Just some 12 Gauge ramblings:

Interesting that W. W. Greener, in The Gun and its Development, Ninth Edition records the first British military musket as a 12-bore matchlock.

My first shot as a child was with a 12 Gauge Ted Williams Model 300. It was a kick that is still going.

My first whitetail was a button buck killed with a 12 Gauge Foster slug from a Marlin Model 120 pump smoothbore 20" ImpCyl, rifle sighted "slug gun" at Fort Knox, KY.

Long live the 12 Gauge!

Imagine Ye Olde Zabala Honchos 10Ga SXS, but chopper lumped and rebarreled to 12GaFH. 13 pounds sounds perfect.

quote:

Imagine Ye Olde Zabala Honchos 10Ga SXS chopper lumped, rebarreled to 12GaFH:

Image the splattering of low grade metallurgy all over your multi-colored pancho and sombrero'...

You have to beef up the hammer strength and
also rework pin to protrude out to .850"
for best results.I added an extra coil spring
behind hammer, but other ways would be to get
a stronger spring which is a pivot spring
on the right side of hammer sharing the
hammer pin or add a left hand version
of the spring on the other side of hammer.Ed

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:

quote:

Imagine Ye Olde Zabala Honchos 10Ga SXS chopper lumped, rebarreled to 12GaFH:

Image the splattering of low grade metallurgy all over your multi-colored pancho and sombrero'...

I see you have no knowledge of the righteous metallurgy of the Zabala Honchos.

quote:

no knowledge of the righteous metallurgy of the Zabala Honchos.

Apparently not... I do, however have direct knowledge that the season for shooting large bore rifles and consuming the Trinity of Ratzeputz, Doornkaat, and Killepitsch is upon us...shall we make contact with agent 43 in the former Prussia...???

ED- Thought so! Good news is I know how to make left hand springs on the trusty manual lathe! I had the same problem with a Ar15 lower that i used for a .50BMG upper. I hade some strobger springs and away I went.
Ed- why not just make a longer firing pin for the NEF and replace the original?
RIP- sounds like I should make two sets of springs and Pins while I'm at it. I should have my NEF next week and will figure it out then.
What do you guys think of my starting H50BMG load?-Rob

ER SHAW makes or used to make 12 Ga Rifled barrels that were 1.2 straight walled tubes. If you got a beater Browning BSS and did the Jeffe manuver by cutting the barrels from the monoblock and boring them out ,threading the blocks and barrels and soldering the tubes together with some ribs you could have a pretty good double that would hold the low pressures of the 12 GaFH-NEF load. I cant estimate balance, but I'm sure i could get some pointers from B. Searcy. I would estimate this could be done easily for under $4K.

Rob-That is a good load and won't have to
work hard resizing.They mentioned Zabala double
10ga above. I had one and was thinking of
monoblocking in heavy 12ga barrels, but
didn't have means/money to do it. Traded it.
Would have been real nice. Well maybe sometime.
Looked at different 12ga doubles but barrels
way to thin at the muzzle for our loads.Ed

ANY one know the contact information for Bridger Bullets?

Or any supplier of ANY 800-1500 gr plus slugs for use in the 12GAFH?

Thanks

As a note, the load I'm playing with is incredibly inefficient in a 24 inch barrel and muzzel pressure will be substantial(i.e. the need for a thick walled muzzel). If you used a 32 inch tube like we do for .50BMG competition guns, then the velocity will go up over 1700fps and efficiency will be 80-90% with much lower muzzel pressures. Ah the trade-off's we have to make when playing with these big bores.
BTW that load has the same Muzzel energy as a .458 Lott firing a 500gr bullet at 2250fps. However, the Darwins enterence hole is what a lott exit hole wants to be someday! SD may not be as good but so what!-Rob

Rob and Ed,
Great White Sharks of the 12Gauge:
Swim on and drop some more morsels for this feeding frenzy on the 12gaFH.

