quote:

Originally posted by hubel458:
Shouldn't do the hopped up loads on the Topper
as it has the SB1 frame, you need the 12ga
Ultra Slug Gun on the SB2 alloy frame.
The Model/Part number will have SB2 in it.
And they come with scope rail. They have 3"
chambers and a smith can lengthen the
chambers to 3.5" very easy.Ed

So all that would need to be done on a H&R ultra slug would be get the chamber reamed? How hot of loads could that accept?

How hard is it to make the ammo? It would seem that it requires quite a bit of machining. From the threading the cases, to making the rims. Is the bmg case profile correct to fit the chamber or does it require some shaping dies?

Is it totally beyond the realm of possibility that I could use a hand tap to thread the case ends and assemble the ammo without any custom dies or other expensive equipment?

Making the rim pieces is great problem.CNC machine is best
Turning off old rim and threading stub isn't easy either, as
the hand die has a taper and it is hard to get threads fully
formed before die bottoms out. I did a couple that way and it took
3 days. Then the case has to be fireformed, IE, expanded out
nearly straight to fit chamber. A bmg case has quite
a bit of taper plus necked down. When formed to chamber
that shape all disapears......I have some 3.5" brass cases with
shotgun primers coming to test from Rocky Mtn Cartridge.
A lot of guys asked me to, as they have 3.5" chambers and want to
shoot plastic and brass and use same shotgun primers.

Some 8GA FH testing- using IMR 4759, 770 gr slug,
top load of 140 gr, got 2500 fps......
Over 10,000 ft lbs..Cases extract easy.
The plastic in 8ga case is twice as thick as
in 12ga cases. Tried 4227 and case is too large
diameter for dependable ignition.So it's
old dependable 4759..Ed

Here is picture of Enfield 8GA FH. You can see plastic case
in the port. Box of cases behind, 770 gr and 1050 gr
slugs in front with the 8ga wadcups I use.
Left two slugs are 1050 gr made from 3 oz kiln slugs.
I rounded nose and put in hollow base. Also the
cards and fiber wads used. Slugs are hollowbase, as
it is smooth bore barrel. Ed

Ed,

I'm thinking about alternative ways to add the rims. In the Manual of Cartridge Conversions, it discusses the fact that you can add rims by sweating a base onto a cartridge tube. This is usually applied to antique/obsolete cartridges in the book.

Taking this one step further, what would stop you from using an existing 12 gauge base, and either press-fitting it onto a BMG brass that was properly prepared to fit it? *OR* sweating the base onto the BMG case? Either way, you would need to trim the existing rim.

The advantage of this idea is that you would be able to use the existing primer pocket on the 12ga base.


I have also read an article from a UK website that talked about "crimping" a base onto a cartridge. The idea seems fairly basic - turn the rim of the cartridge down with a taper, and use an extra-thick brass "button" with a recessed hole in the middle. The button is pressed onto the rim and the brass flows over the tapered edge, making a mechanical joint. The button is also thinned out some, and is thinned as necessary to the final shape.

I don't know if the press-fit "button" is going to gain anything except eliminate the need to machine a thread onto the cartridge, at the expense of requiring a bearing press to apply the necessary force for the "crimp".

The press-fit of the existing 12ga bases would be a real boon to the supply chain because you would be able to eliminate threads.


My 12GFH project is on hold due to the vacation budget this year... hopefully by Christmas or tax time next year

Heating a bmg case base will weaken it,
so it would be good only low pressures.
The swaging idea might work.. need big
factory type hydraulic press.. Better yet
just get them made by RMC for 8 bucks
each with shotgun primers and good for
35,000 psi.I've got some coming to test
with shotgun primers and test with fast rifle
powders I was able to get primers to ignite
in plastic cases. I think I can get 600 gr
up to 2500 in RMC case with 4227. That is easiest way.I got 600 gr up to 2100 in 3.5"
plastic in NEF.... Ed

Rocky Mountain would make a batch of 12GAFH brass at only $8 a piece? Considering I doubt I could stand to shoot more than 2-3 at a sitting it is perfect.

I may just need to buy that H&R shotgun after all. After the rechambering it will still fire regular commercial ammo right?

