The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores 12 Ga From Hell -WOWGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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Rob... at 1700 fps you are touching 7,000 fpe That is 23 fpe per buck! what a deal! any bubba can afford that.  Now to make the fancy double barrel for the extended pinky  577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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So if Ed's barrel length works, or someone makes a custom 30" etc the NEF becomes a 700 nitro level single shot. I think its worth that step even if it triples the cost of the gun. Its still a 700nitro for a grands work! By the way Ed, thanks for the post. I have emailed the zabala guys about distributors to our countries. Karl. | |||
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I would love to take the NEF 12gfh on a cruise in the gulf of Aden and wait for Samali pirates to attack... it is the new safari. Up close and personal plus it is legal in international waters!!! 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Rob...more mail. Ed, Rob, Rip, ANYONE...I did a couple of stub barreled jobbies using donor NEF barrels last year. They came out great and shot as well as I could and the donor barrel was capable of. Do you (ANY/ALL) think there is enough meat left to do a solder in stub barrel 12GAFH if a barrel maker could rifle a straight cylinder 1.20" barrel??? There are several ways of doing the stub section, threaded all the way or part way, a stepped style, use the original chamber or just part or add the rifled sectionto the end of the OEM chamber. Ed...I think you mentioned adding a section of rifled barrel to add more length. The stub barrel wall would be roughly 0.100" thick and the donor stub would be slightly less...total wall thicknes roughly 0.200". I crunched some numbers and using 150 KPSI for the steel strength and 20 KPSI for the load pressure, I came up with a safety factor of 2.5 on the low end and 3.5 on the upper end. I've been thinking about this since last year but decided to wait until I got a NEF heavy barrel 12ga to check out the dimensions and also to watch the progress of the load development. ANYONE...Are there any barrel makers you know of that would cut a 12ga rifled barrel and what the price would be???? Thanks... | |||
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Stand-off might be better so as not to wrinkle your starched white pirate blouse... Like this...?? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfXLEURxozc&feature=related Or some really heavey metal like this...??  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFKT_suwYfQ&NR=1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAtRrbdECQo&feature=related Nothing in the world gets your attention like the 35mm ORK...each one of those bottlenecked rifle looking cases being tossed out at 200RPM per barrel is the size of your forearm... | |||
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Ok- Great shooting and glad you got the crowd at the range impressed.Top 90% fill load for a bullet that heavy would be gotten with Retumbo, in stick powder.NOTHING FASTER. AND DB ball powders-- H869-- AA8700-- surplus ball, WC872/860. It is a damn shame that NEF is missing the boat by not having 6 more inches of barrel. 3 ways to solve it is-One, have expensive comlete barrel and pivot made. Two-Cut off breach section 6" long and stub in a long barrel monoblock style, like a lot of guns are made.Shaw has shotgun barrels but can't get him to make long ones. Pacnor will make them long and straight any size you want. Third and easiest way we discussed above , add on 6-8" with a slight od oversize to screw on barrel like a brake, but of .729" groove size to use to put in magnaport type holes. Or no holes. And use a card/plastic wad under slugs(which you will have in some loads anyway)and it will seal up going from rifled to smooth section; and hotdog an easy extra 100+ fps with 8" added. And the spin that the rifled section has given the slug won't change enough to measure. I got 12" on NEF and it burns up larger loads better. Ed MZEE WA SIKU | |||
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Great stuff! I'd like to try 'em all. Ed's screw-on smoothbore segment, heavy and long and ported, usable with all loads. Rob's muzzle treatment from hell, good for all loads. Vais brake suitable for slow-powder-heavy-slug-only loads, but easily removable for lighter wadded and sabot loads. Gibs' barrel profile will make quite the blunderbuss for a crew-served gun.  And touche' to boom stick on the "Satan's Single Shot." Those chubby little "NEF-ers" are loads of fun, great for kicks. | |||
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Pac-Nor would be willing to make 12Ga Barrels in any length we want and simply cut them down for stub length add ons. I have no experience with adding additional rifled sections and have some concerns about mismatched rifling etc. and what effect that would have on accuracy. Yes, you could bore out the NEF barrel and solder in a stubb while doing your best to allign the new rifling, but the rifling will be different unless we can get Pac-Nor to match the H&R rifling? Assuming I wanted more barrel length, I'd be more inclined to go along with Ed'd idea and add a 10 inch smooth bore section with a bigger and longer brake built in. Personally. I think carefully playing with powders could get you to 2000 fps with the existing configuration. Trust me, your recoil tolerance may self limit how fast you want to drive a bullet in the NEF. Adding more barrel length gives you more velocity but makes the gun less handy for hunting. More weight helps with recoil but again is a PIA in the field. I long ago settled on the less weight, 24-26 inch barrel recipe and a mental attitude that I will just deal with the recoil at any level for the one to two maybe three shots I'll ever take at game. Guys you just have to try this thing with a brake and a 1085gr bullet with 220-230gr of powder. I think you'll quickly agree with me. Maybe we can squeek some more out of this thing but your gonna be a hurtin buckaroo! If you want more its stronger action time and much much more money!-Rob Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers to do incredibly stupid things- AH (1941)- Harry Reid (aka Smeagle) 2012 Nothing Up my sleeves but never without a plan and never ever without a surprise! | |||