This little parasite fish will be waiting for any chum that comes my way.

How about a "Nitro for Black Powder Express" equivalent load around 20Kpsi for the NEF?
Fast rifle powder and lots of filler?

Nitro Express load when 40Kpsi is attainable with suitable action?
RL-15 or Varget and filler?
H4350 or H4831 and no filler?

I don't have capability to do the internal ballistics on AccuLoad3, it poops out on such large cartridges ...

The NEF-- our brass case will do 26K. For shotgun primers,
we in essence have our black powder equivalent with
our 4227 loads with wads. Use wads even in our long brass
cases, not fiber or loose fill. Eliminates chances of
barrel ringing, and worrying about uniform ignition.
With the BMG primers the best powders,
for those equivalents where using partial fill with wads,
is RL15 for slugs to 870 gr and RL19 for 1000gr up.It is
high energy, but pressure increases perfectly/safely on an
even safe scale, matched to the powder increases.The pressure
down the barrel increases evenly without the peak pressures
at the chamber having to go up twice as fast to do it.
Example - lets say that peak is 15k and muzzle is 4k, to get
6k psi at muzzle the peak will be about 22k, not 30k like
other powders would do to deliver what you want at muzzle.
Also have a few guys using small primers, with starter powders,
and RL15 getting good, safe, uniform, velocity increases...Ed

I think with the 12gfh SXS idea you will need a separate server on AR to handle the views. Everyone from the African crew, to shotgun only states to the guys who design computer games will be all over it.
My vote would be SXS cape gun idea to cut out a lot of the regulation expense. One barrel rifled, one smooth. Fowl to elephant(and zombie of course for the games guys) two pulls of the trigger

RIP...another question...

the pictures you posted with the long plastic cases show a slug with a flat nose...the pictures I got from Brooks Moulds for the 1400 Darwin shows a double ended slug with a cup point/bottom...

Did you fill the cup with lead or have slug mould for a different maker?

ANY one try a multiple slug load like two 730 Terminators or three 500 gr slugs or balls???.

I'm running into problems finding heavy slugs and I'm not yet ready to start castin my own.

How about a lead source for round lead bars about 0.750"dia and I can turn out my own slugs?

Thanks

FOOBAR,
You got the right Darwin.
It is symmetrical in exterior shape, except one end is a "cup point" and the other end is a truncated cone FN.

The slug is reversible, like a football, it flies either way.

It is only a mattter of time before a copper monometal "Darwin" is available in every rifle and shotgun caliber imaginable!



Karl,
Like Ed, I once owned a Zabala 10 Gauge SXS and traded it for no good reason.

Me too but they are still in production according to the website http://www.zabalahermanos.com/E213-MAGNUM_EN.htm

What we need is someone to turn their garage into a 12GFH factory. pump out brass and heavy double barreled 12 gauge shotguns. Rob has got the Brass down, all we need the double barrels

If I'd had the E-213 I'd still have it.It's new tech. It is an alloy action
and smooth alloy barrels and could stand our heavy loads in a long case with
some of the nose heavy slugs with locked on plastic wads.
Like heavy Brenekkes, etc.. Or our Aluminum dart slug.
But they cost 4 times as much as the older
Zabala Mercury and Zephyr and other older used models.
Anybody gets one I will set it up with hairy slug loads.Ed

Yeah RIP, that's the one...the Brooks moulds picture only showed the cupped side.

Have you done any peneteration tests or expansion test for both points?

I take it you cast your own slugs. Are those base pour or nose pour...which is the nose???

Those cartridges are absolutely beautiful.

We/someone/everyone needs to talk someone into making and selling them in small quantities for us small timers that only need a hundred or so...made to order.

I would pay a dollar apiece rather than spending $500 to get set up for casting and only cast 50 or so and never shoot them all up the rest of my life.


Enjoy your toys.

Ed do you mean the monoblocking idea with heavy barrels? Or as is?