George- -Yes after chamberis lengthened
it will fire any thing shorter. The cases I'm getting from them to test is 8 bucks and
you figure 25-30 reloads not bad at
all and if you keep pressures 20k they
should load 50. Get the 12ga Ultra slug gun
with thick barrel. little extra wt in butt
and you can get your dose of recoil.Ed

You absolutely do not ever want to attempt to solder a rim or belt onto any case with an operating pressure of 65KPSI. Moreover, the main reason we used .50BMG cases was to specifically avoid 12 ga primer pockets which I suspect will let go well below 65KPSI. The .50BMG primer also is far more reliable for igniting 300grs of powder than any 12Ga primer. Remember, the rim also has to be strong enough to stand reloading too. No press fit or swaged rim I tried stayed on during reloading. The strongest and safest solution was the threaded on rim. I might be willing to make some cases and heads for much less than $8 if there was enough demand.-Rob

The material alone at my price would be abot $3.00 per case. You'll need some pretty fancy tooling as well. I gues you like doing charity work eh Rob?!?!

Turning the brass and rims is not difficult. Once I got the setup right it was well under 2 minutes for a complete set, one threaded case and one screw on rim. This was with brass but going to stainless wouldn't add any significant machine time.
Rob, If you want I can sent you the collet set for the brass. I'll walk you thru it if needed but I bet you can figure it out. I may even have already sent you the programs. John

Macifej- What fancy tooling are you thinking of? I have done this many times before I had cNC capability. Even nmanually it took only a few minutes per case once I figured it out.
Fritz- I'd love the collets and you name the price . Irrespective I'dlike you to talk me through your approach. BTW I have the SL-10, mini mill and Tl-1 all working fantastically now. I'm having a ball.-Rob

For starters you'll need a very rigid boring bar and ideally you'd want a sub-spindle to do the primer pocket and rim. How long a case are you thinking about??

Mac-- They are talking about taking rim off
of bmg and threading stub, then screwing on a premade rim. Or a brass piece like I did
and machine it to 12ga rim and base specs.
Like the pic below showing case threadded and
premade rims ready to go on. The is no change
or machining to primer pocket.

Rob if you build a bunch, different guys from about 40 forums that want a some to work with. We need both kinds, the ones you can do
from bmg cases for guys doing them in guns
with strong firing pins/ hammers...And we need
the ones tha RMC is making for guys with firing pins/hammers strong enough for shotgun primers
in lengthened chamber shotguns. And guys using lengthened chamber shotguns will go lower pressures and RMCs 30,000 psi cases will do.
Nice thing about ones we make from bmg is
heavy strong guns can make use of the strength in the bmg case.Ed

Sorry guys! I was thinking about how we make new cases from 12 foot bar stock.

Not paying attention as usual.

Rob, I can lend them out to you but I would want em back as I need to keep myself in rims. Once you see how I did it you can duplicat the setup for under a hundred bucks out of the MSC catalogue.

I'll bet you're having a ball with your new toys. That SL-10 is a handy machine for most gunsmithing work (not to mention bullet making with the bar loader) and the mini mill is plenty for most jobs as well. BTW does that have a 4th axis on it. I know I'm spoiled having the Haas SL-10, 20, 30 and VF-4s and three bridgeports machine centers for mill work. It's nice to finally have the time to use them for fun and not income. Retirement is great.
Pm or email me which address you want em shipped to and I get it on the way with the programs on a floppy. John

Rob-John-That will be nice getting extra cases
available for guys wanting to do a 12GA FH
in the Savage or NEF.

In picture of the 8ga bolt action you can see the
ring I put on front of bolt to support large diameter
8ga casehead. It is suported against thrust by the
front lugs, and total bolt thrust is supported by rear
lugs and have taken the heavy loads ok.. Ed

Here is picture of the 12ga jacketed
hollowpoint with plastic tip I put in it.
I put it in with glue gun in a few seconds
and profiled with trim blade.Very streamlined
and should work great for 300 yards. And still
expand very well on deer. Ed

quote:

Originally posted by hubel458:
Here is picture of the 12ga jacketed
hollowpoint with plastic tip I put in it.
I put it in with glue gun in a few seconds
and profiled with trim blade.Very streamlined
and should work great for 300 yards. And still
expand very well on deer. Ed

Expansion??? Why on earth would that be necessary with that monster
Talk about being lazy - gut the thing with a knife for Pete's sake!

