What do the locking lugs on the 835 look like? Are they stout enough for 30Kpsi loads?-Rob

Mossberg 500s and 835s have one bolt lock
into the barrel extension. Would take 20-22k
in good brass case, guys load them to 15k in
plastic cases.Benellis have a turnbolt in a
carrier that locks into barrel, so does
Win 1200.Ed

quote:

Originally posted by hubel458:
RIP-- A dozen slugs will be enough for
tests to get right load.Ed.

Ed,
I'll cast some Darwins Saturday, can't do it before. Will use Lyman #2 (90/5/5 lead, tin, antimony). That should weigh about 1400 grains and be good for 850 to 1450 fps. I would be happy just to go supersonic, or about 1150 fps.
Hell, I would be happy with lobbing the beer kegs to 100 yards in a rainbow trajectory like a mortar, or just to make them come out of the barrel reliably with +200 fps and no pressure problems.

I suppose I will have to use plastic 3.5" hulls with a roll crimp, and lower velocity until I get some good brass and the capability to reload that properly.

If you would concentrate on plastic hulls for now, that would be appreciated ... if you should decide to undertake this mission.

RIp - I will test in the 3.5" plastic and
brass. RMC is running thick 3.5" brass now
if anyone wants some.. Ed

quote:

Originally posted by hubel458:
RIp - I will test in the 3.5" plastic and
brass. RMC is running thick 3.5" brass now
if anyone wants some.. Ed

Ed,
I have some of that RMC brass on order.
Has any of it ever been delivered to anyone?

I will call and leave a message on the answering machine and email and ask for an estimated delivery date.

I have ordered 20 pieces each of the three different lengths, as well as their reloading kit to experiment with, and have seen nothing yet.

I called Dave Casey.
He has not started making the 3.5" brass, nor any other part of my order ... but he is getting ready to any minute now!

I believe he subscribes to the Japanese business model of "just-in-time inventory,"
especially since his brass cost has gone up to $5/pound, and RMC is a one-man operation.

Well I know he is busy. And ours is next.
Now I just made couple 3.5" small primer
brass cases. Made up from the PROP cases
to run tests with. I bushed to regular shotgun
primers, the same as RMC cases will be.And I will
test your slug with it and in plastic. And will test
RGs slugs, Dixies, etc in the NEF and an Encore
12ga Prohunter we just rounded up. Nef already has long
chamber and will be lengthening chamber on Encore
next couple weeks, after 3" load testing.... Ed

RMC called and will soon start 12ga 3.5"
cases maybe as early as next week,
Anyone wanting some let them or me know.

Also CH4D is making reloading dies for my
585HE next week, anyone interested
contact me..Ed

A 14.5 pound Ulti-Mag. The hollow part of the butt is filled with about 5.5 lbs of lead shot and epoxy, with 4X Sightron in QRW rings. I'll try the plastic hulls with the Darwin in this first. BTW, it balances on the trigger. Loading the magazine with 4 and one up the spout will add about 1.25 pounds if the 5 rounds are "Darwins," and move the balance point to the front of the triggergaurd.

15.75 pounds with ammo.
Adding slip-on pad and a sling will then get it over 16 lbs:

The "dry" weight of this 835 Ulti-mag with slug barrel is 7.75 lbs:

That is the way to weight it, I like the stock.
Is the barrel a original factory rifled
bbl? Is it an alloy barrel? What is barrel
diameter at the muzzle? Ed

Ed,
If you mean what steel alloy is it, I can only say "chromoly." A magnet sticks to it.
Factory barrel. 1.185" shank for 4" cylinder, then tapers to muzzle diameter of .935" at 24" point.
Stouter than a Savage Slug Warrior.

Ports as shown, centered about 3" from the muzzle at 10 O'clock and 2 0'clock.

I have a replacement stock, and can knock 5.5 pounds off the shotgun by merely changing the buttstock.

Casting call at sunrise. Darwin auditions.

That is the best barrel alloy and the
thickness is pretty good also. Have you
shot it yet. You can test it with box of 5
REM Buckhammers to get a feel of 600gr
power at about 1450 -1500 fps.The balance you
have will make the heavier weight easy to handle
and you'll like that weight when you
touch it off.Please leave pics hosted as other
guys on 50 forums will want to see them....Ed

Great stuff riperoonie...

Hope that action/stock juncture holds up.

Thanks boomer.
I just finished filling the butt with epoxy and lead shot last night, didn't want to shoot it until tomorrow.

Ed,
I'll send you a dozen kegs.

If you were referring to the action of the 835, yes it is an alloy other than steel. Are there any shotguns that do not have a steel barrel?

