will have to rechamber it for RMC 3.85" brass.

You are showing fired 209-primed cases.
Did you use 15 grains of Blue Dot to set off those 240 grains of RL25 with the 209 primer?
Or does Dos Diablos work with the CCI-35 primers?
That is a pretty good load.
I'll bet it gets better velocity with the 209/Blue Dot starter than with CCI-35 alone,
assuming 240 grains of RL25 is a constant.

Rip- Yup used the 15 gr of blue dot and a tissue paper disc under the main charge. Pressures were low probably due to the short barrel length and cases basically popped out with minimal expansion. They look one hell of alot better than a case with a similar load in the NEF. I should add, that I have cut the barrels back to 19.5 inches as It now balances nearly perfectly with the quarter rib and front sight of 4140 and because I was uncomfortable with less than 1 inch of steel at the muzzel. The gun handles quite nicely like this and is quite lively in the hands.
Both Chambers on Dos diablos are extremely tight just like the Borchardt. a std 12 ga 2 3/4 shotgun shell has to be lightly pushed into the chambers. I chambered the barrels with my high pressure through the barrel cutting oil system and it was super easy. Chips flew out into my magnetic chip elimnator and it took maybe 20 minutes/barrel. The chambers look great too. The biggest problem was the extractor. What a giant PIA that was. Took two days of work to get that right. unfortunately, the gun needs to be headspaced with the extractor in place so I'm glad it worked out finally.-rob

Another couple months maybe 4bore will fire.Just have a
chunk of shaft on front to simulate barrel to
get a stock fit.Got to profile barrel, thread barrel,
fit in hammer,trigger, couple bottom bolts into action,
design and mount extractor.. some springs, firing pin, etc.
May change/lengthen fulcrum on lever so it doesn't have to
move so far. Lever is held closed by little feramic magnet
in grip. Lever stays open due to weight of breach
block.Block moves smooth, no rattling around.
Rob- Guys-,I need some Vulcan V-50 thumbhole laminated stocks.
If there are any used extra ones around let me know.
This way of doing a FB in one piece thumbhole stock will work
for 12GA FH with an action .300" narower.ED

Got to shoot my 12 gafh yesterday. Loaded 160 grains of RL 17 and the 1085 Brass Darwin from Rob in BMG brass with a 209. Definately had some unburnt powder in the barrel after the shot, but didn't have a chrono so no velocities from this firing. I definately need to get a different recoil pad than the standard pad for the NEF. This is by a large margin the largest thing I have fired. Recoil was very fast, wan't ready for that. But all in all was not awful. The NEF is surely a little light from the factory. I think a 12 gafh in the 12-13 pound range would be nice. I do have a video of it, and if I can figure out how to convert it to be played on media player I will attempt to post the video.

Matt that is great, you got the bug.
Finding a thumbhole with thick pad is best.
If staying with the regular pistol grip stock,
Drill extra holes in butt for weight. and
for simple pad fix which is better than
expensive mail order ones, I now when staying
with regular stock, just get a nice slip on
Limbsaver at local shop off the rack, and put
it on over the old factory pad. Works wonders.
As long there is unburnt powder you can go up
a little to get the potential of the brass.Ed

It was nice after a few months to finally be able to fire it off. I was wondering about a slip on or a a grind to fit, but if the slip on will work I'm gonna get that. I saw one at Bass Pro a couple months ago.

Ed, are there any sights that will work on a NEF? Or can I modify some existing sight for it? Also, tried the brass back in the chamber after firing these and they fit in by just dropping them in, so I think pressure must be pretty mild? All the cases ejected like they hadn't even been fired.

Thanks to all for the help getting this thing going!!!!

msheik,
what sort of filler did you use?
QL predicts about 1600 fps for that load.
My experience would predict you are getting about 1400 fps,
unless you did something better than the fiber wads and dacron fluff that I experimented with.
Same unburnt powder thing fpr me.
175.2 grains of RL-17 gave me just under 1600 fps MV, though that charge was chosen because QL said it would give 1800 fps.

****************************************************************
Posted May 17, 7:57 PM

As Ed said, the RL-17 is indeed reliably set off by a plain ol' CCI-209 shotgun primer.