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Will be very interesting to get some chrono data on H50BMG powder with brass and lead slugs from 1000 to 1400 grains. These are Double-Foster and Triple-Foster Darwins, 1/7-pound and 1/5-pound, 7-bore and 5-bore payloads respectively, but with much more effective "conical" beer kegs instead of mere round balls.  Until a proper muzzle brake is on the NEF-er, a 25-pound bag of lead shot between me and the "F-er!" will make do.  | |||
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Just for kicks, some recoil calculations: Mossberg 835 with no extra weight added (empty butt stock): 7.75# with rifled-bore 3.5" slug barrel 1.25# for my scope and rings 9.0# with scope on cantilever-mounted barrel 1401-grain Darwin slug 65-grain powder charge, neglect weight of wads 1010 fps Recoil Energy: 104.4 ft-lbs Recoil Velocity: 26.6 fps This is very similar to my top "comfort" load in a 10.75# 500A2, with 570-grainer at 2400 fps using 110-grain powder charge: RE = 104.9 ft-lbs RV = 25.0 fps I am sure the NEF-er loads with H50BMG will be able to exceed my "comfort" level, to reach new levels of exhilarating shock therapy. Before therapy: After therapy: Some chrono data matched with the powder charge for Rob's NEF-er with 1085-grainer ... indeed will be very interesting. | |||
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A 32" barrel like the NEF BC's would make the NEF about the same length as a bolt gun with a 26" barrel....my BC is 47 1/4" long including the Limbsaver pad...about 1" longer than my 24" 416 Taylor with brake and unbraked 26" 338-06. No rifling matching is required. Simply use any CM NEF donor barrel...cut it off just in front of the lug at the end of the largest diameter and bore, ream to a diameter roughly splitting the OD of the donor barrel and ID of the 12 ga chamber, leaving approx 0.100" thick walls on each piece. Then turn the new barrels chamber end down to leave enough gap for Brownells Force 44 solder to flow well...0.001" or so...and the length of the stubb receiver leaving a few thou for headspace fitting. Chamber to 12ga 3.5" to 3.85" after headspacing the donor receiver/barrel. You essentially end up with a short monoblock and a full length rifled and chambered barrel. The "monoblock" would be about 3" long, and you could have any length barrel you wanted to pay for. There are several threads at Graybeard on "stubbing", and as I said I did a 17 FB using a 17 HMR barrel and a 6mmBR last year, using a 17" piece of Douglas barrel that was originally my first 6mm-248. I threaded those "monoblocks" and barrels 20 TPI, and I would guess you could do the same using a finer thread like 28 to 32 TPI instead of using a sweat solder joint. A threaded joint should give you almost the same strength as a sweat joint...all the pressure is transverse anyway...basically...and it doesn't take too meat much to contain 20-25 Kpsi. I'm waiting to see what PacNor will charge for a 28-30" barrel. I don't see any need for something longer than 30"-32" except for trying to get all the velocity you could possibly wring out of it on the bench...Recoil and rifle weight will definitely be the limiting factors as far as field use is concerned. My 45-100 BC weighs 13 lbs and is just about all the weight I want to tote around...although a couple more lbs wouldn't make much difference...and it soaks up the recoild generated by 500-550 grain bullets at velocities in the 2250fs plus (Lott range) fairly well...although a thousand grain plus slug is a different kind of beasty altogether.  I like Ed's idea of screwing on a section of smoothbore/muzzle brake to the muzzle end and definitely the easiest way to go to add length and a bit of weight. I have a couple of designs in mind I might try out over time. And 18.50mm/0.7283" should be just right with a bit of jusicious 400 grit polishing for the bore, 8" for the length, out of 1.375" 4140 CM and turned to a nice distinctive and indicative shape.  Rob...my SB2-980 will be in by Monday if you could PM or post your address I will get the barrel of to you the same day. Thanks | |||
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Foobar- Sorry, I didnt understand what you meant by Stubbing. Of course the monoblock approach is something I'm quite familiar with. I thought you were trying to utilize the original NEF barrel. I am going to make a 12GaFH double as soon as i can find a Browning BSS as a donor using the monoblock approach.-Rob Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers to do incredibly stupid things- AH (1941)- Harry Reid (aka Smeagle) 2012 Nothing Up my sleeves but never without a plan and never ever without a surprise! | |||