As-cast Darwins, 12 of them, averaging 1401.25 grains each. 2.4 pounds of slugs in an egg carton:



I am still learning with this mould, there are some nicks on the hollowpoint end, but should be good for starting load development. Sometimes the sprue plate flops into the way as the slug drops off the hollowpointer. You have to flip the mould over after you knock open the sprue plate. I will fine tune my technique.

This alloy is as close as I could get to 30:1, and done with 7.5 pounds of chilled lead shot (standard, soft) to 1/2 pound of 50/50 solder (lead/tin).

Diameters of the leading band and final band (each end) are pretty close to .731" but the middle bands vary quite a lot from .725" to .731 " on the few I measured. The two bands in the middle have a tendency to get slightly rounded, don't fill out completely, but they are still bigger than bore rider, will engage the rifling. The leading and trailing driving bands will seal the grooves.

I will go ahead and shoot these as is, but
I am still looking for the sizer.

Maybe I could just cut off a shotgun slug barrel at the chamber end and thread that end to screw into a press.

Then cut the barrel to leave only 1" of rifling.

I would then send it to shootaway to clean it by his miracle rifling erasure rifle cleaning technique. When the rifling becomes a smoothbore in his expert hands, it should be close to .730" and I will be ready to size Darwins. The trick will be getting shootaway to stop at .730".

I really like the looks of that gun and just may have to run out and get one. Here are some pics of my Rims with CNC engraved headstamp for the 12GaFH. There also is a photo of a 3.5"case with aluminum carrier. Should fit and function fine through that 835 but with very reduced loads.!-Rob

Here is the Pic of the 3.5" round. I will be making some 23/4, 3", 3.5" and 3.8" cases tomorrow. Eveything is now automated and they will be ready to go as soon as my license arrives. BTW I can make this bullet design out of Brass or Copper with or without the hollow base. Everyone I've shown it to so far is CRAZY about it! The 12BORE RIDES AGAIN!-Rob

Good work Rob!
Keep us updated on "12GaFH SHOTGUN" component availability.

You will be making some FNs for tubular magazine pump shotguns won't you?

I will stick with plastic 3.5" hulls until I have some good brass.

A source for good FL 3-die reloading set is needed.

I still have two custom die sets for wildcats pending at Redding, but will ask about 12GaFH dies later. Gotta pace myself. I may be rigging some home-made dies by cutting, grinding and polishing on some 50BMG dies ... will study on that.

When I get a .730" or .729" slug sizer I will get some Linotype as you suggested. The harder Linotype slugs will likely be more uniform and prettier. They will be bigger diameter and lighter as-cast in Linotype. A sizer will be a must for Linotype.

Your bullets and RG Henson's bullets, won't need sizing, but I will need to get a real custom shotgun to get the most out of 12GaFh Shotgun components.

Macifej The Banned One, sent me a shock absorber that could be fit into a stock.
Maybe a radical new stock design could incorporate one of these, or maybe two?
I think he needs something bigger for his 2 Bore.





Enidine STH 1.0MX2, hydraulic shock absorber:

It is about 9.5" long, weighs about 2 pounds, has a 1.400" major diameter and is 1.260" diameter on the flats, and has 2.0" travel.
Technical details can be found at:

http://www.enidine.com/pdffiles/StandardIMP.pdf

Is Mac ever going to be let out???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Is Mac ever going to be let out???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

That was my question.

The politically-based banning of “Macifej The Banned One†from these technological discussions has come at a bad time for me.

I’ve been diagnosed with Cushing’s Disease. If you have a brain tumor, this is one of the easiest to treat. But it severely limits my computer time, because of the eye pain involved. I’m expecting surgery later this week. I was in the midst of a user-friendly computer program to enable others to do their own calculations of dart-stability index when my vision went South.

I’m most anxious to see the evolution of the dart-stabilized projectiles, and will certainly try to follow their development as best I can. Restoring Macifej The Banned One would help.

To all:
"Macifej The Great" is gone from our midst. I can say no more. He is sorely missed.

Henry22LR,
May your pituitary tumor be small, your serum cortisol levels return to normal soon, and may your followup MRI be normal.
Get well soon.

RIP, isn't the Ulti-Mag a single lug? I think the Winchester, with it's rotating bolt and 4 lugs, would be better, no?