Rob thanks for clarifying that. Your reasoning makes perfect sense to me!


I had asked about using the H&R ultra slug on a different forum but their server crashed and I lost the response ... so I'm going to re-ask the questions here if you don't mind:

- Does the heavy barrel come as an option on that rifle? If it does not, do I need to go hunt down a heavy barrel elsewhere?

- Echoing Georgewelds' question - how heavy of a round can I go? Am I "limited" to 600 grains, or could the 12-FH go up to 1000 grains?

- Any recommendations for load recipes?


Thanks!
- Jerry

Count me in! (BMG-12ga brass)...Hello again Ed

hcpookie, The heavy barrel is standard on the Ultra slug hunter, which is built on the 10 gauge frame. If you have a 10 already, they can be fitted by H&R (now with better rifling), but no real heavy barrel for the 12 platform. They are making a "heavier" one now, but not the same. On the down side, they only use 1:35 twist, which is not very good for real heavy rounds. They work OK. with the Dixie .730-730, but I wouldn't go any heavier.

My new toy is the T/C Pro Hunter with 28" barrel and 1:28 twist. The frame is good for 30,000psi or so, and they use an alloy barrel of superior quality (including locking mechanism). It far out-classes the H&R, but you could buy 3 USH's for the price of one PH! The 28" barrel is nice, and although I haven't loaded it up to it's potential, at factory weight, it is pure, unadulterated, crowmagnum man a$$ woopin', painfully brutal to shoot with hubel's Savage 3.5" loads with heavy bullets...just in case you were wondering (I have a story about that one:-)

If you are looking for really heavy bullets, a guy on shotgunworld.com is making 1143 grain slugs. Hope that helped.

12ga Ultra comes with heavy barrel.it is on the SB2
alloy heatreated frame. Any NEF 12ga rifled slug gun
that doesn't come with heavy barrel is a regular
SB1 frame. And there are a lot of them around.
I have used Greg's hard 870 gr lead slugs ok with
1:35 twist. To go real heavy slugs a faster twist would
be better. I've shot 1100 gr from Savage at 2500+, brass case.
From NEF brass case, 600gr at 2500. With a 1000 gr in NEF,
brass case about 1800. if you get a Savage and put on heavy
barrel you can do more....3.5" plastic cases 600gr
2000+ in NEF, and should do 1000gr about 14-1500.
I think relative to plastic case performance if you want
heavy, going with the 870 is best.

Extremist. What speed have you got in the TC with 3.5"
plastic cases, with what slug weights?Ed

With Plastics, using Alliant Steel with Lightfield 1 1/16oz to about 2300 (case sticks) and the 1 3/8oz over 2100 (case sticks). I used the RMC brass and Dixie 730's over 4227 until I'm sure they got over 2000fps, but my chrono is broken (your recipie). The factory weight is around 7 lbs. but I've never weighed it. I'm ordering a pressure testing unit and chrono from RSI, so I'll be able to post more later. Works been keeping me busy so I haven't done much testing lately. We'll see when I get the new equipment.

I was wondering how the Deerslayer III might be adapted to the 12 GA From Hell?



It's a 3" chamber right now but I'd like to get my hands on one and see what can be done to feed longer cases.

I'll do my best to answer this one, but Ed would know more.

The issue with the Deerslayer is in the lock-up. It uses a standard "Push-up", single sided tang locking mechanism. It is similar to an 870 Remington, or most pump except Benelli Nova, and cannot take more then the standard Magnum (13,500 psi) pressures. I'm reasonably sure they will do fine up to around 15,000, but SAAMI rates them for less. The barrel they use is great, better then most any other, but you can't change the breach. It is possible to rechamber to 3.5" and load singles only, but it is very unlikely you will be able to do anything to make the action cycle 'em.

