Maybe we aught to buy a few NEF's and ream em out to 12GaFH and sell a Pkg with cases, loading tools , bullets etc. Wonder how many Pkg's we could sell for $1000.
We just cleared 49000 views. Another week or two and we will be at 50K. There is obviously quite alot of interest.-Rob

Big bore for the Obama laws/recession
Call it the Obama package

quote:

Wonder how many Pkg's we could sell for $1000

Start working on your FFL-7...

Sell the reamed & ready barrel with a reloading package for a G and you'll move a bazillion of them. Packaging and placement are key don't you think..??

Macifej...

Your Pachederm punching .729 bullets loaded in plastic shells would sell IMHO

Actualy "Ammo from Hell" is catchy

Alaskans woud love having some bear stopper 12 Ga. ammo

Could be sold as "Tactical engine block busters" to police agencies.

12 Gauge From Nevada ... 12 Gauge From Hell ... Nevada ... Hell ... Lost Wages, Hell ... Las Vegas, Nevada ... what's the difference? They are the same.

I loaded some more plastic hulls with 1400-grain Darwins, working my way up with Ed Hubel's guidance:

50, 55, 60, 65 grains of IMR-4227, 5 rounds each to chronograph in the Mossberg.

I loaded another dozen 65-grain-charged shells for the starting point in the NEF.

Brass hulls and duplex loads of 15 grains of Blue Dot plus how many grains of H4350 for the RMC 3.5" brass, with 1400-grain Darwin?

Then Rob's brass with 50BMG primer and a full case of H50BMG with Macifej's 1000-grain Brass SHARRC or Rob's 1085-grain Brass "Darwin's Beer Keg."


I gotta go do some deer hunting with the .395 Tatanka and read an ACLS manual this weekend.

Will shoot like hell whenever I can.

quote:

ACLS manual

Academy of Crazy Lunatic Shooters...

I love it. The Obama Package! Ammo from Hell! That really is Catchy! Wack a pachyderm before breakfast and go bird hunting that afternoon with the same gun.
Could be really useful in IRAQ and Afganistan for wacking IED's. Tremors worms etc.
Rip whats your best NEF load to date in brass cases?
BTW- I modded your design so that a 3" case when loaded flat nose foreward will just chamber in a 3.5 inch chambered autoloader.
I'm going to do some chrono work with RL25 and see what it takes to get 1800 fps with a 1085 Darwin. H50BMG may be just a bit too slow. Works fine in the Borchard with 325 gr of the stuff but a 3" case with a Darwin in it will probably only hold 150gr. when seated to 3.5 OAL.-Rob

Taking things to the end progression is to buy a fancy 4 axis CNC and make heavy barreled 12 gauge Hell Shotguns strong enough to take top loads. Skeet to dinosaurs!

If there was a source of loaded ammo from an already established supplier or a soon to be start up one out of a secret location in a Nevada garage why wouldnt you want one of these beasties... unless you are recoil shy.

See what's possible, original Savage 210 action/stock
the one I have our long case in. You can lengthen
magazine in the plastic stock for up to 3.5" RMC brass
cases, also 3.5" plastic cases. And you can open up
bottom of the action to match, and the other things
I did on the port, bolt travel, etc to feed cases.
I did mine with heavy wood stock in singleshot.
Using original plastic stock you weight the hollow butt.
Trigger assembly on these is back to leave space for this.
In picture you see stock original and stock mag longer.
Second picture is a 3.5" brass case and slug overall
length 3.7", in longer magazine. Brett in MN, who did this
first used the regular follower and mag spring ok,
it feeds ok for him. .. Ed

ED- Could ypu pse re post those pictures of your Savage 210 bolt showing the mods you made? Thanks-Rob

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:
Start working on your FFL-7...

Sell the reamed & ready barrel with a reloading package for a G and you'll move a bazillion of them. Packaging and placement are key don't you think..??

IMO, you couldn't be more correct! You get a gun, obscure cartridge and no ammo, dies, nada! You and boom will make an excellent marketing team.
I just hope you don't ingest caffein and sugar at his rate!

