J. B. Wood lives in Corydon, Kentucky, go Wildcats.

Punch out some pins, right to left if as originally installed, and start removing the parts from the bottom of the action,
which is a model of strength and simplicity.

The hammer spring is doubled, two tails, no room for doubling it again,
need heavier spring wire.

Suppose Rob dies before he gets around to mass producing heavier springs, heaven forbid ...
Is there a commercial source for heavier springs, or a custom spring maker?

Maybe not all springs are created equal, and the occasional NEF-er has a weak spring?

Not all springs are equal especialy after setting
with tension on them for years. I just took out mine
from NEF 12GA FH(long barrel one and in three years
its arms are only 90 degrees as opposed to new
ones at 120 deg. O had a few here as part of the
work and the falling block designing and put in a new
one, and set its long arm up on a peg I put in right side
to get more tension. It does fire soft bmg primers now
but still needed helper coil spring for the harder
ones. A properly heatreated one made with bigger
wire should do it. I found one, but it was wound the
wrong way to work on the right side of the hammer.

Also I still have the Encore to sell, set up and
weighted for hairy loads. ED

RIP-That was the dissasembly guide I too looked at and why I thought the spring was a double wound type. SOOO glad thats not the case. I learned to make coil springs on a Lathe about 42 years ago by my uncle who made them for racing engines. Its actually fun and easy to do. Right hand/ left hand all easy. What guage spring wire do you think is optimum? Otherwise I need to order a few different sizes and see what works best.
Next question is what do you guys think of a 12 GaFH NOHBOZO LOADER? Nothing more than a scaled up Lee Loader set for the 12GaFH? I think I can make these a whole lot cheaper than a ammomaster die set and this should get a whole lot more guys into buying NEF's and joining in on the fun! Priming problems will be history as well as the need for custom adapters etc. We still need a more reliable fireforming process though or a reliable source of ED's straight walled cases for the masses.-Rob

Rob,
Regarding NOHBOZO springs: I am a bozo at spring making, will have to defer to you and Ed.

Lee Loaders? Love the idea. I am familiar with the concept. That is how I started reloading, to feed a S&W M29 44 Mag in the 70's.

I will get the springs out of both of my NEF-ers this weekend and do any measurements I can, guage the wire, etc.

Rob... have you registered a domain name for a future 12GFH website for all things GFH?
Might be putting the cart before the horse but yer own website for this is a must IMHO.

The opening page can say "Welcome to hell" then the sound of one going off

A one stop shop for rims, bullets, cases mods ect.

Boomstick-Not a bad idea at all!-Rob

Will your website have a fourum?
It would be quite interesting to have all your Hellians united.

I would love your Loader From Hell setup. But as my USH should be here by monday, and I need to start buying reloading gear (still have nothing) I'm excited to see what you end up putting out there for us new converts to hell

At this point, isn't it more Cartridge From Hell instead of 12ga?

I can see the headstamp now "No. 12 CFH"

The 12GaFh is a package. Gun, bullets, cases, rims and reloading tools. Remember- The road to hell is paved with good intentions and H50BMG!-Rob

Punch those pins out right to left on the NEF-ers:

The tiny little springs powering my NEF-ers looks like this, wire diameter 0.065", whatever gauge that is,
disappointing, only a one-tail spring:

It has short tail also as you could call it.
That one pictured is weak as the tails are
not 120 plus degrees apart. If made from
.080" wire, double wound it would still fit
on the shaft.The long tail rests on a ledge
in the action but on mine I raised it up and
put it on a pin I added. Now able to fire
soft bmg primers if they are set perfect.Ed

40 degrees F on 1-11-09
H50BMG charges 130-170 grains
15 grains Blue Dot starter powder
CCI 209 primer
Nohbozo 1085-grain brass Darwins
RMC 3.5" cases
COL 4.040"
Fiber wad and nitro card filler
24" NEF-er barrel, 1:35" twist

Chrono at 25 yards with shielding
Assume BC = 0.150
for correction to muzzle velocity
average for 3 shots each charge

Charge of H50BMG ... MV ... Extreme Spread of velocity

130 grains ... 1094 fps ... 12 fps
140 grains ... 1155 fps ... 6 fps
150 grains ... 1220 fps ... 16 fps
160 grains ... 1315 fps ... 17 fps
170 grains ... 1377 fps ... 6 fps

No unburnt powder left in the barrel with the 160 and 170 grain charges.

