RIP- It will go way faster than that. Ive driven 1000gr bullets over 3100fps in the Borchard with little problems. Did the same with the .700RLG which is just a .50BMG blown out to .700. Time for the 12 Bore to make comeback! -Rob

RIP/ED- 12GaFH rims are now no longer an issue. All automation checked out perfectly and I made a short run of 50 threaded rims yesterday. I get 3.1 rims per inch of 7/8 brass. They now need to be headstamped.
Case threading operation is not directly automatable. It requires human operation to insert and remove each new case from the collet. Good news is it takes only 2 minutes/case. In december its my sons winter job to make a few hundred cases.
RIP- wrote the Darwin pgrm and will make a short Brass run friday.I'm also laying in a supply of 3/4 copper. Had to mod your design a little to accomodate the grooving tool I have and am simply drilling the hollow point. may try a .5 ball mill later.
Otherwise looks good. Will post pics later.

Rob,
I am sure that hollowpoint/cuppoint/base could use some improvement, as well as the bands, if done in a different alloy than lead!
The cast lead-alloy Darwin has a crude beauty to it, but in brass or copper some extra refinements will certainly work.
Whatever works best, glad you are taking the bull by the horns!

Darwin: Lead
Darwin II: Brass
Darwin III: Copper

Evolution!
Survival of the fittest No-Bozo!

Rob,

Put me in for threaded brass and rims when you get ready for a run.

I think I am going to need a different T-handle or some kind of adapter for the PTG reamer extension I got from Midway USA before I knew how big the 12GaFH reamer is:





I also have a .725" pilot for improving smoothbore shotguns, if any of them have thick enough barrels. The .719" pilot was requested for rifled bores.

Dave Kiff said some folks had done something similar to this 12GaFH reamer just to get better patterns from their goose or quail guns.

Dave's administrative assistant corresponded with me by email after I talked to them initially by telephone.

She had a Freudian slip and her salutation to me by email was:

"Hell Ron,"

Oops, she dropped an "o."
She had a good laugh, she said, when my reply copied that back to her.

With the proper "boring bar" or tap wrench for shotgun reamer, found at Brownell's, I can turn an NEF/H&R ~Ultra Slug~ into a 12GaFH in 1/2 hour.

That time also includes stamping the finished gun. It may look like hell, but that is appropriate, eh?

Think I ought to use some sort of guide when stamping the next one?
Or do something like this again, on purpose?







The weight of this rig as shown is 11.5 pounds, with no extras like lead or mercury secreted anywhere:



There was just the barest trace of the bluing left at the edge of the chamber when the rim recess was just kissed. Stopped there

Watching the progress of the reamer revealed it cleaned up some superficial junk in the NEF chamber, seen because the inside of the NEF chamber is blued.

The bluing produces a slight surface hardening and you can feel it when you finally get through the last of it at the breech end of the chamber, and the hand-turning gets easier just before getting to the rim recess. Go slowly and carefully at the end of course.

The chamber is amazingly smooth for hand-turning with the equivalent of a tire tool. If need be, it could be polished a wee bit, will see.

We need a 12GaFH in every home!

I voted for McCain-Palin today, since I will be out of town on election day, just 3 days hence.

Pray that God has not forsken us and left us to the satan, Obama.
We will all need a 12GaFH for use in hell if Obama wins. It will make a great survival tool for subsistence use, feeding and defending your family, if the economy really goes to hell under Obummer.

Make your own slugs or fire 3.25 ounces of whatever shot you can find. The rifled bore will produce a pretty good pattern at 40 yards, if you use a 3.25 ounce load.

I am ready for 3.85" starter loads now.

Gonna go clean it up now, still got some cutting oil and tiny chips in the chamber and bore, then stock up on 3.25-ounce loads, just in case hell on earth happens.

I hope to someday find a double 12Ga SXS with enough meat in the barrels to allow rechambering to 12GaFH. Even if just a smoothbore, it might come with Invector chokes that could be replaced with rifled "Paradox" tubes.

The Browning package warns that the Citori won't fit two of their rifled Invectors (see fine print at bottom of package label below).

However a Weatherby Orion OU will accommodate two with a perfect fit:







Maybe a Zabala SXS 10 gauge monobloc with rifled 12 Gauge barrels threaded into it and properly regulated?
Would maybe make a spritely 14 pound 12GaFH DR?

Until then I am limited to 3" Foster and copper sabot loads in my "Orion Paradox" ... soon as I get some express sights on the rib.

Going for 50,000 posts here ... loading some Darwins in 3.5" RMC brass for the NEF ~Ultra Slug~ ... waiting for 3.85" brass ...