Some Savage bolt pics.
Rob you need to look at one close, maybe your
machines can make a thickwall reciever,
with a 1.2 x 16 bbl thread, use heavy barrels, put
Savage bolt/bolt carrier into. Then high pressures
no problem.Ed

Well- 3" chambered NEF/H&R's are only about $250. Dies will be $500 and 20 Cases, Bullets and Rims will be $250. Some lead in the stock and a Reaming are all part of the Pkg. $1000 seems reasonable to me. Damn for $1000 I'd go for it myself in a minute. Could also do loaded rounds I guess for those who dont want to reload
Ed- I have the tools to make just such a receiver and I'm giving it some serious consideration.The issue is bolt action or Hi-wall or Borchardt.-Rob

If you decided to build heavy wall Savage the
parts, bolt, bolt carrier, trigger group,etc
to put in it, from Savage would be about
$250-300. If made to 1.55" od, and 1.25" x 16 bbl thread,
you could use 1.375" to 1.5" dia barrels....
And the raceways for the bolt carrier wouldn't
be through the threads on front like they do now, due to
bigger thread diameter.And to simplify you could
go all round action with recoil plate.
BUT-- falling blocks are neater....Ed

Years ago I made a few Maadi Griffin actions(2") that I modified to work with a Rem 700 trigger. The bolt section is a shell holder thats easily changed to hold a Rimmed case. The front of the action was threaded to take a 1.5X16 thread and locking nut just like the Savage. These worked pretty nicely in .50BMG and the locking lugs were about 3/4" thick as I remember. Shot some helacious loads out of that thing. Not as elegant as a single shot but incredibly strong and simple.
I have made bolt actions before and its really complicated when you start with bar stock rather than a forging. Not easily automatable for a small shop like mine..
The Maadi actions could be automated. In my old age I like to prgm now and just push the cycle start button. I like letting the machines do all the work. A Maadi Griffin action is simply a Lathe Turning and Thread Milling Project. The major issue is you need a stock. I made my own from a blank. This is probably the cheapest action I can think of for the 12GaFH and its also probably way stronger than the Borchardt, -Rob

Rob,
I don't have any brass case 12GaFH loads tested yet. I am still doing the baby steps with Darwins and plastic 3.5" hulls working up to max Hubel recommended IMR-4227.
Recall that I smashed a "Pro Chrono Plus" on my first outing. I must accomplish chronographing of the baby loads first before getting to the duplex brass case loads.
No chrono reading: no good.

I vote for the High wall idea.
That is sleek enough for a 12GaFH lightweight trap gun, and strong enough to build into a heavy elephant rifle too.

RIP- Ok no thumbs up to the Maaadi Griffin idea. I never played with the plastic cases. I assume your using an Over the powder wad type system. Did you try the RMC brass hulls yet? I have a NEF on order and will see what the brass Darwins do in it once its here. In a week or two I'm gonna do some chrono work with the Borchardt to develop some basic loads.-Rob

Rob,
Like I said, I have not done the brass hulls yet, but with the RMC thick walls, they will use the same wads and cards as the plastic hulls.

I have so many wildcats of my own, it is hard to keep all of them purring instead of meowing, especially since I have adopted your kitten, the 12GaFH, into the litter.

Here is the load I have developed from Ed's suggestions, using my 1400-grain 30:1 lead Darwin .730-caliber:



65-grains of IMR-4227 was a suggested max for the Mossberg.
Ed goes higher in the NEF, up to 71 grains for about 1400 fps with the 1400-grain Darwin, IIRC.

I can now try the baby-step loads in the NEF with 3.85" chamber and even lesser pressure than would be obtained in the Mossberg.
The 12GaFH chamber should be like a 1945 Weatherby freebore for the 3.5" plastic hulls.
You can see how I adjusted the nitro cards to fill less space as the powder column increases, using .140" and .070" thick cards.
All loads have 2 of the 1/2" thick fiber wads.

The wad&card column is almost twice as tall as the powder colum.
I press it all in with an RCBS Mini Grand Shotshell press before I drop the Darwin in.
No over-slug clear plastic disc this time, but that is another possible space filler.
This time I just rolled about a quarter inch of the plastic hull mouth down onto the Darwin nose to lock it in.

I have only fired the 50-grain IMR-4227 charge, and it was gentle, but the wad took out the chronograph before I could get a reading on the shiny slugs with a wad swarm too close to the chronograph.

My latest batch of loads have the slugs blackened with a big fat indelible marker.
I will shield the chronograph and have it farther down range for the next go.

I would be happy to rely on chronograph data from you and ED.
I am trying to get my own data still, but have to work and have too many hobbies.

IIRC, Ed said the 65-grain charge of IMR-4227 would do 1300 fps with the 1400-grain Darwin (30-1 lead).

Any corrections, suggestions, criticisms, bright ideas or wise cracks welcome.

Federal case has slightly more room than REM
I used leaving more room for wads so you could
go 3gr more in Mossy(68) and in NEF(74).
And don't need the .070 card spacer
right under slug, just nitro wad, and then that
will allow little more crimp which you do need
to get harder ignition and no misfires.Most
roll crimped 3.5" are from 3.15 to 3.18" ..Ed

Ed,
Thanks. Like I said, I am still on training wheels.
That is indeed the least roll crimp that I thought might work. Will see.
It would be good to not waste paper nitro cards unnecessarily.

Have to go to fold crimp when I get all the bugs worked out.