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Yeah...terminology...this is the first forum that talked about it as a "monoblock"...in all the others it was stubbing...I figured you were very familiar with the concept from reading you and Ed going back and forth with the Zabala. I think someone did an over/under on Graybeard or was talking about it, or maybe it was on this site. It is an interesting concept...when I hit a big jackpot I will get a little more interested in it.   | |||
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Thats what I'm aiming for, around the 4000+f/s, but as stable and accurate as possible as well. Its all due the the firearms act of 1973 and the weapons act of 1999 here in Australia. It makes it very difficult to obtain high powered rifles, but 12G's are easy to obtain. Therefor turn a 12G into a, erhhummm, high powered 12G rifle, still 100% legal If I can get accurate shots out to the 400-600m mk from a 12G, eat ya heart out Mr Plod! So with that in mind, if I keep the projy to about 300-350grn's it should be doable and still hit like an express train. HA! I should call it the .729 Express.   | |||
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Let's see if Rob gets innundated with NEF Ultra Slug barrels for reaming and braking. No FFL required for shipping the separate barrel from me to Rob and back to me, at least until Jan. 20, 2009?  The 12GaFH shotgun could be the most versatile gun imaginable, considering projectiles like Gibs is talking about, along with the dart-stabilized projies on one end of the spectrum ... and Triple Foster Darwins on the other end. Hope Henry22LR is doing well. | |||
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Thought I saw him scouting around here a little while ago... | |||
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https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/...=115105879#115105879 Scouting for Mauser Scout Scope mounts? Preoccupied with Spanish Mausers I see. Sounds healthy to me. | |||
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Gibs- look at the subsonic .45 thread for some pics of an aluminum carrier 12 ga bullet I made. Fill that sucker with lead and you should be around 350grs. Certainly adjustable based on the dimensions of the interior hole and quite inherently stable. You should be able to do 300-600m quite impressively at a Mv of around 4000fps. Guys- chambering and muzzel brake on thge NEF take 4hrs work at the AR special price of $75/hr. Send me your barrels!-Rob Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers to do incredibly stupid things- AH (1941)- Harry Reid (aka Smeagle) 2012 Nothing Up my sleeves but never without a plan and never ever without a surprise! | |||
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Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers to do incredibly stupid things- AH (1941)- Harry Reid (aka Smeagle) 2012 Nothing Up my sleeves but never without a plan and never ever without a surprise! | |||
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That is a great deal! How bout a "Hell Hound" round for faster ballistics and tollerable recoil? say 750 grain solid... the same weight as a 50 bmg round but make it pointy with a .45" meplat? Release the Hounds!!! I am going to work on the "Hell hound" drawing. 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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I got a 300gr Federal sabot slug to 3900 in the Savage and about 3400 in NEF using our long case.Rob's idea of the add on barrel having a little extra for his internal brake design is easy way to do it all. Measuring nef at muzzle it is 1.065" od.....so you could put on a 1.1875" diameter extension with 1.0625" 16 pitch thread about 1-1.5" long. Internal bore .7285-7295". If 10" long use last two inches for internal brake setup.And it wouldn't have to be high alloy just easy to ream and machine good carbon steel.Ed MZEE WA SIKU | |||
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Hmm, I wonder if I can do something with this: Teflon It is resistant to practically every chemical known to man and has a surface as slippery as ice on ice to which no substance will adhere. Tetron will operate continuously at 260°C in harsh conditions for long periods. It will not degrade when exposed to long term sunlight. Alloys and Fillers – As the need for more demanding uses emerge, Tetron PTFE can be customised by the addition of fillers to create PTFE compounds with enhanced physical properties to suit particular mechanical applications outside the scope of virgin PTFE. Advantages: Virgin Tetron PTFE material • Unaffected by almost all chemicals • Continuous use at high temperatures • Slippery non-stick surface • Outstanding dielectric properties Advantages: Tetron PTFE compounds • Improved resistance to cold flow or creep • Reduction in Wear and Friction • Improved dimensional stability • Increased stiffness and surface hardness I was thinking about using this to make my own sabots, I'm not overly impressed with the 1's from BPI. With a teflon hand made sabot I can custom make it to any sized round. Looking at their tube product, link below. Teflon Tube | |||
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"Hell Hound" bullet proposal. Could be loaded backwards for extreme meplat/boat tail  577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Sorry ment the ROD not tube, same page tho. | |||
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boom stick, Maybe you will inspire Macifej to show us some idea of what his 1000-grain .729-caliber brass FN looks like: Hell Shark? | |||
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Inspiration available upon delivery... | |||