Whatever happened to the Sierra MatchKing thread?

Where do I find a falling block suitable for 12 Gauge?

Seems like trap shooters would eat it up. They are always wearing out their break-opens.

A falling block 12 Gauge trap gun would last forever.

Let's have one in stainless with synthetic stocks and switch-barrels:

Option One: light stock and light smoothbore barrel

Option two: heavy buttstock and heavy rifled barrel chambered for 3.85" 12GaFH

Quail hunt or elephant hunt with the same shotgun. Properly accessorized, it would be well balanced between the hands in either option.

RIP- Good work. Now everybody will know how easy it is to do though. I have to admit that I always felt hand reaming was a bad idea, but after having done so many times now, there is no doubt it works just fine. You should take a 3/4 wooden dowel, glue some 400 grit emery cloth to it and polish the chamber with it using an electric drill. Ruins the beautiful mirror finish but it will extract better.
I debugged the Darwin PGM today and have it all worked out. They came out pretty nice looking. Wt is 1085 grs. Will post pics tomorrow. Started with .750 brass rod and the bullets are quite efficient and it takes just 1 minute machine time to knock one out. Flying Brass beer keg!-Rob

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
RIP- Good work. Now everybody will know how easy it is to do though. I have to admit that I always felt hand reaming was a bad idea, but after having done so many times now, there is no doubt it works just fine.

I agree, on an NEF it works great. I will have a lathe-chambered custom 12GaFH one day.

You should take a 3/4 wooden dowel, glue some 400 grit emery cloth to it and polish the chamber with it using an electric drill. Ruins the beautiful mirror finish but it will extract better.

Rob, you are going to make a gunsmith out of me yet!

I debugged the Darwin PGM today and have it all worked out. They came out pretty nice looking. Wt is 1085 grs. Will post pics tomorrow. Started with .750 brass rod and the bullets are quite efficient and it takes just 1 minute machine time to knock one out. Flying Brass beer keg!-Rob

That is outstanding news! It will have an SD of .292 and should penetrate well, especially at the hyper velocities. It is way better than a .375-caliber/270-grain GSC FN, HI HO GERARD!

The lesser recoil and flatter trajectory of the brass beer keg should add to the versatility and mass appeal of the 12GaFH.

Cast-lead 1400-grain "Darwin" slugs and precision-machined brass 1085-grain "Beerkeg" bullets for the 12GaFH.

What is not to like about that?
Evolving nicely.

Been testing the Encore with the Nef loads. Barrel breech is
one inch same as muzzle, where the NEF is 1.200".
It has dovetails cut out in bottom of the barrel for
the nuts for the forearm screws. ... At the bottom of dove tail
there is only .060" thickness. Before reaming had back one fill
welded as it was where the taper for the forcing cone ended up
with 3.5" chamber. I load it with 10 gr less powder than the NEF
on all different slugs and weights. Like the BPI sabot in 3.5"
plastic in NEF, 437 gr slug, 120gr 4227, 2400 fps, and in Encore
110gr 4227, 2270 fps. In 3.5" RMC brass case, same sabot/slug
in NEF 140gr 4227, 2600+ fps,Encore 130gr 4227, 2500.
The Encore is now 12 lbs, with hollow in butt and recesses in
forearm with lead shot.In pic you see NEF And Encore with RMC
brass cases started in chambers. Ed

Ed,
Sounds like the NEF makes a better 12GaFH than the TC. I knew it after looking at those barrel shanks. I sure didn't know about dovetail cuts in the barrel underneath! Only .060" wall thickness overlying the forcing cone of the 3.5" chamber?

Thanks for the further load data. Saves on chronies.

Is that a barrel-band front sight on your NEF, and a peep rear sight?

I am still waiting for those copper-jacketed .729"/700-ish-grain bullets from Ron in Alabama.
Those pumpkin balls missed Halloween here.

I'll be loading more 3.5" plastic hulls and RMC brass soon, but deer season may interfere with the shooting.