Win and Benelli Nova are stronger locking but cost more.
But the Mossy will hold anything in 4227 powder loads
that a shotgun will extract ok. 15k in plastic, 20-25k
in good brass.Matbe more. One fellow from MN has
gotten 1 oz slugs using shotgun powder up to 2300 plus
in an 835 and no problems extracting.Ed

I have to agree that on general principals a single locking lug would severely limit the level of power I'd use. With that said, a case full of H50BMG will only go 1500fps with a 1000gr bullet and will generate pretty low pressures. The Win 1200 design should stand more pressure but it would require destructive testing to find out where that limit is and also how many rounds at sub critical levels it could withstand. Remember AR15's with rotary locking systems use show bolt failure following extensive shooting with rounds exceeding 40Kpsi not usually catastophic failure. I've seen a few with incipient lug failure that would still function.
Henry22LR- Darn I'm sorry to hear about your being diagnosed with Cushings disease. Your eyesight is a most precious possession and I hope you find the best care possible.
Just for my education someone pse email me with what happened to Macifej. I didnt think there was anything you could do here that could get you permanently banned. Remember "Assclown" even he never got banned.-Rob

quote:

Originally posted by hubel458:
Win and Benelli Nova are stronger locking but cost more.
But the Mossy will hold anything in 4227 powder loads
that a shotgun will extract ok. 15k in plastic, 20-25k
in good brass.Matbe more. One fellow from MN has
gotten 1 oz slugs using shotgun powder up to 2300 plus
in an 835 and no problems extracting.Ed

Thanks Ed.

.366torque,
The Mossberg 835 has the heaviest (thickest) factory barrel of all the readily available repeater slug guns.

I will use it to start lobbing Darwins at low pressure in 3.5" plastic hulls.

I will rechamber the NEF Ultra Slug (fattest OTC barrel) to 12gaFH 3.85" for the longer loads that won't cycle through the 835 anyway.

I am not looking to hurt anyone.
Be careful, y'all.

Ed,
Darwins are in the mail to the same address you sent that 12GaFh case from.

Rob,
PM sent.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
.366torque,
The Mossberg 835 has the heaviest (thickest) factory barrel of all the readily available repeater slug guns.

I will use it to start lobbing Darwins at low pressure in 3.5" plastic hulls.

I will rechamber the NEF Ultra Slug (fattest OTC barrel) to 12gaFH 3.85" for the longer loads that won't cycle through the 835 anyway.

Fair enough, I had figured, with your pedigree, some reasoning went into it. I just had to know.

quote:

I am not looking to hurt anyone.
Be careful, y'all.

If my post came out like that I apologize.

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
I have to agree that on general principals a single locking lug would severely limit the level of power I'd use. With that said, a case full of H50BMG will only go 1500fps with a 1000gr bullet and will generate pretty low pressures. The Win 1200 design should stand more pressure but it would require destructive testing to find out where that limit is and also how many rounds at sub critical levels it could withstand. Remember AR15's with rotary locking systems use show bolt failure following extensive shooting with rounds exceeding 40Kpsi not usually catastophic failure. I've seen a few with incipient lug failure that would still function.
-Rob

Yep, the quality of steel, etc will decide the strength factors. And low pressure will be easier on the Good Doctor!

RIP

PM sent.

Thanks, Henry. We must revive the dart stabilization thread later and see if "12GaFH SHOTGUN, LLC" will make some dart stabilized slugs for big game hunting and target practice with our shotguns.

I have been practicing roll crimping 1400-grain Darwins into 3.5" plastic hulls. Will be trying them in the 16-pound fully loaded Mossberg first. Wish me luck and that I not go blind.

However, a distraction will be early muzzle loader deer season here this weekend. 2 days in October and a week in December. Modern gun season in November.

This weekend I will be sitting in a tree with a Lyman Mustang Breakaway 50-cal smokepole. If I don't break a leg or my neck it will be fun.

First try for a .730" slug sizing die: Lee Precision

Technical man, Pat, is going to ask Mr. Lee if he can do it on a 1.25" die body, for how many dollars, and get back to me about it.

RIP- Pse dont go blind! Here are some pics of 23/4 and 3" 12 Ga FH cases. When cut down the .50BMG brass is way too thick and has to be bored to .013. No big deal just more machine time and effort. The rims work great though and once bored out I have a simple expander that opens them up to .728 for a tight grip on the bullets.-Rob

Rob- the ones I cut back to 2.5", 2.75",
3", I left sides as they were , because the
12ga chambers were plenty big in the NEF,
1887, couple others. The extra thickness
got them closer to plastic case loaded diameters.
If they weren't loaded too hot sizing was ok.
They do resize harder if expanded a lot.
Even cut back they weren't as thick on the
sides as RMC brass cases.Ed

Rob & Ed,
I too was figuring the standard 12Ga chambers would handle full thickness brass.
Maybe an option of no neck thinning for those of us with sloppy chambers? That will be less work for Rob.

I mailed the "dozen kegs" to Ed yesterday when the Post Office got back from Columbus Day holiday.

Lee Precision says it is a go for .730" bullet sizer on a 1.25"x12tpi die body.
That custom item really ought to become a standard from Lee, IMHO, since there are so many potential slug casters out there.