Zero case head expansion with the RMC brass, of course, all ejected readily, mild primer appearance. Very low pressures, surely.

H50BMG should be even better with a 1400-grain Triple Foster lead Darwin.

The CCI 209 with Blue Dot starter and fiber wad and nitro card filler seems to be a reliable and uniform method, even for the slowest of slow powders, and the weak factory hammer of the NEF-er.

Rip - Good testing. You can't beat the real
slow powder loads, as long as you have the
knowledge and patience to use starter powder.
Those RMC thick wall slug cases, for turned cases,
have worked out very good for me.

Here is picture my NEF, soon to be, 8ga gun.
It weighs 15 lbs. The hollow butt and hollows
in the forearm are weighted. It has a neat recoil
barrel ring I added so foremarm stays put.
It has internal brake on barrel.
Second picture is some aluminim cored jkt slugs
RG made, weighing 385 gr. Full .730", hollowpoint,
and one I filled nose with glue gun. 3600 in
the Savage with our long case.Ed

Ed,
Nice rig.
Is that the pistol-grip-storage stock that Gun Parts Corporation sells? The advertizing I saw on that one claimed room to store lots of ammo in the butt ... so lots of room for lead or mercury, maybe even tungsten, eh?

I have some of RG's 715-grain JHPs that I want to try in the 3.5" plastic hulls while I am waiting for the Darwin sizer die from Lee.

What is a top IMR-4227/H4227 load for the 715-grainer in the 3.5" plastic hull?
(Taking notes this time, or will have to search back to previous postings by you about RG's slugs.)

RIP- good chrono data. Excellent extreme velocity spreads too! Any accuracy observations?
Can you stuff 220gr of H50BMG in those cases with the priming powder? I estimate you will see 1800-1900 fps and still remain below 25Kpsi.
Did you measure the ID of the spring circle? I need to make a mandrel for making the springs.
I'm going to order some 0.080-0.90 spring wire and make a few stronger springs. I'll send them to both of you. Ed's approach of adding a pin is also easy to do. Drill a hole and add a roll pin to provide more spring force. With a stronger spring you should have no further issues with BMG primers.-Rob

Hey Rob, thanks.
Jolly good show on the springs.
Ed's pistol grip stock is ambidextrous, eh?
I'll get my wee spring out and measure the ID of the coil.

Those 3.5" RMC cases hold 310 grains of H50BMG filled to the top. More with a drop tube or merely tapping/vibrating to settle, and even more with compression.
I am sure I can get 220 grains in easily by leaving out some wads and cards, could even seat the bullet out farther for 240 grains or more. The 15 grains of Blue Dot merely fills the hemispherical bottom of the case.

I think it is same stock. I got it from ebay.
Yes it has big storage in the base now full of
steel bars solid. Rob is right about getting
good velocities with 220-230 gr of HBMG.
What is best to do is to go as far as you can with
that weight bullet, then go to the Darwin testing.
That way you get feel of where to start the Darwin
testing. If you get 1085gr to 1800 that's 7700 ft lbs.
My top load in 3.5 plastic with 715gr RG HP
jacketed slug is 95gr of 4227. I had used cases so I
put the 6 point crimp back down hard on the hollowpoint nose
of the slug, with a 1/8" card, a 1/2" wad and a 1/4" wad.
One thing I do for the star crimping is to use a dowel
to push the center of the star crimp real tight onto
the slug. If you have trouble getting the star crimp
to seat right you can put in a thin overshot card.Ed

Noted, Ed.

Rob,
The spring coil ID I have is about 0.255", about 1/4".
The rule in the pics has the mm and inch scales run parallel from the same zero origin:

Hey, y'all.
I have a PM warning me about the "Hollow Charge Effect" of the hemispherical base of an RMC case.
Sumbuddy who know may take credit for this warning or discuss it futher?

It is certainly a good shape for concentrating the blast of the starter powder into the H50BMG.

Is RMC nuts for making such a strong base?
So far so good.
The first thing to give will be the 209 primer, but they are still tight and mild looking.