Rip-That .060" is thickness left in barrel
section. If I didn't fill dovetail there would
maybe only .010" at forcing cone. And not to
worry as the pivot block is welded on to breech
same as fill weld. Pivot is welded on NEF too.
MFGs now heat treat barrels and pivots before
welding, so as long as done by expert, like
I had done at a stainless fabricating shop
no problems.The Encore with our loads has lots
of power even in 3" and all the nuts here love
its modern fancy style. The locking mechanism
is real neat, super strong, and I maybe can use
that design to simplify making 4 and 2 bore
actions much easier than falling block with my
primitive shop.The NEF has peep sights and the
front sight is just mounted on top of barrel..Ed

RIP/Folks- Here are some pics of a bunch of Brass 1085gr, .729 "Darwins" I ran off this morning. For a size comparison, the second picture is a flying BEER KEG vs a .375 Nosler Partition. I LIKE EM!-Rob

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
RIP/Folks- Here are some pics of a bunch of Brass 1085gr, .729 "Darwins" I ran off this morning. For a size comparison, the second picture is a flying BEER KEG vs a .375 Nosler Partition. I LIKE EM!-Rob

Can't wait to get to a puter where I can see those. Blocked from work puter.

To the tune of "Rawhide," altogether now:

Loadin' loadin' loadin', keep those Darwins rollin' ...

Bravo!

cant wait to see what can stop these beer keg express boogers.

Also I look forward to seeing the expansion of the copper and different lead alloys at various velocities.

You might need to work on Dinosaur cloning to give the animal a fighting chance

I think the beauty is no expansion is needed. Pre expanded big bore bullets.

AR is great thanks to people like you guys and projects like these

P.S. if you bore out the hollow point lead or brass/copper to say half way or more will these "Dart stabilize" for smooth bores?

Consider them pre expanded 50 cal bullets so 600 grains would be plenty to end to end an animal with that meplat.

PS Roll out the barrel song comes to my mind...
PPS this gives new meaning to double barrel gun

I can see those doggies now!
Very cool!

Is the standard smoothbore shotgun barrel .729" or .725"?

If I can't find a Borchardt or such action I may have to commision a 12GaFH sxs double, a pair of them.

One will be a smoothbore of .729" twin bores with screw-in paradox rifled chokes of .729" groove and .719" bore, and all the other Invector chokes available.

The other will be barreled fully rifled with 1:20" twist and .729"/.719" groove and land.

Might be easier to get a custom made Farquharson.

Who makes a Farkie big enough for 12 Gauge rim?

Why the heck not a Ruger No.1 scaled up 50% for 12 Gauge shotgun?

Even a Jumbo Sharps 1874 would do nicely.

quote:

Why the heck not a Ruger No.1 scaled up 50% for 12 Gauge shotgun?

+1

+2

+1 to RIPS other ideas.

+1 anyone who can get a few of the existing modern 8guage SXS's for experimentation eg Tonolini, Eusebrio Arizaga, Carrero y Astela.

+1 to Ed's break action idea. Especially the 2 guage- 8-9 ounces of 50 cal hardballs would make a hell of a buffalo load, maybe the first one that drops them on the spot. Surprised the well heeled recoil nuts have not asked for one yet. I guess 4 bore is as big as some want to go.

Only dropped in to distribute some pluses.
I don't post much anymore-would last even less time than Macijef under managment's current atmosphere
Bye

quote:

Originally posted by Karl:
+2

+1 to RIPS ideas.

+1 anyone who can get a few of the existing modern 8guage SXS's for experimentation eg Tonolini, Eusebrio Arizaga, Carrero y Astela.

+1 to Ed's break action idea. Especially the 2 guage- 8-9 ounces of 50 cal hardballs would make a hell of a buffalo load, maybe the first one that drops them on the spot. Surprised the well heeled recoil nuts have not asked for one yet. I guess 4 bore is as big as some want to go.

Only dropped in to distribute some pluses.
I don't post much anymore-would last even less time than Macijef under managment's current atmosphere

BOO!!!

See I'm already stirring things up.

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:

quote:

Originally posted by Karl:
+2

+1 to RIPS ideas.

+1 anyone who can get a few of the existing modern 8guage SXS's for experimentation eg Tonolini, Eusebrio Arizaga, Carrero y Astela.

+1 to Ed's break action idea. Especially the 2 guage- 8-9 ounces of 50 cal hardballs would make a hell of a buffalo load, maybe the first one that drops them on the spot. Surprised the well heeled recoil nuts have not asked for one yet. I guess 4 bore is as big as some want to go.

Only dropped in to distribute some pluses.
I don't post much anymore-would last even less time than Macijef under managment's current atmosphere

BOO!!!

MAC! welcome back o banned one

Just dropping by to field a few insults and enlighten the dimbulbs...

You boyz need to actually shoot something with them thar 12GAFH's.

Hey macifej...

your 666 bullets might work in the 16 Gauge From Hell 662 vs 666

https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/4711043/m/686101759

Man Macifej, great to see you are back from purgatory...