With the roll crimp you have to whack the hulls down to 3" and skive them for the next loading, or it is not pretty, eh?

After this it is on to brass hulls for me, and I am sure I will learn many more things.

I get new 3" hulls primed for 15 bucks
a 100, use once throw them away or get used 3.5"
hulls 12-13 buck a 100, cut off to 3", prime
and use once and throw away.
By the way I don't use a regular shotgum reloader
for plastic cases, my brass ones have dies, for plastic the MEC
Supersizer and roll crimper in drill press, I knock out primers with rod with case setting in recessed bushing. Same as
with my other cartridges. I prime with a BMG primer post
with the spring loaded sleeve on top of post,
on old Lyman turret press. I prime all my bmg bases cases, and
my shotgun primer cases. The shotgun primer sets in the bmg
post, the 12ga case slides up in 7/8"turret hole, turn turret
over the post, push in primer, Have another hole reamed for
10ga, another bushed for 28 ga, a bmg shellholder screws in
for those cases. etc.Just turn turret and use the post.Ed

RIP/ED- Thanks! My plan is simplier. I'm just going to start with a 1085 brass darwin taper crimped into a 3" brass case filled with 100 grs of H50BMG and Chronograph. The case will probably hold 125 grs. I've fired 325gr in the Borchardt and it went 1900fps or so. This was a very low pressure load. My bet is 1100-1200fps maybe less with 100 grs. The NEF should easily take that load. Dont have quick load on this computer so I cant estimate pressures but the gutometer says well below 25Kpsi. I'll run the calc. tomorrow. I then plan to move to Rl-25 and start with 60 grs and move up carefully. RL-25 gave me the best results with the FL 3.85 12 Ga FH. There a 325 gr load sent a 1000gr bullet to 3100fps.
BTW in a pinch you can use a 3/4 in 5C collet to crimp the case mouth enough to get good bullet tension.. You can buy cheap import collet closers from MSC that work just fine for this purpose and can be bench mounted. -Rob

Rob,
Please, what "best buy" items at

http://www1.mscdirect.com

for 12GaFH collet closer crimper?

(or read the item number off your bench if identifiable there)

RIP - I just got a MSC catalog. Order number is JC09651001. Cost is $189. You'll need to buy a
.750 5c collet too. I know I've seen them way cheaper than that though. This one will index and you really dont really need that.
I also found a .50BMG bullet puller for the ammomaster which also takes a R8 .750 collet will work. I seem to remember CH4D made them. Just stick the case in the collet and twist till it crimps. You might get three little ridges but so what. Bullet tension is quite good.-Rob

Rob,
Thanks for the ideas.
I ordered a non-indexing, cam lever collet fixture and an assortment of collets to play with: 3/8", 1/2", 5/8" and a couple of 3/4" ones ... might be able to use as crimpers on some other cartridges.

RIP there are 5c collets called emergency collets designed to be machined to odd sizes. You could buy some as they are quite cheap and have a local shop or I could do it for you put in a ridge to crimp a case at any point you might choose. Thats the principal of the lee factory crimp dies. The closers cam over easily and produce a ton of leverage on the collet. Works pretty well in reality and has helped me load many odd wildcats in the past.
I use a custom 5c collet closer in my CNC mill to hold the 12GaFH rims for engraving.-Rob

Rob,
I have the collet fixture and some collets.
Have not played with it yet.
The 3/4" collet seems awfully tight for a 12Ga.
OK for your BMG brass? Not for RMC thick wall stuff?

I have two of the 3/4" collets, so maybe one will get enlarged for RMC brass.

Musn't let this thread go off page one of Big Bores.
50K posts is only a start at crashing the server!

Been looking for deer in the wind and rain with no luck today ... hoping for a sunny, chilly day tomorrow ... BTT

look at 5c on ebay... import "indexer" is a POS, but for the going 30-40 delivered
bucks

http://cgi.ebay.com/5C-PRECISION-SPIN-INDEX-FIXTURE-COL...QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


they open plus and minus over nominal

here's you .750
http://cgi.ebay.com/Hardinge-3-4-5C-collet-for-lathe_W0...QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

What others are doing hopping up loads and experimenting.
Brett in MN uses a Mossy 835 12ga smoothbore turkey gun, but
it is backbored 10ga size all the way out to end and has 10ga size
choke, and he uses 12ga AQ 441gr slug with locked on basewad, from
BPI. Using top rib bead sight only he can hit a pail 5 times in a row at
70 yds.Amazing accuracy for overbored barrel. He uses BPI X12X seal
plastic wad, two 1/4" white felt wads, thin card then the AQ slug,
with 65gr of Longshot getting 2200 fps. 3.5" new cases with
roll crimp.......I asked him check it with a scope on it sometime.