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Boom stick...that looks like the Dixie Tusker only 150 gr heavier...and you're stealing my 1000 gr MAMMOTH TUSKER and 1500 gr CARCARODON KILLER of similar design   before I get the mould made. Man...those BossHogs in Aussyland are TOUGH...won't let you have ANY fun. We gotta watch the "clintonclones" and "BradyBunch" now in office or we will be next inline for a skinning. | |||
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750, 1,000, 1400... Collect them all! It would be great to see the 1,000 grain "Devilfish". Is Macifej being coy??? 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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I was thinking brass solid but lead would be pretty versatile in this shape considering velocity and hardness factors. Never saw a Dixie tusker... Oh yeah... the six sections behind the conical nose measuring .5" are 83 thou a piece... the "Boat tail" crimp grooves and bands all the same width. The important thing is the 750 grain weight and general design... dimensions may needed to be tweaked to get it just right. 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Found a 1.5" diameter x 3" long cylinder of aluminum that is knurled on one end (.625" wide band of knurling) and is anodized black all over. The hole coming out the knurled end is about .529" diameter and smoothbore. The hole is threaded in the other end, for about half of the cylinder length, a coarse female thread that has minor diameter about .530". I could get this bored to about .750" (very conventional, common sized bore hole) from end to end and have the plain end threaded to 1"-24tpi. The knurled end would be at the crown of a brake made of aluminum. 3/16" holes in the midsection. If Rob's internal brake is .025" overbored from groove diameter of .729" (.729" + .025" = .754"), and can handle sabots and wads, then surely my little aluminum brake at .750" throughout will also? My lead slugs will be .730" and that is just .020" smaller than the smoothbore "brake." This would be screw-on-off interchangeable with the stainless steel Vais Brake that is 4" long with the sabot-no-no expansion chamber. What do the guru's think of a chunky, stubby, ported, .750" smoothbore, screw-on, muzzle brake made of aluminum? If it clogs with a wad or sabot and cracks up ... maybe I should wear a "shootaway helmet" for test firing? I picked up this aluminum "muzzle weight" for free from a friendly gundealer. Only one he had left from an odds-and-ends acquistion. This might serve as an easily machined model for a similar steel smoothbore add-on brake. Ed is talking a longer add-on that is very near groove diameter/bullet diameter, but smoothbored, and a long segment of that would continue to burn powder and add velocity for most of its length, ported only near muzzle eh? | |||
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OK found a pic of the tusker. 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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RIP - you're killing too many brain cells there...I'll send you a photo of a PROVEN brake designed specifically for saboted projectiles. I have a piece of equipment that will make them reasonably cost effectively...needs to be 1.25" or smaller O.D.... | |||
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Look at page one of this .PDF Needs to be made on a machine with a C,Y, & B axis as well as subspindle... Page 1 | |||
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Jah, yer killin' me too! Bubba brakes are fun! I don't think this was designed for shotgun wads! A 12GaFH load might rip that contraption right off the end of the APC cannon. What is that little thing a Bradley?  | |||
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Home Depot has what you're lookin' for then in the plumbing department... Some schedule 40 PVC and a tube of DAP!!! | |||
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Now you are just being a smartass. Come on, you can do better than that! Is the internal bore diameter versus projectile diameter of the sabot brake by ATK a secret, or an unknown, like the general appearance of your .729/1000-grain brass boolit? | |||
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Shit if I know... Call em up and order a gun then you can measure the brake in the comfort of your living room...  Seriously - look at the brake carefully...no abrubt internal contours, no front baffle - an open design...everything is shaped to maximize the APFSDS projectile function...( at 5000 + fps ) You "Bubbas" could save yourselves some grief by studying activities of pre-eminent players in the "gun" business.. You have a copy of the .729 x 1000 bullet drawing so now I suppose you want the actual bullet.....details details... | |||
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And the APFSDS sabot is made of long slabs of aluminum that bridge the gills as the long projectile (longer than the brake?) slides through, and they have no chance to pop off before they exit the muzzle? I still say a stubby 12GaFH sabot, shotcup, or wad might rip that thing off the bearrel of an NEF!  Ah ha! Is that permission to post a drawing of the mystery Hell Shark? | |||
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I doubt the actual lead Darwin itself would destroy that brake evn in its scaled for NEF size. No posting of drawings anymore unless they're your design. ( too many eyes here ) You'll have the actual slug shortly and can post away... | |||
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Of course not! A lead or brass Darwin and a case full of slow powder, has no wad,cup,sabot, will work in any brake! Of course you can't get rid of the bullet-weight-induced recoil with any brake either. That is where the hydraulic shock absorbers come in. | |||
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