Recoil of the top load I fired in the NEF-er noted above, adding starter powder weight to main charge weight and adding the wad and cards weight to bullet weight, from my 11.5-pound rig:

about 159 ft-lbs and 29.8 fps

Both the RMC and Lake City BMG brass I made my
700 from have thick rounded corners. And BMG
runs high pressures. First of all shaped
charges use high explosives with a wave front
4-5 times faster than the propellants in brass cases. Propellants act different, I've shot
my 700 on LC case with light slug, with case
full of Blue Dot, brass extracted easy.The
reason RMC makes bases thick is for safety
but also it has to be that thick for primer
hole for the long shotgun primer. And the reason for starter powders is to insure good ignition so that a secondary ignition doesn't
happen with the slug stuck in the barrel
as an obstacle, which could make the chamber
a bomb. Ed

RIP- I think you will be fine up to 220gr but without a muzzel brake it will sting a mite! Mine with a built in muzzel brake feels like around 100ft-lbs off my calibrated shoulder.
I think that there is no way a hemisphical case with slow powders will exhibit any kind to shaped carge effect! You need the ability to vaporize metal and a extemely high velocity gas front to cause that effect. My only worry is that in any type of rough handling of a loaded case you loose the ignitor charge and have a double concussion. I know that happened with 700NE rounds and they solved it by eventually using .50BMG primers. With that said, the way you are using paper and wads to separate things its hard to see how that problem could occur.

Yes as long as starter and main load are separated
with paper/plastic the starter load stays put. I shook
some just to see and they stayed put. I was using
RL15 on 600gr slugs. Bruce told me the last big bunch
of 700NE cases was made with BMG primers and some
had to do a little beefing up the springs work.
Even with a little faster of the slow stick powders,
if you wanted more tham the HBMG would do, you wouldn't
have no blowing out through base problems, just the
RMC case would expand above the base like our BMG based
one and be hard to extract. Then next fastest stick
powders to use if needed are, Retumbo, VV170.
and RL25 in that order.Ed

Ed,
Maybe a 2-ply Kleenex disc
between Blue Dot and main charge
instead of single-ply?
Sure will be nice not to have to split those Kleenexes into their separate plies.

Rob,
I may need a fifty-pound sissy bag if I don't get a brake soon.

And about the lack of accuracy target with the latest round of chronography:

I do it in the blackberry patch with a target board leaned up against a small tree, 5 yards behind the 25-yard shielded chronograph.

Unfortunately I was careless enough to center the bullseye on the tree trunk.

I wanted to get a composite 30-yard group of fifteen shots.

However, the second shot felled the tree and took the target with it.

Light and weather were fickle.
No time to spare, I merely continued shooting through the chronograph ears (no sky screens needed, just clouds overhead) despite the vanished target.

Maybe next time I'll do better.

Oh,yes, those 15 shots did make a nice single hole in the sloping clay bank berm about 10 yards behind the target tree.
I probed it with a stick and found it to go about 3 feet.
I got a shovel and dug out 9 of the 15 before I gave up. The other six must have gone deeper.

Some could be fired again, others got a bit deformed by hitting rocks or other slugs.
The engraving of the rifling on the brass Darwins was adequate.
They obviously stabilize in the 1:35" twist even at these low velocities.

Member trk on the cast bullet forum has been casting roundballs of silver-bearing, lead-free solder (SN-96.5%/AG-3%/Cu-0.5%, roughly), and says they are harder than the 95/5 (Sn/Sb)lead-free solder.

An "Unleaded Darwin" might weigh about 900 to 950 grains? And how hard, and what diameter as cast from a mould that makes .730" 30:1 slugs?

I have been wondering what to do with that pesky copper-contaminated silver solder.

On the 700RLG I moved from H50BMG to Rl-25 and then to Rl-22 and then varget for max velocities. Hit well over 3300 fps with 1000 gr bullets and had no pressure signs. Recoil exceded my ability to withstand it with the best of brakes and stock design. all with a gun weighing 26lbs. I quit there.-Rob

Rob...You have a PM...Thanks

RIP- You will be impressed with the power of this thing when you hit 220grs of powder. I just shot a big ol desert rock and KaPOW blew it to impressive bits. Not a .600Ok but more than a Lott for sure!-Rob

quote:

Recoil exceded my ability to withstand it with the best of brakes and stock design. all with a gun weighing 26lbs. I quit there.-Rob

Are there any videos of this insanity!??

Rob,
You offer weak encouragement by saying the 12GaFH is merely more than a Lott, .458 Lott. Any sissy can handle one of those!

I am well acclimated to 500 A-Square levels of recoil with 570 to 750-grainers in 10.5 to 12.5 pound rifles. That is far more than a .458 Lott, and I have already found a bit more than that with the 12GaFH loads last tested.