Karl.

Karl-Just as they are- They have them in 10, 12, and 20 ga.
Actions and barrels Chrome-Molly, and the barrels are monoblocked.
12ga is 3" chamber. Use 4227,4759, VV110 with brass or plastic,
and shotgun primers. If you reamed to 3.5" you could do 5-600gr
slug at nearly NEF levels. Like 85-95gr in plastic and 95-105 in brass
like RMC cases. Can you get Zabalas over there, I don't know of
anyone selling here when I checked a while back. The one you
want are the E213 Magnum, not the regular 213.You could use heavy
Brenekkes, the Lyman 525gr, and others designed for smoothbores.Ed

Once I get the NEF from HELL finalized, I've just got to do the monoblock gambit on a BSS. Always wanted to see if my skills are up to it. Unfortunately those things are getting pricey these days. With ER SHAW rifled barrels that would indeed be sweet particularily if designed around the 12 GaFH NEF load! gotta do the calculations to see how it would balance out.-Rob

quote:

... gotta do the calculations to see how it would balance out.-Rob

Rob,
I think it is going to need the Zabala 10-Gauge to get enough weight to balance two rifled tubes. Even then it may need some lead or mercury in the butt to balance the rifled barrels and will end up about 13 pounds with proper barrel length selection to balance.
It will certainly take more lead or mercury in the butt of the BSS to balance one, and maybe be a bit lighter and shorter in the barrel.

FOOBAR:
The only penetration test so far was with the lowest load of 50 grains of IMR-4227 and 1400-grain 30:1 lead Darwin.

One over pressurized miniature (about 1/2 gallon size) propane cylinder vaporized completely.

A large empty propane tank like for the backyard grill got only an NFL football-sized dent in it and the cylinder was shoved backward about 5 feet. A 50-cal muzzle loader 348-grain conical at about 2000 fps penetrated the same steel tank through and through with no denting.

I am awaiting a sizing die so I can make linotype Darwins properly sized.

Later.

Rob- monoblocking is the way to get the best barrel thickness,
and then you weight the butt to balance. The Zabala E213
Magnum still has shotgun proportions but it is strong alloy.
I think muzzle is about .900", not the heaviest, but heavier
than most doubles by .040" to ..060" or more.

Rip- on your Darwin loads using the Fed cases you can go little
more powder. Go up slow, until recoil stops you, or basecup expands
about .012", or extraction starts dragging.Ed

Ed,
I recall you suggested 71 grains as a max of the IMR-4227 with 1400-grain Darwin for the Mossberg.
When I get these chronographed (50, 55, 60, 65), I will go on to 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75 grains in the NEF Ultra Slug and stop at any warning signs from my shoulder, the cases, the gun, or the chronograph.

The Zabala E213 10-Gauge is "chrome-molybdenum steel" like most fine firearms these days, if not stainless.

I am puzzled as to why you keep calling it "alloy" since all steels are alloys and we usually only speak of "alloy" gun parts in a disparaging way to refer to cheap aluminum alloy parts as opposed to steel.

Please enlighten me.

It is a cultural thing with us rednecks.
We use the term alloy to denote Chrome-Moly
steel as opposed to steel that has mainly
carbon in it. Does anyone know of importers
here that have the 213 Magnums? Ed

Chronograph data:
12GaFH NEF, 24" barrel, .729" groove, 1:35" twist
1400-grain 30:1 lead Darwin
Unsized from Brooks Tru-Bore mould, nose pour, base hollowpointer
Lube: Black indelible marker, nothing else
50 degrees F
Federal plastic 3.5" hulls roll crimped to 3.25"
Factory primed, brass plated steel base
Chronograph distance: 25 yards
Average of 5 shots each
Powder: IMR-4227 charges of 50, 55, 60, 65 grains

Assume BC = 0.150

Correction added for 50, 55, 60, 65-grain velocities to correct to MV were 16, 18, 20, 30 fps respectively, according to external ballistic calculation. The faster slugs lose more velocity over the first 25 yards.