As an alternative, you can get an 870 Express Mag in 3.5", which happens to have the same length receiver as the 3" version (very nice). and have Tar-Hunt install their custom barrel to it. This makes it perminent, much like the Deerslayer, but for less money and can utilize 3.5" shells. Still not any better for pressure, but with the added powder capacity, you can load 'em plenty stout. With carefull practices you can get well over 5,000 fpe. They also use a heavier barrel (non-fluted) which helps with recoil. Just my thoughts.

Ok, maybe a better candidate would be the Bennelli Super Nova pump? It has a two-lug rotary bolt that locks into a steel barrel extension. And it chambers 3.5 inch magnums already. Getting closer to doable?

That sounds like a good idea. Not sure what they make the bolt head out of, but you could get one custom machined out of high-grade tool steel (a trick they do to AR-15 for more strength) and modify the barrel extension to allow more contact. I read about someone finding a way to do that already. Heavy rifled barrel for slugs and still keep the factory one for shotshells. And it would look good with the larger receiver of the Nova. I'm sure it would be an interesting project but a one-of-a-kind gun. I wonder if you could contact Benelli and ask what the failure point of the action is. They had to have had it tested until destruction, and I don't believe they would withold that information. It might tell you how much stronger their action is then something like the 870 or 835. Let us know what you find.

I think the Nova is tested to over 40,000
psi in 12ga. If true it will handle any
load we got in plastic as well as brass
loads we did in the Savage.With it locking
bolt and barrels as one the rest of the
action has little strain on it.Ed.

Another challenge will getting the weight up enough to shoot comfortably. But a slide action 12 ga From Hell would be a hoot.

Wow! Thaks Ed. What did you find on increasing the locking area of the bolt recesses?

I know with the standard Nova, they made a 14oz mercury recoil reducer and mount that could be simply screwed inside the stock, under the butt pad. I did it with my wifes M1 and it ballanced out VERY nicely. The Super Nova has the ComfortTec stock, so it would be much more difficult fitting one in. You could just throw lead in it. On the other hand, you can keep all the weight in the barrel. It would be front heavy, but that's where it's needed most.

Not sure if this is a dumb idea or not... what is the buckshot capacity?

I,ve found no info on that, but did remember
readind of testin to 2800 atmosperes,
which multiplied by 14.4 gices over 40k
psi. Our top plastic loads were 15-16k psi.
Only limit really on plastic is if they will
extract. Same way for the NEF and Savage with
plastic. With brass, top regular loads you
could use in Nova due to recoil, would be
about 30k psi and brass case takes 5k of
that at least.Anytime now I should get the
3.5" cases from RMC to test, and then we will
know how high vel and still extract, as
I will test in NEF which if it extracts there
it wil lextract in bolt, pump, double,
etc, easier.Ed

I'll pick up a rifled Super Nova and we can see what we can do!

On Fri May 2 8pm on the Science Channel ,they will have
an article about the heavy barrel cannons that shoot
the brass cases for bomb disposal.They are the same as
our 12GA FH case,when resized in my dies and are shown
in this thread a couple months back in picture.
It will show them using them for bomb disposal. Ed

Ed, How has the 1043gr slugs worked out for you? How fast have you gotten 'em out of your Savage and what powder? Working up a load in my Encore and can't wait to test it in some wet newspaper.

I used a 1050 gr solid brass slug in Savage, regular load
was 315 gr W760, in long brass case, big primer,
got over 2400. 45,000 psi loads.

Never tried the brass slugs in NEF.

The 870 gr hard lead in NEF got 1600 with
3.5" plastic using 90 gr 4227.Ed

Testing 8GA FH in Enfield, 1050 gr slug in wad cup, 120 gr
of 4759, over 2000 fps. Cases extract easy. Hardly any
base cup expansion.About .001" ..Ed

Here is picture of a section plastic 8ga
case, showing the heavy construction.
You can see the double thick base cup. Ed

Here is picture of the bolt setup for the 8ga
Enfield we did.Also comparison to a Mauser
12ga shotgun bolt conversion, from which
I got the concept. Ed

How much energy is the 8GAFH capable of?

With a plastic case in Enfield 10,000 ft lbs.
I haven't tested a long brass case yet, maybe
will test it sometime.. But it should get a 1050 gr
to 3000 in Enfield.Ed