I am looking for more kicks with this 50-pound sissy bag. It is two 25-pound bags of "Seven and a Half" Gorilla Taped together.

I will slip it into a denim sleeve from cutoff leg of jeans, and drape it over my shoulder:



This view makes it look sort of like an elephant trunk, so I'll call it the "Elephant Bag" instead of the "Fifty Pound Sissy Bag."
Draped over my shoulder it is very comforting:



I think I am going to need this when I get 1400-grain Linotype Darwins with steel nose-disks over 1400 fps, even with a muzzle brake, at the bench (add weight of steel nose disk to weight of Linotype Darwin).

Of course for offhand shooting at elephants in the field, a muzzle brake and hearing protection alone should be sufficient.



No video requests from me. Don't waste your time on video frivolity.
Back to Nohbozo Laboratory for more mad science, please, and keep us posted.

RIP- I dont know but maybe my brake is more effective than I am giving it credit for. My buddy and I shoot identical NEF's and Hes a novice Big Bore shooter. Neither of us was really bothered by the 220 grs of powder recoil. I'm undoubtably more immune, but I'm surprised you need the sissy bag.
Mississipian - The 26lb Borchardt at full song is absolutely Terrifying! Recovery time is critical too! No vids as yet but if your ever out here your welcome to give it a try!-Rob

I think 1000 grains @ 2,000 fps in a 15lb. gun should be the ticket for this

154 ft lbs of recoil @ 26 fps recoil velocity should be just fine.

quote:

No vids as yet but if your ever out here your welcome to give it a try!-Rob

Thank you for the invitation but I will let you have that one, however I would love to see the 12gafh in action!! The 600 has more that satified my need for power!

Just a point I've failed to make properly before. Could not properly explain why in my opinion the recoil of a .408 Cheytac was worse than a .50BMG. Let me try again! There is recoil and there is recoil! The ft-lb numbers dont tell the complete story! The pressure curves tell the story more accurately actually. The pressure curve of the 12GaFH is down right flat and low at 25Kpsi or less as compared to a .416 Weatherby for example despite the approx. 2X difference in bullet weight. The 12GaFH is not overbore by 50%, not running approx. 60 plus Kpsi and doesnt have a fast high peak pressure spike. Thats what gets you . Thus, the recoil is relatively slow, constant and is felt more like a big push, rather than the high pressure spike type SLAP of a .416 Weatherby. Which I find obnoxious! 154ft-lbs of recoil with a really good break is now 80-90ft/lbs and slow and constant, thus extremely tolerable.
I am honestly surprised by RIPs and my perception of the recoil of this load. Not questioning his observation at all since I have not tried it myself, just curious. Since our guns are identical except for the muzzel brake,it may be the break/no break thing or a combination of break efficency and/or pressure curve differences in his load vs mine. Perception wise, my top load so far was 240grs and I've added no weight to my NEF at all. While recoil was stout, it was more like a light 585 Nyati level to my calibrated shoulder. Hope I've done a better job of explaining my recoil observations this time. This is a very interesting point!-Rob

Rob- Rip- That internal brake with the porting holes
does work as I found in the 10ga testing with an 8200
ft lb load, in the NEf I will redo to 8ga, Muzzle
didn't rise and i think recoil reduced at least 25%.
Along with weighted thumbhole stock as you see in
picture, that takes away about another 25%. I have
shot it one handed twice, from the hip into backstop,
no problem.Of course one handed is easier with thumbhole.
I anm putting internal brakes in the end of my big
bolt 700HE, 8ga Enfield and the Savage 12GA FH.
And also on this one I added an extra stock bolt up
through the grip into the reciever drilled/tapped
right behind the trigger guard. Ed

I WANT VIDEOS!

Rob,
You guys are interpreting my 50-pound sissy bag as a statement that recoil is bad with the meager loads I have tried so far?
No it is not bad.

I have not tried the bag yet. That is for 1400-grainers at higher velocity than the lighter loads so far.

Bullet weight has much greater effects on recoil than the powder charge, whatever the velocity, and you cannot mitigate the bullet mass with a brake unless the muzzle brake is directed rearward toward the shooter. No thank you.

I think I am as recoil tolerant as any Nohbozo here, it is mostly a mental thing until bones break or retinas detach.