Corrected to MV:

50-grain: 817 fps
55-grain: 862 fps
60-grain: 921 fps
65-grain: 1012 fps

Roughly, that is a low of 800 fps (50-grain charge) and a high of 1000 fps (65-grain charge), and each grain of powder adds about 13.3 fps to the 1401-grain slug.

Chronograph shielding:
Pro Chrono Plus on tripod at 25 yards
Steel sawhorse 2 yards in front of chrono
3/4" plywood sheet 2'x4' leaned against sawhorse, angled forward, to block any wads from the chrono body. Only the sky screens and their supports are visible above the plywood.

Base expansion checked again:

Unfired: .801"
50-grain load: .804"
55-grain load: .808"
60-grain load: .808"
65-grain load: .808"

It seems the steel bases may expand more but recoil back down to .808" and they all ejected flawlessly. The NEF will pop them about 10 feet back over my right shoulder when it ejects.

It seems like velocities are climbing a bit too fast with the last step to 65 grains of IMR-4227 with the 1400-grain Darwin.

That will be my limit for plastic hulls, to use in the Mossberg and NEF.

Some strong, all-brass hulls and different powder will be required to get the 1400-grain Darwin to 1400 fps.

I am approaching the sound barrier here!

Energy of 3,185 foot-pounds for a 1400 grain bullet at 1012 fps.

Thanks for the calc, boomie.
The lead Darwin is a "Triple-Slug" over 3 times the weight of a 1-ounce Foster slug.
At least it is easy to get to "Triple-Thou" foot-pounds, even at subsonic velocity, and few 12-guage slugs can do that!

Even unlubed and unsized, they all shot into one ragged hole, vertically elongated, at 25 yards. I just had a plain piece of cardboard behind the chronograph. The earthen berm behind that had a 3" diameter hole that I probed with a stick to about 2 feet deep, but I did not have time for lead mining today.

Those 20 Darwins weigh just over 4 pounds. I may go back with pick and shovel ... melt them down and recycle.

Way better accuracy than with a Foster should be very easy to attain with the properly sized, lubed, Linotype alloy slugs, in a rifled barrel.

Then they will hold up well for accuracy at what top end velocity? 2100 fps.
Oh my sore shoulder!

I may need a Triple Foster Beer after shooting these Triple Foster Darwins at supersonic speeds.

Until then, this Bud's for y'all.
Get some Foster's for Karl.

quote:

velocity? 2100 fps

Bench mounted maybe..!!

And Ratzeputz to Macifej.
Of course, top-end 12GaFH loads with brass, copper, or hard lead slugs will require more than an NEF and plastic hulls.
Strong brass, more gun weight, greater action strength, and a little more barrel length than 24" would be O.K. with me.

Any luck on your aerobatic varmint safari yet...??

I had the chance to go squirrel hunting on a strange new property today, said to have red fox squirrels a yard long from nose to tail tip, but I foresook that to play with the NEF.
Such are the sacrifices we must make for the sake of furthering understanding of the 12GaFH.

BIP went on the squirrel safari without RIP today.

longer barrel helps - soon will do pic of my 36"
NEf with added on piece. Didn't want to post picss
untill I had a couple hundred rounds through it.
Adding my extra barrel length to yout readings would
get us to 1130-1160. But with Rem case which has
15gr less volume adds a little more extra,
due to generating a little more pressure.
My Rem cases have thicker walls and less room
in the bottom due to thicker basecup plastic
around the sides of the primer pocket.
I have to push my wads into the Rem cases
with a lot of force. Real tight seal.And lube
with a barrel real smooth from lot of shooting.
Some say that real tight fit= 5% more velocity.
I got around 1300 in REM case, with 65gr.
But my chrono still may be little high.I think
your Chrono may be a better brand than mine ..
It is safe to go up two grain at a time to 69gr
them add a grain at a time. Measure expansion.
The same velocity gains you get will take less powder
due to powder burning cleaner.When I got to top
load there was no residue in barrel not even
the little wisps of sooty smoke.Ed

Ed,
My chamber max ID is .811 just ahead of the rim.
I think that the Federal brass-plated-steel base cups of those plastic hulls must be springing back from .811" to .808".