Things are a little dull around here lately, everyone is waiting for the PH actions to finally ship. Ed is going to do me up one as a 12GAFH.

Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...

I got a 16GA FH case, shot gun primer, got projectles of normal
16ga weight.,hunting for a gun to lengthen chamber in,
will post pic in few days. It is made from bmg case as per
Boomies suggestion and is 3.5" long. The heft of bullets used
will depend on gun, IE if you want to use 3 oz slugs then
use Mac's 666 as he will have actions heavy enough
to hold barrels heavy enough in his cartridge.I can only build
a few cases as it really is a chore This one in bolt or break action
16ga guns will do 350 to 600gr at fair speed, and chamber will
still fire regular 16ga plastic. If it would take off, call
RMC as he now makes long 12s, 20s, etc.Non of existing 16 ga
guns have real heavy barrels like NEF factory Ultra Slug gun,
so we will load moderate.Ed.

quote:

Originally posted by hubel458:
I got a 16GA FH case, shot gun primer, got projectles of normal
16ga weight.,hunting for a gun to lengthen chamber in,
will post pic in few days. It is made from bmg case as per
Boomies suggestion and is 3.5" long. The heft of bullets used
will depend on gun, IE if you want to use 3 oz slugs then
use Mac's 666 as he will have actions heavy enough
to hold barrels heavy enough in his cartridge.I can only build
a few cases as it really is a chore This one in bolt or break action
16ga guns will do 350 to 600gr at fair speed, and chamber will
still fire regular 16ga plastic. If it would take off, call
RMC as he now makes long 12s, 20s, etc.Non of existing 16 ga
guns have real heavy barrels like NEF factory Ultra Slug gun,
so we will load moderate.Ed.

I can make som proper .662" or .661" slugs for you guys whenever you're ready.

Gang's all here now!

Welcome back Jay, Macifej The Unbanned One, keep those doggies rollin'.

Rich: How is Ed making a .886" rim work in that PH? How many down in the magazine?

Karl: 1/2 pound of 50-caliber lead balls will require some brass balls too, to hunt cape buffalo with, what?
If you have anymore info on big sxs shotguns (10 Gauge and up), please do tell.

BTW, the 12GaFH reamer from Dave Kiff of PT&G works great with either 3.5" RMC brass or 3.85" NohBohzo brass. All the dummies I made up for the previous photo settle fully into the chamber with a pleasing "thunk," assisted only by gravity.

That little NEF ejector ejects the loaded dummies too ... will see how it does after firing in the chamber as it is, before polishing as per Rob's pointer.

I think Rich meant my 700H 3.5" that I
said I will help him set up in PH.
A 12GA FH could be done with reciever work
and extra bearing added in the back.Ed

quote:

Originally posted by hubel458:
I got a 16GA FH case, shot gun primer, got projectles of normal
16ga weight.,hunting for a gun to lengthen chamber in,
will post pic in few days. It is made from bmg case as per
Boomies suggestion and is 3.5" long. The heft of bullets used
will depend on gun, IE if you want to use 3 oz slugs then
use Mac's 666 as he will have actions heavy enough
to hold barrels heavy enough in his cartridge.I can only build
a few cases as it really is a chore This one in bolt or break action
16ga guns will do 350 to 600gr at fair speed, and chamber will
still fire regular 16ga plastic. If it would take off, call
RMC as he now makes long 12s, 20s, etc.Non of existing 16 ga
guns have real heavy barrels like NEF factory Ultra Slug gun,
so we will load moderate.Ed.

Labor of love right

did you thin the rim?

Macifej's rifled 666 barrels on the 16GFH will let it go to full power potential.

PS. Ed... the 16 GFH will work in a PH action right? if the 700 will work the 16GFH should too as well as any 50BMG size action.

So the 16GFH will be the largest GFH to work in a PH action practicaly and if you want a rifled barrel it would need to be a 666. How funny... hell and 666 meet.

This would be a "hell" of a bolt action shotgun!

I can only make a few cases and the gun
that I will test it in will be just smoothbore.
Just test it with smoothbore slugs,4000 ft lbs,
with a gun less than 150 bucks or so.
I can get 16ga smoothbore slugs, 24 for 15 bucks,
good for smoothbore and real accurate. I can't
do barrel and PH to make a 666/16ga, when I'm
trying to promote my 700H 3.25". If I have resources to
buy more barrels, it's the 700s I have ordered,
and am helping others do 700. I only can build
a few cases for one 16ga gun. It takes 5 swages
3 expanders, and 2 annealings. The 16ga rim
still tight fit in PH reciever rails. It would need
some work on feed rails. I thnned rims to match
16ga specs..Ed

Gotcha on the 700

Can the 50BMG headstamp be removed in the rim thinning? maybe take some off both sides or something?

cant wait to see pics of the 12GFH's little brother.