I will soon be able to properly size Linotype slugs cast from the Darwin mould. They will be a little bigger and lighter, as cast in Linotype than with the 30:1, but a lot harder.

Those cases are cute little honkers, aren't they? Now I finally understand how they are made.

By the way, you guys be real careful with the dart stabilized versions. Unlike the spin-stabilized bullets, these won't try to keep their axis parallel with where it was pointed when it was fired. Instead, they will travel point-first, and never suffer the large atmospheric drag of other bullets, whose axis can become broadside to their direction of travel if fired at a high angle.

Hey Henry! They are beauties! The kind of 12 gauge cases that will last a lifetime if not put through too much hell.

BTW, the 1400-grain Darwin is slightly dart-stabilized when the hollow is at the base, but only dart-stabilized after expansion when fired in the other direction, as a cup point.

I figured out what I was doing wrong with the casting. I am supposed to let it cool for at least 20 seconds after cracking the mould open and dumping the slug.

I was letting it cool for 20 seconds with the hot slug in the mould. Just stupid that day ...
The mould was getting too hot. I will try dumping them quicker and opening the empty mould to cool.

I have always dumped smaller bullets as fast as I could, but got confused because I was thinking 3.28 ounces of molten lead should be given more time to "set" before dumping.

After the mould heats up I need to dump them more quickly. Then wait about a half minute before filling again.

Ed,
I have loaded some of the Darwins, same batch as the dozen kegs I mailed to you, and plan to test fire this weekend:

3.5" New-primed Federal plastic hull
1401.25-grain 30:1 Darwin
50.0 grains of IMR-4227
2 fiber wads (1/2" thick each)
4 Nitro cards (0.070" thick each)
1 clear plastic over-shot disk
roll crimp by laser-guided $99 drill press
Hi-brass base MEC supersized for uniformity.

For the first shot, should I tie that 16-pound Mossberg to a stack of spare tires (or a "Lead Sled") and pull the trigger with a string while I hide behind a tree?

I will try to get a chronograph reading, but I have some muzzleloader deer hunting and clay shooting to do this weekend too.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Ed,
I have loaded some of the Darwins, same batch as the dozen kegs I mailed to you, and plan to test fire this weekend:

3.5" New-primed Federal plastic hull
1401.25-grain 30:1 Darwin
50.0 grains of IMR-4227
2 fiber wads (1/2" thick each)
4 Nitro cards (0.070" thick each)
1 clear plastic over-shot disk
roll crimp by laser-guided $99 drill press
Hi-brass base MEC supersized for uniformity.

For the first shot, should I tie that 16-pound Mossberg to a stack of spare tires (or a "Lead Sled") and pull the trigger with a string while I hide behind a tree?

I will try to get a chronograph reading, but I have some muzzleloader deer hunting and clay shooting to do this weekend too.

Please get it in video...

If it goes wrong Americas funniest home videos could pay off enough to fix it and get you another double rifle to boot.

No video. It would have been very unimpressive.
I'll have to restock the Mossberg back down to 7.75 lbs. for video effect.

At noon break from the treestand, I did pop off two Darwins in the Mossberg, and recoil was disappointingly light.

I will put the scope on and load the magazine full and start zeroing and chronographing tomorrow.

The hi-brass bases of the plastic hulls measured .804" before firing and .0805" after firing in the sloppy chamber. They were sized to uniformity before firing.

Only about 1/2" of that 3.5" case is filled by the 50 grains of IMR-4227. The rest of the case is filled with bullet and wads, and roll crimped.

The slug length (1.375") is longer than the wad column length (about 1.280"). I'm pretty sure the 1400-grain slug is heavier than the wad column too.

I could have sprinkled salt on the tail of a beautiful doe that walked under my tree today. I lusted after her, but I let her go.
Will be looking for her boyfriend at about 5:30 AM.

Go late, go ugly.

At this point I apologize for still guessing, but my impaired vision has kept me from doing the one hour of calculations.

I think a LOT of the recoil comes from all the extra energy required to “torque the bullets up†to the high spin required by our high-twist barrels. This energy of the angular momentum of the slugs is large, and I expect it is a goodly portion of the muzzle energy of the projectile. But we seldom talk of this angular energy, and don’t include it in the muzzle energy discussions, which we get from 1/2mv^2. If it is ever included, I’ve not seen it yet.

The smoothbores aren’t bothered by the extra recoil required to torque the bullets up. And there is no nasty torquing of the smoothbore felt by the shooter as the gun attempts to twist itself loose from the shooter’s grip as it imparts the torque to the bullets.

Surgery tomorrow at about noon, followed by some few days recuperation and I should be able to finally do these calculations and report them.

Hope you got your buck!