I am quite satisfied with +1000 fps in a 24" barrel, with plastic hulls that can be used in the Mossberg Ulti-Mag as well as the NEF Ultra Slug. +3100 ft-lbs muzzle KE. Ought to kill a deer or pig with authority. Might even cause them to be yanked through space as if they were in Hollywood special effects harnesses. I know that propane tank was, even with a mere 800 fps slug.

I will proceed to the brass case loads for higher velocity and slower powders.


So this is the lighter side of 12GaFH loads:

(from the handy RCBS.LOAD ver3.0 recoil calculator)

1401-grain Lead Darwin
(weight of wads neglected)
65 grains of IMR-4227
1010 fps in 24" barrel

Recoil

11.5# gun: 81.7 ft-lbs @ 21.4 fps
12.5# gun: 75.1 ft-lbs @ 19.66 fps
13.0# gun: 72.2 ft-lbs @ 18.91 fps

14.5# gun: 64.8 ft-lbs @ 16.95 fps
15.5# gun: 60.6 ft-lbs @ 15.87 fps
15.75# gun: 59.6 ft-lbs @ 15.61 fps
17.0# gun: 55.2 ft-lbs @ 14.46 fps

Basic NEF Ultra slug with scope and slip-on pad:
11.5#
add 4 cartridges (1#) in butt carrier = 12.5#, or 5 cartridges in butt carrier plus one in chamber = 13# (1/4 pound per shell)

Mossberg 835 Ulti-Mag with lead shot and epoxy butt fill:
14.5#
Add 4 cartridges in magazine = 15.5#
plus one in chamber = 15.75#
Add 5 more cartriges in a butt carrier or at left side of action carrier (+1.25# more) = +17#

You're gonna need to live on a diet of Fox Squirrel Carcass and Ratzeputz to carry an 18 lb gun through thick woods...

Your getting gun weight for good shooting, my Nef now
is over 16 lbs now.. I lube with the white
lube used on ML slugs, it all helps.Ed

Ed,
Next time I load the plastic-hull loads I will lube the Darwins.

Sent Rob a 3/4" collet and a sample of the 3.5" RMC brass. He said he could machine the collet open enough to accept the thicker brass.

Have also ordered some of the "NoHboHzo 12 Gauge Shotgun of Nevada, LLC" brass rims and threaded cases, and some .729/1080-grain brass slugs.

Also waiting for Macifej to send some .729/1000-grain slugs ...and your man in Alabama is apparently still waiting for his copper cup supplier ... I have an order for some of his .729/815-grain JHP slugs, as per your recommendation ... been waiting about 2 months for those.

Next will try some brass case loads. Do need a heavier gun for those!

Thinking a Barrett M99 would make a great 25 pound bench mule for brass case load development.

Maybe even a godforsaken shellholder-actioned 50BMG could be converted to accept the 12-guage rim, heavy, long barrel with tank brake?

quote:

Maybe even a godforsaken shellholder-actioned 50BMG could be converted to accept the 12-guage rim, heavy, long barrel with tank brake?

Giant mutant squirrels got you intimidated Doc..??

You guys might consider making a 24" heavy straight taper barrel M203 type set-up...the weight will kill that recoil no problema amigos...

My shellholder action used for the 700He
would be a good test gun. But your NEf
can easily hold 4 lbs of extra lead to make
a good test gun from the bench.
Off the bench a steel block 2" square
and 10 inches long duct taped on bbl will
do for testing. When hunting off hand
you won't notice recoil.Ed