I guess using a 700 barrel makes more sense if going the threaded barrel route on the 16GFH but any way you slice it this is an interesting option.

Here is the deal.. The 16GA FH 3.5" will make a great case, and
guys who want to do it, I can do loads developed for higher
pressures. We just work together and we can do it easy way.
The way to do one is use a Sav 210, get one off Macs 666
barrels, and have RMC do 3.5" cases. Rmc makes 12ga cases
from smooth .718 size all the way up to .735 size,
so they can make cases exact to what is needed.
Like .662" bore(or.666") with case mouth .730" od, 3.5" long.
I have an action that I can switch off my 700H barrel,
put on a 666 barrel, my extractor is already set for
it. Chamber for the case size , set headspace,test heavy/light slugs.
This saves us and the industry the pain of tooling for another
barrel size(use .666") and if the big guys in the industry did a rifled 16ga
they would make the groove diameter bigger than the .662 bore size
anyway, so we already have one. So if someone sends a 666 barrel I'll
do it, test it send it back so you can put it on your 210.
A 210 will hold 40k psi plus loads in 16GA FH, all day. In fact it will
hold more psi and being straight, with my powder choices, it will keep
up with Mac's necked version on bmg case.Ed

quote:

Originally posted by hubel458:
Here is the deal.. The 16GA FH 3.5" will make a great case ...
The way to do one is use a Sav 210, get one off Macs 666
barrels, and have RMC do 3.5" cases ...

Guys,
Mac and I discussed this 16GaFH back when he was offering to start up the .666-caliber "Teufel Jagter" on the necked down 50BMG 3.75". I am sure he has drawings of the straight rimmed .666 wildcat, maybe 4" long in the brass.

I never could interest him in reducing his caliber to .665", and this is what drove me to the 12 Gauge From Hell.

It never happened. No .666 barrels exist.
No interest more than 3 spoken for barrels of 5 needed to start up.

.666 is just a fear inspiring number. That beast won't fly. Amen.

.395 is too, apparently, as my .395 wildcats have gone nowhere, though the barrel source exists, and bullets are available from GSC, Macifej, two sources for bullet moulds, and three different reloading die makers for 4 different .395 wildcats.

.662" (or .665" some specs?) is true 16ga smooth bore, and should be the groove for a rifled 16Ga? Likewise I see .729" most places as smoothbore spec and rifling groove spec for 12ga, but some specs claim .725" for smoothbore 12ga.

Still not much demand for that 16ga slug barrel, as it offers less than 12Ga in performance and little difference from 20Ga in performance.

And 12Ga is just so universal it is no contest.

Better get back to 12ga on this thread.

Gotta agree with RIP. I too just can't get excited about the 16 GaFH. The 12ga is just so much more versatile and universal in its appeal. BTW Melamine ( the pet poison from China) is 66.6% Nitrogen which is the reason they added it intentionally). A factoid I know you will all appreciate!
I also have a complete set of machinist drawings for a Winchester high wall and plan to scale it in CadCAM for the 12GaFH. Once enough big actions are out there, This thing may really take off. I also plan to manufacture a complete set of reloading dies.-Rob

And the only reason I will do what little
I'm able, is to have the info out there and
if no heavy barrels available, tell guys
what they can get the most of, from a 16ga
regular gun. Bolt or break actions.The fact we
have so much done on 12GA FH it is easier.Ed

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
... BTW Melamine ( the pet poison from China) is 66.6% Nitrogen which is the reason they added it intentionally). A factoid I know you will all appreciate!

Yummy! That pet food, milk, and baby formula sure does test high on protein content, even with zero protein content. Something wrong with the test there, and the tested food is food for thought only. No protein, cheap, deadly.

I also have a complete set of machinist drawings for a Winchester high wall and plan to scale it in CadCAM for the 12GaFH. Once enough big actions are out there, This thing may really take off. I also plan to manufacture a complete set of reloading dies.-Rob

Very cool.

Macifej has some .729-caliber/1000-grain SHARRC brass slugs which he had listed at his website.
There is 12 gauge stuff aplenty!

Yes the 12GFH is the best but this is interesting for some and has some merrits. Glad to see you making this a cottage industry Rob

Stick to the 12GA vaients boys. The .666" Teufel is in the deep freeze for a while.

When ar you-ins gonna shoot something with those beasties..??