However the best I could do was 25 yard velocity of 1483 fps, equivalent to 1593 fps MV (assuming .150 BC)
with
175.2 grains of RL-17
1085-grain Nohbozo brass Darwin
and filler consisting of:
one nitro card of 0.070" thickness over the powder
one 1/2" thick fiber wad
and 5 grains of Dacron right under the slug
COL 4.180"
with 3.5" RMC brass
and CCI-209 primer

All the RL-17 shots fired, but left a lot of unburnt powder in the barrel.
This was about 200 fps slower than expected.
************************************************************************

My next time out with RL-17 I will use a stack of BPI gas seals
between the powder and slug,
and try for a hotter shotgun primer than the standard CCI-209.

Hey RIP, I chose the 160 grain load because of the data I saw on your quickloads a couple of pages back. I used 2 plastic discs on top of the powder and 2 1/2" fiber wads. I don't have any of the gas seals yet, but may get some to try later. And I will probably end up trying some tissue paper patches between blue dot and h50bmg.

You get enough RE17 in so you only need one
1/2" wad and you'll get cleaner burn.
After the weight and extra pad of course.

Some more info on the 4bore falling block.
Once this is done and firing I will have the plans
to get more made.12ga, 8ga, my 585HE and 700HE sizes,
They will be easier to get good breach
block holes due to being only 2.5" tall due to the
configuration and setting in that style of stock.
I changed plans to this idea- A) as it saves having to make
separate buttstock, drill through bolts, make socket in
back of action, machine curved surfaces,etc.
And if done the old way you don't have
a thumbhole stock. which is a great recoil tamer.
All this needed was action flat on botton, inleted, and back
of action is recoil lug.Along with 2 bolts into action, a
big bolt into barrel ahead of action, and recoil barrel ring
in front we got it tied down.The rear mounted trigger/hammer
all fit in the 2.5" height, and the breach when it comes down
sets hammer at half cock safety position.I have all this working
on an aluminum model.The pivot point for the lever was
a simple addon metal piece into the bottom of action,
and I just inleted stock where it is below the action bottom.
On the top of action I left a cross of metal to keep it stronger
and plan on the extractor/ejector putting cases back to where
you grab with your fingers behind this bridge.
Don't plan on throwing them all out on the ground.

Reason B for not copying scaled up WK was a hard deal to
engineer to carry all the parts on the breach block
and........too many laid claim to owning it.Ed

Matt- Congrats on shooting your new 12GaFH. Now there are at least 10 of them. BTW I use a leupold 2.5X compact on my NEF and have more than enough eye relief. Those leupolds can take any amout of recoil. Warne rings and no issues. Without a muzzel brake the recoil would be more than the Lott your used to even though the load was quite mild. Next time try the bluedot starter powder and 220 gr of H50BMG. That will wake you up! I've never had any signs of sticky extraction even with my heaviest loads. The .50BMG brass will expand though and you'llneed that hydraulic press to resize those cases once it does. At the pressures your running now that probably wont be a problem, but it will be later. I have some tricks that help when you get to that point.-Rob
ED- That action is looking good! Good Job!-Rob

ED- action is looking really good. I'm gonna work up to more powder, but may do it kind of slowly! QL shows going up to 175 grains.

Rob- that's what scares me, that this is probably one of the mildest loads using that bullet. It did recoil a mite, like you said.

Any ideas on powder and charge to run those aluminum darwins? I know Rob mentioned 3031, but I don't currently have a can of that. I do have h50bmg, blue dot, re 17, H4895, and H4350. Will any of these work with the aluminum for a lighter load? No one with me would shoot the brute. And if I do get a can of 3031, can I fire it off with 15 grains of blue dot?

Thanks to all for the help, now we just need a few more of the 12 gafh!

Matt- I know 3031 works and see no reason the you cant use 15 gr of bluedot as a starter. Reduce the 3031 load by 10 gr. You dont want to shoot a light bullet with a slow powder.-Rob

I have used 65 grains of Blue Dot alone in a plastic Federal 3.5" hull to get the 1400-grain Lead Darwins up to Mach 1.

Try 65 grains of Blue Dot with the aluminum slug, in the Nohbozo 3.85" case, just fill it up with fiber wads.
A gas seal will make it better.
That will be less kick than a 2.25 oz 3.5" 12ga factory turkey load, and faster.

IIRC, Ed has used 80 grains of Blue Dot with heavier slugs than the Aluminum NoBozo Darwin.

See if you can beat Ed's max Blue Dot load.

QuickLOAD:

Aluminum Nohbozo Darwin .729-cal, call it 350 grains roughly in weight.
Seated to 4.180" COL.
About an inch of bullet length (1.020") seated into the case.
3.850" case length.
1.350" bullet length.
Assume 340-grains of H2O gross case capacity for Nohbozo brass.
Etc.