However, I am the only Nohbozo here that is at least starting to post some chronograph data and targets from the bench. Even if the targets may be only 30 yards, 5 yards past a shielded 25-yard chronograph, striving for one-hole there is informative.

Busting rocks offhand is cool, but we need some more Nohbozos doing chronography and target posting.

A sissy bag at the bench might encourage more data, and that should not be poopoo-ed.

Getting my muzzlebrake installed is next priority.

Here are a couple of observations;...

One on Rips 50 lb "Elephant trunk"...I would offer the observation that you might be setting yourself up for some very bad shoulder damage by sandwiching you shoulder between the bags...I don't think the rear bag offers much in the way of recoil reduction either because your compressable shoulder meat will absorb the energy before it gets transfered to the rear bag, but it will still crush your shoulder between two relatively incompressable objects that accellerate slowly compared to your shoulder....I use a 25 lb sissy bag all the time when testing heavy loads...I may be relatively inured to recoil but not to the damage to my upper and middle body...i.e., shoulder, neck, skull eyes and brain, back, all my internal organs and ribs caused by the recoil and the torque imposed on my body.

There is a lot of testosterone being produced by this thread and it only takes a couple of bad decisions to ruin any future "fun"...some of you may have brass balls but your body is still nothing but flesh and bone...Think about it...

And not to make too small a point...I have a lousy cold/flu and popped a rib ligament or something from an earlier injury from just a hard sneeze Monday...that's a first...but at 67 I can look forward to more things falling apart as I age....Tear up something in your youth and you will pay fore it in your old age.

The second is as Rob and others have said...it is RECOIL VELOCITY not recoil energy per se, that is the killer...Physics states the obvious F=MA...the faster the recoil the "harder" the perceived AND calculated or actual recoil. Think of it this way...for a quarter miler vehicle I want the RPM, HP and Torque curves to be a quick, high, and narrow and last for those few seconds...for a truck I want the HP and Torque curves to be relatively flat and sustainable over a wide RPM, HP and Torque range. The 460 Weatherby hits hard and fast...the 12GAFH hits hard and slow...recoil velocity is spread over a longer time interval so there is less perceived recoil in the 12 even though the bullet weighs twice the 460 bullet. The actual recoil ENERGY is fairly close to the same level in both.

This 12GAFH is nothing more or less than the old O'Connor/Keith argument scaled up...I like the lightest bullet per caliber and highest velocity I can get for varminting, but I go to the heavy bullet weight and largest calibers for hunting game over about 300 lbs. That's why I really like this 12GAFH concept...but only if I can haul the rifle around and not get destroyed for the rest of my days when I cap one off.

RIP- No offense meant in any way. Yup since my Chrono died you be the man with the numbers! I mis-interpreted your recoil observations in a way that surprised me a little. I was just curious not impuning your position as a major Nohbozo player. I THINK VERY VERY HIGHLY OF YOU AND THUS YOUR WORTHY of disagreeing with. PERIOD! God knows we have disagreed in the past, but so what! I want you to know I appreciate evrything you have done! Never interpret my ramblings any other way!
I think Foobar said it better than I did about felt recoil. Since we are in the .460WBY power level now, it is fair to say though that even at twice the bullet weight, the 12GaFH does have less felt recoil than a .460Wby. I do think its at least consistent with the faster rise and amplitude of the pressure/bullet velocity curve of the .460WBy which results in what we can loosely term as (Recoil acceleration) vs the 12GaFH . Not implying bullet weight isnt a factor, just saying the simple math calulating recoil in ft-lbs doesnt account for the observations we have made. -Rob

Rob,
Proud to be a Nohbozo, thanks.

FOOBAR,
You better get one built and shoot it before you get much older.
You may come to your senses if you delay much longer.

I really do not think the inertia of 25 pounds hanging on my back is going to be anything like an immovable object
like that oak tree I was leaned up against when I touched off my turkey gun.

I am expecting the 25 pounds hanging in front to add 25 pounds to the 11.5-pound NEF-er: 33.5# gun.

If it pinches my chest and fractures ribs, clavicle, and scapula, and pops a lung, I will simply use the Elephant Bag on the bench.
The "back bag" will serve as the rear rest for the NEF-er, and the "chest bag" will be stood up on the bench, both bags still attached together.
Like a "Lead Sled" with no sled.
Like a "Lead Toboggan."


Bullet weight can greatly increase the recoil velocity of a light gun, even with low velocity bullet. Simple Newtonian physics still applies.