NFG from Greybeard and Shotgunworld with pump Mossy and 18.5"
with slug barrel. He gets a 525gr Lyman over 1800 fps with
80gr of 4759/4227 powder. Hard alloy mix Lyman and shot one through
17" of pine. Shown in the pic below it mushroomed to .800" and only
lost 8gr weight. It is a wasp waisted slug that is shot from a 12ga
regular WW12 shotcup. The skirt of the slug collapsed into the underside
of the nose. Many guys say that these are as accurate as most
other stuff used. He used 3" plastic, PGS wad over powder and
WW12 wadcup with slug it. He cuts wadcup petals back to length
of the Lyman.

Ok I am going to get Lymans to test and Longshot to test.
Got to see if the Longshot will get further up in velocity
than Blue Dot. Ed

http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/4,4679.htm


http://www.hr1871.com/Firearms/Shotguns/ultraslug.asp

Less than a buck a case!

Anyone know how stong these cases are?

H&R makes a rifled barrels for 20 as well as a 12 gauge. 20 gauge os .615" 600 NE is .620" so maybe resized 600 bullets.

The 20 and 600 nitro are almost identical so you could do 2.5 and 3" 20 GFH but the 2.5" will cost you 1/20th the price.

Maybe make the 600 Nitro 2.5" "Tropical" or

Ron the gun builder, can you build me a 600 ne or 700 ne from the savage bolt slug gun??? I am looking to a smith to do so? I asked the Mr hubel to get me ome spec to makeone but a year later have yet to recieve anything. I really want to build one of each with no luck please help or get me in the right direction.

Here's a pic of Savage with 700NE in action port.
You have to lengthen port. Did you get 210 yet.
Sorry I lost your info when puter crashed last year.
You will have to get barrels from Pacnor and find
a smith with reamers, and who can thread the barrels.
Best is 1.350-1.375" diameter barrels. They can make any length
you want. Headspace barrel against a shoulder on the
barrel like regular rifles are set up. That why the
bigger barrel to give a shoulder and match action size.
Do the mods to loading port length and bolt stop
that I put on here for 12GA FH. For Modifying stock,
I just put up pic for longer cases in longer magazine.
Here's pic of bottom of action milled back for
longer cases.This milling job was done for cases
3.5" loaded length, and you can see there is room to
go to 4" plus like the mag box in earlier pics. The original
opening in bottom of action is about 2.75" for a crimped
3" plastic case.Ed

Boomie the Magtech cases are real light.
not as strong as plastic cases. ok for regular
shotgun lighter loads, but you notice they
say to use oversize wads as the walls are
much thinner than plastic.When sized to fit
chamber they are big on inside of case. They aren't for
slugs, for if sized down to lock on a 615-.620" dia
slug they'd be real sloppy in regular chamber.
And they are real weak in the head, being ballon headed
the ones I have seen. Now if you get a NEF 20ga 3.5" with
factory Hastings alloy barrel, 3.5" cases from RMC
as a few have done, you have your 600NE..Ed

Thank yo so much Ed!!!!! Now who can do this for me?????

Ron- I could just barely get my cases into the .750 collet as is, which was perfect to squeeze them down enough to get good bullet tension. If the RMC cases are too large to get into a 3/4 collet, just take them to a machine shop and have them bore out the collect with a carbide tool just enough to allow the case to enter. most shops do this all the time so it wont cost much. Alternatively you could open it with a trusty dremel tool and a cylindrical grinding bit. 5c collets are cheap so if you go too far they are easily replacible. I suspect the RMC cases are a little thicker than my .50BMG brass.

Msorenso- I dont think your gonna find too many gunsmiths willing to go the Savage 210 route for you. My suggestion is you really consider the NEF approach and see where we take this thing ultimately.-Rob

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
Ron- I could just barely get my cases into the .750 collet as is, which was perfect to squeeze them down enough to get good bullet tension. If the RMC cases are too large to get into a 3/4 collet, just take them to a machine shop and have them bore out the collect with a carbide tool just enough to allow the case to enter. most shops do this all the time so it wont cost much. Alternatively you could open it with a trusty dremel tool and a cylindrical grinding bit. 5c collets are cheap so if you go too far they are easily replacible. I suspect the RMC cases are a little thicker than my .50BMG brass.
-Rob

And thanks to Ed for the load data.
Ed mentioned the 10-guage bore size of the Mossberg 835: Those must be some very well dart-stabilized 12-gauge slugs that are upsetting enough to keep them from rattling in the 10-gauge bore too much ...

Ron,
what is the NEF approach?? maybe I need to read through the post a little more but this is really gettig discouraging since we are talking about this but if no one can do it what good is it? Thanks matt

I just want to be able to have someone make it I send the money end of story.

Try these guys...they've been known to make 700's.

http://www.hollandandholland.com/