QL:

IMR-3031
210.0 grains >>> 2766 fps ... 22,667 PSI 103% case fill
189.0 grains >>> 2435 fps ... 16,422 PSI 93% case fill

Blue Dot
110.0 grains >>> 2812 fps ... 23,520 PSI 62% case fill
100.0 grains >>> 2622 fps ... 19,195 PSI 56% case fill

QL seems to overestimate velocities by about 200 fps in 12GaFH.
It may overestimate the percent of case fill too.

It would be neet to have a bolt action 12GFH on the PH action when it comes out.

.775" rim and casehead
.800" belt
3.25" long
2" body length ahead of belt and a 1" neck with ghost shoulder
15 thou taper over 2" of case body.
.760" at the neck
.729 bullet

I already got a similiar one here, the 729HE/12gaHE I call it
that I have made by running .729" 12ga expander into
one of my 700H 3.25" cases, To start with they have .770" rim,
.790" belt, .775" base, and .740" mouth. And .370" long belt.
Your figures give a .250" belt which is too short for
this size of case.Looks silly to me like other short belt so-called
700 one. With it expanded to 12ga it would have a .770" mouth and
only .005" inch taper. And you don't need a ghost shoulder as the
inside taper back to the thicker base, is more than the outside
taper, thus gripping slug tighter at base of slug anyway.
Guy out west is doing one on BMG action
and I told him it wasn't best taper for bmg pressures,
but he is trying. But I don't push the idea with poor taper.
And my 700H may be THE first big bore to fire in a PH.
Big bore defined as bigger than a Gibbs............Ed

Ok....Ok....

But what about the 45/70 for DG?

I am with you on the belt...

so to get 15 thou taper you have to inside ream?
Can the PH take a .800" belt?

12 Gauge rimless... has its time come?
With all the 12GFH bullets and other 12 Gauge slugs this is a cool idea if you can get enough taper (15 thou)

Boomie-I set my belt at .790", as the PH has
.805" bolt, for better clearance.
Only problem you can't call it 12ga and be exempt
for sporting use, so you'd have to get another cartridge
sporting exemption, and that's a big pain.
And as far as variety of slug/bullets for my 700HE
there is about 5-6 bullet makers out there, one who
can even make 3 weights.And there's a sabot that
I made work in my 700..Ed

WOO HOO!
Lee called yesterday to say they were shipping my .730" sizer.
If it gets here before 6-15-09, it will have been less than 8 months.
Now I can cast and size the slugs in Linotype, Rippalloy, Zinc, ETC.
Maybe Lee can make it a standard item?
They only charged me about $100 for the 1.25"x12tpi push-through die.
They seem to have the tooling now.

Boomie- Remember the reason for the 12GaFH's existance. Its politically correct and isnt classified as a DD. Can fire regular 2 3/4 shotgun shells and cant be confused with any weapons of war. You go right ahead and make anything you want, but other than sticking something big in a PH action, I cant see any advantages over a already registered .700.
RIP-Great on the sizer!-Rob

This is a shotgun "x" bullet as it were and 4 side projectiles.

Thought this could be interesting for the high powered GFH series.

Even just using an x projectile would increase the range of the shotgun.

Maybe machine them out of brass.

What say you?

Way too much work!-Rob

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
Way too much work!-Rob

Yep, that is bound to be less effective than Rob's Quadracone load. It would pattern wider than buckshot, even that central X-slug would likely tumble on release of the contraption at the muzzle.

Rob,
Having now played with "The Judge" in both the 3"-chambered Magnum (blued, 36.8 oz.) and 2.5"-chambered Ultra-Lite (stanless, 22.4 oz.),
both with 3" barrels,
I see why you would make stepped brass for it.
The base of chamber is 45 Long Colt, and that tapers abruptly to .410 shotgun, like a long throat to the cylinder face.
More pronounced than any 12Ga NEF-er rechambered with a Nohbozo 12GaFH 3.85" reamer.

I'll just stick with the steel-cased Russian and Winchester hi-brass factory loads.
Five balls of 000 buck or 1/2 to 11/16 oz. of various snake and rat shot.
Aim for the face to blind "it" with the muzzle flash.

Still waiting on the .730" Lee slug sizer.

RIP- No. 6 shot literally covers a B27 target at 7 yrds. A face full of that aught to Blind/deter the most agressive gangsta till you give him 4 more loads of OOB. Yes stepped brass is a must for the Judge!-Rob

Rob,
If Nohbozo ever offers any factory Quadracone .410 3" or 2.5" loads I will be interested.